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The original post for this episode can now be found [here](https://johnaugust.com/2020/470-dual-dialogue).

**John August:** Hello and welcome. My name is John August.

**Craig Mazin:** Craig Mazin is my name.

**John:** And this is Episode 470 of Scriptnotes, a podcast about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters. Today on the show we’ll look at what happens when two or more characters–

**Craig:** Well, the thing is if you have multiple bits of dialogue then you need to have people–

**John:** — talking at once, the best ways for writers to think about it. And–

**Craig:** — say them simultaneously. But how do you do that–

**John:** — portray it on the page.

**Craig:** — when they’re – oh.

**John:** Plus lots of follow up on delayed movies, mergers, assistant pay, and more. And in our bonus segment for Premium members Craig and I will discuss Halloween.

**Craig:** Ooh, Halloween. I love it.

**John:** Yeah. Do you love Halloween?

**Craig:** I do.

**John:** I don’t love Halloween. So we’ll get into that.

**Craig:** Well, I get why. I know why. [laughs]

**John:** [laughs] You’ll have theories.

**Craig:** Oh yeah.

**John:** All right. So lots of stuff in the news. First off, almost all the movies are delayed or the release dates changed. So we haven’t talked about this for a while but there was a pandemic. I guess there still is a pandemic.

**Craig:** So they say.

**John:** So they say. Some movie theaters are kind of opened. Most movie theaters aren’t really open. Tenet released in the US, sort of. Other movies have gone straight to video.

**Craig:** Yup.

**John:** We’ll put a link in the show notes to an article that looks at some of the big release date changes, but essentially coming through the end of this year all of the Marvel movies got pushed back. Some of the Disney movies are coming out. Some of them are not coming out. Something like Free Guys, December 11. Dune, of course, is December 18. Wonder Woman is December 25.

**Craig:** I don’t think they are. I’ve got to be honest with you. I don’t think they are.

**John:** I don’t know if they are either. I was talking to some people involved with these movies and they said, “Yeah, I think it’s going to come out? Maybe it’s going to be out for like two weeks and—“

**Craig:** I would be shocked. Shocked.

**John:** I’d be surprised, too.

**Craig:** I think that this is going to be a while with these. If they don’t bite the bullet and just say, “We’re going to be charging you $30 to watch this at home,” then they have to wait. They just have to wait. Tenet was the movie that they all watched happen. And then they all looked at each other and said, “Ooh, no, no. We don’t want that.”

I mean, these things are economic propositions that have been well worked out with various formulae. A little bit like gambling where they’ve got it down to somewhat of a science, at least in certain ways. And not having a full theatrical release in the United States is simply untenable if you’re going to attempt to make your money back on some of these big bets. And they are pretty much all really big bets.

**John:** So I think the first question will be Pixar has some movies, Soul and the James Bond movie No Time to Die. Both of them are slated for November 20.

**Craig:** No way.

**John:** Yeah. That will be the first times we see. I mean, it’s not just the pandemic. It’s also it’s coming out of this election. I just don’t have a great sense for what America is going to be like at the end of November.

**Craig:** Normally if the movie theaters are open America is like I’m going to the movies. That’s normally what we’re like. But we’re not. We’re not going to be going to the movies on November 20. I don’t believe that. Unless something remarkable happens. It just doesn’t seem like it makes any sense. And the biggest moviemaking complexes are in the largest population centers. Those are the places that seemingly are most rigid and properly so about following the rules of social distancing. I just don’t see it happening. But, I mean, look, you can keep sliding things around on a calendar all you want. The nice thing is they don’t have to mail prints out anywhere anymore. It’s all beamed in electronically.

**John:** That’s true.

**Craig:** But, nah, and I mean, and the marketing campaigns are flexible as well. So, no, I don’t think so. I would be blown away if we were watching a James Bond movie on November 20.

**John:** Yeah. And I don’t want to sound callous towards movie theaters. Movie theaters are a crucial piece of our infrastructure and they’ve just been completely hosed by what’s happened. And so I want theatrical movies to succeed. I want these things to be possible. I just don’t know that it is possible now.

And just using myself as a barometer, I’m a person who really likes to go to the movies and sees things opening weekend. But if I don’t feel safe going to movie theaters here, pretty well run movie theaters here, I just don’t see it being profitable for everybody.

**Craig:** No. The movie theaters are probably facing an extinction event in terms of the way it has been to this point. The removal of the consent decree and the pandemic have combined to – I don’t know how a large independent theater chain survives this. I really don’t. Maybe they have secret plans that are somehow opaque to me. But it does seem like the large media companies in the United States are sitting back waiting to see what happens with the pandemic ending and waiting to see how attendance works after that, at which point they will swoop in and buy these things at a cheap cost as distressed properties.

**John:** Very, very possible. I mentioned the election, Craig, what is your voting plan?

**Craig:** My voting plan is to receive my ballot in the mail. Fill the ballot out. And then I believe I’m going to be dropping it into a ballot drop box. That’s the last bit of research I have to do is see where that is. I assume it’s going to be at my post office. But it might be elsewhere. I will find out where that is. I will go to it and put my ballot into it. And I will do that on the day I get my ballot.

**John:** That is essentially my plan as well. I actually already got my ballot because the county of Los Angeles still thinks I live in France. And so they sent me this ballot early so it can get all the way to France. So I actually got my ballot. If it becomes a question of whether this is going to be problematic for me to turn it in early because they think I live in France then I will take this to one of the early voting centers and actually vote there as soon as I can do that.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** So that’s the alternative. That’s what I did at the 2018 elections.

**Craig:** Got it.

**John:** So either way I will be voting as soon as I possibly can vote, just because you never know.

**Craig:** Well, I have always been a vote in person guy because I like the experience of voting in person.

**John:** I do, too.

**Craig:** I remember as a kid going into the voting booth with my dad. Back in the day, I don’t know if it was like this where you were in gorgeous Colorado, but in glum Staten Island what we would do is we would go to – it was actually my elementary school’s gymnasium and they had set up these little booths with this sliding curtain. And there was a machine in front of you. To me as a small child the machine seemed enormous. I suspect today it’s not. And it had levers. And you would flip the levers. Clack, clack, clack, clack, clack, clack, clack, clack, clack, clack. You make all your choices and then you would pull this big lever at the bottom from left to right and it would go…and it would register your vote somehow using, I don’t know, some ancient Babbage machine.

And then you would open the curtain and exit. And I just remember thinking that this was very high tech and very exciting.

**John:** Absolutely. So I remember my mom doing that once. And at some very early point voting in Colorado moved to the more sort of freestanding little desk kind of things where you’re poking holes and things, which aren’t nearly as much fun for a kid to see.

**Craig:** No. No. So in California we have the ink dot system, or at least we did, which I thought actually worked very well. You stick your thing in the thing and you flip the pages and you push down. The system now is more automated. It’s a little odd. When I voted in 2018 it was a little strange in that you tap the things on the screen and the thing comes out and then you have to stick the thing back in and then it comes back out. I guess for you to check and make sure.

Anyway, I’m filling my thing out at home. Bring it in. Let’s do this.

**John:** I’m going to fill my thing at home and make sure it gets in early.

**Craig:** Yes.

**John:** But voting day is still a priority this year and sort of every year. Our friends Beth and Travis sort of spearheaded a movement to sort of get the WGA to say, “Hey, shouldn’t voting day be a paid day off for our members?”

**Craig:** Yes. 100 percent. So Beth Schacter worked in television for a long time. She’s currently an EP on Billions. And Travis Donnelly is one of our re-elected, freshly re-elected, directors on the board at the WGA. And they are both absolutely correct. This is something that we do need to encourage. The WGA cannot force showrunners to say, “Go ahead everybody, take the day to vote if you need to.” But we should be encouraging it strongly. And that means that the showrunners then have to turn around to the companies and say, “FYI, I’m doing this, and we’re not going to not pay people and that’s the way it is.”

It is incredibly important. And until we have a national holiday for voting this is going to be something we need to do. So, it’s a great idea. And we should encourage – the WGA should be doing this officially, encouraging the people running shows. And then you and I should just keep doing it and talking to our friends and leading by example in saying let people go vote.

**John:** Agreed. And hopefully WGA saying this and encouraging this will get other unions to be thinking about this. Hopefully this industry can be thinking about this way and other unions down the road can be thinking.

**Craig:** The other unions do not listen to us. And we don’t talk to them, which we know. However, we can take the lead on this.

**John:** However, they do draft off of things we get. So that is a useful thing.

**Craig:** Sometimes they do. It’s true.

**John:** Yeah. I mean, there were no residuals until the WGA got residuals.

**Craig:** That was back in the ‘50s. That is true. That is true. Did you see the latest pandemic – there was this big agreement between the companies and the unions about how to proceed in terms of managing COVID and testing on sets. And again everybody involved accept the WGA. Do not know why. But you know what? That’s something the new board can figure out.

**John:** Yes. So let’s talk about our new board. The WGA elections were held. The results were that all the incumbents were re-elected plus Eric Haywood. So congratulations to the incumbents and to Eric.

**Craig:** Meet the new board. Same as the old board.

**John:** Obviously we’ll put a link in the show notes to the results. I know and work with all these people. I have nothing bad to say about any of them. You have bad things to say about Patric Verrone.

**Craig:** Nothing but bad. Nothing.

**John:** There was a big cliff between Patric Verrone and the next vote-getter after that. So it wasn’t even a close, tight election.

**Craig:** No, no. Patric Verrone happily inhabiting that eighth slot every two years. That’s where he lives. So, I was bummed out. I was bummed out because Daniel Kunka who was the one feature writer running did not make it in. I don’t think any of these people are feature writers. So, Betsy Thomas, Deric Hughes, Ashley Gable, Patti Carr, David Slack, Eric Haywood, Travis Donnelly, Patric Verrone. TV, TV, TV, TV, TV, TV, TV, TV, TV.

**John:** Mm-hmm.

**Craig:** And this is not tenable. It’s just not going to work. And I don’t know what to do about it because the membership is skewed. So we have a large and completely unrepresented minority in our union. And that’s just a recipe for disaster. I don’t know how this is going to continue like this.

**John:** OK. So, as a screenwriter who was just on the board pretty recently. It’s not that we have no representation. Michele Mulroney is a feature writer. Dante Harper is a feature writer. It would be awesome to have more feature writers on there. That’s why were both pushing for Daniel Kunka to be a representative of that.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** Having talked to all the people who are currently on there, I know they are well-versed in feature issues. And I know it is important to them. It is not affecting them directly the way it would affect a feature writer. So, let us just remind the people who are elected there some things that are super, super important for them to understand about feature issues.

Free work abuses is a thing that feature writers encounter that TV writers don’t encounter to nearly the same degree, which is basically being held on a draft and turning it in, basically not being paid because they keep pushing more and more stuff for you to do. And so you are working endlessly on a “draft” whereas a TV writer would have turned a thing in because they’re more on a weekly basis. That is a thing that is so specific to feature writers.

**Craig:** Yeah. I mean, the problem that came out of mini rooms and the stretching of time where writers were getting paid the same amount in television for more and more time of work. The thing that made them crazy and led us to strike threat a couple of times. That’s been the state of affairs, times ten, for feature writers forever. So, if TV writers could just look at it that way. If they could just understand how much worse feature writers have had it in that area that they found so offensive for so long. If the 17 out of 19 people in board meetings could internalize that it would be enormously valuable for the thousands of feature writers that are in this union.

**John:** Yeah. Other things that are evergreen issues for feature writers is late pay. Basically you turn in your draft and it’s late coming. I will say there has been progress on this. Since the time I was on the board there would be more progress now that invoices and contracts are coming through to the guild. There’s already been work on this thing. It has to continue.

Teams. There are teams in TV. There are teams in feature. Teams in features, they’re screwed. You’re splitting a salary between two people. It makes it harder for everybody. So the issues that teams face are only magnified by the other problems in features.

And finally I would just want everyone to be mindful of the very definition of what is a feature film is in question. So if you’re writing a feature for a Disney+ or one of the other streamers let’s make sure we are using the terms of a theatrical feature and not getting dragged down to TV movie of the week. And we just have to be so vigilant that we are really treating these pieces of 110 minute entertainment that feels like a feature film that we’re paying these writers like they are writing feature films because that’s what they are.

**Craig:** Yeah. This is not unrelated to our discussion of a few minutes ago, the fate of theaters. If theaters eventually go away there are still movies. It’s just how we watch them. We don’t necessarily conceive of a massive difference at home. But the contract that we have with the companies dates back to the early days of television and the early days of theatrical exhibition. And that’s what it solidified into. Our contract is ancient. It is old and it is full of archaic language. None of which contemplated the Internet much less streaming and the blurring of features on big or little screens.

So all of that needs to be considered. But it can only be considered if it is a priority. And that means, again, that out of the 19 people in that room you have 16 board members and three officers. Of those 19 people, even though only two of them work in features all of them need to put features first. I don’t know how else to say it. Because all we’ve done is put television first and exclusively put television first for well over a decade. And I’m just going to keep banging this drum. I’m going to be – I’ll be that militant.

**John:** Be that militant. Several of the people I know who are on the board are also starting to do feature work. And I’ve had individual conversations with them about that. So I think as silos get broken down many of these writers will be more aware of what those issues are. It’s also the point in every one of these conversations where I also remind people that we have people who work in comedy and variety and they have it even worse than feature writers do. So, being mindful of those writers also facing challenges.

**Craig:** Sure. They will have to find their own Craig Mazin to bang that drum. I have one drum. One.

**John:** One drum. And he beats it loud.

**Craig:** That’s right.

**John:** Let’s talk about Quibi. So Quibi–

**Craig:** Aw.

**John:** Aw, Quibi. Quibi has short little videos for your phone. So, it won two Emmys this last week. Congratulations Quibi.

**Craig:** Oh. That’s pretty cool. I know that–

**John:** Yeah. It’s won more Emmys than I have. Fewer than Craig.

**Craig:** [laughs] No, Quibi has tied me for Emmys. Kaitlin Olson was nominated for an Emmy for her work on Quibi. I don’t know if she won or not. Was she one of the ones who won? I hope she was.

**John:** I don’t know. I didn’t see who actually won.

**Craig:** I’ll have to look it up.

**John:** So Quibi this last week engaged JPMorgan Chase to help the company review a range of strategic options. I’ll put a link in the show notes to the LA Times article about it. But let’s just talk about Quibi because we didn’t really talk about it when it launched. I had a conversation with Jeffrey Katzenberg, I don’t know, two years ago and there was a show I was going to do with Doug Liman and we just couldn’t make it work out financially or logistically.

**Craig:** At the Quib?

**John:** At the Quib. And I will say that the initial pitch I got from Jeffrey was kind of what the show ended up being and the problems that I sort of heard in the pitch became the real problems that were out there is that while it’s great in theory to have, oh, they’re videos that you watch on your phone, sort of like how you can watch YouTube on your phone. It wasn’t fundamentally compelling because those weren’t the kinds of things I wanted to watch on my phone. I wanted to watch things on my TV and I couldn’t watch things on my TV. I also couldn’t share anything that I thought was great about a show on clips on Twitter or Instagram. It couldn’t go viral because it was all locked down. There were fundamental things that were problematic about it.

**Craig:** Yeah. I mean, I have never understood it. I may be the only writer in America who has not gone in and met with people at Quibi and pitched anything to Quibi. I never understood it. To me, the concept itself sounded like an old person’s thrilling idea of how the Internet could or should work. But we have Quibi. It’s called YouTube. That’s how Quibi functions. Right? If you want short videos to watch on your phone, there’s YouTube.

But what people generally never wanted on YouTube were little mini-series that just played on YouTube. They just didn’t want that. That wasn’t a thing. They didn’t mind it on like a big laptop screen, but like on your phone? Nobody wanted that. And there’s been people who have trying that crap for a decade. It’s not what people want in that format. They just don’t.

**John:** So I’m going to take the position that Quibi in the end was a good thing in that it paid a lot of people a lot of money to make content.

**Craig:** Yup.

**John:** Which is good. It increased employment. It got people to experiment and do new things. So even if it wasn’t a financial success for this company it basically took a bunch of stock market investor money and gave it to writers and creators and actors and other folks. And maybe that’s good.

**Craig:** Well, it gave the money to an executive who then gave it to a lot of writers and actors and folks. And if there’s a lesson here for the money people maybe it’s this. The guy who is famous for writing The Idea is Everything, Jeffrey Katzenberg, is not the guy who comes up with the ideas. He’s just the guy pointing at the concept of an idea and saying isn’t that important. Meaning what Jeffrey Katzenberg was famous for in the ‘90s was writing a memo saying, “Writers are everything. But let’s not pay them well. And also I’ll be in charge.”

Jeffrey Katzenberg, apologies to Mr. Katzenberg, doesn’t write anything. Doesn’t create anything. His big idea was to pay other people to have ideas. You don’t need him for that. What you need are people who come up with big ideas. Go to them. Go to them. You want them to be managed by somebody? I don’t know, hire four million mid-level managers for the same price of one Katzenberg. And his partner was Meg Whitman. She’s the Facebook lady, right?

**John:** Wasn’t she PayPal?

**Craig:** Oh, she was PayPal. She was PayPal and then she also ran for the governor of California at some point. Anyway, who needs them? They don’t do anything. They don’t do anything. I wish to god this capital would understand that. But I think sometimes the people who have billions of dollars only talk to other people that are like them. Oh, well Jeffrey Katzenberg is sort of like us. He’s an executive. And he talks in executive speak. Blech.

They don’t do anything. They don’t. Why?

**John:** There’s a struggle of disintermediation. So basically you’re objecting to the fact that people are giving money to Quibi who is then giving it to the people to actually make the things. And it’s like you should just give the money to the people who make the things. But someone has to build the distribution platform. So Quibi was trying to be that distribution platform the same way a Netflix is. The same way an HBO Max is.

It goes back to our discussion of theaters. You want to own the place where people see the thing because that is ultimately useful and powerful in your gatekeeper function. But I don’t know that it makes sense to – the same way that you don’t see a lot of tech money going into “we’re going to revolutionize movie theaters.” Or you see MoviePass trying to do that and it’s like well that’s a bad idea. Quibi is in many ways the MoviePass of video.

**Craig:** I think it is. And I don’t want to imply that there is no place for people that aren’t writers to run things in Hollywood, because there is. It’s just that most of the people that I work with are employed by a large corporation and their function is their utility in working with writers and filmmakers and directors and actors. They are good at it. So that’s why – at least most of them are good at it that I work with. And so that’s why they’re there.

But when you elevate a noncreative person to a kind of creative guru position then you are asking for trouble. Every time they do it. The Japanese via Sony truly believed that Guber and Peters they were gods of some kind. They knew something. They had cracked the code. And so if you’ve never read Hit and Run, which is a fantastic book about Sony’s purchase of Columbia Pictures you should. It’s amazing. And it really is just a story of how they got fooled by two guys who basically were just, you know, guys. One of whom may not even be literate. I mean, so I’ve heard. I’m not saying that in any actionable way. I’ve just heard that. It’s probably not true.

So this happens. Any time they escalate people like Katzenberg. And I have nothing against Jeffrey Katzenberg.

**John:** No. I think Katzenberg is very smart. And he deserves credit for the many things he has accomplished over the years.

**Craig:** Years.

**John:** And also congratulations you built a giant company–

**Craig:** Well, no. Now that one I’ve got to quibble – I’ve got to Quibi with.

**John:** You’ve got to quibble with Quibi?

**Craig:** A lot of people invested in that and are going to lose their shirts. And while the people–

**John:** I don’t think anyone is going to lose their shirts. I think it was money that was looking for a home.

**Craig:** Well, sure. But some homes are better than others. And these institutional investors, they themselves obviously are insulated from these losses because they’re fat cats. But they’re playing around with other people’s money. And those people ultimately get hurt. So anytime a business crashes of this scale, $2 billion, it’s bad.

**John:** And to stipulate it hasn’t crashed to – you know, $1.75 billion. It hasn’t crashed to nothing. It’s really hard to see how much it’s worth.

**Craig:** And on its way.

**John:** And who to sell it to. One of the interesting things about the Quibi business model which from the initial pitch is that the creators actually get their content back. And so after like seven years it goes back but they can also repackage it after it like two years, which does seem to be a tacit acknowledgment of like it sort of sucks to be working for somebody and have them own your thing for perpetuity.

Like I’m writing this movie for Netflix right now and it’s just it’s only going to be on Netflix. That’s all it’s ever going to be on. If Netflix goes away it gets sold off to somebody at some point.

**Craig:** Yeah. Somebody buys it.

**John:** It is locked away in ways that are frustrating for a filmmaker. So, Quibi was trying to acknowledge that.

**Craig:** Quibi was definitely spending money like a drunken sailor. And that’s the Netflix factor. This is why – I can imagine that pitch of just the only way to compete with Netflix is to out-Netflix Netflix. They’re a drunken sailor. We need to be an even more drunken sailor. And this is all in the short term good for folks who are receiving money for writing. In the long term it’s not good if it destabilizes because of eventually this all comes crashing down. Quibi has come crashing down way faster than I thought it would.

I’m confused by their insistence that this is related to the pandemic. The pandemic seems like it would be a gift from god for Quibi. But I don’t know.

**John:** Yeah. I think they built a user story experience where it was like you’re watching it on the train as you’re headed to work. That’s the ideal use case for it.

**Craig:** No.

**John:** But honestly that’s so New York centric.

**Craig:** No.

**John:** It’s such a view of one way that people live their lives.

**Craig:** Also, I’m sorry, but that’s not what people – in New York if you manage the catch the working wifi in between stations on the subway, yeah, you’re listening to music or you’re playing a game or you’re texting. You’re not watching a Quibi. For god’s sake.

**John:** Yeah. No. One place we can read all of the useful insight and criticism of this is in the trades.

**Craig:** Oh.

**John:** And so the trades are–

**Craig:** You mean the trade? [laughs]

**John:** Exactly. The trades are what we call – originally they were printed newspapers, but Hollywood Reporter, Variety, Deadline. They are the different places that report on our industry. And they’re now all essentially one company. They’re all one trade. So we will link to the Deadline piece on what happened. But essentially through joint ventures they’ve all basically become one thing.

Everything we think of being separate entities are basically one company.

