The original post for this episode can be found here.
John August: Hello and welcome. My name is John August and you’re listening to episode 699 of Scriptnotes. It’s a podcast about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters.
Today on the show, before you begin pitching a project, you need to be able to pitch yourself. How do you do it without sounding like an egotistical jerk? We somehow spent nearly 700 episodes without really digging into this topic. Luckily, it was brought to us by one of our favorite returning guests, the wonderful Pamela Ribon. Welcome back, Pamela.
Pamela Ribon: Thanks. It’s always nice to be back.
John: Now for folks who don’t have their cheat sheets open, let’s remind them of the projects you’ve written on including Moana, Nimona, and your Academy-nominated short film and a wonderful thing many times, My Year of Dicks. Let’s also talk about underemployment because this is something a lot of our listeners are encountering now, especially our writer listeners. My friend Ryan suggested we discuss some of the pernicious effects that not working has on our choices but also the opportunities that are presented by the times that you’re not working. Especially if you know you’re not working for a certain period of time, that can actually be liberating. We’ll dig into that.
We have listener questions. Since I have you and our bonus segment for premium members, I want to talk a little meta conversation about podcasts because you are a podcaster yourself. I am looking at your podcast set up here on the Zoom and I’m so happy to see it. As we approach episode 700, we’re talking about making some changes around here and I would love your thoughts on that. We have Scriptnotes episode 700 coming up next week and we’re going to do a live show on YouTube. It’s happening tomorrow, Wednesday, August 13th at 10AM Pacific Standard. If you want to watch us live on YouTube, just subscribe to the Scriptnotes podcast and you’ll get a little alert when it’s happening.
Pamela: I love that I’m on the odometer rollover. The 699. We’re getting there.
John: It’s the eve of the 700. It’s setting us up for success. Drew, we have some follow-up.
Drew Marquardt: We do. Some listeners wrote in that a former How Would This Be A Movie article from way back in episode 348, the Rent-A-Family industry in Japan. It looks like it’s being made into a movie. It’s called Rental Family starring Brendan Fraser.
John: Great. We’ll put a link to the trailer in the show notes. I watched the trailer and I think that’s what we expected, although I wasn’t expecting it to be a white guy in Japan doing the thing. I thought that we would move the whole concept over to here instead it’s a large white guy serving as a token white guy in this movie. They’re addressing it in the trailer that he’s the one American who’s being placed into these family situations.
Pamela: Awesome. One of the co-writers here, Hikari, was my cohort when I did the film Independent Director’s Lab.
John: Oh my gosh.
Pamela: She’s awesome. She actually made the film that she went into the director’s lab with. It’s called 32 Seconds. I don’t remember how many seconds. It came out a couple of years ago. I also tried to get this project. I had a pitch. I was thrown in the mix. I was in the thing. It’s very scripted.
John: Can you tell us more about this because this is being released by Searchlight, but what was the process behind this?
Pamela: First you let people know like, “Hey, I found this article. I think it’s going to be a thing and I’d like to see if I can be involved in however it’s getting adapted.” Then they–Boy, this is so long ago so I’m trying to remember how it went this time. Sometimes you just hear like, “Oh no, Lucky Chap has it.” You’re like, “Okay. Bye. Thanks. Of course.” I think in this one, it was like, “Do you have someone that you could attach to with this? Is there a company already that would do this with you?” Because I’m nobody. I can’t remember because this one went very quickly. By the time I was interested in trying to gather a group, there were big people going out with this.
I think that eventually it was just I didn’t move the needle enough to be in the runner-ups for the next top screenwriter. Here it is.
John: It seems like it was probably a long journey to get there. It’s based on the same article but you don’t know everything that happened along the way behind the scenes. Maybe as it comes closer to getting released, we might get some more backstory. I’m just curious what the journey was and how it got to Hikari.
Pamela: I just remember thinking like, “This is such an interesting concept.” I’m sure mine was more in the vein of her or something like that where it was like, “You don’t really care for your life anymore so why don’t you just go be the person that other people need at these moments?” I remember pitching like, “Please, can you fire this person for me? I don’t want to do it.” That kind of stuff.
John: All right. Let’s get to our main topic, which is the topic you brought us. We actually have a question from a listener that sets this up perfectly true.
Drew: Charles writes, I’ve written a pilot and I’m fortunate enough to have gotten some general meetings from it. For all intents and purposes, I’m no one and they know nothing about me. What are the best practices or tips for starting a meeting? You sign on to Zoom and you’re suddenly met with a face and now you have to be interesting. When you’re no one, you can’t count on them knowing anything about you and it’s weird if too much about them. What are some general tips to ease into the general meeting?
John: Pamela Ribon, you’ve actually done workshops on this, like how to talk about yourself as a writer. I’d love to see this conversation to you if you want to direct us here.
Pamela: Sure.
John: What is your best advice for someone in Charles’s situation and really any writer who’s going into a situation where you have to talk about yourself.
Pamela: I like to talk about this topic whenever it’s film festival masterclasses or whatever because this is the thing that you have to do first. Sometimes before you’ve even written something, you have to talk to people about writing and if you want to write or that you have written and what are you going to write next? I find a lot of people start by apologizing for even feeling this way, for having a dream or for having accomplished a script and they’re like, “It’s just this thing. I don’t know. It’s whatever. I don’t know. It’s dumb.” Even in this question, it’s weird if you know too much about them.
You’re having a meeting. Knowing a lot about them shows that you did your homework. You’re excited to meet them. You’re equipped. I know we talk about like it’s a first date but it’s not. We’re not going to keep dating. There’s not like, am I attracted to this person or is that how they always dress? It’s more about how does this flow fit? When they ask me a question about myself, do I feel comfortable answering it? When they answer a question that I have, do I feel like they’re looking at me and talking to me? Do I feel like a real person in this room? These are basic questions that– In a general you can get yourself too hyped up to even bother to look for.
John: Somebody said there, I really want to pull apart is that you think back to a first date and if someone asks you about yourself on a first date, you’re going to come out with a set of answers that make you look good along a certain axis. You’re not going to get the same answers in a general meeting that you would on a first date. It’s a positioning thing you’re trying to do. You’re trying to explain to them who you are, what you’d like to write, why you wrote this thing, why you’re there. It’s good to practice this. If you’re giving a masterclass, you’re talking to people about this, what are your first bits of advice for the things they need to come into the room ready to say?