**Craig:** Yes. And one of those companies is MRC which produces content in Hollywood.

**John:** Yeah. Funny that.

**Craig:** So you have a studio, essentially a studio, a financing arm of a studio that is the part owner of all of the major publications analyzing the entertainment industry. And that includes Rolling Stone, the Hollywood Reporter, Variety, Billboard, Vibe, and Music Business Worldwide. That’s all of them. That’s all of them. So, you know, you and I growing up out here in the ‘90s as young screenwriters we knew that there was Coke and Pepsi. There was Variety and there was the Hollywood Reporter. And I remember being astonished at how much they cost. Because back in those days, because it was a bit of a kind of duopoly to get Variety delivered to your office every day, Daily Variety, you had to pay some insane yearly subscription at that time. It was like a thousand dollars. I’m like, what, this is insane.

And now apparently Variety is free as far as I can tell to everybody in the world. And Deadline disrupted everything. And now it’s just all smashed together into one thing. And what happens now–

**John:** And so I don’t know what happens now. So, I mean, it’s worth noting that Deadline was actually – Nikki Finke drove me crazy, but Nikki Finke created Deadline as a separate independent site that was just journalism about the actual industry and became incredibly influential because it was actually just journalism about the industry. And it was gossipy and all the other things we can sort of throw at it, but it was outside the norm. So it does feel like there’s a potential for an outside disruptor to come in here and make the new version of Deadline that is actually independent. So that’s a possible outcome of this.

But I want to talk about the MRC of it all. So MRC is a company that is also tied up with the agencies and sort of the affiliated productions of the agencies in complicated ways. But they make actual TV shows and features. So, Ozark, The Great, The Outsider, The Golden Globe Awards, Fire Fraud, which I think it’s great that they were the people behind that.

**Craig:** Knives Out.

**John:** The Billboard Music Awards. American Music Awards. Knives Out. Baby Driver.

**Craig:** Yup.

**John:** So it’s just so complicated to be the trades who are supposed to be reporting on an industry that you actually are making the things you’re reporting on.

**Craig:** It is. And good journalists will often, you know, encounter this because of these multinational conglomerates. You’re always touching on something. And so they’ll say, “Full disclosure, this publication is owned by the same parent company as blah-blah-blah.” And so you say that out loud and they will say, OK, that they will have independence, which is fine. And I believe them to an extent because they know that if they don’t have independence then the property they just bought will become worthless. Because it will be pointed out and it will be skewered and devalued.

But what is not good is that there is the potential for – it just seems like an obvious potential for consolidation here. So you buy all this stuff and then you sit there and you go, so, um, we have somebody that does the same job at Variety as this other person at Hollywood Reporter. Why don’t we just fire one of them? And actually why don’t we just fire half of these people and just make one thing called the Variety Reporter. And then people will lose their jobs and also you narrow the diversity of voices.

**John:** It’s true.

**Craig:** That’s what worries me.

**John:** It’s the problem of any consolidation and having monopolies to control, or at least an oligopoly. It’s not even an oligopoly anymore. It’s just basically a monopoly. And particularly when it comes to, you know, creative expression and to journalism to only have one source of truth is very bad.

**Craig:** It’s not good. Even about something as frivolous as what Hollywood is doing. You know, I got to say I’ve gone full Bernie Bro on this episode. I’m just like swinging at corporations, Jeffrey Katzenberg for no good reason at all. I don’t even know him. Just throwing bizarre bunches in a wild podcast style. It’s been enjoyable.

**John:** That’s what we do.

**Craig:** Yeah. It’s been enjoyable.

**John:** One of the wild swings we were throwing–

**Craig:** Segue man.

**John:** — months and months ago was about assistant pay.

**Craig:** Oh yeah.

**John:** This last week UTA raised assistant pay across the board.

**Craig:** Excellent.

**John:** Minimum is $22 an hour. Goes to $24 an hour for agency assistants and the agent training program gets up to $26 per hour. This is good. This is progress. And so I just wanted to call out UTA for doing good work here.

**Craig:** That is good.

**John:** And also doing it in a time which is admittedly very difficult for agents and for the industry. It’s hard to say like everything is struggling and so we’re actually going to raise pay. It feels like the right choice and a difficult choice.

**Craig:** Yeah. I agree. And this looks to me I think the new golden standard here. I think that this is better than the Verve or CAA commitment.

**John:** This does feel better. And so the Verve and CAA had other things built in there in terms of like quality of life stuff, but–

**Craig:** Got it.

**John:** But money is money. So let’s focus on that.

**Craig:** Money is money. So this is very good. And I do agree with you that this is a challenging time for the agencies, of course. But if the people at the highest level of these agencies who make an insane amount of money are willing to forgo a little bit of their enormous lucre, because if you say to, you know, whoever – who owns UTA? Jeremy Zimmer or something? I don’t know who owns it, like how that works.

**John:** They’re privately held. They have outside investors. But they’re privately held.

**Craig:** Right. But whoever the biggest shot is there, if you say to that guy, oh, by the way, just because for reasons you’re not going to get paid anything this year. They’ll be fine. They’ll be totally fine. So, like it’s good to maybe hit pause on the money pipe – I’m Bernie Bro’ing again. And give the people who are holding your business up, you know, a chance to survive and flourish. Ooh, I’m telling you, man. I am just swinging the flaming sword of the workers of the world today.

**John:** All right. Let’s do a little bit of follow up here. This is Ezra. He writes in about How Would This Be a Movie.

Ezra: Hi John and Craig. This is a follow up to a listener email from Episode 465 on using the Battle of Blair Mountain on your How Would This Be a Movie segment. My wife and I spent two physically and emotionally taxing years trying to have our first child. After a successful round of IVF we had our first in 2017. This past February we had our second, also through IVF. Science. It works.

As a way to do with all of the feelings I accumulated over that time I began working on a pilot script for a show called Trying, a half-hour comedy about a couple with fertility problems. I thought this was my Chernobyl, but sadly it was my Winds of War. I was a new dad with a time-consuming day job, whilst still working to finish it in March 2020 when AppleTV announced Trying, a half-hour comedy about a couple with fertility problems.

I could get into the differences between the ideas, for instance they’re not actually trying anymore, they’re seeking to adopt. But the underlying lesson remains. I dragged my feet and someone else who had a similar and probably better idea got it made. Can’t say you all didn’t warn me.

So to my fellow listener, it’s not only that other people have the same general idea as you. They can have literally the same idea as you down to the title. For an aspiring writer the struggle of infertility could not have been any more real than to watch someone else get to have the little writing baby I imagined for myself.

This is all to say that I agree very strongly with both of you that no one has a 100 percent claim on an idea or concept, putting aside all that legal stuff about owning ideas. If you had the thought someone else has had it as well. In the best case you are in a race to see who can get theirs over the finish line first. I dragged and my heels and now I need to find another darling to work on. It’s OK. Grappling with infertility gave me a much more nuanced perspective on other people’s successes. Congrats Andy Walton. And what kind of let downs I am actually capable of absorbing.

**Craig:** Wow. Ezra, you’re a grownup.

**John:** Yeah. Listen to grownup Ezra there.

**Craig:** Yeah. What an adult. It’s refreshing to hear an adult speak in an adult fashion about adult things. And, yes, that hurts. I get it. I don’t necessarily know that it’s over-over, because TV shows come and go. And also there’s very different kinds of TV shows that often have very similar premises. I mean, if you had an idea for a show about a group of detectives that use forensics to solve crimes, well, if you heard about another one it wouldn’t stop you. There are 12 on the air.

**John:** Mm-hmm.

**Craig:** There can more than one show. And so one of the things is asking yourself what is it about their show that is inherently different than the way you would have done yours. Is there a different way to swing it around? Can you make it a different kind of couple? What is it inherent to that story that you love? Is there a way to repurpose it and rethink it? But it’s also perfectly fine to let it go and move on. And you’re absolutely right. Any idea that anyone is working on, it’s already in the work somewhere else.

You know what I love about Ezra is that he didn’t do the thing that seemingly 90 percent of ding-a-lings do which is like, “I’m suing.” No. Yes, sometimes people come up with the same idea. And even the title. Trying. It makes sense. That’s pretty much what people call it. Yup, we’re trying. So, yeah, you know, you’re going to be good, Ezra.

**John:** You’re going to be good. I want to go back to our conversation about loglines because it feels like really what it comes down is that the logline for Ezra’s show and the show that’s on Apple right now are the same. They have the same title. But that show by its concept is going to be incredibly execution-dependent.

**Craig:** Yes.

**John:** This is not like a meteor is headed towards the earth. This is relatable humans doing relatable human things. And the general situation, the framing, the premise has an overlap, but that’s really about it. So, the thing that Ezra is writing, it doesn’t just go away because this other show exists. And so Ezra you should finish that thing. It’s probably a great writing sample for you for working on your next thing and could be hired to do other stuff.

I’d pick a different title just so it doesn’t get confused with the thing that’s out there.

**Craig:** Yup.

**John:** But you did great. The reason why I wanted to play this is that so often on the show we’ve talked about like somebody stole my idea. And it just doesn’t happen. People have the same ideas. They have incredibly, specifically similar ideas. And this is an example of that. So thank you for sharing that.

**Craig:** Terrific. Thank you, Ezra, that’s awesome.

**John:** Also, last week we talked about lawyers and I asked our listeners, hey, if you have advice for how you got a lawyer or ways to get a lawyer if you’re an unsigned writer how to do it. People wrote in because we have the best listeners. So do you want to take Susan from LA?

**Craig:** Yeah. Susan from LA says, “Go to IMDb Pro,” I see you’ve got to get that account, “and pull up well-regarded recent indie films or documentaries. Scroll down the crew list until you find legal counsel. Then Google that person and check out their law firm home page. You can also look at Variety/Hollywood Reporter,” well who knows, Varollywood Reporter’s “power lawyer lists, but they’re a bit pricy and will require a larger retainer upfront.”

**John:** Susan’s first idea there is phenomenal.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** And I don’t know why I didn’t think about that. But as I look at–

**Craig:** You’re bad.

**John:** Yeah. I’m bad.

**Craig:** You’re bad.

**John:** As I look at like the attorney who helped me out with The Nines and sort of does independent film like that, it’s exactly their kind of gig. It’s what they do. And reach out to them. They can probably do it for you and they have experience doing this kind of stuff. So that feels like a great place to start.

**Craig:** And a month of IMDb Pro is, what, like $12 or something?

**John:** Oh yeah. That’s fine.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** So you can totally do that. Erin writes, “In my experience legit entertainment lawyers are not asking for money upfront, at least that’s how mine operates. It is for future commission. Granted, my manager referred me, but this is what I’ve anecdotally heard as well. I do my due diligence before paying cash for an option red line. There will certainly be good attorneys willing to do it for free with the idea that they will receive commissions once you start to get paid.”

I disagree with Erin there.

**Craig:** Yeah, no, I don’t think Erin is correct at all.

**John:** I don’t think so.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** And here’s the difference. I think because Erin is coming in here with a manager I think that manager is talking to that attorney and saying like, “Hey, this is a kid who I think is going to do well here. Maybe you do this for free and then you become his lawyer.” That’s not the general case situation.

**Craig:** No. I mean, lawyers in the entertainment business do an enormous amount of work on commission. Your lawyer does. My lawyer does. But that’s based on the notion that they’re negotiating employment contracts or the purchase of literary material. Those are large sales or large employments. Something where someone is coming in and saying, “I need you to look through this option agreement,” which may absolutely turn into nothing – no, that lawyer is almost certainly going to charge you some kind of hourly rate. They would be nuts not to. Because they can certainly say, “And by the way if you’re happy for this and it works out when it’s time to do the employment contract come back. That is done on commission. You don’t have to pay upfront for that at all.”

But, no, I don’t think there’s going to be good attorneys willing to do these option agreements for free. No.

**John:** I agree. I think your first choice of find the person who does this for independent films or just get other recommendations from people in similar situations is going to be better serving you for that first contract which as I recall last week is about like a $1 option agreement and a red-lining.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** That’s not a situation – commission on a $1 – not worth it.

**Craig:** Ten cents. Five cents. Sorry, a nickel.

**John:** Five cents for an attorney. All right let’s get to a craft topic. I want to talk about dual dialogue because this week I’ve been writing scenes that have a lot of dual dialogue in it which is not something I often do. And I want to – we’ve discussed on Episode 370, we talked about simultaneity, basically when two events have to happen in the same time, but dual dialogue is a specific kind of that where people are just overlapping. And we may want the overlap for effect. We may need to hear information from two different sides. There’s a reason why we’re doing. It’s always a choice to do dual dialogue. And let’s talk about when you make that choice and how you might portray that on the page.

**Craig:** It is a little bit of a trap because if you watch movies, particularly certain kinds of movies where it’s very conversational, very dialogue heavy, almost all of it at times will seem like it’s overlapping somewhat. And so there’s a temptation to think this is going to make it realer. If I do dual dialogue it will make things look realer. The problem with dual dialogue is that it is such a heavy-handed instruction to everybody. Everybody is now going oh my god I have to actually – we are talking at the same time over each other very specifically. This isn’t a natural overlapping but a forced overlapping. So you have to be very deliberate, I think, about when you use it. It really comes into play rarely. I must say maybe three or four times in a script it’ll pop up. And even then I feel like I could probably get away with two of them, you know, get rid of two of them or something.

**John:** Yeah. So I think we often confuse and conflate it with people speaking quickly.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** And so I think in a lot of movies that we see and we love we think they’re overlapping, but really they’re actually just speaking quickly. And they’re anticipating their next lines. There’s just not pauses between things. But they literally are not stacked on top of each other. So, we see a tool in Highland or in Final Draft that gives us the ability to dual dialogue and we think like, oh, that must be the way you do it. And I’ll tell you that on the page often that’s not how you do it.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** So some of the choices you might make is as a parenthetical “overlapping,” basically saying like there may be scene description that says all of this is overlapping. Basically don’t wait to clear the other person’s lines before you start talking. That it’s meant to be sort of on top of each other.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** For example, Call Me by Your Name, there’s a sequence in which he’s sitting at the table and the parents and these other visitors are just all talking over each other. And it’s not important what they’re actually saying. It’s the experience of being there listening to that. And so that’s probably just an overlapping because it just doesn’t actually matter what the individual people are saying.

Other cases, you are very specifically trying to get information out there. So, we had Noah Baumbach on for Marriage Story. We had Greta Gerwig on for Little Women. And in those scripts, you can go back to those episodes and look at the PDFs, they’re very specific about where those overlaps are and you are supposed to be hearing what everyone is saying. And the fact that they are overlapping becomes very important. Be thinking about what the actual effect is you’re trying to achieve.

**Craig:** Yeah. But there are those moments where it really is the perfect tool. Like you say, it’s not frequent. I mean, for standard overlapping for casual overlapping you don’t want to do this. It is a heavy-handed instruction to everybody. But, then there are times where somebody is going to try and talk over another person. Arguments, for instance, where someone is going to be talking and the other person starts talking as if to say, “No, you stop talking,” but the first person will not stop talking. Or, situations in comedies sometimes where two people are trying to explain the same thing at once. It is a moment where it is absolutely required that two people are speaking intentionally over each other with knowledge that they’re speaking over each other and neither one of them is going to stop. That’s pretty much the best case use for dual dialogue.

**John:** Yeah. Basically neither one of them is yielding the floor to the other person to speak.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** So even the conversation that you and I are having right now, we are anticipating when I’m going to stop talking and you’re going to start talking. But along the way I might try to shout over you a little bit. I may do an acknowledgment, which I think is a special case we should talk about here, which is the uh-huhs, the yeahs, if you’re doing The Daily, the New York Times podcast, it’s Michael Barbaro’s “Huh.” It’s that signal that you’re still part of it.

**Craig:** Huh.

**John:** So those are all meaningful things. And sometimes you’re going to choose as a writer to actually break up someone’s dialogue with that “huh,” that acknowledgment. But that’s rare. It would also be rare to put that “uh-huh” in a dual dialogue. So you’re going to make choices. Basically I’m saying you may not put every utterance of a person in the dialogue of your script.

**Craig:** And when you are there you are going to find some sort of naturalistic language that comes out. One of the stark differences between play text, from a playwright, and screenplay text from a screenwriter is that the play text is designed to be performed by as many different actors as possible. Whereas the screenwriting text will be performed by one. And unless there’s some remake of the movie 30 years later, it’s one person. So there is going to be a certain tailoring and idiosyncratic adjustment to that single performer as opposed to a play.

So actually I do see dual dialogue frequently when I look at plays, when I read plays. It seems like that gets called out quite a bit because it’s formalized. Whereas in movies not so much. It is a decent tool. It’s very useful for songs, when you’re writing songs in movies, and two people are singing at once. It’s perfectly useful. But I think it’s probably good to ask yourself do I need it. It is not fun to read.

**John:** It’s brutal to read.

**Craig:** I’ll say on the page. Yeah. If you see a page where it’s just strips of dual dialogue your eyelids will get heavy.

**John:** Yeah. Because you have to make the choice of, OK, am I going to read the left hand column and then go back and read the right hand column? It’s a lot of work.

**Craig:** It’s also hard to imagine. And you know we can play one voice in our head at once. We can’t play two. We just can’t.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** So, you know, you’re asking something there. Just use it – when you use it know that it is very intentional, very purposeful. It is a heavy spice, so sprinkle it with restraint.

**John:** All right. Let’s get to a question. Patrick writes in, “I was hoping you could discuss the singular they/them/their pronoun in reference to many non-binary people. I used singular they pronouns in a recent script for a non-binary character. It was a period piece where singular they was never used in dialogue, but it felt like the correct way to identify this seemingly genderless character in action lines. I referred to the character as androgynous in an introductory character description, and aimed to avoid pronoun confusion so it would be clear when the they referred to this character specifically versus multiple characters at once.

“However, I’m still worried that readers may be confused or distracted by the singular they. I want to leave it like it is, but I’m not sure I should. Have you had any experience using singular they in scripts, or reading scripts where others have? Would you advise us to use or not use it? And is a disclaimer necessary?”

**Craig:** Well, there is a natural singular they/them/their usage anyway. It’s not completely foreign to our longstanding use of the English language. When there is a gender – what would you call it – ignorance, I don’t know–

**John:** You just don’t know.

**Craig:** Yeah, I don’t know if this is a man or a woman, so it says the police officers walk in, adjust their guns, I guess that’s plural. But there’s ways where you do use it. I think if it’s a non-binary character I would probably want to call it out early and say I’m going to be using, just for the reader, just let them know I’m going to be using they/them/their because they’re non-binary. And maybe I might capitalize it inside of sentences if I am using a lot of other pluralized they/them/theirs for other people so as to not create confusion. But probably I would just call it out early on and not let…

So it says I refer to the character as androgynous. I would have added and I will be referring to this character, meaning I will be referring to them as they/them/their.

**John:** Yeah. I think Patrick is right to plan for – there’s a difference between the dialogue that we’re hearing as an audience, are we going to get confused by the they/them/theirs which can be a challenge? Because in real life conversations, like we have friends who have a non-binary kid, and the they/them/theirs are–

**Craig:** It’s tricky.

**John:** It can be tricky just because sometimes you don’t know, wait, are they talking about the group? Understanding whether you’re talking about the individual or the group can be tricky with it. That said, we’ve used it in English for centuries. We’ve used this as a singular thing for a long time when we didn’t know what gender to apply to a person that we’re talking about.

So I would say for Patrick if the dialogue and it becomes important to say this person uses they/them/theirs I would call that out just so that it’s not confusing in dialogue. In many cases it may be possible, because you have the luxury of time, you’re not actually speaking this aloud, to find sentence constructions where it just doesn’t become an issue and where you end up using the character’s name rather than a they/them/their. Basically just use the proper noun rather than the pronoun and you may not have this much of a problem.

**Craig:** Yeah. It’s going to be hard to only do that. Because it can kind of get–

**John:** For a supporting character. For a character who only has a certain number of scenes, maybe you’ll be fine.

**Craig:** Sure. You can avoid it. But, yes, you’re right. We have this usage where it’s like the child brought their pet in to show the class. That is a normal usage we have for a singular person with the their. It’s in our minds, so you just have to spell it out for people early on that that’s what you’re doing. And by the way, if people are confused then they’re confused. Because that’s part of the deal is like our pronouns have not caught up necessarily to the way we’re starting to look at people and their gender. So there’s going to be some confusion. And, you know, you can just acknowledge that. Sometimes honesty is the best policy.

You can just say, “If you get confused it’s understandable. That’s kind of how it goes.” And they will try. I think most readers when they see something like that they’ll at least know that you’re acknowledging it. If you don’t acknowledge it then they’re going to think like I don’t know if Patrick understands how confusing this is. If you acknowledge then they’re like, OK, he knows how confusing this is.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** Or they know how confusing it is. I don’t know if Patrick is binary.

**John:** Let’s do one last question here.

**Craig:** All right. Theo asks, “I’m a big fan of the podcast. It’s a phenomenal resource to both learn about screenwriting and to distract myself from screenwriting. I have a question though for John about his #writesprints. They seem straightforward if the purpose of the sprint is to write scenes from an outline. But how do you structure them when the project you’re working on is still in the development phase and you’re doing more brainstorming and character discovery?”

John, can you explain the nature of your tyrannical write sprints to Theo?

**John:** So, with write sprints this is when I sort of declare on Twitter that starting at the top of the hour for the next 60 minutes I’m going to be writing and just writing, no distractions, no nothing else. And then I’ll see in 60 minutes, and if people want to join in and do it that’s great. And this is an idea I took from Jane Espenson who is another former guest who is just phenomenal.

I’m using doing write sprints when I’m in scenes. When I’m doing real scene work or in the case of the Arlo Finch books when I was writing chapters. But I will also use them for outlining phase. Basically if I want to do a solid hour of work and not be distracted that’s the same thing as a write sprint. And so it’s just being purposeful for a period of time about the work I want to be doing. That counts as a write sprint.

If you’re doing an outline, maybe you’re not generating the same number of words, but if you really are figuring out stuff that’s what this is. It’s basically just trying to be single-minded on a project for a period of time.

**Craig:** Yeah. I find sometimes that if I’m in the state of progress that Theo is in that the best version of the write sprint is the write walk, where I take a walk. And I just go, well, I’m going to go walking around thinking about this. And I’m going to turn around and head back when I feel like I’ve achieved something in my mind, some sort of clarity or construction.