Pamela: What I usually do is we just have a general in front of the rest of the class. Someone brave enough to go first, I say, “You’re going to walk in here and I’ll already be seated, you’re going to come in like you’ve walked into my office.” Then you just do it because they figure it out. You walk in, you’re like, “Hey, how are you doing? Do you need anything? You want some water? Did anybody get you coffee?” You sit down and then you small talk. Was it hard getting here? Oh, it’s hot today. All the things we do at the top of a general, which at the top of a Zoom– Just so I’m also modern.
It’s the same way you make sure that you’re looking at the green light every once in a while so that you’re making the closest eye contact as you can make. You make sure that you’re comfortable, that you have water, that you have all the things you need. You start with whatever. Like we did when we first logged on of, here’s what traffic situation I was just in and here’s how things are going. Then, you gradually find yourself moving into the topic of why are we really here? Sometimes they start it where if they’ve read something of yours or someone recommended they meet you, that’s a kindness that they may do but you may start because a lot about it and you can start with, “I just saw this, I loved it.”
That’s enough to get things going. If they’re not giving you anything back, this isn’t a great room and you can learn very quickly. I don’t have to sweat here. We’re not going to work out. Like you said, you’re not going to give the same answer as on a first date but I know enough that when people go, “I don’t know anything about.” You can say, “Oh, I can do that.” I moved around a lot. I went to 13 schools and then I moved my way into the early internet and the older net. Then, that started me getting into rooms and I did comedy rooms and sitcoms for a while until I got the call from Disney. I just did so many years.
John: Some good at heavy lifting there. I liked as it showed a journey and it showed like, “Oh, if they’re curious about any bits of that, they can jump back to talk about that.” What were those early rooms like? What were you doing in those places?
Pamela: What shows or where did you end up? What was your last school? We can start by Austin. People in LA really like to talk about Austin.
John: They do.
Pamela: You can do that. Sometimes you’re talking about people you know in common. That thing of like someone said I should meet you or I saw that thing and it was great.
John: Or I see that you’re working with this director. I had a great experience with them or what this is. In some cases it’s the subtly coded like, “That director’s challenging for these reasons. I hope you’re having a great experience.” I love them. It’s also challenging on this thing.
Pamela: Finding your mutuals is a nice– When you have found your mutuals, you learn a lot about them too. Like, “Oh, I love her. She’s great. No, I haven’t met him.” Even just the things you’ve seen. They often ask, what are you reading right now? It’s not quite small talk, it’s medium talk because it’s small talk with cues of, do we think that one day when we’re arguing over a plot point, we’re going to get to a place together because we actually are on the same wavelength. Sometimes that just flies by and all of a sudden an hour has happened because you ended up talking about anything from Taylor Swift to some new app you’re playing with.
You never know where it’ll go. Being flexible with the time or just being free to explore wherever this conversation’s going to go and not get nervous about what you did or did not talk about. You don’t need to put that pressure on yourself. You can have an agenda of I really want to make sure I mention this one thing but you can’t script it.
John: Many episodes ago, Craig and I were talking through this article and we’ll try to find a link to the actual original article. The writer was talking about how good conversations have doorknobs and handles. Basically, there’s ways you can open and keep going. It’s about making sure that you’re providing them things like your bio of all the schools you went to, all the things. You’re giving them handholds that they can pull on and actually keep the thing going. In some of the early general meetings I had, I just didn’t get the flow of it quite right.
I would answer questions without lobbing it back so that they could do the next thing or really that I could ask questions about what it is that they’re looking for. Because if the meeting’s going well at a certain point it does transition into like, “Here’s what we’re working on and here are things that might be a good fit for you.” That’s the dream situation. Other cases it’s just like, “What are the general areas in which we might have some overlap there.” Things that they’re looking for, if it’s an actor’s production company, like what is that actor seeking? If it’s a director, what things never cross the line for that director? That place you’re hoping to get to in these conversations.
Pamela: I used to always have prepared screenplays I wish I had written.
John: For sure.
Pamela: Because that lets them know and let it be varied if it’s varied. Now I know myself well enough, please forgive me if I’ve already said this on this podcast, but I will say, I just am not into dragons, politics, or when people pay money out of a pouch.
John: Great.
Pamela: That’s it. I know it. It doesn’t matter. You can put other things in that pouch, jewels maybe or secret but not farthings.
John: Nimona had dragons and pouches for sure.
Pamela: I turned it down the first time it came around. 100% I was like, “It checks every box I don’t like.” Then they came around again and they were like, “The thing is you don’t have to come all the way out to Connecticut anymore because of Zoom. What if we come to you?” They were like, “They’re punk rock dragons. I don’t think we have to have any pouches.” I was like, “Okay, let’s try it.”
John: All right. My list for that, it’s not a thing I would often say in meetings, but I would definitely tell my reps is like, “ No gnomes, elves, dwarves or Christmas.” I just like no. People will still come to me with Christmas but it’s like, “No, I don’t care about Christmas as a concept.” Even there was a good documentary that was about Christmas trees in New York and the whole business of Christmas trees in New York City. It’s is actually fascinating but it’s also, “No, it’s Christmas. No, it’s just bah humbug.” I just don’t want to do those.
Pamela: Really does help them immediately go, “Oh, we’re going to put down a number of these things.” It may make them say, “What is it that you like?” I think with me in particular, they’re not always assuming what it is that I like because they’re– Now that you have produced credits, they’re like, “Oh.” There have been times when I’m like, “Do you think I’m a cartoon person? Is that what you’re doing?” They’re like, “Yes. Sorry, I don’t know why I’m doing that.” People have a way of learning about animation that is limiting.
You’re always having to show your other sides and the dynamics of you. Often, I’ll tell you what, we end up talking about roller derby.
We end up trying about what I do when I’m not writing and your hobbies, your family, whatever it is. In those generals, I’m always talking to this person until we find that thing that lights them up. Then I know we got it. Sometimes he’s like, “I collect trains.” I was like, “Tell me more.” Then, you watch them become the person they want to be in front of you because they’re talking about their passion.