I don’t do formal write sprints like you do for actual generating pages. I just mostly wait until I’m disgusted with myself and then I start – but I only write in write sprints. That’s just my natural way of doing it. When it’s time, it happens.

**John:** Yeah. I mean, I’ve just never been a slogger. I’ve never been a like I’m going to sit down for a three-hour session and get stuff done, because I just found that those were not productive to me.

**Craig:** No, like I know what I’m supposed to do. I know where I am. I know who is in it. I know what’s going to happen. I know what they say. Now just do it, stupid. And then eventually I do it. And when I do it I do it. I get lost completely in it and I do it until it’s done. So, that’s basically my day, day after day, every day for the last 25 years. Good lord. Geesh.

**John:** Good lord. All right, it’s time for One Cool Things. My One Cool Thing is an article that Ashley Nicole Black linked to. It’s an article in the New Station with Judith Butler. And she’s a professor, writer, gender theorist. And it was a discussion of trans-exclusionary radical feminism, which I knew about only because JK Rowling was associated with it. Basically JK Rowling just kept saying dumb things. And everyone said like that’s a dumb thing to say. And she would just double down on dumb things.

What I liked about this article was that Judith Butler was just so masterful at being able to sort of cut through the questions. Basically just challenge the premise of the questions. If you’re just curious about like how to handle arguments, or how to sort of deal with controversial topics being thrown at you I thought she just did a very smart job of dismantling what was being thrown her way and presenting it back in a way so that you basically can’t even like hit the ball back. It’s like, oh, crap, I can’t even do that.

So, an example sentence here. She says, “Women should not engage in the form of phobic caricature by which they’ve traditionally been demeaned. And by women I mean all those who identify that way.” And so she can just take some of the arguments being tossed her way and look at them and saying, nope, I’m taking this apart and giving it back to you.

So I just recommend people check that out because it gave me a good education in some of the terms and thinking behind this and also going back 30 years. So, I’ll put a link in the show notes for that.

**Craig:** So far afield from what you just said. My One Cool Thing this week is you and your fellow party members in our Dungeons & Dragons game. You guys made me so proud.

**John:** We did pretty well last week.

**Craig:** You did great. So, one of the things about being a Dungeon Master is you are not in control of anything. You are gently creating situations and then your characters do things and you have to react in an endlessly improvisational way. You have to hold boundaries, but you have to know when to be flexible. You have to know when to be rigid. And the whole point is to create situations that ultimately are fun, not necessarily fun in a kind of I put my videogame on god mode way fun, but fun in a sometimes my heart is pounding a little bit and sometimes there’s danger.

And last week you guys just played beautifully. You were collaborating and you were being creative and you weren’t all seeking individual glory but working as a team. And you defeated a very difficult enemy. And you defeated that enemy I would say handily.

**John:** Yeah. It was surprising. And I was definitely the person who was most nervous going into that encounter. What I will say was galvanizing and this is probably applicable to anybody thinking about storytelling is that this group of protagonists were only able to come together after the death of one of their party members.

**Craig:** Yes.

**John:** And basically it took a death for us to analyze what went wrong and how do we avoid making that same mistake again. And so I feel like looking at those moments of failure and learning from them is such a fundamental thing in both life and in fiction. And I was happy that we were able to do that and sort of go into this next encounter with really not just a plan but – because stuff happens and you sometimes can’t follow that plan. But a set of principles in terms of what we are going to try to do and what are priorities are going to be. And by sticking to those principles and each person rising to do the thing that they are best equipped to do we were able to defeat this really far too challenging of a future for us to be facing.

**Craig:** Yeah. Well, you did it perfectly. And you guys have come a long way. And it makes sense. As you go through these things, just like in regular screenplays and stories, the character gains abilities and talents and insight and then the question is what are you going to do with it. That’s the booby prize of life is insight, as the great Dennis Palumbo says. What are you going to do with it?

And so you get all these powers and then, ooh, like we can polymorph people. And there was a session we had where one of our wizards polymorphed one of the bad guys into a dolphin while in a bar fight, which was smart on the one hand.

**John:** Don’t bring a dolphin to a bar fight.

**Craig:** Yeah, don’t. Because the dolphin doesn’t need to be in water to breathe. And the dolphin can hit people that are five feet away from it. And so it did. And everybody was upset. But I’m like that was a bad choice. You could have made it a lot of other things. And you chose to make it the worst possible water thing.

Well, this time around much smarter and thoughtful and just working things through. Because you’ve grown into your powers, which is exciting, because it’s going to get more and more dangerous as you go. Just like life. But I was so proud of you guys. You did such a good job. It was a joy to DM and I can’t wait to kill more of you later.

**John:** Aw. Nice. Tonight–

**Craig:** Oh, that’s right, tonight. You know what, I probably won’t kill any of you tonight. Not tonight.

**John:** All right. That is our show for this week. So stick around after the credits if you’re a Premium member because we’re going to talk about Halloween. But meanwhile Scriptnotes is produced by Megana Rao. It is edited by Matthew Chilelli. Our outro this week is by Med Dyer. If you have an outro you can send us a link to ask@johnaugust.com. That’s also the place where you can send longer questions. For short questions on Twitter Craig is @clmazin. I am @johnaugust. We have t-shirts and they’re great. Go to Cotton Bureau to find those.

You can find the show notes for this episode and all episodes at johnaugust.com. That’s also where you find the transcripts. You can sign up to become a Premium member at Scriptnotes.net where you get all the back episodes and bonus segments. Craig, thanks for a fun show.

**Craig:** Thank you, John.

[Bonus segment]

**John:** Hey Craig. Halloween is coming up.

**Craig:** Yay.

**John:** It’s always the end of October. Growing up I loved candy so I liked Halloween for that.

**Craig:** Yes.

**John:** But if I’m being honest I was never a big Halloween person. Were you a Halloween person as a kid?

**Craig:** Well, I was. I was. So on Staten Island Halloween had more of an anarchistic feel. So, I was a good kid and my parents were very strict, so I had to put on my stupid costume. Remember the costumes, they were like vinyl? And then you had the plastic mask that you could stick your tongue out of the rectangular little mouth-hole that would then cut your tongue.

**John:** Uh-huh. And it sort of hurt your tongue. And it had the elastic that went to the back.

**Craig:** Bingo.

**John:** And the mask could crack really easily, too.

**Craig:** Oh, absolutely. And the suit, “suit,” was just like a vinyl apron that tied in the back and had a smell on it, like an off-gas and plastic smell that almost certainly took years off of our life. And I would go out with that and my little hallowed out plastic pumpkin candy holder.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** But the other kids, like if you were slightly older, it was shaving cream and eggs. They would throw eggs on everything and they would put shaving cream everywhere. So my memory, my sense memory of Halloween is the smell of Noxzema or whatever that shaving cream was, or Barbasol. Walking around, getting candy. And my sister and I after it was over would sit down in my room, we would dump it all out on the floor, and then we would begin to barter. Because I liked certain things and she liked certain things. And you make the swaps.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** Loved it.

**John:** Bartering is important. And obviously I had an older brother and there’s, of course, the manipulation that happens both as the younger brother and as the older brother.

**Craig:** Of course.

**John:** Now, did you have something growing up where the school district, I think it was the school district, maybe it was the city, they really wanted kids home by a certain point. I think by 8pm they wanted all kids home. Maybe it was it was like 7. It was really early.

**Craig:** This was New York. They were dealing with Son of Sam. They didn’t have time to worry about us.

**John:** So we had a thing where at school we had to fill out this little form with your phone number and then parent volunteers would say this is the goblin calling to make sure you’re home.

**Craig:** Oh god.

**John:** And then it was like a raffle. If you actually were home you could win a pizza party.

**Craig:** Well that feels really actually quite frightening in a Handmaid’s Tale sort of way.

**John:** Goblin calling.

**Craig:** This is the goblin calling to make sure you are home before 8pm when the witches come out.

**John:** So basically they’re going to have a stranger call children at their house.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** That’s really what the whole plan was.

**Craig:** Yeah. This is all backward. But we grew up, you know, John, the kids today don’t get it. We grew up in a time of full-throated panic. Gary Goldman has an amazing – this is my second One Cool Thing, my bonus One Cool Thing. Gary Goldman has an amazing standup special called The Great Depresh about his depression.

**John:** Oh, yeah, I’ve watched it. It’s good.

**Craig:** And Gary Goldman is just a legendarily good standup. And he talks about how in the ‘70s growing up America was inflicted with this notion that children were being snatched off the streets constantly. Some guy went on the news and said 50,000 American kids are being stolen and kidnapped off the streets every year when it turns out actually it was like 200 people. So, everyone went crazy. We lived in a time when we would go to school, we would get milk at school, and there would be some lost child’s face on the milk carton.

Everyone was in a panic, all the time. As he said vans used to be beloved, and now they were objects of fear. So around Halloween there was this additional aspect of the whole point of Halloween is someone is going to put a razorblade in an apple. No one wants the apple. No one wants the apple.

**John:** It never happened. No.

**Craig:** No one wants the apple anyway. Go ahead, put razorblades in the apple. No one will ever get cut. No kid is eating the apple. And also, no, no. That’s not lunatics work.

**John:** But it got to the point where you would take your candy and they would x-ray it at the hospital, which is just absurd.

**Craig:** Insane. Now you’re radiating food. It’s just insane.

**John:** So, Craig, you’re saying things are much, much better now because all we have is QAnon.

**Craig:** Oh god.

**John:** I think there’s a natural progression from this fear of an outsider coming. Antifa is going to poison your kids’ candy.

**Craig:** Antifa and QAnon are the new razorblade and apple of our lives. One quick question. When you – because we grew up at the same time there were probably the same weirdo candies floating around that aren’t much of today. What were some of your favorites, like in terms of the weird ones?

**John:** I was always a Milky Way. Milky Way is go to. If I wanted a candy bar it was a Milky Way. Nothing against Snickers. No one wants a Three Musketeers.

**Craig:** You’re wrong. See, here’s the thing. You’re normcore. You’re so normcore.

**John:** Oh, 100 percent. I’m completely normcore.

**Craig:** Oh my god. You’re so normcore. I was all about the weird ones. I loved the Three Musketeers.

**John:** And the Marathons.

**Craig:** I loved how light it was. Marathon. I was also a fan of those old creepy candies from the ‘50s like the Mary Janes. Loved Mary Janes.

**John:** Wow.

**Craig:** I know. What is it? It’s made of plastic and nuts and dirt and sugar. I don’t know. Delicious.

**John:** A recent episode of The Boys, the second season, show on Amazon, they talk about the island of misfit candy bars. And people who are fans of the Bit-O-Honeys and stuff like that.

**Craig:** I love Bit-O-Honey. Love it. Most of the things that I liked tended to be mostly wax, I think.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** Didn’t like those things that you have to like–

**John:** What was the wax bottles with a sugary thing inside? Who thought that was a good idea?

**Craig:** Those, the wax industry? Honestly the wax manufacturers of America had figured out. Those were called – I can’t remember what they were called. But, yeah, you would bit the top off and then drink the sugar liquid out and be left with just a tasteless thing of wax.

**John:** Wax. Yeah. Good stuff. Or like Wax Lips and other stuff like that.

**Craig:** Wax Lips. And of course the candy cigarettes which were the greatest.

**John:** It’s good stuff.

**Craig:** Teach your kids.

**John:** So this year’s Halloween, I thought Halloween would just get canceled, but then if you think about it it’s like, you know what, kids are already wearing masks. They put a mask over their mask. It’s actually not that dangerous. You’re outdoors. I say let the kids trick or treat.

**Craig:** Well, I think trick or treating has been somewhat canceled or something. I don’t know.

**John:** Over the years or for this year specifically?

**Craig:** No, for this year. I think that they have sort of said maybe don’t do it. I have looked up by the way what those things were called. The wax bottle liquid stuff. They were called Nik-L-Nip Wax Bottles. Nik-L-Nip. I don’t know why it’s called that.

**John:** Wow.

**Craig:** But that’s what they were called. Sounds kind of dirty.

**John:** It does sound dirty. Like some sort of…yeah.

**Craig:** You would bite it and drink it and it’s nasty.

**John:** Yeah. I just don’t know why the wax companies needed to do that. I mean, they said extra wax.

**Craig:** Well, yeah, I think that was probably what it was. Someone was like, “You know, we could take this extra wax and put some sugar in it and morons will drink it.” They were right.

They were right.

**John:** So, Craig, Happy Halloween.

**Craig:** Happy Halloween, John.

 

Links:

* [Movie Releases Pushed](https://twitter.com/ErikDavis/status/1308814242569580544)
* [Black Widow Shifted to Summer 2021](https://deadline.com/2020/09/black-widow-jumps-to-summer-2021-spurring-marvel-pics-release-date-shift-west-side-story-delayed-a-year-soul-stays-theatrical-1234582771/)
* [Quibi Sale](https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2020-09-23/quibi-sale-value-bidders-katzenberg-whitman)
* [All the Trades are Basically One Company](https://deadline.com/2020/09/pmc-mrc-form-publishing-content-venture-that-brings-rolling-stone-thr-billboard-vibe-under-one-roof-1234582626/)
* [UTA Raises Assistant Pay](https://variety.com/2020/film/news/uta-raises-assistant-pay-agency-wide-new-average-hits-24-per-hour-exclusive-1234778549/)
* [WGA Election Results Board of Directors](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/writers-guild-west-unveils-board-of-directors-election-results)
* [Scriptnotes, Ep 465](https://johnaugust.com/2020/scriptnotes-episode-465-the-lackeys-know-what-theyre-doing-transcript)
* [Scriptnotes, Ep 370](https://johnaugust.com/2018/scriptnotes-ep-370-two-things-at-the-same-time-transcript)
* [Judith Butler on the Culture Wars, JK Rowling and Living in “Anti-Intellectual Times”](https://www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times)
* [Get a Scriptnotes T-shirt!](https://cottonbureau.com/people/scriptnotes-podcast)
* [John August](https://twitter.com/johnaugust) on Twitter
* [Craig Mazin](https://twitter.com/clmazin) on Twitter
* [John on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/johnaugust/?hl=en)
* [Outro](http://johnaugust.com/2013/scriptnotes-the-outros) by Med Dyer ([send us yours!](http://johnaugust.com/2014/outros-needed))
* Scriptnotes is produced by Megana Rao and edited by Matthew Chilelli.

Email us at ask@johnaugust.com

You can download the episode [here](http://traffic.libsyn.com/scriptnotes/470standard.mp3).

The original post for this episode can be found [here](https://johnaugust.com/2020/another-word-for-euphemism).

**John August:** Hello and welcome. My name is John August.

**Craig Mazin:** My name is Craig Mazin.

**John:** And this is Episode 467 of Scriptnotes, a podcast about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters. Today on the show we’re going to talk about the words we use when referring to people or groups of people and why those words keep changing. We’ll also discuss single use characters and the WGA elections, plus some listener questions.

**Craig:** And in our bonus segment for Premium members we will tackle one more question – if the standards for breaking into the screenwriting industry are so high why are so many bad movies made? Provocative.

**John:** Provocative question. I think the answer is Chris McQuarrie, but you’ll only know why I say that–

**Craig:** Oh my god. What a shot against Chris.

**John:** If you listen to the bonus segment. Oh, a shocking twist. But first some follow up. Last week on the program we talked about the new management company in town. We were calling it Moxie, but the name is apparently Range Media, so that was all announced officially this week.

**Craig:** OK.

**John:** So, the initial focus as we expected was going to be on film and television talent, which means actors, but the company said Wednesday that they’re also going to have a music division at some point, so that will be another thing. There really aren’t names to be announced yet. Apparently Taron Egerton, Keira Knightly, and Michael Fassbender are some of the folks who left CAA are going to be hanging over there. We’ll see how that works. But it seems like a lot of our assumptions about the kinds of things this management company were going to be doing were accurate and that it’s really – it sounds like they’re going to be focused on the kinds of things we were talking about which is basically A-list talent and getting value out of A-list talent beyond just their ability to act in projects.

**Craig:** Yeah. They’re going to try and milk them for all their worth. It is interesting to see that they’re framing this as some of these people are leaving CAA to head to Range Management, when in fact they don’t have to leave an agency to join a management company, but it is clear that for a lot of these folks who do make quite a bit of money they don’t want to pay more than 10 percent. And in certain circumstances a lot of them are used to – particularly with television actors – are used to paying zero percent. So one of the interesting things about the agency campaign is as it puts pressure on the elimination of talent agency packaging, which was one of the ways that high earning actors paid no commission, now some of those high earning actors are going, “Well where do I go now to pay no commission? Because I don’t like paying commission.”

And so Range Media sprouts up like a mushroom. And I get it. It is strategically a brilliant move. Hats off to them.

**John:** Some of this is the reporting I read, but also just conversations I’ve had with other people this last week. It seems like the vision for what this company, it changed a bit from where it initially started. That the initial conversations were much more about an agency that was like a CAA or a WME, and it became this management company sort of over the course of discussions and time.

And one of the reasons that might be behind that is some of the folks who are going to be joining this company were agents who were leaving these other big agencies and contractually or for other reasons it was problematic for them to join another agency or to start a new agency. But the same stipulations weren’t in place if they were going to be transitioning to becoming managers. And so it sounds like there’s kind of a Jerry Maguire kind of mission statement that sort of got the movement happening. But the actual form of it came a little bit down the road.

**Craig:** I get, I mean, if you have a choice between being handcuffed by regulations and restrictions, or doing whatever the hell you want, probably you’re going to want to do whatever the hell you want. And that’s what management is. It essentially is an unregulated side business where people are “representing” talent, but not allowed to actually procure or negotiate employment for them by law. So, if the agencies aren’t going to put pressure on these management companies to stop negotiating and procuring employment for their clients and I don’t know how they’re going to do that, then I don’t see why you would want to just hang out with the agency versus going to one of these enormous – if the management company can be as large and as octopus like as a CAA or a WME then, yeah, I mean unregulated wild west versus regulated–

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** That’s an easy one.

**John:** Well, and coming along with unregulated is also flexible or the ability to pivot, which sounds like the idea behind this kind of change and pivoted over the course of its inception, but also the money that’s coming into this is kind of more like what we associate with Silicon Valley money. And the thing about these startup companies is they might begin with one goal, but they recognize that, oh, that’s not working so we’re going to pivot towards this. And a management company is probably a little bit more flexible and able to roll with it in ways that a company that was based on we’re going to get X percentage of the money coming into our clients might not be.

**Craig:** Yeah. I mean, the people who are represented by a firm like this are that firm’s products. They are not that firm’s clients. They may be called the clients, but they’re the products. If you’re represented at a talent agency you are a client and the talent agency is supposed to make money off of your work. So you’re not the product, you’re the client. That’s where we really had a huge problem with packaging because it short-circuited that.

But these management companies, they’re not even making a secret of it. They’re saying, “Yeah, they’re going to be products and they’re going to make products and we’re going to own the products that are products they’re making.”

**John:** Well, they’re products/partners. Like we are going to be investing in them.

Well, let’s talk about, it’s a natural segue into talking about the agency campaign, because also this last week WGA East and West members got an update email saying that the guild has had “cordial discussions with the two remaining unsigned agencies,” which are WME and CAA. But that a deal was not imminent. Or to frame it differently you might say that the deal reached with UTA and ICM over this last month was kind of “the deal.”

And so there wasn’t a lot of ground to give. Specifically the email said there’s no plan to push back the sunset on packaging. And they don’t want to go above 20 percent ownership of affiliated production companies.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** Drawing a line in the sand may be a little too strong to say, but basically saying this is where we’re at and don’t expect next week suddenly one of these two agencies is going to sign.

**Craig:** Yeah. Which, I mean, I would assume that that would be the case. I mean, once you have those two agencies locked in and thus those terms locked in for them because those terms would only lock in if there were one other one, OK, well you got the other one. So now there’s UTA and ICM. That’s locked in. That’s it. End of story. I don’t see where there is more wiggle room. And this is a dangerous time for everybody to playing chicken like this, particularly because I think if the Writers Guild has showed one thing it’s that it apparently has a kind of endless tolerance for pain when it comes to this particular area because there are a lot of writers that were represented by CAA and WME who would like to be represented once again by the agents, the specific personal agents they have relationships with and who are waiting, still.

And so as one of them all I can say is I don’t see why the WGA would change anything at this point. And CAA and WME should stop. That’s my opinion. They should just stop. If they want to keep the lawsuits – I guess the lawsuits have to get dropped as part of the deal, right? You can’t sign this deal and also keep the lawsuits going I would imagine.

**John:** I would imagine it would be a challenging thing to do. So definitely we saw UTA stop its lawsuit when it signed the deal. So, that seems like a reasonable thing to do.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** Let’s talk about on the individual writers’ perspective, because you said that as a person who had been represented at CAA you’d like this to end. I guess if you are any person in that situation and you’re waiting for them to sign this email is telling you don’t assume that’s happening tomorrow.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** And don’t assume that they’re on the one yard line and it’s about to get done. We’re saying it’s not done.

**Craig:** Yeah. It was a little bit more. I mean, the letter basically said think about going to somewhere else, because we don’t think it’s going to happen with these guys, or at least that’s a strong possibility that it will never happen with them.

**John:** So a person in this situation would need to make a decision like, OK, am I going to go without an agent? Am I going to just use a manager? Or am I going to go to one of the signed agencies? And if you were at CAA or WME and you wanted to stay at a big agency there’s UTA or there’s ICM, or there’s the possibility that some of these other agents – if you wanted that personal relationship with your former agent there it’s a question of like are those agents going to stay put at CAA or WME if they’re not representing writers? And that’s a big open question.

**Craig:** It is. I don’t know what’s going to happen. The value of my relationship with my agent is more – that is the value. It’s not so much the value between myself and an agency. It’s different for everybody. But when you build a career alongside somebody and they’re in partnership with you and you can look back and point to specific areas and go that was where he made a huge difference for me. That is where he made a huge difference for me, and so on and so on and so on. Then, I mean, look, I’m that kind of a person. If I have a functioning productive relationship with somebody I, you know, I don’t walk away from that easily. I’m a committing kind of person.