John: Absolutely. You may not give a rat’s ass about trains but the fact that it is interesting to them, there’s going to be something there that’s fascinating. There’s something that’s driving them about that.
Pamela: They have stories because of that. That’s when you see the storyteller come to life.
John: Again, I’m forgetting exactly where I learned this but Rod Stewart apparently is a big model train builder and collector. I appreciate Rod Stewart so much more now just recognizing that he has an obsession, a hobby that has nothing to do with music or songwriting. That’s fun. That’s nice. Let’s talk about part of the general meeting is talking about what you’re working on right now, which could be a delicate subject because it could be in flux. It could be like, there’s a director on, director’s not on, there could be an NDA. How do you best do that? I think sometimes in animation where we’re under NDAs a little bit more than we are in live action but talk to us about that.
Pamela: For a while I would be like, I’m working on things I can’t tell you about for years and that would be enough. It depends on the room. Sometimes you can realize you’re at a Disney meeting or you can be like, “We’re all in the family here. I’m working on Moana.” If you’re in a position where you can’t really– Let’s say right now I’m working on Emily the Strange for Warner Bros Animation with Bad Robot. That’s all I can say about it.
John: It was announced in the trades. You’re safe there.
Pamela: I’m safe there. I’m talking about who I’m working with and I focus on the great things about it because we have hard days, and I try not to launch right into like where it hurts and just talk about where it’s working and what’s great and what we’re still excited about. Because really the NDA is often so that you don’t like talk about stuff that they wouldn’t want in a press release and you know that in your heart. There’s things that are set up that aren’t quite happening yet. I have a spec that went out this week. Here’s something, you guys. I’ve never sold a spec before, ever.
John: I’ve sold exactly one. It was Go. That was the only spec I’ve ever sold.
Pamela: Good for you. That’s amazing. Tell me what it’s like. I’m excited but I don’t know what’s going to happen and maybe nothing will happen. I have a little piece of news this week that I have a spec that’s going out, which if I were in a general, they’d be like, “Can you tell me about it? Can I get it? Can I get it on that list? Can I read it?” That’s the mystery. You can use an NDA to your benefit of a mystery. You’re working. I’ve got a project at FX. I’ve got something going on at Disney TV Animation or whatever. These things take forever and they all have their own timeline, you bounce around to being– I genuinely like to balance a bunch of projects at once.
I try to talk about the one that either is the closest to next that anybody could see but you also know that a lot of stuff you work on maybe no one will ever see. You try to talk within what is the you of it, not the all of it. I’m working on this project. It’s really fun. We’re putting some stuff together. You can sometimes say where you’re at in it but I just try not to get into what’s not my business.
John: If I can bring it back to my process, that’s also a useful thing too. I can say I’m writing this movie right now for this company and it’s under NDA but I can say– It was one of the rare cases where I needed to write the outline first and it’s just actually such a luxury to have a really big fat outline because as I go to my daily work on doing the scene, it’s like, “Oh, what happens in this? Oh, exactly. This is what happens.” It’s like so many of the fundamental questions have actually been tackled in the outline form. It gives me a chance to talk about myself as a writer, which is nice.
Pamela: Oh yes.
John: Another point of commonality I’m thinking is business affairs. We say like, “Oh, there’s this thing.” Business affairs is so slow. I don’t know when it’s going to happen. It’s like everyone will just nod because business affairs is crazy and it just takes forever to get contracts done. Something will be sold at a place and eight months later, you’re allowed to start writing because the contracts are finally done.
Pamela: Sometimes you are like that. The deals are taken. There’s a lot of heavy hitters in here. We’re waiting on some stuff. You can also say lawyers. These things take time but your excitement stays the same. You really get to talk about how you got– Even talking about how you got that job or how you met everybody, how you ended up with it. That’s a good one.
John: If you can sell the enthusiasm that you– If you’re excited to write this thing for them and they want to see writers who are excited to engage. I can imagine like Charlie Kaufman is a great writer, but I don’t imagine he’s great in a room in terms of being really enthusiastic about this thing he’s doing. It’s like, if you come in as a curmudgeon, maybe that’s true to your authentic personality but it’s not going to be like, “Oh my God, I can’t wait to work with him.”
Pamela: That being said, you do not have to fake, like some of us like going outside and meeting other people. Some of us do not. I think sometimes the pressure is on of do I have to be someone else in this general? Do I have to lie and be a fundamentally different person? Sometimes you have to fake a little bit the confidence to be yourself. Then, that’ll get easier. The more that you’re like, “Oh, I was myself and nothing bad happened.” You just do that again and do that again and get used too. Sometimes it takes them a minute to get used to me. Even as the extrovert that I am, I can tell that I’m like, “Hey, I’m very excited.”
I can say like a little bit too much coffee, a little bit haven’t been outside in a while. Give me a second to settle. I’m not so much nervous as I am jittery. I think all of those things of, “I am shy. I’m really happy to be here but you should know that I haven’t had that many generals. I’m a little shy.” Just be a person. Be a person and that makes everything easier on both sides.
John: 100%. I was on a pitch this week and usually there is the ramp, the warmup, getting into things. Everyone logs in and they’re like, “Great. Let’s go.” It’s like, “Sure.” I’m there and I’m pitching away. It went fine. It went great. You also have to be prepared. Sometimes there’s just not that on [unintelligible 00:20:22] and you’re just like, “Go. Okay. Great, I’m doing it.” Be ready for it. That’s why I think if you are actually pitching a project, really rehearsing that first minute or two, just so you feel really comfortable with how you get into it is going to be a huge help because it could just suddenly happen.
Pamela: I don’t record myself and watch it again but I do record myself sometimes for the pitch so that I don’t have to do that part.
John: You’ve talked about this on the show, I think, before, where you actually will send them a link to a pre-recorded pitch.
Pamela: People now are more able to be in the Zooms or you might be pitching knowing it’s being recorded for someone else who’s not in the Zooms, so you do have to be your game face on. If they do say go, like you just did, you’re like, “Oh yes, this is happening?” It’s totally fine to do that and be like, “Here we go, hold on. I’m going to pull up my draft and I’m ready.” I’ll do disclaimers at the top of you can totally stop me for questions. I hate pitching to mute buttons so whatever you want to do, we’re all people here and I’ll just get through this pitch together.
I find that they, in the Zoom room, when you’re pitching, they do sit back like here’s a little TV show. In a pitch where you’re with people, they are probably more likely to go, “Oh wait, did you or that’s funny.” Because you’re people.
John: You’re people rather than being little boxes with faces in them. Post-pandemic, how many pitches have you done in person, where you’ve gone in? How many general meetings have you been in, like a cross run person and then pitches in person?
Pamela: One?
John: One or two for me. This one studio has wanted me to come in in person twice. I’m looking at Drew to see if he can remember other times, but two or three times. Basically everything has been a Zoom since the pandemic. I’ve talked to some friends who was like, “I don’t know that I could pitch in person anymore because I’m so used to having my slideshow deck. I share a screen and I go through my slides and to do that in person, I wouldn’t know what to do.”
Pamela: One of my friends said, “This is terrible because I’ve learned a key component of liking me is the third dimension.” All credit to Don Todd. That one that I did in person, it was really early pandemic. It was literally the first time I had gone into a room with someone. I said to her when I sat down, she was a big, important person. I sat down, I was like, I can’t believe that we’re taking masks off. I’m like, “What is happening? Look what I’ll do for my career.” That’s still it. I’ve had a room where we all got together for a kickoff. I’ve done some of those kickoff in the room but not this type thing that we’re talking about. They’re all–
John: The kickoff stuff, I was in a room and meeting everybody in person but the initial things have basically all been Zoomy situations. This one that I did this week, I didn’t have a deck. There was no images. I just talked for 15 minutes and described it and it went great. I’m so used to having the fallback of like, “Here’s the next image, here’s the next image and [unintelligible 00:23:31] to not have that.” I’m sure we’ve said this on the podcast before but if you do have notes and you’re doing it on a Zoom, move your notes to the very top of the screen up by your camera so you’re not looking down, you’re looking closer to the lens. Just so you’re making more eye contact.
Pamela: I actually, I put the Zoom in the tiny little bar with the people I want to be pitching to under the green light. Then, my pitch notes are right below that. I have no choice to be looking into that little corner and I can read how they’re doing if they’re listening.
John: It’s good. Another hint is if you have somebody in a second for somebody who’s on your side, they can talk without the facts. You can see how are people actually responding? Because people’s faces are small, it’s a little harder to read the sense of the room afterwards.
Pamela: They can also do the flipping for you if you want so that you are only doing your talking part.
John: All good choices. All right. This is helpful. Any last wrap up on introducing yourself, how to talk about yourself, how to not to be a jerk?
Pamela: We have on here, how to not be a jerk but we have what is too personal and how do you feel confident about your work that you don’t sound apologetic for being in the room. I just want to say that my first general happened the day after my father passed away. I was like, “I’m not canceling this general. I’ve never had one before. I’m not going anywhere today.” My dad had entered hospice. He was like, “I’m going to go outside and I’m going to go do this career thing.” It was the very beginning of all of this. Trauma and time have made me not remember everything but I remember it was the Disney old animation building.
I sat down and she liked the script, which is about my different family members, but about generational trauma and such in a comedy. I don’t know. We just at some point started talking about families and I told her what had happened last night. She ended up talking about her dad. I do remember that we both at some point were just crying a little bit sharing stories with each other. Then that was it. I think that was a really good general. Even though that’s not– Most people are like, “No Pam, you take the day off. What is wrong with you?” I know that but I also know that’s what I wanted to do. That’s what he would have probably suggested I do, just go out there and talk.
Sometimes you bring the day in with you and that general is what I was trying to say about what’s too personal and what’s not. If there’s no getting around it, that your day is with you end up having some pretty profound general sometimes because you’re not doing this checklist of things and you’re just some people talking to each other. If they didn’t get around to the thing they wanted to talk to you about, they’ll call you again. You’ll have a follow-up or it becomes the beginning of something. The too personal, I think the line is you don’t owe anybody your story.
You don’t owe anybody the worst things that have ever happened to you in order to validate being able to talk about whatever you want to talk about. I think sometimes we get worried that we have to spread our hearts open and then give everything on that first try. You’re learning what they deserve to.
John: For sure. All right. Let’s move on to our second topic here. This comes from Ryan Knighton, who is a guest who’s been on the show several times. He’s a writer who lives in Canada who comes down to the US to write sometimes. He sent in this voicemail.
Ryan Knighton: In answer to your question, what would be advice I would give about being unemployed as a writer. I was thinking about it. One of the things that I’ve experienced at least is that unemployment can make you incurious as a writer. The anxiety of the unemployment can pull you towards the middle of things, towards the safe and what you might think is predictable way of doing your work or the subject matters you take or the approach you take. That’s on my experience is that I start to chase what I think people might want instead of following an investment in my own curiosity and hoping that it will connect somewhere in the road in some form.
I battle against the pull to the middle, to the pull to the safe and work I don’t think I would enjoy but I would enjoy if I took a risk, not riskier, that’s not the word. I think you get what I mean.
John: I do get what he means.
Pamela: I’ll never sound as beautiful or wise as Ryan.
John: He’s got a great voice.
Pamela: Oh man, yes.
John: You and I both know a lot of writer friends who are not working as much as they should be working and that’s always the case, but it feels increasingly so now just with the other fewer shows, staffing fewer writers and there’s a lot more scrambling. In that scrambling, it resonates what Ryan’s saying in terms of this pull towards safety, not taking risks. When you stop to think about it, the better instinct should be to take some risks now because it’s a chance to grow and do things that are breaking out of the box.