How many episodes of this show have we done so far? [laughs]

**John:** [laughs] 476. So yeah.

**Craig:** Yeah. So you called and you’re like, “Do you want to do a podcast?” And I was like OK. 476 episodes later. I mean, I’ve been married for almost 25 years. We’ve been doing this podcast for a long time. And I had my agent for a long time. And so I would like to continue that. And so I’m waiting. But don’t think I haven’t sent emails saying, “Uh, hello. Let’s just wrap this up.”

**John:** As we talk about agency stuff obviously being on the agency negotiating committee I have sort of that perspective. But if you’ll humor me I want to think about this from CAA and WME’s perspective. Because this is harder for me to sort of get into their mindset and maybe you can help me out thinking about this.

**Craig:** Sure.

**John:** So, they’ve got to be thinking what is the cost benefit analysis on their side. Basically what is packaging worth to them this year, next year, five years from now? What is ownership of affiliated production companies worth to us now, two years from now, ten years from now? And basically is it worth it for us to not be able to represent writers because of the upside we think we’re going to get from the way stuff is currently structured?

**Craig:** I don’t that they’re – what you’re asking is what is the rational explanation for their position at this point and I’m not sure there is one. I don’t know if this is a rational position or if this is just at this point about saving face. When you are the first guy to go in there, if you’re UTA or ICM and you can improve the numbers slightly then you can say, “There. That was my ration. I wanted the numbers to be better. I got them to be better. I agreed.”

But if the numbers aren’t going to move, if the needle never moves, then you have a face-saving problem. Now, do I respect face-saving problems? Not particularly. Are they real? Absolutely. Do face-saving problems literally cause wars? Yes. So, one thing, if I were on the committee over there at the WGA I would be sort of sitting there going what can we do to give them a slight face-saving exit without actually giving them anything. Because I agree. At this point there’s no reason to improve the dates on packaging sunsets or the percentage on ownership. Is there some kind of window, is there something that we can do so that there is some sense of face-saving that they can feel like they improved it somewhat and now they can agree to do this?

Come together. Figure out what that is. Let them have some minor victory so that you can climb the rail of victory and end this. That’s what I would be kind of thinking about. But, in order to get there you have to be dealing with somebody that you think you can actually get there with. And I don’t know how that relationship is going. It doesn’t sound like it’s going well.

**John:** Yeah. The other thing I feel like I don’t have real transparency is about the structure of WME and CAA in terms of they are different from the other agencies in the sense of the degree to which there’s outside investment, outside ownership. And so the degree that they may not be able to make some of the decisions themselves the way that closer held agencies could. And so the same investors who are behind the production entity of WME and Endeavor Content, part of their value statement was that they do have this – that they are combined as one thing. And so the people who own them may not be eager to make that deal, too.

So, I would just say I understand that their corporate structure is complicated, but I also don’t know that the WGA is going to be able to solve that problem for them. So, acknowledging it, but not necessarily being able to address it directly.

**Craig:** That may be the thing that we don’t know about. That there’s this hidden thing. And so they will complain and come up with all sorts of reasons when the real reason is they are not able to. And if that’s the case then they should just say so, because if they really aren’t able to ever then at that point a lot of writers do need to make a decision. Right now CAA and WME’s position as far as I can tell is hang on, we’ll get this figured out.

If I were over there in the boardroom of CAA I would be saying to any of them figure it out quickly, and before the end of the year. Because I think if we roll over into another year, into 2021, and this has not been resolved people are going to make moves. I just don’t think anybody – it’s like, OK, you’ve had time. Nothing is changing. If you can’t figure it out between now and the end of the year then people are going to vote with their feet, because it won’t seem realistic anymore.

So, maybe me saying that and then Deadline republishing it as their own exclusive will have some influence on what they do.

**John:** Everything will change because of that.

**Craig:** Of course.

**John:** This season is also WGA election season. So, members in the West and the East are picking new members for their board. Traditionally Craig and I at this segment in our podcast would walk through all the candidates and talk about our favorites and people that we have picks and people who we endorse. You can look at the people we’ve endorsed in the last election cycle. We had completely divergent lists. We absolutely agreed on sort of none of the people who should have been running.

This year it’s actually – I don’t think we actually have those great differences. I think one of the points of agreement we definitely have is that representation of feature writers is so important and there’s only one person who is running who is primarily a feature writer, so I want to just call him out. Daniel Kunka is running. He’s a person you should look at if you’re going to vote.

I have worked with all the incumbents. I think they’re terrific. I also think it’s really important to get new people in there and new voices and new perspectives. So, I don’t want to endorse the incumbents to the degree that we miss out on some other great new people coming into it.

I think every WGA election is important, but in this one I don’t have as strongly held opinions as I usually would. Craig?

**Craig:** Yeah. The only opinion I have is that Daniel Kunka absolutely needs to be elected because we are suffering as a union because of the strange bifurcation of our membership, and particularly the gulf between leadership and membership. There are so many feature writers who essentially are nearly unrepresented in that room. That is ridiculous. And it has to change. And we can see it directly reflected in the way our negotiations are conducted. Our last negotiation got for screenwriters nothing. And before, nothing. And before that, nothing. And so it will continue to go unless there are very strong and insistent screenwriting voices on that board.

So, Daniel is the only one running here and we need him there. A big fan of Travis Donnelly who has been there for a while. Travis is a very rational guy. And don’t vote for Patric Verrone. [laughs] Because it’s enough already.

**John:** I was going to say, it was actually in my outline that Craig would say, “Don’t vote for Patric Verrone,” because it wouldn’t be a podcast if Craig wasn’t saying not to vote for him.

**Craig:** It’s enough already. It’s enough. New blood is the least of it. I mean, come on.

**John:** One thing I want to stress is that I’ve had conversations separately with some of the new folks who are running and obviously many incumbents and while underlining the importance of actually having screenwriter representation on the board, every single person I’ve spoken to has demonstrated a desire to understand the issues facing screenwriters and a desire to create the kinds of changes that Craig and I both feel need to happen. So, it’s not for lack of information about sort of why the screenwriter issues are so important.

We also have Michele Mulroney who is on the exec council there who is pushing those issues as much as possible. So it’s important to have another screenwriter on there, but I don’t want to say no one else on the board cares, because they deeply do.

**Craig:** I’m not going to say that, but I do think there’s a difference between not being in a group but caring about that group, and being in a group and caring about that group. There is a difference. And we need people who not only are willing to understand and listen and talk about these things. We need people who feel them. And who live and breathe them. It is a real significant difference.

**John:** Absolutely.

**Craig:** And that rolls for obviously if you’re a screenwriter, but also that applies to women, that applies to writers of color, that applies to LGBT writers. It applies to every category of underrepresented writer and god knows almost every category has been underrepresented on our board for a long time.

**John:** But I want to make sure we’re also taking this moment to acknowledge comedy variety writers are super underrepresented in the West. And so they have good representation in the East. They don’t have strong representation here in the West just because they’re rarely getting elected for the board. They have it worse than feature writers do. And so we need to make sure–

**Craig:** Is anybody currently running?

**John:** None of the people who are currently running are I believe primarily comedy variety writers. So we need to get those people. Those people were represented well on the negotiating committee which is how I got to know so many of their issues. So just I really appreciate the work that people are putting in to try to understand feature issues. We all need to put the work in to understand comedy variety issues because many of those writers are really struggling and suffering in ways that other TV writers aren’t.

**Craig:** Agreed.

**John:** Agreed. All right, let’s get to our marquee topic. So 2020 was a big year for many, many things, but it was also a big year for words.

**Craig:** I love words.

**John:** So this year we’ve seen a pretty abrupt change in the use of the word Black in place of African American. I did some panels this past year on the criminal justice system and addiction and we were definitely using terms like incarcerated people rather than prisoners. People with substance abuse disorders rather than addicts. But it’s not just about avoiding negative terms for things, or negative connotations.

I saw a lot of new specificity in how people talked about their gender identity. So, Craig, I felt like I’ve just been much more mindful over the last 12 months about trying to use appropriate words for things. But also cautious at times. A little paranoid that I was going to misstep. Do you feel this ever?

**Craig:** Yeah. I mean, it’s understandable. Because the language is evolving rapidly and things that were corrective words have now been sort of pushed aside. There was a time in the ‘90s where African American was, it seemed to me, a preferred term, particularly in academic settings, as opposed to Black. And now it has been pushed aside and Black has returned.

And of course one of the classic examples is people of color were once called colored people. Colored people is considered a very offensive term. People of color is considered a fairly woke and progressive term. Are they linguistically that different? No. Who uses those words? Very different. How they were used? Very different.

So, it’s about kind of keeping up with this quickly morphing language and being, well, I would say I’m not paranoid as much as I am careful. And what sort of predicates that care is just a general concern that I don’t hurt someone’s feelings.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** I mean, really it’s just as simple as that. I know some people think it’s like, “Oh, PC, blah-blah-blah.” Well, I just don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. I mean, like if you said to me, “Listen, man, I know my name is John but I really like to go by Jack, so please call me Jack,” and I kept calling you John I would be a jerk. Just like, you know, just be nice. That’s basically what I’m trying to do.

**John:** Yeah. So let’s learn about how not to be jerks and how to sort of use terms that are appropriate for the people that we’re talking about. And let’s focus on one part of that today. Let’s talk about people living with disabilities. And to help us out with this we are so happy to welcome Nic Novicki. He is a writer, actor, and comedian. He’s also the founder and director of the Easterseals Disability Film Challenge. Nic, welcome to the show.

**Nic Novicki:** Hey, thanks so much for having me.

**John:** It is a pleasure to have you on the show. And we catch you while you’re on vacation. You’re apparently in Colorado. So thank you for Skyping in.

**Nic:** Oh, yes, thank you. That’s the beauty of the new world we’re in. Just do it from anywhere.

**John:** So, I first interacted with you because this movie I wrote, The Shadows, which has a blind protagonist, you were helping me do outreach for that. So thank you for that. But even as I say that the word blind is complicated because there’s a range of conditions and abilities in different communities and I had to be mindful of that as we were sort of talking about that.

And so as a person who works with these communities a lot, just get us started. Can you talk about some general advice about how we refer to and talk about characters in our scripts or people we’re referring to as groups. What are some general best practices we need to keep in mind referring to people who are living with disabilities?

**Nic:** Yeah. Well, thanks so much. And first of all as this is a podcast many of you don’t know, but I’m also a little person. So, as somebody who is 38 years old and I’ve grown up around little people my whole life. My wife is a little person. I’m very comfortable in that and being a little person. But really I started this Easterseals Disability Film Challenge to create opportunities for other people with disabilities. And so now I interact with hundreds of different people with disabilities.

I will say first and foremost that there is a lot of pride in the disability community. There’s a really smart guy named Lawrence Carter-Long who had a whole campaign about say the word, disability. So let’s not hide it. Let’s be proud of it. And really with the film challenge that’s really what we’re embracing. It’s about bringing our own content together.

So a lot of times we’ve seen that many different people with disabilities, I interact with as I said hundreds, and all different types of disabilities. And you hit the nail on the head. With the blind community there’s low vision, there’s legally blind, there’s fully blind. So, when we’re talking about say wheelchair user, we like to say wheelchair user because that person is not bound to their wheelchair. But there was a time when it was wheelchair-bound was the preferred terminology. And even within little people, Little People of America was started as Midgets of America, which at the time was the word that was just known and now it’s highly offensive to people in the little people community.

**John:** Well, let’s go back to even that word disability because I felt like you’re using that word and I see the Easterseals site uses it, so it talks about Americans living with disability, so I’m feeling good saying that in this podcast. But I also remember a time not so long ago where I felt like differently abled was a thing. There was a whole range of other terms I felt like we were supposed to be using around things. Do you feel like right now in 2020 a person with a disability is the right way to talk about a general grouping of people who might have special needs, special requirements?

**Nic:** Yeah, I think that really, I mean, for me I started the disability film challenge in 2013, partnering with Easterseals, Southern California, which is the nation’s largest disability services organization in 2017. And ultimately for me I was like, look, let’s just say the word disability. And this is even before Lawrence Carter-Long I had heard that. You know, for me it was about pride. It’s about pride in disability. And also just for myself I like to not focus so much on the terminology but let’s just get past it. I’m a little person. I have a disability. And I’m a comedian. I’m an actor. I’m a jerk. I’m a whatever. You know?

Just not spending too much time on the label but really getting to it. You know, that’s what I think is the most important.

**Craig:** It does seem like one of the places where people sometimes stumble and fall is that they think of these words as the way we refer to people as some kind of blanket permission. Like, OK, good, I figured out this is what I call these people. I’m safe now. And in a sense they sort of are just – they are engaging with people as a label and not individuals. And when I’m listening to you talk and you say, OK, I’m somebody who has a disability and I’m proud of it, it reminds me of how we are emotional creatures. All of us.

And whether we are being emotional about some advantage or some disadvantage we may have, it’s personal and there is pride, or in some cases there is a shame or guilt. And so these words are not just random labels. They have meaning for people. And sometimes I think when people learn that they have mislabeled someone they get annoyed because they just think it’s like, ugh, well who cares. It’s a package. What did I say, it was a carton but it’s really a box? Who cares?

Well, I think these words do have emotional value for everyone, not just people who are disabled, but everyone.

**Nic:** I agree. I agree. And I will say the one thing is that I know if you were to come to me and say, “Nic, what do I call you?” I’m willing to join the conversation and say, hey, I like being called a little person. So I think that there’s so much within in the community. You know, as I said, it’s really going to pride about the disability community. Because when you talk about the disability community there’s 61 million Americans with some form of disability, whether that’s [unintelligible], that’s cognitive. So that intersects amongst a different race, gender, ethnicity, religion, you know, you name it.

So, really as a little person we have a bond with just being little. But I also feel that same bond from a wheelchair user, or somebody with spina bifida or CP or autism and vice versa. So I think that there’s really kind of a movement of pride and I think, you know, really I’m blessed that that’s been partially happening through the Easterseals Disability Film Challenge of people creating their own content.

But we’re seeing that a lot. People with disabilities creating their own content and kind of telling their story from their point of view. A lot of times, you know, for me I’ve been very blessed and I’ve been in over 40 TV shows and movies. And I’ve gotten the chance to work with Martin Scorsese and the Farrelly brothers. But a lot of it has been work leading to work. And people knowing me and being like, ah, he’s good at negotiating to get us a discount at the bill. And so it’s like that becomes my character versus somebody struggling to reach something.

**Craig:** Right.

**Nic:** So I think it’s about exposure is a big thing, too. To where it doesn’t turn into an issue with people really spending so much time about the labels, but then getting to like well what’s the second layer of this character.

**Craig:** You mean like the human being part. [laughs] Which people really seem to struggle with, which is remarkable. But I wonder since you are so directly involved in trying to improve participation and representation onscreen, how do you think it’s going? Are things getting better, the same, or worse?

**Nic:** Well, I think they’re getting better in a big way. And I’m very optimistic that it’s going to continue to get better. But if you look at the percentages, as I said 61 million Americans have some form of disability. There’s less than two percent of characters portrayed as having disabilities. And out of that 95 percent of those characters are portrayed by non-disabled actors.

So, really there’s nowhere to go but up. And having seen so many people with disabilities, so talented, telling their own story. Writing their own projects. Now with DSLR cameras. The ability to create your own project from your house. And I’m honored that that’s really happened a lot through the film challenge. And really I’ve made my whole career out of that. Just doing it myself. And writing it. And kind of putting it out there in the world. So, I’m seeing a lot of those percentages changing.

And even I’ve been blessed to get certain roles. I was on The Good Doctor where I played a character this year that had almost nothing to do with me being a little person. I had two girlfriends. So, again it was a flaw and I was a flawed character, but it really wasn’t about me being a little person.

**Craig:** Right. It was about you being a cad.

**Nic:** Yeah. And I think that there’s – so a lot of the focus is about actors with disabilities, which is important. But there’s so many roles behind the camera in terms of you could be working as an editor, as a writer, as a producer. So, that I feel like we do need much more of a focus on as an industry. And we’ve seen the industry reaching out to us. And I think that there’s a lot of ambition from studios and networks saying we better get a little better about this.

So, I think if you’re a person with a disability out there and especially if you have an invisible disability, please put it out there in the world. Because I think that networks and studios and writers and producers want to have a fully inclusive in front of but behind the camera as well.

**John:** Question for you, Nic. Have you noticed any differences between our perception and exposure to people with disabilities in the United States versus how things are internationally? Because when I was living in Paris I noticed that not just accommodations for blind people but sort of like how blind people moved through the city was very different. How busses worked for different – do you find that you can assume that how things work in the US are the same overseas?

And maybe coming back down to terms for things as well.

**Nic:** Yeah, well that’s a great question. And I uniquely have had the opportunity to travel the world a lot. I traveled with a play called Doll House where it was all little people portraying the role. And I’ve done USO tours for the troops as a comedian. So I’ve gotten a chance to see, you know, perform in six continents. And I will say that although the US is not perfect, the accommodations are so much better here as a whole.

**Craig:** Interesting.

**Nic:** And I will say that people are very open to a lot of areas. Now, overseas people are very open, but I think disability there’s still a bit of a stigma depending on where you are on disability. And so I think in some senses they’re not as progressive as they are here. I feel like England though there’s so much amazing TV that is portraying people with disabilities. And they’re ahead of us in some senses and other countries they are as a whole. But I feel like in terms of accessibility with the Americans with Disabilities Act, you know, in many ways we’re leading the world in this movement for a fully accessible society.

**Craig:** Well, you know, in the UK one of the writers who has been at the forefront of advocating for the representation of disabled people onscreen and also the inclusion of disabled people behind the screen is Jack Thorne. My beloved Jack Thorne. One of the greatest writers in the world, who himself has an invisible disability. And who has been such a great advocate. So I’m not surprised to hear that that is that way in London or in the UK. I think that’s wonderful. But I’m also – I’ve got to tell you, Nic, it’s been a long time since someone said something about the United States where it wasn’t like, “We’re way behind.” [laughs]

**Nic:** Yeah. Well, we are. I mean, we still are in some senses. There’s definitely a fight going. Certain places do not abide by the Americans with Disabilities Act. I feel like we could still have a more inclusive entertainment industry, which ultimately destigmatizes disability. But I feel like we’re going in the right direction. And I think that also as a little person there are other countries around the world where you’re almost living in fear going outside as a little person.

**Craig:** Wow. Yeah.

**Nic:** So I do feel privileged in a sense to be living in a society where we do not have to worry about certain things.

**Craig:** Right on.

**John:** Yeah. Shoshannah Stern who was a guest on Scriptnotes—

**Nic:** She’s great.

**John:** Who is a deaf writer and actress who is phenomenal.

**Nic:** I love Shoshannah.

**Craig:** She’s our beloved Shoshannah Stern. She also gets beloved. She’s beloved.

**John:** You have to have the adjective in front of her name.

**Craig:** Yes.

**John:** I saw her tweeting about sort of the anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act and that was a groundbreaking piece of legislation. While imperfect, it did formally acknowledge that our systems have to be set up so that people have the ability to succeed. And that people aren’t kept out of places they need to go. So, a small success.

**Nic:** Yeah. No, it’s been a huge success, honestly, in many ways. And I’ve seen firsthand so many people that have benefited from it. And it’s really important legislation that needs to continue to be in the forefront, and especially as we move into a new presidential cycle I’m hoping that continues to be brought up and in people’s minds. Because it’s really important and it makes people live a fully inclusive life. And I’m proud that we have it.

**John:** So, let’s get back to the words. And so the words we’re using for things. We got a question in from a listener and I thought you’d be the perfect person to help us talk through this. Craig, do you want to read what Anita wrote?

**Craig:** I absolutely do. Anita from Sydney writes, “On a recent episode in the One Cool Thing section I heard you talking about a D&D game and you mentioned dwarves in the same breath as elves and gnomes. My daughter has dwarfism and it’s always bothered me that onscreen dwarves get lumped in with mythical creatures. Dwarves are real people who have a very tough time living in the real world. They are constantly stared out, shouted out from cars, and are often subjected to the very worst human behaviors.

“Probably as a result, unfortunately people with dwarfism have one of the highest suicide rates of all conditions. I would love this group of people to receive the empathy they truly deserve. Imagine how weird it would be if people with spina bifida or MS sufferers were associated with elves and gnomes. Please consider shining a light on this topic as screenwriters can begin to change people’s perception about dwarves, firstly ceasing with the magical character attributes.”

So, Nic, where do you come down on this one? Because Wizards of the Coast which runs D&D has been sort of engaging across the board with a lot of these things, including the fact that there is an entire category in D&D called race, and there are racial attributes. And they seem to be kind of thinking through how they’re using words. What do you feel about this?

**Nic:** Well, I mean, I feel like this is definitely a really interesting point that she brings up. There’s a couple things here. One, in terms of suicide, you know, mental illness, there’s more people with invisible disabilities than physical disabilities by percentage. So, I mean, I feel like that’s an issue that needs to not be taken lightly. But I will say if that parent is listening there’s so many successful little people and happy little people that grow up, myself being married to another amazing little person who works in development, working for Mattel.

So, I feel like there are a lot of role models to look to. But in terms of identifying in different categories, one, I am a real life dwarf. So I am not an elf. I am not, you know, so I feel like that is an interesting thing in terms of categorizing. Going a step further to that, though, it’s really about authentic representation. So it’s about having more little people on TV and I think really of all disabilities little people are probably the most represented. I mean, with Peter Dinklage in Game of Thrones around the world, I mean, that’s one of the most successful shows kind of of all time.

So, there’s so much amazing powerful representation. You know, as I said earlier I was able to be on The Good Doctor in a guest-starring role this year. And it was such a cool role. And something to add to that is that the writer of that episode, David Renaud, is a wheelchair user. So you’re really getting full inclusion when you’re bringing people in with disabilities, to not just consult but also be involved in the writing. And I think a step further is you’re talking about other disabilities, you know, really we need more representation of other disabilities. Spina bifida, cerebral palsy, autism. Having more authentic representation of having actors with that disability portray these roles and also to have, you know, people with those disabilities involved in the consulting.

But my last thing to say on this is, you know, it’s important to have the visibility. And in three dimensional characters. So I feel like as little people we shouldn’t not be able to be in a fantasy role if there’s a three-dimensional character. I think the difference is sometimes if it’s just a troll just pops up and is the joke rather than involved in the joke and is now kind of – that’s where we get the difference.