Pamela: It’s some form of a pandemic again right now with that kind of stuff. A lot of us during the pandemic became pioneers again and baked bread and learned the piano. I’ve taken up embroidery and all of those things that are important to keep your mind moving, learning a new language or whatever. We all have this confident delusion, hopefully that we will work again, this is temporary. If you’re not deciding am I retired or not? You’re waiting for that next opportunity then it has to feel like a hiatus. When you’re working in television, you have hiatus so it’s like–
Or you’re between gigs and you’re pretty sure you’re going to have another one but you don’t know when. Do everything that you’re going to miss when you’re busy, pack in family time or alone time or a stack of books or whatever. I know that doesn’t feel like you have that luxury when you’re feeling like I’m unemployed. That’s different that you’re running for safety. I understand that’s like taking care of your own and your future but your brain, I think that where Ryan’s worried, like am I ruining my risk-taking brain? Then there’s these other things that you can do. I’m making a documentary that’s crazy. I was like, this is some downtime. If I don’t fill it, I don’t know what I’m going to do with myself. I don’t know that I would have thought of it the way that Ryan’s describing of moving toward some– It’s almost like he’s saying I don’t want to be basic or something. He’s like, “Am I going to be less awesome the more this goes? Am I going to lose the me-ness of me?” Am I getting that right of what he means?
John: I absolutely do. I think you’re getting it right. That question of should I change my shape in order to fit this world, to make it easier to get through these doors and the limited number of jobs that are available to make myself more appealing to that? Should I write the thing that is more conventionally commercial? That is simpler to see like,” Oh, I get what this is.” I’ve gone through that at times in my career too. I remember just being frustrated that other movies were getting made that weren’t my movies. Maybe I can write that kind of movie too. Just like, I’ll write that movie. It was a waste of my time because it wasn’t the best thing for me to have been doing.
Pamela: I would imagine that no matter what you were doing, you were still making your version of that kind of a movie.
John: I was. Listen as you know every script you write is months of your time that you could have been doing something that is just truer to your own experience. When Ryan uses the verb chase, that is a thing you see yourself doing sometimes. You’re chasing a project and wait, is that a thing you’d actually even really want to write. Maybe not, but it’s something that’s out there. It’s a thing you could do so therefore you feel like you should do it. If you were to see that somebody else in the trades got this thing, it would be frustrating to you.
Pamela: I see that. That sometimes you only know that when you go a little on that journey. Then there’s just a moment where they want you to do another round of notes or another meeting where you’re like, “Oh, I don’t want to. This won’t feel good anymore. If I take that meeting, I hate myself.”
John: I try to pass quickly on a thing where it’s like, “No, that’s just not for me.” On the Christmas tree thing I was like, “No, that’s not for me.” There’s been other things which I feel over the years have engaged on more than I really should have because it’s a thing I could do but it’s a question, is it the thing I should do? I try to get back to the algorithm of just heck yes or no. Either absolutely 100% I’m going to do this or I shouldn’t do it. I think like, “Am I the person who should be writing this movie or is there five other people who are clearly better suited to be doing this movie?”
Pamela: You learned all that going through flirting. You learned all that the hard way, I’m guessing.
John: Yes.
Pamela: There’s a little bit of that here but I also think, in the little for me, little for them of how to do stuff, sometimes you’re like, “Man, I think I can get that one. I think I can get it quickly. I think I can do it quickly.” Then, that’s going to make me feel better about the rest of the year and next year and then I can go back to the thing I want. If you’re feeling that unsure about stuff and you can grab a fish maybe. You just know this is for this reason.
John: Being honest with yourself about that I think is important. You don’t have to be honest in the general meeting and say like, “I would do this for the money.”
Pamela: Can you imagine? It’s in the general feeling. You guys need anything back there. I’ve got like two weeks for you.
John: I used to do a lot more weekly rewrites. In that process it was just fully mercenary. I see what the problems are, I’ll becoming in and solve these problems. I’m going to deal with these difficult personalities and get through this thing. This is not my movie. It’s not my dream. It’s not my goal. I’m here to help out to maintain some relationships, but mostly you’re paying me cash. That’s fantastic.
Pamela: Maybe you think of it as money. It’s in the list but you still have to go to that job. You have to think like, “I can be helpful here. What can I do?”
John: Sometimes it’s really nice just to be able to use your craft to be able to do a thing and to just to recognize a problem, and solve a problem feels great because so much of what we’re doing as writers is so amorphous. I’m like, “Did that actually make it better? Is that even going to be a thing?” It’s also nice to write on something that actually gets made because so often the things we do just disappear. I’ve done so much work to contribute to a thing and then it just never happens.
Pamela: You should remind me what I do. I start mentoring. I volunteer for things. I try to mentor. Because when you’re talking to the people who are spending their whole day trying to figure out how to be where you’re sitting, it does remind you of where you’re at and how far you’ve gone and what you want next. It helps with goals and dreams and it helps reposition yourself into thinking like, “Oh, it’s not over.” I’ve been here before in some version. It just feels different now because I have a hundred more responsibilities or whatever your reasons are.
John: I was talking with Drew this week about– There’s a situation I’m finding myself approaching and I’m reminding myself that this always happens and it always feels this way and it’s going into it. I’m going to feel this way and we’ll get through it and it’ll be fine. There was this anxiety approaching. It’s like, “Oh yes, but I know what this is. It’s nothing new.” To get back to Ryan’s question here is that the anxiety that you feel when you’re unemployed is that, will I ever work again? That’s the thing that is so frustrating, which makes it so different than a writer on hiatus between two seasons of shows. Do all the things because you know you have a job to go back to.
Pamela: Usually. Sometimes.
John: Sometimes you don’t. Is there any advice we should give to writer listeners who are hearing this and thinking about so what should I write? Should I write this commercial thing that my manager wants me to do? Should I write this thing that has been a passion project that I’ve never allowed myself to do because I’ve always been busy writing stuff for other people? What guidance can we give to our writer listeners?
Pamela: I’m the kind of person who might try both at the same time and see which one is winning because maybe they’re right. Maybe you can crack some code and because you’re you and you’re thinking differently. I know when I’m on these pitches, the first thing I usually say is, “This is not going to be what you’re expecting but you called me so here we go.” In the end, they’re like, “You’ve given us something to think about.” It’s something I hear a lot. I also know that that’s just what is going to happen and if I wanted to be more of a sure shot, I would really be having to use different muscles of how I break things.
You can try that but probably what it’ll do is lead you back to the thing you were like, is this worth my time? I want to write this thing that’s in my head and feels more me.
John: Always a great time to remind people that as a writer, you have this amazing power that you can just go off and write. No one has to hire you to do anything. Unlike an actor or a director who has to be put onto a project, you can just do whatever you want to do at any moment. I think the worst thing for you to do during a period of unemployment is nothing. You’ve got to find something to write, whether it’s commercial, whether it’s something for yourself to keep those muscles going.