**Craig:** Got it.

**Nic:** You know, the history of dwarfism is very complex, too, though. We were jesters and a lot of real things in the past. We were never elves. Even though if you look at my IMDb you could find the work in there somewhere.

**John:** The North Pole version.

**Nic:** But I think for me I’m all about what more can I be doing for the situation. So I think it’s mostly how this changes and how this parent and this child of dwarfism in Australia becomes more comfortable with their dwarfism and their community becomes more comfortable is when they’re able to see characters authentically portrayed and cool or interesting or just three-dimensional characters in general. So, I feel like more authentic representation is where this changes. And, yeah, society changes, too.

I mean, Australia, I’ve been there but for a week. You know, so I don’t have enough of a say of what the society is like there. But there may be more bullying going on. And that may not just be for little people. That may be for all kinds of different people aside from disabilities. I don’t know.

**Craig:** I mean, it does seem like we have various levers to try and influence people’s behavior and how they look at each other and look at people who are different than them. And empathizing with another human being who has a condition that you don’t have is probably a more effective lever than just sort of blanket saying we have decided to no longer call this thing this thing. There’s a lexica graphic solution to things, but what I love about what you’re saying in particular as it ties into what all three of us do as artists is that we use the power of portrayal to create empathy. And in that regard what Peter Dinklage was able to do on Game of Thrones I suspect was a larger lever push on behalf of people with dwarfism than just about anything else short of massive legislation like the ADA.

**Nic:** Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that’s – you also get pride in that.

**Craig:** Right.

**Nic:** That little girl when she’s in school and they’re talking about it, it’s like yeah, well he just won the Golden Globe last week.

**Craig:** Right.

**Nic:** Not to name drop, but you know, we’re doing OK as little people.

**Craig:** That’s right. Great.

**John:** This conversation is getting me to think back to times when I’ve used words that now looking back it’s like I would not use that word now. But it is recognizing that things do change and things move on. So I’m thinking back to my script for Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. There’s a hateful little kid named Mike TV who said like, “It’s so easy, a retarded person could use it.” Basically he uses the word retard. And I would absolutely not use that word now. But at the time I was using it for a hateful little kid to say it was believable. It was common. And it wasn’t considered unempathetic for it to be included in the script.

And it gets me thinking about there’s a term that Steven Pinker coined called the Euphemism Treadmill, which is that sometimes you’ll pick a term that is neutral or meant to be kind of positive and that it just wears down, it sort of morphs into becoming the bad version of it. So mental retardation was meant to be a kind, gentle word to describe people with certain conditions. And as it got made into an epithet anything associated with it became negative and bad.

And it’s such a natural cycle that does sort of happen. And so as we look back to things that were written five years, ten years, 20 years ago, things do – I can’t believe people said “colored people” rather than “people of color.” It’s a very natural process that happens. And so we should be mindful that even the choices we make right now may seem weird five years, ten years, 20 years down the road.

**Nic:** Yeah.

**John:** They may seem unempathetic.

**Nic:** Yeah. You hit the nail on the head. I mean, with little people, as I said, we were Midgets of America. And the word midget actually derived from the word midge which was an insect. And it was created during the PT Barnum circus time to separate little people and categorizations of dwarfism.

But even as little people of the ‘50s and ‘40s we were like, “I’m a midget.” And they wouldn’t say that like I’m less. That was the term. So, it evolved as, hey, wait a minute, we should be little people. And I think that that’s happening for all different disabilities. There’s so many different, from as I said earlier wheelchair-bound versus wheelchair user. Autism, neuro-diverse, person with autism. There’s person-first language. I mean, for me I’m always all about let’s focus less on the terminology and more about the person, the job, the work. Forget what to call me. Just call me Nic.

But it is important because this is something that I think even beyond the entertainment world I think for big companies and, you know, they get so nervous of saying things wrong that they think they’re like, oh, wait a minute, I don’t want to bring that person in. And I think it’s like the more we can just normalize and use terms, and be OK with the fact that we may be using a term that in five years is going to be not the right term anymore.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** Yeah. And the same way that companies may be nervous to hire that employee because they’re worried about those issues, my concern is that sometimes writers are afraid to include that character, that specific character, because they’re worried about doing something wrong. And so I think we’re all urging people to be brave, be smart, and this might be a great way to wrap up by saying like if people want to find out more about what you do with Easterseals or issues of representation and talking about the community of people with disabilities, where should they start? Where would you recommend people go first?

**Nic:** Well, one, you can go to disabilityfilmchallenge.com. We have seven years of hundreds of films that were created by people with disabilities. Each film has to have somebody with a disability in front of or behind the camera. This year we had to do documentary film. So these are all people with disabilities telling their story. But I feel like even beyond the film challenge if you go to YouTube you can search a certain person with a disability. Cerebral palsy. And you can see somebody with cerebral palsy talking about themselves. Or a little person. And you can kind of see how they want to be labeled. And a lot of times they’re self-labeling themselves either in the video or in the speech.

But also, you know, people reach out to us, networks, writers, executives, all the time. Hey, I’m looking to talk to somebody with cerebral palsy, a wheelchair user. I think the community as a whole, you know, this is the most important thing. The disability community is a community. And we’re there to be partners in making the world more inclusive. So I would say don’t be afraid to reach out to us. And then on the flip side as writers, especially in TV, in many senses you guys are also the producers. So in some senses just write a cool character and don’t even worry so much about the description of the character. Just bring that into casting and being like, hey, let’s make this an African American wheelchair user. And then having that same three-dimensional character that’s a jerk, or funny, or cool, or smart. But I think that there are so many people with disabilities that are willing to join the conversation and be there. And we want a seat at the table.

And I know myself included I’m willing to do whatever I can to help.

**Craig:** I think that’s fantastic. I’m working on a movie script and there’s a character in it who is a wheelchair user. So the director and I reached out to somebody who is a wheelchair user who specifically works in the theater community and had made herself available to have these discussions. And it’s the homework we need to do with each other. All of us. It’s really important. Just talk to each other. And to listen.

And if you are just being selfish, if all you care about is being a better artist, it will make you a better artist. You will do a better job. For that reason alone. Even if you have no concern for your fellow human being, and you just want to be a better writer, better actor, better director, this is a great thing to do. And so I’m so pleased that we got a chance to talk to you. And I’m also just super impressed with the work that you’ve already done. It’s pretty amazing. So awesome job, Nic.

**Nic:** Well thank you. I’m a huge fan of this podcast and both of you guys as artists. So this was an honor. Thank you.

**Craig:** Awesome. Thank you.

**John:** Nic, thank you so much for coming on.

**Nic:** Thank you.

**John:** OK, so Craig, this last week I was writing on a scene and I recognized that this was a scene where I created a character who is essentially single use. This character only appears in this scene. He’s very memorable and distinctive and hopefully very funny within this scene, but story wise this character is never going to reappear again. And not only is there not a natural reason for them to reappear again, they really can’t reappear again.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** And it got me thinking about the situations in which I do have a single use character and times when I want to make sure the characters can come back. And what our expectation is as writers and as readers and audiences when there’s a character who appears in only one scene.

**Craig:** And generally we’re going to try and avoid this. Meaning when we do engage a single use character we’re doing so very carefully and very intentionally. Because every actor that we bring on board that’s an expense to the production and somebody to get wardrobed and costumed. And it also demands the audience’s attention. They are just going to presume that when they meet people those people are in the movie. And the more people they meet who show up once and leave the more frustrated they get.

You keep throwing new people at them, they’re just going to stop paying attention because they’re like, ah, none of these people are going to stay around, so why am I bothering.

**John:** Yeah. I think people create a mental placeholder for them. And I find as I read scripts often I’ll circle the first time a character shows up just so I can keep track of like, OK, this is that person. And if I find myself circling a bunch of characters I’m like, oh wait, how many people are in this movie? I think you’re saying that expectation is that this person might come back so I need to remember something about them.

In some cases, especially if the scene is very dramatic or very funny, there’s kind of a misleading vividness where it feels like, oh, this person must be important because look how much screen time or look at what a big moment they had. And that can be a trap in and of itself. So, looking back at the scene that I wrote, I know it was the right choice to do it, and this was a scene which in its initial conception was going to have a group of people speaking, and then it became more clear that like, oh no, it should just be one person driving it because it was going to get too diffuse if I had a bunch of people speaking in the scene.

But what I was able to do is because this scene takes place in a specific set that the hero is going to and there’s not an expectation that they’re going to come back to it, I think I was able to make it pretty clear we don’t have an expectation that that character is ever going to be seen again. So by having it be a destination and not part of the regular home set in a way I don’t think we’re going to plan on seeing that thing again.

**Craig:** Yeah. One of the ways you can inoculate the audience against thinking that they’re going to keep seeing this person is – well very common use of single use characters is they die. So, we’re not worried about them. They’re not coming back. I’m thinking of the very opening scene of the first episode of Game of Thrones. There are a bunch of guys we don’t see again. They all die. It doesn’t matter who they are. They die. That’s the point.

Another way we can inoculate the audience is by making sure that our single use character is rooted by circumstance into a position. So, we have a main character moving through a space, whether it’s an airport, or it is a department store.

**John:** A DMV.

**Craig:** A DMV. Somebody is stuck in their job. They’re not going anywhere. Your character moves in and then leaves. And we understand that character can’t go anywhere else except where they are. I mean, one of the greatest single use characters of all time is Edie McClurg playing a rental car saleswoman in Planes, Trains, and Automobiles. And she’s perfect.

**John:** We wouldn’t want any more.

**Craig:** You couldn’t ask for a better foil for Steve Martin losing his mind. And we know we’re not going to see her again because she lives and works behind that counter and does not exist anywhere else.

**John:** Another thing I think you need to keep in mind with these single use characters is always ask yourself is my hero still driving this scene. Because so often you have this funny idea for a character, this funny situation, but if my hero can only react to that situation they’re not actually in charge of it. So what you describe of Planes, Trains, and Automobiles, it’s like the scene is not really about her. It’s about his frustration and what he does in response to her. It’s not about her. And so making sure that if you are going to use a single use character they’re not just going to take over the scene and just leave your hero, your star, just facing them as an obstacle and not doing anything themselves.

**Craig:** Yeah. There may be a tendency among new writers to try and jazz up a scene by having a waiter come over and be wacky. Nobody wants it. Nobody.

**John:** No.

**Craig:** Every now and then, for instance, here’s a for instance. Bronson Pinchot created a career for himself with a single use character in Beverly Hills Cop.

**John:** Beverly Hills Cop, yeah.

**Craig:** And it was so good. It was so fascinating and so weird that you kind of wanted more of him. And you didn’t get more of him because he was single use. And you wanted more of him and you got more of him eventually. Bronson Pinchot went on to do other things. Because I think that was before he did Perfect Strangers, I think. I think it was. I’m sure somebody will write in and tell me I’m an idiot, which I often am.

But the point is every now and then you will get something like that. But don’t aim for it. Because it almost never happens. And you really do want to design these single use characters as functions for your main character. They are obstacles. They are information. They are omens. They are distractions. But they are rarely the person who is supposed to be drawing the audience’s attention.

**John:** Yeah. So in certain circumstances, your waiter example is exactly right. Because you would say like, oh, you want every character to pop. And it’s like, yeah, but you don’t necessarily want that waiter character to pop. If the waiter needs to be there but it’s not actually the point of the scene you kind of want that character to be a little bit background. You want that character to be helping inform the setting, but they are kind of scene setting. They’re not actually the point of it.

And they should be a little bit more like set decoration than the marquee star because they’re going to probably pull focus away from what you actually want to be focusing on which is probably your hero and what your hero is doing in those moments.

**Craig:** That’s exactly right.

**John:** So as you look at your script, if you have a lot of single use characters there may be something wrong. It’s not a guarantee that something is wrong, but there might be something wrong. So if there’s four scenes in your script that have major single use characters who have multiple lines and are really doing a lot ask yourself why. And not necessarily there’s a problem, but there could be a reason why. Maybe these characters should be combined or there’s some way in which they can come back. And you may not be spending your script time properly.

**Craig:** I agree. It’s worth policing through. And every now and then you might find a way to maybe collapse them into one. If you have two scenes, you may be able to get away with just combining those two characters into one character. But, yeah, be aware of it and try to avoid.

And, by the way, when possible ask yourself does this person need to talk at all.

**John:** Oh yeah.

**Craig:** Because the difference between a person who says one word on camera and a person who says nothing is a lot of money and also a lot of attention.

**John:** A lot of time actually shooting to come around to film their lines is hours on the day.

**Craig:** It’s a lot.

**John:** I think we have time for one question. And I’m going to read a question from Brooklyn Writer. And they write, “I recently wrote a pilot and after my team circulated it a production company of some repute reached out asking me to pitch it to them. Do you have any specific advice for pitching a TV show to folks who have already read the pilot? Should I talk about the pilot still?”

Craig, what would you do in this situation?

**Craig:** I mean, I think Brooklyn Writer that they know the pilot. That’s why you’re there. So I think what they’re saying is can you tell us what this show will be. Give us the season. Let us know how this would blossom from this episode. No sense in going in there and pretending like they haven’t read it and pitching them the story of a thing they already have. Unless what you’re saying is, yeah, no you say clearly that they already have read the pilot. So I would say, yeah, you can certainly talk about some of the choices you made in the pilot and why. But I would contextualize that in – and why I did these things is because here’s where it all goes.

**John:** Yeah. Contextualizing is the name of the game here. Because let’s say that your managers have set this meeting. Well, maybe that meeting is two weeks from now. By the time you go in to actually talk with them they may have reread it or they may have skimmed it again, but they may not be super familiar with it. So what your job going into that is to kind of remind them what they liked about it and in reminding them what they liked about it you probably are going to talk about the characters, you’re going to talk about the world, you’re going to talk about what’s exciting. And then you’re going to be saying things like, “So in the pilot we follow this plot line through,” and you’re basically going to summarize the big things.

But then always be tying those into this is what’s going to be happening over the course of the season. This is what the show does. This is the engine of how things work from then on. So, you’re kind of in a good situation, because they’ve already read the thing and they’re inclined to like the thing. Now it’s about getting to that next step of thinking about not just a pilot that we might shoot but really what is the show going to be like. And you’re always in a better situation if they’ve already read something that they’re inclined to like.

**Craig:** Absolutely. Yeah. Go in there not having to start from nothing. You have a little bit of inertia has been overcome.

**John:** Yeah. All right. Some last bits of housekeeping before we get to our One Cool Things. This week we have some sort of back to school sales, post-Labor Day. We have our September sales on some things. So, Highland, the app I make for writing. The upgrade to Pro is half-price this week. So, if you want to upgrade you should upgrade this week. Writer Emergency Pack is also on sale. Two or three years ago, god, maybe it was five years ago we made a game. We Kickstarted a game called One Hit Kill, which people liked a lot, which was great. We have in a warehouse in Pennsylvania, we’re moving from that warehouse to a different warehouse.

This is supply chain economics, a short lesson on this. The actual cost of moving the One Hit Kills we have left at this one warehouse to the other warehouse is going to be more than if we just actually kind of sold these away for a dollar a piece. So we’re going to sell our remaining stock of this one black of One Hit Kills for a dollar a piece. So if you want to check out a fun game that you can play with your kids, it’s called One Hit Kill. Go to onehitkillgame.com and you can see this game. It’s $1 plus shipping. And you can help us clear the shelves and move us to our new warehouse.

So that’s cheap.

And you and I, Craig, we did something fun this last weekend. We did a series of videos talking through Roll 20 and you talked me through how to be a DM in Roll 20. It’s complicated. And, man, you are a really good teacher.

**Craig:** Thank you.

**John:** So it’s five videos up online. They’re up on my YouTube channel. I’ll put a link in the show notes. But if you are curious about DMing a game in Roll 20 which is how we have been doing our D&D games since the pandemic started Craig talks you through from beginning to end how to set up Roll 20 to do it. So I learned a tremendous amount and I will probably be going back to these videos often as I try to set up my own campaign.

**Craig:** Well, yeah, and I will say again that there are many people who are vastly better at Roll 20 than I, so I’m not putting myself out there as a super expert. But if you watch those you will have enough information to be able to DM a game. I do believe that.

**John:** Yeah. So definitely check those out if you’re curious about Roll 20. Craig, do you have a One Cool Thing?

**Craig:** I do. I do. This was something that I got for Melissa. She likes a sparkling wine, like a Champagne or whatever you call. I guess sparkling wine is champagne that’s not from Champagne. I don’t drink it, but she does. And one of the bummers about it is you pop the cork and it goes pretty flat. You can’t get that cork back in. And neither one of us are like finish a bottle type of people.

So at one point we talked about the Coravin which is a great solution for bottles of red wine, for instance. But what do you do about this sort of thing? Good news, super cheap, very effective solution. There is Champagne Bottle Stopper, and there’s a bunch of different brands, but this one that we bought is from Winco. You get a set of two for $9.52. And they just basically are little stoppers that fit over the top and then you put these little two clamps down. And it works. It legitimately works. And super cheap.

So, if you are somebody that finds yourself not finishing bottles of sparkling wine well here’s a $10 solution to that.

**John:** Like you, I’m not a big champagne person. I’ll have it if it’s the thing that people are drinking. But I’m never thirsty for champagne.

**Craig:** Neither am I. I don’t – in general white wine is just sort of a meh. It’s not my–

**John:** Sweet alcohol is just not a good combination for me. Like even a margarita at this point, no, I really can’t.

**Craig:** No Bartles & Jaymes for you?

**John:** [laughs]

**Craig:** Does that even exist anymore? That doesn’t exist.

**John:** I wonder if Bartles & Jaymes still exists. It’s worth Googling. I remember that.

**Craig:** I’m actually almost vomiting thinking about it.

**John:** Yeah, it’s not good. Not good.

**Craig:** Bad memories.

**John:** It’s the Peach Schnapps of its time.

**Craig:** Oh god. Blech.

**John:** My One Cool Thing is two related One Cool Things. So I was reading this piece by Alex Yablon in Slate about the NRA. And he describes sort of the possible end of the NRA being – basically it would get separated up into little pieces and it would be a really complicated feeding frenzy. And he describes it as a Whale Fall. And I did not know what a whale fall was. And so I clicked through the link and the Wikipedia article on a whale fall. Do you know what a whale fall is, Craig?

**Craig:** It’s when whales fall. It’s like when whales come out of the sky, like the squid in Watchmen.

**John:** Hmm. Yeah. It’s not that.

**Craig:** Oh.

**John:** So when whales die they fall to the bottom of the ocean and they can fall in really, really deep waters. And they end up creating an entire ecosystem around the creatures that scavenge that body and basically a whole bunch of biological activity happens around a whale fall that is like really important. Because it’s just so much meat and concentrated energy happening in a place that generally wouldn’t have anything to eat, that just a bunch of stuff happens.

So, I love it as a visual. I love it as a metaphor. I just think whale fall is a cool idea. So, I’ll link to the Wikipedia page on whale fall. But you can go down a deep rabbit hole on whale falls.

**Craig:** That sounds – whale fall. There’s going to be a movie now. How Would This Be a Movie? Whale fall.

**John:** That’s our show for this week. Scriptnotes is produced by Megana Rao. It is edited by Matthew Chilelli. Our outro this week is by Michael Karman. If you have an outro you can send us a link to ask@johnaugust.com. That’s also the place where you can send longer questions. But for short questions on Twitter, Craig is @clmazin. I’m @johnaugust.

We have t-shirts. And they’re great. You can find them at Cotton Bureau. You can also find them in the show notes for this episode and all episodes which are available at johnaugust.com. That’s where you also find the transcripts. You can sign up to become a Premium member at Scriptnotes.net where you get all the back episodes and bonus segments including the one we’re just about to record. Craig, thank you for a fun show.

**Craig:** Thank you, John.

[Bonus segment]

**John:** All right. Our bonus segment. This is from a tweet by Clint Ford. He writes, “A question on Reddit garnered a great deal of screenwriting discussion, so I thought I’d post it here to try to provoke similar discussion. ‘If the standards for breaking into the screenwriting industry are so high why are so many bad movies made?’” Craig Mazin?

**Craig:** Yeah, well, if you think these movies are bad, imagine how bad they would be if the standards were lower.

**John:** [laughs] Oh. So so many ways to approach this question. So we can deny the premise, which is an obvious easy one. Or then we can try to really tackle process. So I’m going to start with process. To me, this question if you rephrase it in terms of baking would be like this. You’re looking at a loaf of bread and saying if your flour is so good why is this bread so terrible. Basically you’re confusing the ingredients going into the finished product, not acknowledging that there’s a whole process. There’s many, many steps that go from flour to the final thing.

So, you can’t make good bread from rotten flour. But you can make rotten bread from perfectly good flour. And I think that so often is the case with screenplays is that sometimes the writing is really good and the process is really bad. And so the end result is a bad movie that really has very little to do with the quality of the screenwriting.

**Craig:** Yeah. I mean, there’s all sorts of ways this happens. And, again, we’re sort of talking about movies that let’s just say everybody kind of agrees are terrible. But there are very few movies like that. I mean, somebody likes every movie.

But you have to remember that the people that are deciding what gets made are not screenwriters. Now, the standards for breaking into the industry are high. But then what happens is they take people who have a lot of talent, who have shown it, and then they put them to work on something that’s bad. There’s the real answer to your question. It’s really hard to get noticed. You have to do your own writing. You have to do your own work. That’s what John did. That’s what I did. And then you get noticed, and then you get attention, and then they say, “Work on this.” And this is probably not something that that writer would have wanted to do. But they need to work. They need to pay bills, support a family.

And so a lot of times the reason that you think movies aren’t that great is because the screenwriter didn’t come up with that movie thought in the first place. Remember our discussion the other week, what were we talking about, UNO: The Movie. So, you know.

**John:** That’s a great example for this.

**Craig:** It’s going to be a bad movie. What are you going to do? I mean, I don’t care, Steven Zaillian can write Uno: The Movie, it’s not going to be a good movie because it’s UNO: The Movie.

So, right off the bat the entire industry has a corrosive impact on the quality of writing. The other major point I want to say, and I always point this out, is if you can discern a noticeable, repeatable, robust difference in quality between television right now and movies right now it’s partly because of this. Writers in features, in movies, are not only not in charge of the work that is made from their writing, but they are actively abused. They are actively shunted aside, disrespected, shifted around, and replaced. When writers are not in charge, generally speaking, the output will be damaged.

**John:** Yeah. I think that’s 100 percent true and fair. So, let me go back to the challenge and the premise of the question a little bit. So, why are so many bad movies made? I feel like the person asking this theoretical question is choosing to only look at the movies that they want to look at. And so they’re saying look at all these bad movies. It’s like, OK, but are you ignoring all the really good movies that are made? What is your cohort or movies that you’re saying that there are more bad movies? And are you saying that it’s increasing? Are you saying it’s the same percentage over time?

Yes, bad movies are going to be made. But also bad tennis shoes are going to be produced. Bad stuff is going to happen. If your expectation is that everything is going to be an A then something is really wrong with your expectations or the system, because if all you’re doing is creating one universally good thing that doesn’t feel plausible either.

**Craig:** Yeah. And what you’re used to is the range of movies that Hollywood produces. And you’ve come to think of those as somewhat inevitable, the way that we watch the Olympics and we just presume that if we’re watching 20 people in a marathon that one or two of them are going to be awesome, three will get medals, and then there’s going to be some that did OK, and then there’s going to be that idiot that runs in last. Well that idiot is one of the best runners in the world, it’s just now you think that person is “bad.”

I’m not saying that the person that initially asked this question is infantile, however there is an infantile aspect to the question. “Which is well if these movies are so bad then why aren’t they making my script?” I would love to see that script. [laughs] We will tell you. John and I will explain to you patiently why you have not broken into the screenwriting industry. Because you’ve been fooled by the level of quality that’s coming out. Believe it or not, it’s that hard to make even a bad movie.

**John:** Lastly, if the standards for breaking into the screenwriting industry are so high. I don’t know that the standards are that high. I mean, I would say that over the course of these 467 episodes we’ve tried to talk about quality in screenwriting and sort of as a craft what you’re looking for. But I hope that we’re not overstating that it’s all about the most brilliant writer always succeeds. In some cases it’s not because of their writing quality that they’re succeeding. It’s because they’re good at doing the other stuff that screenwriters have to do.

And we talk about this a lot on the show which is being a screenwriter is a lot about being a therapist and a counselor and understanding how to sort of play the game. And so a career is not about just your ability to sling words together in a useful way. It’s an incredibly important part of it, but it’s also about how to be hired for a job. How to communicate with actors and directors and sort of get stuff made and get stuff to happen. And that is a large part of it.

So, standards, well, it’s not just about your writing standards. It’s your ability to sort of interact with people and interface with people and get things to happen.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** Sometimes those people who are really good at those other parts of the job are not especially good at the writing part of the job, but that may not be the reason why these bad movies happen.

**Craig:** Yeah. And Hollywood is not a meritocracy. There are people that get these because they have a friend. There are people who get these jobs because their dad is in the business. Generally speaking those people don’t last. And you and I have talked a lot about how the phrase “breaking in” is already a trap. Nobody really breaks in. You get a shot and then you either fail or you get another shot. You continue to get shots. Basically all you ever get is a chance to break in repeatedly.

**John:** Yeah. Again and again. Craig, thank you.

**Craig:** Thank you, John.

**John:** Bye.

**Craig:** Bye.

 

Links:

* [Range Media](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/after-agency-exodus-top-reps-unveil-new-firm-range-media-partners)
* [WGA Elections](https://secure.wga.org/the-guild/about-us/officers-board-members/elections)
* [Easterseals](https://disabilityfilmchallenge.com/) Disability Film Challenge
* [Euphemisms are like underwear: best changed frequently](https://aeon.co/essays/euphemisms-are-like-underwear-best-changed-frequently)
* [One Hit Kill Game](https://www.onehitkillgame.com)
* [DM’s Guide to Roll 20](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLa3qqbMuNy-r-ZvH7UiX_OyW03ymY6axK)
* [Get Ready for a Feeding Frenzy Over the NRA’s Corpse](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/09/nra-lawsuit-gun-rights-movement-successor.html)
* [Whale Fall](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_fall)
* [Champagne Bottle Stopper](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UZ4BJKQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
* [Clint Ford Twitter Thread](https://twitter.com/actualclintford/status/1292853003838525443?s=21)
* [Get a Scriptnotes T-shirt!](https://cottonbureau.com/people/scriptnotes-podcast)
* [Nic Novicki](https://twitter.com/nicnovicki?lang=en) on Twitter
* [John August](https://twitter.com/johnaugust) on Twitter
* [Craig Mazin](https://twitter.com/clmazin) on Twitter
* [John on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/johnaugust/?hl=en)
* [Outro](http://johnaugust.com/2013/scriptnotes-the-outros) by Michael Karman ([send us yours!](http://johnaugust.com/2014/outros-needed))
* Scriptnotes is produced by Megana Rao and edited by Matthew Chilelli.

Email us at ask@johnaugust.com

You can download the episode [here](http://traffic.libsyn.com/scriptnotes/467standard.mp3).

The original post for this episode can now be found [here](https://johnaugust.com/2020/questions-or-youve-got-moxie).

**John August:** Hello and welcome. My name is John August.

**Craig Mazin:** My name is Craig Mazin.

**John:** And this is Episode 466 of Scriptnotes, a podcast about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters.

Today on the show it’s not just the US Postal Service that’s straining under the volume of mail. Craig and I have to tackle our overflowing mailbag and answer some long delayed listener questions on subtext, divorce, set decoration, and more. More, more.

And in our bonus segment for Premium members we will talk about head shots and our experience getting our photos taken.

**Craig:** Overflowing mailbag sounds dirty.

**John:** It does sound a little dirty.

**Craig:** I’m not saying that Sexy Craig is going to show up or anything, but he almost showed up. Just because, I don’t know.

**John:** Thank you for keeping him at bay.

**Craig:** No problem. I mean, listen, I’ve been taking meds.

**John:** I mean, we’re already in the middle of a pandemic. We don’t need Sexy Craig.

**Craig:** He is a super spreader if there ever was one.

**John:** I don’t think he respects social distance. I’m just saying. [laughs]

**Craig:** At all.

**John:** All right, before we get to our mailbag questions, there’s actually some news this week. So this week it came out that a bunch of high profile agents and former agents had banded together to form a new management company which frustratingly doesn’t seem to have an official name yet, but their slide deck says Moxie, so we’re going to call them Moxie for the rest of this episode.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** There’s also a different management company that formed. So I want to talk about management companies. I want to talk about this company. I want to talk about what they’re trying to do and how it fits in and how writers should pay attention. We’re going to link to two articles about Borys Kit in the Hollywood Reporter. But to sort of summarize the agents who are part of this venture are from WME, CAA, UTA, so big agencies. Some are lit agents. Some are talent agents. But if you look at the client list of who they were representing there’s a lot of overlap. So like SNL writer-performers, or Danny McBride. There’s that kind of people.

The sort of ring leader behind this Moxie thing is Peter Micelli who went from CAA to E1, which was a studio of a type that is owned or co-owned by Hasbro which owns D&D, so of course Craig and I care a lot about this.

And complicating all of this is that one of the people behind this company is Steve Cohen who is a billionaire and hedge fund trader who is also a big Trump donor, so there’s also issues of sort of who you’re getting into business with. So, Craig, there’s just a bunch of stuff related to this news.

**Craig:** Yeah. So this is not surprising. For early on in the agency campaign there was this suspicion that a bunch of agents would say, “Well screw this. I don’t want to be stuck at an agency that can’t represent writers. And I don’t care about packaging. Let’s all peel off and form a new agency.” But I think the more likely scenario was always let’s just peel off and form a management company. Why? Because management is essentially an end run around the restrictions on agents. Just as packaging, by the way, was an end run around the restrictions on agents.

So the law says that agents can’t really own the stuff that their clients are in. Packaging was a nifty way to kind of skirt around it without getting into legal trouble. But why skirt around something when you can just kick right through it? And that’s what management is.

So, managers are representing artists. They can absolutely own everything, by the way, that the artists do. They can own it 100%. They can employ them completely if they want. They can produce. The one thing that they can’t do by law is essentially procure employment. But they can always use a lawyer as a fig leaf for that. Or, frankly, an agent.

So what’s happened here is through basically 80% just the way the business has been going and 20% nudged along by the WGA’s action the ground was remarkably fertile for something like this to happen. It’s not great.

Well, look, it is great for certain people I suppose. And these are very legitimate agents. I mean, these are big shots. This is not a little thing. This is a big deal. And for writers I’m not sure how relevant it’s going to be because it seems like their eye is on something much bigger than what writers do.

**John:** Absolutely. So let’s put a pin in sort of the writer of it all. But I would say the other thing as we’re looking at the changes in the agency landscape is that we have the WGA action. We have other structural things that were happening. But then we also have the pandemic. And so you have a situation where the town is completely shut down and so the normal source of income to these WME, to CAA has dried up, especially WME when you look at sort of how much they were reliant on their other businesses being live entertainment.

**Craig:** Well, and CAA too. I mean, sports got killed, you know.

**John:** Sports. These companies which had grown big by doing other things, suddenly the other sources of income were not there. We’ve talked on the show previously how they were not taking salaries and they were cutting staff and cutting support staff. So all that stuff was already happening.

So if you were a person, an ambitious young agent at one of these places, you’re looking around saying like, “Hey, do I want to stay here in this company that may not really rebound or become the same thing, or do I want to try something new?” And this really does look like a new thing. And as the slide deck came out, which the article was linking to today, it’s clear that they really are pitching this not like even a traditional management company. It really feels more like a startup venture capital, sort of like investing in a brand.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** They’re not looking at Reese Witherspoon as an actress. They’re looking at Reese Witherspoon as a flagship marketer. Sort of a center focus of a whole new company.

**Craig:** Yes. And this is the bigger thing that I think they’re staring out. Very clever. Very smart of them. Every now and again someone comes along in that area and says, “Oh, everybody has become way too comfortable in the status quo and if you just kick over a whole bunch of things and start fresh with a clean slate and a different idea you can actually do very well.” And it has happened again, I think, and this is going to set the stage for a lot of this sort of thing.

We live in a time where very famous people have enormous value because of social media. They can impact things far beyond what they used to be able to impact. Even in the old days when actors – famous actors – could make a lot of money endorsing things, they had to be careful about what they endorsed. And even then they were just being paid by somebody else. Like I’m Nike, here’s some money, but I’m in charge.

Now you have actors who create their own brands and using their own influence. I mean, Kim Kardashian, who is not even an actor, is a billionaire specifically because of this. She created a brand and then there’s a billion things that go along with it. And these guys they want a third of it. As far as I can tell what they want to do is get a third of those things. And they’re going to I assume promise these people to grow them in such a way that they will have these large businesses based around them and this company will take a third of it. So, goodbye 10 percent. And that’s a third of ownership. That’s not commission. Ownership.

I’m looking around at the world. I see people like Jessica Alba starting her own company and it’s worth a billion dollars and she did it. And she didn’t need anyone’s help doing it. I mean, yes, she did, of course, but she didn’t need one of these companies. It’s hers.

**John:** Yeah. Look at Gwyneth Paltrow. You look at George Clooney.

**Craig:** Right. Right.

**John:** And so I want to stipulate that, yes, I’m sure there are agents and other people involved in their careers were helpful in getting some stuff going. But they are essentially entrepreneurs who are also actors. And they are unicorns. They are remarkably talented people at acting and remarkably talented at doing this thing which is to be a presence in social media and be able to make an end run around traditional gatekeepers in terms of buying ads. They’re sort of their own ad agencies. They are marketers fundamentally.

And this last week Ryan Reynolds sold his gin company for hundreds of millions of dollars. You know, Ryan has been on the show, he’s a friend. But you look at sort of what he’s done and he deserves some sort of Academy Award for just best presentation of a brand in a public sphere. I mean, he was so good at being able to market that company. He also did Mint Mobile. So, he’s really good at that. But it’s hard to say exactly how this new management company will find those people who are uniquely good at that and be able to provide value to them. Like, I don’t know what this company is actually going to be able to give them that will help them become these giant flagship brands.

**Craig:** Well, what they do is convince you otherwise. I’m not sure you’re wrong. In fact, I’m pretty sure you’re right. But the skill has always been to convince you that they are necessary. That’s their talent. That’s different than – and when I say their I mean when I’m talking about these people that come along and say we will go into business with you, I think really good agents and also really good managers – there are some – are about advancing individual artist’s careers and getting them the most money they can get.

I mean, there are still people that do it right. But then there’s a different kind of, look, we’re going to take you to the moon. And obviously at that point it’s just about, you know, ambition and greed. But it’s always been about ambition and greed. And it will work. I think it’s going to work. I have no doubt it’s going to work.

Now, this wrinkle of Steve Cohen is interesting. So, one of the agents that went over is Dave Bugliari. Dave Bugliari, big agent from CAA, very big agent from CAA, very well respected, that’s the one I think – well, and Jack Whigham both. I mean, they were the co-heads of Motion Picture Talent, which is what the agency is called, the actor wing. Those guys were columns holding up that business. And CAA will survive, but that’s a shot, right? That hurts.

And they’re not direct competitors, right? So the management company can coexist, so Dave Bugliari has a certain client as an agent, he can keep that client as a manager and that client can still stay at CAA with a different agent if they so choose.

But, these guys, Dave Bugliari for instance, is married to Alyssa Milano. Alyssa Milano is one of the most vocal anti-Trump people in Hollywood which is saying something, because so many of us are including you and me. Pretty much everybody. Well, OK, well he’s now working – he’s a partner I should say in a company that is partly funded by a Trump guy. Did they know that? I bet they didn’t. [laughs] Honestly, I bet they didn’t. And the reason I say that is because I think that sometimes these things are a bit sloppy. Like somebody comes along and says, “I got a bunch of money and it’s from a guy. He’s great.” And nobody stops and thinks, gee, I wonder if he is a Trump supporter.

**John:** Well, also, none of these people got together in a room to talk this over. This has all happened on Zoom and emails.

**Craig:** That’s kind of fun.

**John:** And kudos to them for keeping it quiet for as long as they kept it quiet. So, good on them for that. But, yes, I do think it’s problematic. Actually we’ll get to our first listener question. This came in from Florian. Here you see the CEO of an agency being a big Trump donor, but you can also imagine calling out Jeff Bezos or Amazon social practices or Disney’s blocking access to some 20th Century Fox movies for example. “As an actor-writer I’ve been told by some friends not to tweet about Amazon because I could lose a job over it. Should A-list talent leave an agency because it has ties to Trump? Or should up and coming talent refuse to sign with a big agency because of it? Where to draw the line?”

And so that’s the question you’re raising with this manager who is coming over there, but also with all the clients who might decide to sign there they have to decide to sign there they have to decide do I want to be in business with some of these types of people.

**Craig:** I’m glad that Florian asked this question, because the truth is there is no line. It is impossible to be pure. There are no clean hands, ever, because every corporation engages in practices that are questionable. Capitalism in general is going to engender some iffy things on the borders, if not outright awful things. And we live in a global market. The entertainment industry is particularly global. So, it’s impossible to not work with people that are also working with people that you might not respect.

So, the question is where do you draw the line? Well, if you’re an employee and writers are it’s a little different and difficult. You make your choices as you go. If something feels particularly bad you don’t do it. But you evaluate and you do the best you can, I think.

If you are talking about going into business and partnering with somebody that’s different. So, I was approached by somebody who had started a new business partnering with – oh, let’s just say a nation that is of ill repute when it comes to civil liberties and freedom.

**John:** Yeah, there’s a couple of those I can think of.

**Craig:** Yeah. There’s a few of those. And I just said, no, no, I’m not going to get into bed with that. I don’t want to. And because of this.

When you start a business, when you make some large partnership, I think that that has to be something that you evaluate and think about. But also to remember that these businesses which are enormous are divided up in so many ways and employ so many people and so it’s not always as simple as this or this.

I mean, look, I just got rid of my payroll company because they advertised on Tucker Carlson. Right? I mean, that’s not going to bring them down. They’re not going to come crashing down. By the way, my favorite thing on Twitter is like Trumpy people are like, “You’re lying. You don’t use a payroll company.” And I’m like you mean for $40 a month, yeah, I do. I do. [laughs] It’s not a boast.

But you do the things you can do. You try your best but you don’t let the perfect get in the way of the good. It is impossible to have clean hands. Just try and make them as clean as you can make them while moving through the world.

**John:** There’s a project which we are largely set up but we’re figuring out some of the financing. And so the producers called and said like, “Hey, I just want to make sure that you’re not going to have any problem with X company.” And I’m like, oh, I have a big problem with X company. That absolutely cannot happen. And they were so frustrated with me, but also I’m the creator/showrunner. I’m not going to do it. If you’re going to do that, I’m gone. And so they have to find other money. And there is other money to find.

And you’re right in that if you look deep enough in some of the money there are going to be problematic things. Like Amazon is a remarkable company but it is also problematic in a lot of ways.

**Craig:** Sure.

**John:** A lot of international financing is so helpful, especially for independent film, but you look at really the sources of it it’s not great. And so you have to make those choices. And I think trying to distinguish between being what is a partnership versus what is I’m an employee is helpful to some degree, but at a certain point the difference between being a partner and being an employee becomes a little bit blurry, which I think is a good segue to how this impacts writers and showrunners.

Because I think something like a Moxie or whatever the final name of this is, while it’s focused largely on actors and sort of big name faces, some of the big name writers we’ve talked about on the show, sort of the writer pluses would be candidates for this. I could imagine like a Shonda Rhimes being the kind of person who is both a public face and is a brand in and of herself that is super appropriate for this kind of company.

**Craig:** Yes. There are some, fewer than there are in the world of acting, of course. There is nothing like having your face on TV or on screen to make you known. I mean, the difference between how many people know Shonda versus how many people know – pick an actor on SNL, you know, it’s shocking. It’s legitimately shocking. Because everybody should know who she is.

So, that is part of it. I mean, the big value for showrunners is always going to be the amount of money they earn, right, and getting some of it. And will that fit into this model? I don’t know. What I continue to be nervous about is the forced evolution of television where the people who are, we’ll call them the commission class, even though they often aren’t working on commission, but rather they’re just taking fees from the network or streamers themselves, that space will continue to move toward packaging around directors and actors, particularly actors, because that’s how this new company, Moxie, or whatever they end up being called, will make money.

Moxie is going to make – there was something buried in one of these things that was shocking to me. And it was in one of the articles the people that were talking about this new venture were saying basically one of the reasons we’re doing this is because the agencies they don’t have the time or energy to concentrate on their top earners. Their attention is too divided. And I’m like, wow.

**John:** Here’s the quote that I think you want. This is a quote from the slide deck. “The current representation system is broken. Lack of transparency has eroded trust. Big agencies do not spend most of their time on the largest earners. Agents are distracted by bloated client lists.”

**Craig:** Wow. Right?

**John:** So basically if you’re not focused on those tip top people, because you’re spending too much time on the riffraff, but we care about the riffraff and we want those riffraff to have good representation.

**Craig:** Well, not only that but we’re over here saying the problem with the agencies is that they’re on fire. And these guys are like the problem with that building is it’s not warm enough. Right? There has never, never been a problem at the agencies where they are not paying enough attention to the people who earn the most money. That has literally never been a problem, not for one second. It has always been the opposite. And of course it’s always been the opposite.

When you have a client that you’re making $40 million off of over the course of 12 years, or one that you’re making $80,000 off of, it’s not rocket science. Everybody knows how this functions. What these guys are saying is there are entire groups of people that we want to separate out from that. What we call a large earner are these people who can generate a billion dollars. At this point I will continue to be concerned that the television landscape is going to be warped by these people. They are going to come in and artificially twist things in favor of the people that make them the most money. And writers will lose creative influence and authority in the space and in doing so the end is threatened of what is the single best creative run of any medium ever in our business, which is television right now.

**John:** Very, very possible. I’ll be curious to follow up on this a year from now, five years from now, to see if this company, if Moxie and companies like this are really all that focused on creating narrative content, or if they are creating products, like things that people can directly buy. Because if they are more sort of the Aviation gin, Mint Mobile, you know, Jessica Alba’s lines, Jennifer Lopez’s cosmetics, if they are more that then it’s not a direct impact to sort of what we do as writers.

But if they are more sort of the Hello Sunshine let’s build out a brand that is making a lot of entertainment, then that’s going to have a huge impact on us.

**Craig:** It is. And what you will see, I suspect, from this company is that when writers touch them it’s going to be because they’re brought in to pitch as if talking to a studio. So let’s say they represent – I don’t think they do represent somebody like Brad Pitt, but let’s say they did. And Brad Pitt is a huge fan of something like let’s say Dungeons & Dragons, OK? Starting to sound great. Well, it’s Brad Pitt’s Dungeons & Dragons now. And now you come in and you are competing with 12 other people to part of this massive thing that is going to generate new sets from Wizards of the Coast, all branded with Brad Pitt’s new angle on Dungeons & Dragons. Again, this is all hypothetical, please don’t report this Deadline. It’s not true.

But the point is you’re a widget. You are no longer in charge of a goddamn thing. You are just an employee. And I know that people on the television side will say, “That’s never going to happen. That’s not how TV works.” And all I can just do is point to features and say I refute you thus. Because that’s exactly how features work. And the only difference is its culture. There’s nothing else stopping it.

It’s not like writers are less important in features. We’re frankly more important, I would think, because it’s all one shot. That’s it. You get one episode of a film. And yet still this is how film works. And this is what they’re going to do to television if we aren’t – well, if we and the networks and streamers aren’t careful. Because these guys are coming, you know, they’re coming.

**John:** Yeah. My last observation would be that the real risk about building companies around the brands of individuals is that that individual does something bad and you’ve completely destroyed that company. And so like Reese Witherspoon is not going to do something terrible, but some of these other people they could do something terrible. And suddenly all that value just goes away. And that is I think a real risk and a real danger. Everyone is sort of like one bad paparazzi shot away from these things evaporating. And so that is a real risk that I hope people who are investing in this company are keeping in mind.