Pamela: It also doesn’t necessarily have to be a screenplay because you might find a play in you or a song or a book, all of a sudden you’re like, “Oh, I’m writing a novel that I will eventually adapt into a screenplay with success.” Not deciding, unless you’re like this is the break I need to get back to my painting, the clay, the garden, the something. Just something that allows your brain to keep processing all these thoughts instead of thinking, this is useless, I’m useless, I’m nothing, I’m yesterday because that’s just not true.
John: All right. Let’s get to some listener questions.
Drew: We’ll start with Marie in Brussels. I’m telling the story of a couple. My main narrative point of view is that of a man and we begin with him, finish with him, and above all the main question addressed by the film is driven by him but at many moments throughout, I write from the point of view of the woman. The story’s about motivations and I would like to fully understand her. I listened very carefully to your episode about point of view, episode 358, but could you explore in more depth how to alternate point of view? What do we need to pay attention to and how can you make the alternation fluid?
John: Great. Marie thinks she’s writing a single point of view story and it feels like it might be more of a two-hander. I think she’s asking the right questions. I’m excited to just see where she’s going with it. I’m not nervous on her behalf, but I understand her question because she wants to make sure that it really does feel like the movie is centered around this man even if he’s not in every scene.
Pamela: I have a script like this but I want to say it’s unproduced. Maybe part of it is the problem. I’m doing it because one is a realist and one isn’t, and so I also want the audience to be a little unsure. I want them to believe in both of them actually. That both of them have a valid point in their way through the world and they both could be true. I want to understand her without making guesses. I use his point of view to ground us. If it’s mostly about this man and she’s not the B story, when you move into her point of view, it has a different feel. My writing has a different feel a little when we are in her point of view. It allows for the magical realism of her life.
When we’re in his point of view, the things that he’s doing, the world that he’s in, the way that it’s written is more clipped. It’s his practical point of view. Your script can feel like your characters and maybe that helps with that fluidity you’re looking for.
John: The movie’s about Edward Bloom but the Will character, the son, does have a lot of storytelling power. He drives scenes by himself but it’s in an effort to understand his father better. It makes sense that you’re switching POVs between those two things. This also made me think about The Brutalist, which is all about Adrian Brody’s character, yet sometimes you’re switching to the wife’s point of view or other characters’ point of view. about the scenarios that’s happening here. There’s scenes that he’s not driving. It’s absolutely doable. I think just be mindful of when you’re shifting to a different character’s point of view and make it count. Make sure that the scenes where you’re shifting point of view there really is a good reason why you’re doing it.
Pamela: That it’s very clear from the beginning we’ve changed point of view. That we’re not just waiting for him to enter and be the scene.
John: Such a great point. As an audience, we don’t know what’s going to happen in a scene and so if we’re just standing around waiting for him to show up, we’re probably not paying attention to what you’re trying to get us to see in the scene. Our next question comes from Brandon.
Drew: I recently wrote a script that used the word sinister three times. Is that too many? Would you feel comfortable using the same adjective three times in a script?
Pamela: Is it a five minute piece?
John: I would throw the script across the room if I saw it. On the third time I saw it, sinister didn’t have it.
Pamela: Wait, is it called sinister? Is one of the characters named sinister? I guess why? If there’s a reason, if it’s like Act one, Act two, Act three and sinister means something different, is it thematic? Why? You already have flagged it. Is it too many depending on what you’re trying to do?
John: Brandon, if it feels weird to you, then you’re using too many. If you’re noticing it, then sinister is just not a was or a house or a common, it’s a rare enough word that for it to show up too often, it’s worth addressing and finding a good synonym there to avoid it.
Pamela: For me, it would need to be– I’m going to notice it too and so you want me to notice it. Every time it’s something different is happening here. That’s why we’re using the word sinister.
John: Agreed. English has so many words. It’s so many words. You have your choice. If you’re writing in Esperanto, I could see the problem here. It’s a much smaller vocabulary set but you got so many, tons. Let’s do one more here from Ryan.
Drew: Ryan writes, I’m currently outlining a period biopic feature with no shortage of fun and memorable scenes. The anecdotes play well in a room whenever I tell them aloud but in a film form, I’m finding the whole and then of it all is working to the detriment of my story. It doesn’t add up to something substantial like I’m hoping for. Any advice on how to confront this linear stringing out of events and bend them into a more consequential series of scenes and sequences?
John: We’re nodding here. Just to make sure everyone is hearing what he’s asking in this question is, there’s a moment, there’s a scene, and then there’s a moment, there’s a scene, and then it doesn’t feel like there’s a causality between things. It’s just a bunch of stuff happens without feeling like there is a purpose, a drive, a natural flow of cause and effect between them. That’s where I think, Ryan, you need to step back and think about– There’s the real version of stuff and then there’s the movie and you got to write the movie and the movie is going to have causality. Our main character has to be causing these things to happen in a pursuit of some goal of theirs.
Pamela: Just change and then to because and see what happens. At this point, you want to track the emotional journey of your story. All these cool moments that happen in real life not only because of this happened, because of this she went this way and because of this he got married. How do you want the whole thing to feel? You also don’t necessarily have to tell it in the order of the way you’ve been pitching these fun scenes. The one that gets everybody hooked that might be somehow even first and you end up doing a Stewart special. Whatever it is that you’re tracking, how’s the movie going to make you feel from the beginning to the end? Then, you know and it’s because I felt this, that I was able to feel this and then this happened and because that happened, this very terrible thing happened and then you have the flow of your movie.
John: You’re starting with an advantage because you have these moments to do play well in a room, and so you know that there’s something to those moments. It’s making sure those moments really feel earned in your story and that we’re getting into and out of those things in the right way. It’s why setups for jokes are so important. It’s making sure that it really feels like you’ve led us to this place where we get to have this experience and then we can use that energy to get to us to the next place. It’s the right stuff. I would say stop writing scenes for a moment and really look at an outline and really look at what the overall shape of this is best served us.
Pamela: Motivations. Now, where are they trying? How come these scenes feel like achievements? These moments that you can pitch, like what did they try to do that got here? Because they got here, they had to go try something else or had a setback or whatever.
John: Be careful of things that happen to your character rather than because of your character. All right. It’s time for our one cool things. My one cool thing is something that has actually been around for a long time but I just found out about it this week. Pam, you grew up in Texas. You are used to thunderstorms, I’m assuming. I grew up in Colorado. We had some thunderstorms. In California, we just never get them. If I did get thunderstorms here in Los Angeles, I would use the Real Time Lightning Map. This thing is really cool. On this website you see, basically all the lightning strikes happening in the world, especially in North America because of these sensors they have places.
What’s cool about it is, if you are someplace in the middle of a lightning storm, you can look and see where lightning strike was. It’s timed in a way that you’ll see the radius expand. You’ll hear the thunder at the same time that the radius expands to wherever you are. The timing is built that way. We live in an age of wonders.
Pamela: I’m afraid of lightning, so I don’t like this map. I used to just tell people, “Do you know lightning strikes the earth 100 times a second?” Now I can see it.
John: Now you can see this.
Pamela: It’s terrifying.
John: There’s some lake in South America that has a thunderstorm every night. Literally every night. Don’t go there. It’s my recommendation to you. Pam, no.
Pamela: Spent a lot of time in the deep South, there’s a lot of lightning.
John: Pam, what’s your recommendation? What’s your one cool thing?
Pamela: I started with what turned out to be a rerun. I’m glad I got to find the second one cool thing. You mentioned Texas, so this is a nice segue. Segue man to studentsengaged.org, SEAT it is. Man, it’s amazing. It’s one of those things where you’re like, “Why didn’t we do this?” Gen X thinks they’re so awesome but this current generation that is like, “We want a seat at the table.” This is a group of young people throughout Texas who are trying to have any school board has a student representative on board. They go to the Capitol and they introduce bills. They speak on legislation.
They stand up for their rights, and they also have a bill of rights to help other young people know when their rights are being violated. How to get involved at the Capitol building and how to get your community involved, how to make politics personal and get them empowered. I’m just so proud of these people. I hope this is everybody’s future because as we’re all learning, the entire country is Texas now but they are teaching each other how to be leaders not later, how to be leaders now, and how to bring people along.
Just the basic decency of tampons being free and available in every bathroom in school because you shouldn’t have to go to the nurse and you shouldn’t have to miss class and nobody should be embarrassed about basic private body functions. Why didn’t we think of this? We thought we were so cool. The Breakfast Club should have said, “I would like a seat at the table, please, to make my own rules about detention.” Anyway, studentsengage.org, you can get involved, you can donate to their work, you can just go see what they’re up to and what they’re doing. I hope it inspires a young person or you in your own life.
John: I want to celebrate what they’re doing and give us and Generation X a little grace because we were doing this at a time before internet, at least early internet, so it was hard to mobilize people. You had the people right around you, so within a high school you might be able to affect some changes. I remember I was a student leader so of course I was doing some things inside of my high school, but it was tough to mobilize and see the bigger picture around you. You couldn’t find all the other teens.
Pamela: Did you think that you could go to a school board meeting?
John: I went to school board meetings.
Pamela: You went to city council and talked to the big room?
John: I was in Boy Scouts so I had to for a merit badge.
Pamela: Oh. We just had student walkouts that would give you maybe detention.
John: We are in an age of horrors but it’s also nice to see that there’s some bright spots there and people who are pushing back against the horrors. It’s nice to see. That is our show for this week. Scriptnotes is produced by Drew Marquardt and edited by Matthew Chilelli. Our outro this week is by Nick Moore. If you have an outro, you can send us a link to ask@johnaugust.com. We love our outros and our larder of outros is getting a little bit lean and so we would love some more outros from our listeners. Ask@tjohnaugust.com is also the place where you can send questions like the ones we answered today.
You’ll find transcripts at johnaugust.com, along with a sign up for our weekly newsletter called Interesting, which has lots of links to things about writing and pre-orders on the Scriptnotes book. The book comes out December 2nd. If you pre-order your book, thank you, and you just send that receipt to ask@johnaugust.com. Drew is collecting all those, and we’re finding a very fun thing to send you via email before the book comes out. You’ll find clips and other helpful video on our YouTube. Just search for Scriptnotes. We have t-shirts and hoodies and drinkware. You’ll find those at Cotton Bureau.
You’ll find the show notes with links to all the things we talked about today in the email you get each week as a premium subscriber. Your premium subscribers are the absolute best. You are going to be getting an email about our live show we’re recording tomorrow, the day after this comes out, the episode 700 live show, but everyone is welcome to join us on YouTube. That’ll be next week. You can sign up to become a premium member at scriptnotes.net. We get all those back episodes and bonus segments like the one we’re about to record on the present and future of podcasts. Man, this was a very good present podcast. Pamela Ribon, thank you so much for joining us here today.
Pamela: Thanks, anytime.
[Bonus Segment]
John: All right. Pamela Ribon, you have been in various kinds of media, online media. You were early on the recapping world. You were early in podcasting too. How long have you done podcasts?
Pamela: I loved being a professional guest. It took a long time before I had my own podcast. Legally, we all have to have one.
John: We’re required now.
Pamela: We’ve been doing Listen to Sassy. I don’t know. We don’t really count it like that. Are we in our fourth year? Maybe. Yes, it doesn’t feel that long. Before that, I would just guest anywhere.
John: You’d guest anywhere. You’ve followed podcasts but talk to me about what you perceive as being a podcast because if there’s two people talking on YouTube, is it a podcast?
Pamela: Now it is, I guess because people want to watch their podcasts. I asked Tara and Dave, I was like, “Are we not ever going to do one of these even as a bonus for our subscribers?” They were like, “Never. I don’t want anyone to see me doing this.” We would do watch parties where we’d put a movie on and then we all chatted while it was on. We said hello before and after. My friends, they don’t want to be public facing.
John: I hear that. We’ll put a link in the show notes to two articles, one from The Wrap and one from The New York Times, talking about how so much of the podcast market has moved on to YouTube. 30% of podcast listeners play the video in the background or minimize rather than just the audios. It’s like people are listening, watching podcasts on YouTube. Just my daughter who’s 20, she will say like, “Oh yes, I watched that podcast.” I’m like, “Wait, that’s the wrong verb. You’re listening to podcasts.”