Because we’ve seen that happen in features and TV all this–

**Craig:** But the guy investing in it backs Donald Trump. I just don’t think he cares. [laughs]

**John:** Yeah, no.

**Craig:** Yeah. I don’t think he cares. I mean, it’ll be interesting to see. I mean, I don’t mean to sound like just an endlessly negative nelly about a new thing, because there is a risk that you just sound like a reactionary who is afraid of anything new. And to repeat this is something that will ideally ride alongside agents. But the thing I’m interested about, John, just looking ahead to the future is what are the agencies going to do about this? Because there is this one lever that they haven’t ever really thrown against management companies because management companies have essentially agreed to a kind of truce. The big ones at least. And that is if you’re going to compete with us then we’re going to go to the state because there’s law involved. And you are essentially violating the law, because you are procuring employment.

It’s probably not going to work, because there’s so many ways around it. From the writer’s point of view I don’t necessarily think empowering management companies like this is remotely good for us, because it’s just taking what we just fought against and making it so much worse. So we were fighting against people that were throwing grenades at us, and so the grenade throwers went, OK, we’re out of the grenade business. We are now in the rocket-launching business. OK. Well, let’s see how it goes.

**John:** All right. We will follow up on this probably for the next five years.

**Craig:** Yeah, fun.

**John:** See how long this podcast goes.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** But let’s get to some questions, because man this virtual mailbag is very, very full.

**Craig:** Swollen.

**John:** We’ll start with Andy from Brooklyn. Do you want to take Andy from Brooklyn?

**Craig:** Hey, Andy, what’s up, buddy? That used to be how people would talk from Brooklyn. I was born in Brooklyn.

**John:** Were you playing stickball?

**Craig:** My dad played stickball. The late Leonard Mazin played stickball. He was actually in Lower Manhattan. He was in the Lower East Side, which is no good. But, yeah, they came from that generation. People singing Doo-wop on the steps and all of that. Plus, don’t forget, deeply entrenched racism.

Andy from Brooklyn asks, “How do you decide what to write next? Obviously you write what someone is willing to pay you for, but you’re both at a place where you have a serious say in what you get to turn to after you put a finished project behind you. So setting aside financial pressures, once you clear the decks and the sky is the limit how do you choose the next project to dive into?”

John, how do you do it?

**John:** For me there’s always a bunch of things that are appealing. They’re shiny bobbles that like, oh, when I get the time I want to do that thing. And it’s generally those projects that have stuck around the longest in my brain that say like, oh OK, this is the time do that.

But, whenever the decks do get a little bit clearer, they’re never like fully clear, but they get a little bit clearer, I would say that it has to be something that is an area that I wanted to do for a while and I have a new way into it. So there has to be something new about the idea. Something like, oh, that’s really appealing about it. And it has to marry with something that I’ve been itching to do for a long time. So this is not a true thing at all, but let’s say I always wanted to do a western. And for years I always wanted to do a western. And if I had some new way into doing a western, like OK that’s what is appealing to me. That’s probably the thing I’m going to write next.

So it’s really a chance to marry something old and something new is what gets me over that hump. A thing I’ve said before on the podcast, actually the first time I said it was in Episode 100, is that as I’m sorting through which things I’m going to actually sit down and write, I will try to prioritize the thing that has the best ending. Because beginnings are really easy. It’s the good ending that will actually finish that project.

**Craig:** The ending is everything. It’s a good question. And I think if people ask this question every 100 episodes they’ll get slightly different answers from me. And possibly from you as well, because our careers do change. Part of this process is actually a kind of therapy. You need to examine your own sense of self-worth and you need to interrogate whether you’re being precious because you’re afraid, or whether you’re being selective because of just a general healthy self-regard. It’s tricky. Right?

And we do not decide things rationally. This we know. As human beings we are not rational. So I think about it a lot. I tend to torture myself a little bit over it. Some writers are more tortured about these things than others. But there is a general phrase that I have in my mind these days, and it’s something that Casey Bloys who is the Head of Programming at HBO and now HBO Max, and I suppose once HBO expands to HBO Galactic he will be in charge of that as well. When we were talking about, OK, well what am I going to do after Chernobyl I said, “Well what do you guys want?” Which is a very me thing to ask. I’m very people-pleasing. What do you guys want?

And he said, “What I want is for you to work on something that makes you levitate.” And I was like that’s such a great way of thinking about it. The thing that just thrills you. If you are lucky enough, you’ve gotten to a place in your career through hard work, talent, or just dumb luck – I don’t care – either way you’re there where you do have a chance to be selective and pick, pick the thing that just makes you levitate, that gets you excited, that you love. And that will carry you through.

And for me part of the trick is forcing myself to be patient because every time you say yes you are eliminating a thousand other yeses you could say for that amount of time. So, I was just forcing patience on myself and I’m happy I did, because then along came the possibility of doing The Last of Us which makes me levitate.

So, hooray.

**John:** I’ve been meaning to ask you, with The Last of Us, it’s always hard to do this kind of introspection after the fact, but was The Last of Us a chance to say that’s a series I would love to watch, or was it back when you played the game you said like I really want to adapt this but I will never have the opportunity to.

**Craig:** The latter. In fact, I always describe myself like virtually in my mind as a kid outside of a candy store, or maybe the Little Matchstick Girl. Hans Christian Andersen, by the way, if you’re ever in the mood for something dark, flip through those stories. Little Matchstick Girl, all she wants is to be warm and eat food. And there’s a family inside eating food in a warm place and she’s freezing outside, slowly lighting her matches so that she doesn’t die immediately. But then she freezes to death. Thanks Hans Christian Andersen.

Well that was me in my head. You know, I played that game. I thought it was absolutely gorgeous. I was just enthralled by it. I knew it should be adapted. And I also knew that I would never be able to get within a hundred yards of Neil Druckmann without a restraining order. So, it just wasn’t where I was in my career. I knew that I could. I just didn’t have the evidence that I could. And I’m a realistic person enough to know that that matters.

So, many years later when it became something that could be, it just – well I suppose part of the levitation was that it had been many years in the dreaming. And so that was a nice thing.

**John:** Yeah. There’s a project I’m working on which is not announced but it is a similar situation where I watched this thing and said like, oh, someone is going to make that, I wish I could be that someone. But I have no idea how I would even start that conversation. And then 20 years later they called.

**Craig:** Aw.

**John:** And so that is a fantasy when that happens. And recognizing that I’m probably a really good person to do that thing is always great when that can happen.

**Craig:** And I hope people hear the word “years” in there, because–

**John:** Oh yeah.

**Craig:** I mean, we’re talking 20 years. The amount of patience required is, mmm, it’s a lot.

**John:** I do want to get a little back to Andy’s framing of it, though, because we’re talking about like we have these remarkable opportunities which other people may not have. But you always have the choice of what you’re going to write. And in underlying our decisions about all this stuff is what Craig says about the thing that makes him levitate, to me it’s like what movie do I wish I could see that I can’t see. And that is always the framing behind the choices I make.

So, right when I was starting off as a writer I wrote something like Go because I really wanted to see Go and Go didn’t exist. And that is the kind of question you should be asking yourself as you’re thinking about the next thing to write.

**Craig:** Yeah. Just be patient but don’t be afraid. Think of that as you’re bowling in a bowling alley and you’ve got two gutters on either side. On the left side is I’m just rushing into things because I’m impatient. And the right gutter is I’m afraid of doing anything so I’m going to be pointlessly picky. You’ve got to figure out how to be somewhere in the middle to make that healthy decision. And if you have somebody that you can talk about it with who isn’t going to be endlessly bored by your obnoxious Hamlet-like dithering that can help, too.

So, you know, I’ve often Hamlet-like dithered to Scott Frank and vice versa. I find that he and I share a lot of the same just, oh you know, “Should I do it?” It’s like, oh, for the love of god. So we slap each other in the face and say, yes, or no. And it’s quite nice. [laughs]

**John:** I’ve gotten much better at saying no quickly, also. Someone will come to me with something and it’s like do I want to do that? And it’s like the answer is – I try to go for the hell yes or absolutely no.

**Craig:** Yeah. Yeah.

**John:** Let’s take a listener question that comes in audio form. We love when people attach their question in audio form. Here’s David from London.

David: Hey guys. I’ve got a question about writing the same material more than once. As I’m writing spec scripts and you hit that stage where you suddenly realize what stories you’re telling, I keep finding I’m writing the same story in different ways. They’re like different genres, different characters, different kinds of scenes, but the underlying heart of the piece turns out to be the same. So I discover I’m writing two stories about a child’s desire for respect from a parent. Or two explorations of toxic romance. It doesn’t repeat, so I’m not kind of endlessly writing the same story, but it’s kind of weird that it keeps happening without my meaning it to. And I just wondered if this was something that you recognized, something you’ve experienced, or if you fancy talking about it?

And just as a final comment, thanks so much for taking the time each week to do this. It’s so very much appreciated. Cheers guys.

**John:** Well, so first off, David from London, you are clearly the guy on Head Space, because that’s exactly the Head Space voice that you use there. So, thank you for talking me through my anxiety on a nightly basis.

I completely recognize what David is talking about. And I think what he’s describing is realizing that just like stories have themes, writers have themes that you come back to again, and again, and again. And if you look at any creative person’s work you’re going to find common things that sort of unite them no matter what genre they’re working in. There’s ideas that seem to be stuck in certain people’s heads. And for me almost every story I’ve told, every movie I’ve written, tends to be a character who is stuck between two worlds. And they have to find their way back to their original world or change that second world. But they’re all kind of exactly that. And you can chart them.

So it’s very natural. It’s also just sort of how a person’s brain works is that they’re going to gravitate towards certain grooves that are just there. And I say it’s good to be aware of it, but you don’t necessarily need to fight it.

**Craig:** Yeah. I actually think this is weirdly good news, David. Because this is an indication that there is an author. And John is right. There are themes that are going to emerge over and over. By the way, we forgive the artists that we appreciate on that are already working. We forgive this of them all the time. In fact, we kind of praise them for it. And then when we’re doing it ourselves we somehow start to doubt that this is a good thing. But it’s not. I mean, the important thing that you said is that the stories are not the same. They’re not repeating. It’s simply what they’re ultimately about that’s repeating.

So, many years ago, not before I was working on Chernobyl but before we ever shot Chernobyl, Marc Webb, the director who I was working with on another project, a script that I wrote for a feature, he said, “You know, it’s interesting when I look at the things you’re writing now they all turn on the difficulty that people have facing hard truths.” And I cannot explain how different this feature was from Chernobyl. I mean, on the surface 180 degrees different. But underneath, this kernel of the same thing.

And I feel it coming up over and over in everything I write. The way that you maybe feel this like caught between two worlds thing coming up over and over, I keep feeling this kind of difficulty we have dealing with hard truth. This is good. I think it’s good. So, the answer specifically, to answer your question, it is something I recognize. It is something I experience. And I don’t think it’s a problem. And, yes, if it changes over time that also is a sign that you are actually here as a human being and a simulation, although we all are simulations. I mean, to say you’re not a simulation within the simulation.

**John:** Absolutely.

**Craig:** You are no more of a simulation than I am.

**John:** To tie this back into our previous question, I think it also speaks to the project you write next is going to probably be the one that actually fits those grooves, just fits your brain properly. And so sometimes you’ll have ideas and you’ll say like, yeah, that’s a movie, but it’s not one of my movies. It’s just not a thing that I feel right writing. It’s not going to actually work correctly underneath my fingers. But I would totally see that movie. But it’s not a movie that I would actually make myself.

And that’s a crucial part of the decision-making process.

**Craig:** 100 percent. Let’s hear from Minnie. Minnie asks, “I’m writing a character who is an aspiring artist. Consequently, she decorates her room in posters of some of her favorite artists, not all of whom are famous or immediately recognizable but share a thematic connection to our protagonist. There is a poster that hangs in a prominent position in her bedroom and although I named the artist and title I wonder what I should do should the reader not immediately know the reference. If you were in my position would you describe the painting, or rely on the reader to be curious enough to look it up before or after the read?”

This is an excellent – I love this question, John. What do you think Minnie should be doing here?

**John:** So, what I think Minnie should be doing here in 2020 is describing the image in a way that is helpful to the reader, also making it clear if possible sort of how that ties into your aspiring artist’s goals/ambitions. Why it’s meaningful for her to have it there on the wall. That’s my answer for 2020.

I would say my answer for 2021/2022 is that you will probably a link in that script that links out to an image of that poster so people can see it. You can do that now, but it would be a little bit unusual to have that just in your PDF. But it’s doable. And it probably isn’t going to throw people for it to be there. But I think it’s increasingly going to be more common to see those kind of references there for things that are actually story important. Craig, what do you think?

**Craig:** Yeah. I feel like we’re almost done with 2020. Please, can we be done with 2020? So I’m going to go ahead and just jump to 2021. I think you can put it in the script. I mean, yes, you can absolutely put a link in now if you wanted and hope that somebody would click on it, but you can also just take a page of your script – so you make your PDF from the text and then you grab an image of that painting and any normal PDF program, even Preview you can do this, you just slot it into that PDF in the spot it belongs. So as they’re reading the script they get to page 89, or sorry in your case I’m sure it would be page 9, and it describes this painting. And you can even say see next page on it if you like, or they just turn the page and there’s the painting with a little bit of text underneath that says what the painting is. I think that would be enormously helpful actually.

Because the painting is important.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** It makes total sense to me. It’s the kind of thing that you should treat like very powerful spice. When a dish calls for it add it carefully. When it doesn’t, leave it out.

**John:** Yeah, for sure. I think it’s a thing right now you’re doing once, maybe twice in a script, and it really has to be for a very good reason. Rian Johnson does this in his script for Looper where there’s a very specific image that he needs you to be able to understand and see. Here’s the counter argument is that for the nearly 100 years of cinematic history somehow we’ve gotten by without sticking images in our scripts and it’s been OK. And somehow we’ve been able to make really good movies without doing it. So, it’s not essential, but if you feel like the ability for the reader to understand what’s happening there is super important that they see this image, I think we’re now at a place where we’re saying like just include the image.

**Craig:** Yeah. I think so. I think we’re there.

**John:** Cool. Another audio question. Let’s take a listen to Leigh.

**Leigh:** Hi Craig and John. My name is Leigh and I’m calling from Tallinn, Estonia, though I’m obviously British. First of all, thank you for the inspiring screenwriting education you’ve given me for free from Craig and for the small tiny payment for the Premium feed and t-shirts from John. You’ve started me on a journey that I hope to one day payback to other screenwriters.

My question may be difficult to answer, but that’s kind of why I’m asking you. I’m writing a feature set against a backdrop of real world historical events. It dramatizes the story of post-WWII resistance movement in the Baltics. I’m creating two fictional characters that will endure the real story from that time. So real events, fictional characters. Events are just insane and cinematic, but they just didn’t all happen to the same people, so I’m doing that bit.

My question is about how characters change in stories based within real events. So, Craig used a composite character in Chernobyl played by Emily Watson. Did you reverse engineer the events and then find the most appropriate character to endure them? How would you approach that for a leading character? I do know that in many stories, but not all, The King’s Speech being an outstanding example, but many real stories the characters don’t change much. And I think this is especially true of war movies. The world around them changes more than they do as they win or lose their battles.

So many thanks for any help you can offer in this and thanks for all you do.

**Craig:** Well that’s a very good question.

**John:** Craig, start us out, did you reverse engineer any stuff, especially this composite character based on the real events? How did you approach her since she wasn’t based on anybody real?

**Craig:** Well, she obviously, I created her to satisfy a narrative need, or else I wouldn’t have done it. What I understood from my research was that there were a lot of functions that various scientists were fulfilling. And all of them were important to represent. But it was not going to be narratively realistic to have them be so fragmented among eight, nine, 10 different people, some of whom come and then leave and never come back again. And I also wanted to be able to point out something about Soviet society that a lot of people aren’t familiar with which is that women actually did have a more progressive role in the science and medicine spaces in the Soviet Union than they did in the United States at the same time.

So, that created a need. And a solution became apparent. So I wasn’t reverse engineering anything because I wanted her to be there. She made sense to help me tell the story of things that happened. But her character, the way she is, that is my invention, obviously. And that exists that way because it serves a dramatic function vis-à-vis the character of Legasov that’s played by Jared Harris. She represents something to him. They have a relationship that is about conflict and then ultimately consensus and challenge and so forth. But she doesn’t change much. She’s not the protagonist. So, Leigh is asking a really interesting question about how – I mean, of course you can create fictional characters. Most historical drama uses fictional characters. Especially something like the story that he’s contemplating which is a terrific story but doesn’t necessarily feature – it’s not like you’re telling a story about London in WWII and you’re proposing that the Prime Minister is a guy named Cowell or something. We know it was Churchill, right? So that’s not like this.

They can change as much as you want them to, but your protagonist should change. That’s one of the aspects of drama. But they change in small ways. I mean, in The King’s Speech he does change. And he changes in part through friendship. And in his belief in what his role is. And so, you know, for you I would argue that you may be – I don’t want to say you’re overthinking things, but your main character has to change in some small way.

Yes, the world changes dramatically around them, but they are changed by it and also who they are in the beginning. There’s something that must be overcome. King’s Speech is actually a great example because the King was not supposed to be the King. His brother was supposed to be the King. But his brother abdicates the thrown and now the one with the stutter is King. And on some level he doesn’t think he should be. And then he does. And he triumphs and he does a great job in a moment where the nation needs a King. Very simple.

But that’s the kind of stuff that you need to at least consider when you’re looking at comparative dramas like The King’s Speech.

**John:** I want to say first off, Leigh, it’s so brave of you to say that you’re thinking about making this story against the backdrop of the WWII resistance movement in the Baltics because anyone listening to the show could steal your idea.

**Craig:** [laughs]

**John:** [laughs] And obviously rush off and make that. So, I mean, brave on that front. But as I was listening to your question all I could think about were counter examples. Because you talk about how in war films characters don’t change that much, and I think but they do. So you’re a Premium member, so I know you have access to the back catalog. Take a listen to the episode I did with Sam Mendes and Krysty Wilson-Cairns about 1917. There you have set against the backdrop of the First World War, but it’s very much a character protagonist story going through it. And it works like an adventure story, a thriller, but it’s set against this backdrop. And it is entirely doable.

So, if the story that you’re proposing to tell is really a broad spectrum, like let’s talk about the Baltics, then yeah maybe it’s harder to get your characters to be driving that story. But within that framework I just say pick the story that actually has characters who do fascinating things and let that be the world in which your story is happening rather than the story itself.

**Craig:** Yea. You’re going to do fine. The fact that you’re even asking the question is a good sign. People are asking good questions today. I like these questions. Wait, surely there will be a bad one. Let’s see if the next one is.

**John:** This one is great. I actually texted you about this. So, Anonymous writes, “I’m wondering if you two know anything about the rights to works written while married and how they are handled in divorce. I am an amateur writer and have not yet made any money off my work, but if the wife and I were to split could she make a community property claim since they were written during the marriage? I know you’re not lawyers and this is probably state specific, but I was just wondering if you had any experience or knowledge of this issue.”

And so Craig I texted you and you did not have any firsthand knowledge.

**Craig:** No. No. All I know is that this dude is getting divorced. [laughs]

**John:** There’s a reason he’s anonymous.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** So, I asked a divorce lawyer and she wrote back and this is what she said. She said, “This is very common these days. The actual script is community property. The control though goes to the writer. Any potential proceeds could be a mix of community property and separated property depending on the labor, skill, and effort required to monetize the IP. He may need to rewrite or spend many hours selling this script. A script most times is worthless as is.” So basically saying it is community property to the degree to which you wrote it during the time you were married, but obviously there’s a lot of work that’s probably happening after that.

She goes on to say, “Many times we agree in the dissolution judgment to just reserve jurisdiction over how the IP asset is handled and determine that later. Most times nothing comes of it. It is preferable though to address and confirm the script is his separated property in the judgment to avoid later having to address this. The Amadeus movie is a perfect example. The wife came back later.”

And so had you heard about the Amadeus divorce and what that whole situation was?

**Craig:** I have not. Tell me about it. Dish.

**John:** So I didn’t either, so I had to follow up on it. So Saul Zaentz is the producer of Amadeus. He’s a big producer. Did a lot of other things. But he owned Amadeus during the marriage and then it got produced afterwards and the wife in the divorce came back later and said, “Oh, the value of that happened during our marriage so therefore I’m entitled to more money.” So post-divorce she was able to come back and claim that. And actually did get some money from that.

So, we’ll put a link in the show notes to the actual case findings of it which is interesting. But what I love most about the case was footnote number five in this finding said, “The Hollywood film industry is seemingly hesitant to make what is known as ‘costume dramas.’” And so this is back from like 1982 or whenever this was.

**Craig:** Well, it’s true.

**John:** It’s true.

**Craig:** No, it’s true. I also like this line, I’m just looking through it now. Under the heading “The Project Financing.” Because I mean part of it was that essentially she was saying, look, I think it was worth this. And he’s like it’s not worth that. “Project Financing. It is no hyperbole to describe the relevant financial history as a circuitous journey through a labyrinth of interlocking and interrelated corporate entities, family trusts, and closely owned holding companies.” That sure does sound like the entertainment business. Oh, god, what a swamp.

**John:** All right, so let’s get back to Anonymous and sort of our advice to Anonymous I think would be, yeah, you should anticipate that certainly based in California which is the lawyer I was talking to it will be considered community property. If you are going to get divorced it’s worth thinking about the stuff, but it’s not going to be unprecedented to sort of just push that aside.

In most cases it really won’t matter.

**Craig:** Yeah, sorry.

**John:** But it could.

**Craig:** Yeah, I mean–

**John:** I’m also sorry about your marriage.

**Craig:** Yeah, what she’s saying is she’s saying nothing is going to happen with that script. That’s what she’s literally saying. But it could. But it could. And so that makes sense. They’re like, yeah, OK, this is so speculative we’ll just boot it down the line. Good luck. We’re all counting on you.

**John:** Let’s do two more. These are actually good, quick answers. So let’s try this.

**Craig:** All right. Well we have formatting a misdirect. David writes, “I’m writing a boy meets girl two-hander. I have both characters on a bus talking with their sidekick friend. I want to set it up to feel like it’s the same bus but it’s not. Does each scene/bus need its own header? That would ruin the experience of mystery for the reader, but combining it into one scene feels like sloppy writing.” John, what do you think about this formatting question?