Pamela: I think when the comedians all got involved– It’s just a stage. First we were like, however I get in your ears, I’ll put it in a podcast. Me and my buddies talking about being funny. Then you’re like, “This is the show of it all.” Let them see us. That’s now I have my own show. I get that. My kid also would prefer just watching YouTube to listening to things. We just like looking at people doing things. We like looking at windows where things are happening, like the zoo. Oh, the Panda Cam. It’s the original podcast.
John: The New York Times article interviews some people about it. They’re saying they want to be able to look at the screen, even if they’re not mostly looking at the screen. Just like us Gen X’s, sometimes they’ll start a podcast and they’ll do their dishes. They’ll do other stuff while the podcast is playing, but they’re not necessarily looking at it. Which raises the question of should Scriptnotes be recording video for our podcast? We’re on Zoom right now so we could use this video. I went on Mike Birbiglia’s podcast. For that, they do shoot three cameras of video for the whole thing. They edit that and they put that up on YouTube.
It seems like a lot of work for us to honestly be doing. Matthew’s busy enough cutting the audio and making it sound good. To have to think about the video too is an extra factor.
Pamela: Is his show like on Wondery or something? I always assume that’s what happens when you’re getting paid to do your podcast. They need to put it on TikTok and all these little clips that get people driving to more clicks. You have to be like, “I guess I’ll wear my good shirt.” Other than that–
John: Mike’s podcast does have ads but the YouTube version of it does not have ads. I guess they’re getting some monetization off of YouTube in general. I don’t believe he’s part of a bigger network behind it.
Pamela: He’s a comedian. I just think that’s it.
John: It’s driving people to come see his stand up. It’s probably part of it.
Pamela: Part of him is his physicality. You’re only getting some of it if you can hear him. Why not?
John: You got to go get a hold of Mike Birbiglia a package.
Pamela: There’s a reason that I’m asking Tara and Dave, can we turn the cameras on? I want to.
John: Absolutely.
Pamela: The third dimension. That’s how he’s used to communicating with his audience. I get that.
John: I think what we’ve been talking about is when it gets closer to award season, that’s when we start to have filmmakers and directors and writers coming on the show. We have to deal with publicists to get stuff going. We’ve had Christopher Nolan on. We’ve had Greta Gerwig. It’s lovely to have them there. I think we do a great job on the audio of those things. It would make sense honestly to record video for those situations. To record video in our setup, it’s a really tiny little space and pulling out the cameras to do all that stuff feels like a lot.
We’re considering for the episodes where we do go video, we’ll just rent an existing studio to do a situation. We’ll go to a place that just records podcasts and just rent it by the hour or whatever to do that. We have video for just those ones where we decide to do it.
Pamela: The events. That’s fancy because you could just record the Zoom.
John: We could just record the Zoom for the ones that are on Zoom. We actually have those people in person. Christopher Nolan actually showed up here.
Pamela: Oh, that was fancy.
John: That was fancy. We have like Julia Louis-Dreyfus came to our office and she’s sitting at this shitty little table and it would make more sense, I think, to do it in a professional place.
Pamela: It depends on however you get the actual vibe of your show. If moving to that studio makes you guys more formal and weird and it’s actually funny to watch you guys just be at a table with Julie. I want to see you with them, particularly when we find out, “Oh, you guys are friends.” We’re going to see that better in a less formal situation.
John: That’s true. Basically we need to create an artificial space that’s well lit that seems like it’s just hanging out at our place. That’s what we’ll do.
Pamela: That’s what the garage is for.
John: That’s what the garage is for. We have to have the lawnmower hanging there on the wall. It all feels fun and random.
Pamela: Honestly, it’s just getting to watch you interact. I don’t know that you need to worry about if the quality of the sound is good and we can see all three of you. If all three of you were in the same room with three different Zooms, it’s still going to get that feeling of you’re looking at each other and talking to each other like a general. I don’t know. You throw some money in and it gets fancy. Now you’re going viral on TikTok.
John: Absolutely.
Pamela: Here you go.
John: We’ll see what ends up happening. It’s weird to be 13 years into a podcast and seeing-
Pamela: The growth.
John: -the medium itself evolve and figure out like, “Oh, are we going to still be doing the same stuff we’ve been doing? Is the official version of an episode the audio?” To me, it always will be. The video may just be a little fun bonus.
Pamela: You’re evolving your podcast into the next version of it. A lot of times it’s just people looking like this sitting at their desks. It looks like when behind the scenes of a radio station. It looks like Frasier.
John: You in particular, you’re sad because of the louvered blinds behind you there. It feels like, “Oh yes, she’s at a radio station.” Some drive time traffic there.
Pamela: I’ve got all kinds of sound effects over here. I’m ready to hit. It’s just a peek at your humanness. I don’t know that you should worry about it looking like a big production because it’s just a hang. It’s a good hang.
John: It’s a good hang. We’re going to hang. You are a fantastic hang. Pam, thank you so much for bringing a great topic at just the right moment. Craig couldn’t be here today, but it’s so nice to see you and so cool to hang out with you.
Pamela: A lot of fun. Thank you so much.
John: Awesome. Thanks.
Links:
- Scriptnotes Episode 700 – LIVE
- Pamela Ribon
- My Year of Dicks
- Rental Family trailer
- Japan’s Rent-A-Family Industry by Elif Batuman for The New Yorker
- 37 Seconds
- Good conversations have lots of doorknobs by Adam Mastroianni
- Real Time Lightning Map
- Students Engaged in Advancing Texas (SEAT)
- Who Is Watching All These Podcasts? by Joseph Bernstein for NYT
- Get a Scriptnotes T-shirt!
- Check out the Inneresting Newsletter
- Become a Scriptnotes Premium member, or gift a subscription
- Subscribe to Scriptnotes on YouTube
- Craig Mazin on Instagram
- John August on Bluesky and Instagram
- Outro by Nick Moore (send us yours!)
- Scriptnotes is produced by Drew Marquardt and edited by Matthew Chilelli.
Email us at ask@johnaugust.com
You can download the episode here.