**John:** I think David is asking exactly the right question and what he’s anticipating is that you want the experience for the reader to be as close as possible to the experience of the viewer. And so my instinct for this would be don’t necessarily make it a whole separate scene header. But I would say Right Side of Bus, and then we have the conversation with these two friends. And then Left Side of Bus. So as a viewer we’re going to anticipate like, oh, they must be on the same bus because he’s saying right side/left side. And then when it is revealed that they’re on two separate buses that may be a situation where you do want to bold face or underline, make it clear that they really were on separate buses, because as a viewer we’ll understand that.

But you’re asking the right question. And the best solution is to do something that feels like what the movie is going to feel like and don’t worry about separate scene headers.

**Craig:** Yeah, just generally good advice. Formatting misdirect, misdirect. That’s what the advice is. Right? So you can do what John said. You can even just say that this one is talking to this one and then in a different seat this one is talking to this one. The important thing is that when you do reveal you say, oh, these are not – we thought these were the same buses but in fact they are not. Just say, da-da, magic trick. So that the reader who ideally is someone who understands how movies are made and is not just an audience member goes, OK, I see the trick you’re doing. We are all magicians. We understand you were palming that. Got it. Thank you.

So just, yeah, just misdirect. That’s it. Simple as that.

**John:** So, when it comes time for the line producer, first AD to do the schedule they’ll grumble a little bit because they’ll have to figure out how many pages to assign to each setup situation.

**Craig:** They’ll fix it. They’ll fix it.

**John:** They’ll figure it out.

**Craig:** What they’ll do is they’ll just go through and they’ll give those things, because at that point the misdirect doesn’t matter anymore. You win. You convinced people to make the movie. At that point they’ll put in new things and they’ll make scene numbers as they desire. That’s up to them.

**John:** Great. A question from Adam who writes, “I’m writing a story that is set in another galaxy, or a distant future. But what is the best way to describe the character? Do I want to keep the reader in the same story and try to be poetic? For example, Wood, 40, looks like the Samoans of old earth. Or should I simply write it for casting? Wood, 40, Samoan. Even though he’s from a made up planet that is nowhere near Samoa.”

So really he’s talking about the idea of race and identity based on current expectations when it doesn’t really make sense for the situation.

**Craig:** I’ll tell you what I did for the script I wrote for Borderlands. I had a little opening page after the title page, before the movie began, that basically said here’s what you need to know. People can be any race that we know of. It doesn’t matter, so I’m not going to tell you what they are. Just presume a wide variety. And in fact in this place race is not relevant.

You can also just say I’m going to refer to people in terms people might understand for casting purposes, even though of course no one in this movie has heard of Samoa or Earth or our galaxy at all. You can just sort of get it out of the way in the front if you want.

Because I actually agree that if you say Wood, 40, Samoan, it is going to kind of make me go, “Huh?” Is there a planet Samo in this movie? Or does he mean Samoa like Samoan here on Earth? So, yeah, I think make a statement. And then–

**John:** And then he’s good. There’s a project I’m working on where I have a very similar kind of statement. It’s a fantasy world. And I basically just say at the start people’s races don’t match up the way we expect and we deliberately we should not even try to make sure that brothers and sisters don’t need to match our expectation of race. And that we are distinguishing these cultures by clothing but not by perceived race.

**Craig:** In that thing I wrote just to try and make it entertaining in and of itself I just said, “In this galaxy people just don’t give a damn about your skin color at all. Except there is one planet where the people have this beautiful constantly changing iridescent skin and everybody thinks they’re the most amazing things in the world. And everybody just worships them, except for those privileged people. No one cares what your skin looks like.” And when they were talking about making the movie and they’re like budgeting they’re like, well, we’ve got to figure out how we’re doing those people from the planet. And I’m like they’re not in the movie. [laughs] Argh. That happens more often than you think.

**John:** Everything that’s on the page has to be there somewhere. They’re like theater people. They’re just taking it far too literally.

**Craig:** Yes. Yes.

**John:** It was kind of fun. We ran out of time for our subtext question, or did we? We’ll never know.

**Craig:** Oh, hmm.

**John:** Maybe the subtext was that we never needed to answer the question.

**Craig:** Whoa.

**John:** Quickly I want to go through two little bits of follow up. Zach wrote in to say, “After listening to Episode 463 on action and seeing how Near Dark was formatted it made me think about this spec script that CAA is currently taking out and was subbed to us at our production company. I believe Craig has talked about this before, but the formatting is original and being a buyer I actually enjoyed how they changed it up from the normal formatting, especially because it was clean and clear. It’s super kooky. It has pictures and drawings throughout. The action is written like Near Dark. And scene headings are done in green like a Dan Gilroy script.”

So, Craig, I threw it in the folder so you could take a look at it. It is goofy, but it has sort of like a kid’s book, like a picture book feel to it which is appropriate for sort of the genre. So if you’re doing that script maybe it’s fine. I guess it offers me some vision for sort of what the movie feels like. I don’t know that it makes me more likely to make the movie. But it does stick out.

**Craig:** If you try interesting, kooky things in a script that people like, they will like your kooky things. They will give you credit for being interesting and innovative. And if they don’t like the script you’re just breaking rules and you stink. It is literally just–

**John:** It’ll feel like a gimmick. Yeah.

**Craig:** Yeah. It’s just the quality of the story. And if it is a good story then things like pictures and drawings and stuff like that will enhance it. They will. Because people will want more, as in they will want the movie. And if it’s not and they’re bored then you’re just putting something that they didn’t want on food they don’t like. So, who wants that? Nobody.

**John:** Funny how that happens.

**Craig:** Nobody.

**John:** Benjamin, he wrote in to say that one of John’s One Cool Things was the new Mythic Odysseys of Theros source book for D&D. And he says Theros is actually the setting for the Match of the Gathering universe that was adapted to fit the rules of fifth edition D&D, which I kind of knew but kind of forgot to say when I was giving that as my One Cool Thing.

He goes on to say, “What’s even better is that Wizards put out a new series of articles called Plane Shift where you can bring your D&D game to a number of Magic the Gathering worlds.” So I’ll put links in the show notes to these. But, Craig, those are all clickable links. They’re so cool. And so there’s an Ancient Egypt one. There’s a sort of standard medieval fantasy. Gothic horror. This one looks great, so it’s 17th Century exploration. There’s these vampire conquistadores. There’s pirates. There’s mer folk. There’s dinosaurs.

So, anyway I love sort of the variety of worlds that they are trying to lay out for you and getting away from the very classic Tolkien-ish medieval fantasy stuff. Anyway, I just want to put those out there as examples of world-building for the sake of world-building.

**Craig:** You can tell that they are widening their palette as it were. And becoming aware, in a good way, of the breadth of the kinds of people that are starting to play D&D. And so why not? I mean, the more the merrier.

**John:** I love it. Our last bit of follow up today is a correction. Back in our episode on writing action we talked about Black Panther, but I forgot to include its co-writer J.R. Cole in the outline. That’s my mistake. I emailed Joe to apologize. We’ve also updated the PDF and the transcript. Now, onto our One Cool Things.

Craig, my One Cool Thing feels like it should be a you One Cool Thing because it’s the Batman teaser trailer which has–

**Craig:** I know.

**John:** –a puzzle in it which was quickly solved. And it feels so up your alley.

**Craig:** It is. So Mike Selinker is somebody that I’ve known for a bit through Twitter. He wrote a former One Cool Thing of mine called the Maze of Games. Do you remember Maze of Games?

**John:** I do. Yeah.

**Craig:** So that was Mike. He’s great. And he cracked this. And I believe that my retweet of it was what popularized it. I’m going to take credit for this because–

**John:** You absolutely should. Because you have a giant Twitter following now, which is great.

**Craig:** You know, listen. I’m a Selinker booster. He’s great. And it was a really good walkthrough of how you crack a simple–

**John:** Yeah, I really enjoyed his thread.

**Craig:** It’s a cryptogram. It’s pretty standard puzzle thing. And there are basically standard ways of doing it. And what I liked about what he did was he did it by hand. It’s incredibly easy to take that cipher, put it in a crypto quote breaker online and it just brute forces it. And it will give it to you within seconds. But he walked you through the logic behind it. And the logic was great. And it was also hats off to the Batman people. It was good, punny answer to the little riddle.

**John:** Yeah. We won’t spoil it, but I thought it was nicely done.

**Craig:** Yes. You can tell they’re working with puzzle people. You can tell. They’re working with puzzle people. So that was fun.

**John:** That felt like a you One Cool Thing. My other One Cool Thing is these swim goggles that I got that I actually really like a lot. So most swimming goggles they just don’t fit my face right. They leak or they put a big groove in my nose. But Mike got me these swim goggles that are actually really good and they’re cheap and they’re on Amazon. So, it’s a company called Zionor. I don’t know what that company actually is. The reviews were good on Amazon.

**Craig:** Zionor.

**John:** And they were inexpensive. And when you have good goggles you can just see so well under water. It’s amazing. So, if you’re looking for goggles that seem good and don’t scratch and are polarized so you can really see everything well, I’d recommend this brand of swim goggles.

**Craig:** Zionor sounds like the planet that you’re from.

**John:** It does sound like my home planet. Or perhaps it is the – are there Samoan people on Zionor? That’s really the question.

**Craig:** There are not. There are no people on it. There’s just inorganic life forms who are like, “Goggles help you see under water.” That’s how I know that you don’t really have eyes. I’m onto you man. I’m onto you.

My One Cool Thing is also D&D related. Dungeons & Dragons has announced another rules expansion book called Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything.

**John:** I’m so excited.

**Craig:** Yes! So in D&D there are some spells that are named after famous wizards. They are probably no longer with us, although I suppose some of them maybe are wandering around on some demi plane above us, like Mordenkainen or Otiluke.

**John:** Or [unintelligible].

**Craig:** Or Big B. Yes. And then there’s Tasha. Tasha who is most famous for Tasha’s hideous laughter. And she has inspired some of the great spells of all time. And anyway Tasha apparently has a Cauldron of Everything, which is a great name, and in it – so D&D keeps sort of expanding subclasses, character options, new spells, new rules. It’s so much. And it’s a little daunting, especially if you’re a DM because it wasn’t like there was a fairly limited range of things that your players could do. So as a DM you kind of need to learn everybody’s character and everybody’s stuff. And you’re like, oh boy, here we go again.

But, you know, some of that stuff is great. I find that a lot of the new stuff that they’re putting out tends in my mind, tends to be a little bit overpowered, which is interesting. So we’ll see how it works with Tasha’s. But I’m going to get it. I’m going to read it.

**John:** Of course.

**Craig:** It’s got magical tattoos in it, man.

**John:** Come on. Who would not want a magical tattoo?

**Craig:** Come on. I want one.

**John:** Yeah. That is our show for this week. Stick around after the credits if you’re a Premium member because we will talk about headshots and getting our photos taken. But in general that is the show. Scriptnotes is produced by Megana Rao. It is edited by Matthew Chilelli. Our outro this week is by Rajesh Naroth. Welcome back Rajesh.

If you have an outro you can send us a link to ask@johnaugust.com. That’s also the place where you can send longer questions. For short questions on Twitter Craig is @clmazin. I’m @johnaugust. We have t-shirts and they’re great. You can find them at Cotton Bureau. We just put up a new t-shirt which was based on a quote of mine from Frankenweenie about science. So, we’ll put a link in the show notes to the new science shirt that we have up there.

You’ll find the show notes for this episode and all episodes at johnaugust.com. That’s also where you’ll find transcripts. We try to get them up about four days after the episode airs.

You can sign up to become a Premium member at Scriptnotes.net where you get all the back episodes and bonus segments. And, Craig, thanks for a fun show.

**Craig:** Thank you, John.

[Bonus segment]

**John:** Westworld. OK. Let’s talk about headshots. And this came to me as a topic because this last week it was announced that I’m writing this movie with Ryan Reynolds.

**Craig:** Congratulations, by the way.

**John:** Thank you. I’m excited to be doing that. And so we decided to actually place the story and put it in Deadline because we didn’t want it kind of coming out accidentally and we wanted to control it a little bit more about making sure that the log line wasn’t out or wasn’t billed as something that we didn’t want it to be. And so doing it this way I could actually say like which photo I wanted to use because in general whenever I show up in the trades I hate the photos that they pick. And there’s some decent photos of me out there, but there’s some really terrible ones. And the one that they default to is always this thing from when I got this DGA award. And I’m wearing this tux and my hands are really big. It feels super goofy. And so I wanted to control which photo they used.

**Craig:** Now I’m looking for that one right now.

**John:** Oh, you’ve got to look for that one.

**Craig:** Yeah. I want to see it. Let’s see. Images. Oh, yeah, there it is. You’re so happy in it.

**John:** Yeah, it’s natural to be happy.

**Craig:** Your hands don’t look enormous. They look proportionate.

**John:** Well, there’s a couple ones there. So there’s the ones where I’m sort of touching myself.

**Craig:** Oh?

**John:** And there’s one where my hands are out.

**Craig:** Oh my.

**John:** I’m touching my chest.

**Craig:** Oh. Well I’m less interested. I have to turn my filter off I suppose to find that other one. [laughs]

**John:** [laughs] If you search “John August tuxedo.” But if you look for “John August headshot” let’s see which ones are there. Some decent ones here. So the fourth one across, the one I ended up picking, basically I liked that one, which is me in front of greenery. My friend Dustin Box took that. It’s actually my author photo for the Arlo Finch books and it feels fully appropriate for those situations.

**Craig:** You’re slightly smizing there. Right?

**John:** Yeah. Slightly smizing is the goal there.

**Craig:** Yeah. A slight smize.

**John:** Like I think many people I have a hard time, when you tell me to smile I will smile in a really strange way. And so then I default to a way of sort of deliberately not smiling and then I look way too serious.

**Craig:** Right. No, of course.

**John:** So, finding that balance is tough.

**Craig:** I mean, that is a direct challenge to whether or not you’re a human. I think that legitimately is like that’s the – what is it, the Voight-Kampff test from Blade Runner? Smile. [laughs]

**John:** Smile. You have to smile. I also love that if I google “John August headshot” the sixth photo across is actually John Logan.

**Craig:** Right. That’s kind of a slap in the face.

**John:** It is a slap in the face.

**Craig:** It’s like, you know what, you probably meant John Logan. John Logan, one of the best screenwriters working today for sure. And so, yeah, you don’t want John Logan popping up. It’s like, come on, they wanted me, for sure. For sure.

**John:** So, now I’m googling “Craig Mazin headshot” and let’s see what we get.

**Craig:** All right.

**John:** So I feel like this first shot is a new shot that you put out there. Is that correct? Because you have a beard.

**Craig:** That one was taken right around when I guess for the publicity, in advance of the publicity of Chernobyl.

**John:** Great. And the one next to it is the WGA awards one as well. Tuxedo. Looks good and handsome. The fourth one over is from many, many years ago. You’re younger but a much heavier person as well.

**Craig:** Yes.

**John:** So that’s not one they should be using.

**Craig:** Well, I mean, they can if they want. It’s stupid. It’s like 12, 13 years old. 12 years old? I don’t know how long ago that was. But I admire my tent-like shirt, you know. That’s nice. [laughs]

**John:** It is a tent-like shirt. But the sixth photo across is from our 100th Anniversary and that was a fun night and it’s the happiest I’ve seen you in many of these photos.

**Craig:** Yeah. Well, it’s interesting. The one just to the left of it, which is also from the Writers Guild Award does seem like a very similar, it’s like the same face but with beard.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** But I like – let’s see, the seventh picture if you search for my headshot is you.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** But not John Logan.

**John:** There’s no one else sort of quite like that. So, let’s segue from talking about ourselves to maybe some practical advice on this. People ask like, oh, as a writer do I need to get a headshot? And here’s the argument for it. At some point hopefully you will sell something and there will be a good reason to actually use that headshot. If you were to go and spend the $200 to actually get a good-looking headshot it could serve you well. And it’s nice when a story is run about you to actually have a good-looking photo so you don’t just hate the story. So that’s an argument for it. That’s great.

Does it need to be a professional headshot? Not necessarily. But it also just shouldn’t be some random selfie that you took. There’s a certain way that headshots in the trades look and you want it to fit generally that. So either it’s a head-on shot that is professionally taken, or it’s something like these WGA shots where you’re at an event and it’s on the red carpet or it’s some official situation.

**Craig:** Yeah. And those shots are the ones that the trades will default to if you don’t have something that you’re publicity person is sending in. When they are writing articles about you, so your thing was a press release. So when they get a press release they get the photo and they get the copy. Obviously they do what they want with the copy. But they generally will take that photo and use it. But when they’re writing an article about you that you are not putting out there they’ll grab whatever photo they want, because they don’t own your photo. They can’t use it without your permission. So you will end up usually with something from a red carpet or something like that.

If you don’t have anything like that then you may end up with one of those just rando photos. It’s a nice thing to have. We live in a time now where everyone has a headshot. I mean, I feel almost – because when you and I started in the business it was like a thing. You hire a photographer. And now with the cameras we have built into our phones and filtering and all the rest, I mean, my daughter could – I think my daughter has self-made a hundred headshots with her $23 ring light and all the rest of it. Everybody has become a headshot expert. Except for me. I still have no idea how to do it. None Zero.

**John:** General advice I’ve just learned from red carpets. And while there are some terrible photos of me on red carpets there are some that are actually not so bad. And what I’ve learned is that you actually have to look into the camera. You have to look down the barrel of the lens. And so you would think that like, oh, looking generally in that direction. But, no, your actual eye placement matters a lot.

Imagine you’re looking at the censor inside the camera. That’s actually connection. And that’s a thing you should aim for. And try to be natural and thinking about where your face is in relation to the lens helps some. But there’s going to be some bad shots and hopefully there will be some better shots. There’s a couple shots that are on the wire image or Getty images that are actually pretty good and I’ve actually considered buying and taking because they’re like better shots of me than I have from any other purpose. Maybe I should just do that.

**Craig:** I don’t know. Just feels like I’m buying myself?

**John:** You know, actually, what kills me is the best shot I’ve gotten in the last five years has been for this special feature that Apple did on Weekend Read and Highland. And so they came to the house. They had a photographer who flew down from San Francisco. It was like an hour’s worth of shooting in the garage here. And the photos were fantastic, but I cannot find those photos anywhere online. They were basically only in the App Store for the thing. And I want to be able – I can’t even find a credit for that photographer. Because I want to be able to just buy those photos and have them be my headshot. But I can’t.

**Craig:** It’s odd that Apple would have some sort of control over what you see or don’t see on the Internet.

**John:** Funny how that all works. And so Craig next time you announce a major project what photo would you like them to use of you? Which is your favorite? The new one?

**Craig:** Yeah. We did it so that I would have a headshot.

**John:** The headshot that you’re using now, so this is a headshot where you’re looking straight at us. Green soft background. I think you probably are outside.

**Craig:** Yes.

**John:** It’s not a fake backdrop.

**Craig:** That’s right.

**John:** And you look a little serious. You look a little Rob Reiner-ish if that’s not offensive. You look like a person who–

**Craig:** Chubby Jew? [laughs] I mean, you can just say Chubby Jew. You’re allowed to. I’ll let you say it.

**John:** But I would say this also looks like a writer, but it also looks like a person who can be cast as Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof. So, I think it does both of those things.

**Craig:** I mean, come on. I’m obviously the right choice. I’m obviously the right choice.

**John:** So I’m clicking it to make it bigger and I also say that you look like your age, but it also looks like a slightly optimized version of your age. It’s just slightly softened in ways that are flattering, which is appropriate.

**Craig:** I think that’s probably right. I mean, I don’t know exactly what they do. It doesn’t look particularly Photoshopped to me in the sense that I can still see some stubble and stuff and I have wrinkles, which I do in fact have. Somebody did a deep dive on this photo. Went into the eyeballs and like there are white things in your eyeballs. What is happening in there? And the answer is that that is the white bounce card that the photographer–

**John:** Yeah, it’s the bounce card. So it’s below and it’s pushing light up. And because the way your eyes work is, if I look at all these other photos, we can barely ever see your eyes because they’re set pretty deep in there and they’re little dark slits. So in order to see your eyes at all.

**Craig:** I’m pretty squinty. Yeah, I’m a squinty guy. When I smile – my daughter does this same exact thing. When I smile my eyes tend to just disappear. But there’s a couple photos of me where my eyes are wide open. That usually means I’m horrified. So just so you know if you see my eyes wide opened.

**John:** What has happened?

**Craig:** That means that I’m absolutely horrified by something.

**John:** Ah, good stuff.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** All right, Craig. Thanks for talking through this.

**Craig:** Thanks, John.

 

Links:

* [Pete Micelli/Steve Cohen Management Launch Adds WME’s Rich Cook, UTA’s Roussos, Fox, Mckinnies, Moorhead To CAA’s Whigham, Sullivan, Bugliari, Cooper](https://deadline.com/2020/08/pete-micelli-caa-agents-jack-whigham-mick-sullivan-david-bugliari-michael-cooper-new-production-mangement-venture-1203021172/)
* [The Great Agency Exodus: Top Reps Flee the Majors As Management Civil War Looms](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/the-great-agency-exodus-top-reps-flee-the-majors-as-management-civil-war-looms)
* [After Agency Exodus, New Firm Pitches Investors On Star-Driven Production “Cash Cow” (Exclusive)](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/after-agency-exodus-new-firm-pitches-investors-on-star-driven-production-cash-cow)
* [Batman Teaser](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blN6BrhVKyU)
* [Mike Selinker on Twitter](https://twitter.com/mikeselinker/status/1297590513730650112)
* [Zionor Swim Goggles](https://amzn.to/2EFZghH)
* [Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything](https://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/tashas-cauldron-everything)
* [Get a Scriptnotes T-shirt!](https://cottonbureau.com/people/scriptnotes-podcast)
* [John August](https://twitter.com/johnaugust) on Twitter
* [Craig Mazin](https://twitter.com/clmazin) on Twitter
* [John on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/johnaugust/?hl=en)
* [Outro](http://johnaugust.com/2013/scriptnotes-the-outros) by Rajesh Naroth ([send us yours!](http://johnaugust.com/2014/outros-needed))
* Scriptnotes is produced by Megana Rao and edited by Matthew Chilelli.

Email us at ask@johnaugust.com

You can download the episode [here](http://traffic.libsyn.com/scriptnotes/466standard.mp3).