Search Results for: youtube

The original post for this episode can be found [here](https://johnaugust.com/2024/lawyer-scenes).

**John August:** Hello and welcome. My name is John August.

**Craig Mazin:** Oh. Oh. My name is Craig Mazin.

**John:** And you’re listening to Episode 638 of Scriptnotes, a podcast about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters. Today on the show, you can’t handle the truth.

**Craig:** You can’t handle the truth!

**John:** We’ll be talking about lawyer scenes in movies and television with an actual criminal defense attorney, to separate the tropes from the truth. And in our Bonus Segment for Premium Members, Craig, beach vacations. Is there anything better or anything worse?

**Craig:** Everything is better. Literally everything.

**John:** I’m with you there. We’re going to have to find some other third party to argue for beach vacations.

**Craig:** I don’t know if we have the right guy for that, be honest with you.

**John:** We’ll see. First, Craig, we have some important follow-up here about a mistake that you made. The great Julia Turner herself wrote in to say:

**Drew Marquardt:** “As your self-appointed chief journalist correspondent, I am obligated to write in to tell you that Stephen Glass published his fabulism in The New Republic, not The New Yorker. That is how his articles made it through The New Yorker’s vaunted fact-checking process, which in fact, they didn’t.”

**Craig:** God, I feel terrible. Confession time. My entire life, I panic whenever I have to reference The New Republic, The New Yorker, or New York Magazine.

**John:** 100 percent.

**Craig:** New Yorker is special. New Republic is also quite special. New York Magazine is not that special. But I panic every time. And I blew it here. And I blew it in the dumbest way, because I made a mistake, a fact-checking mistake about a fact-checking story where a guy was making stuff up. So thank you, Julia, for correcting me. And my deepest apologies to the folks at New Yorker, who have always been very nice to me. And what did I do? I rewarded them by trying to hang Stephen Glass around their neck. I’m sorry about that. It was The New Republic. Craig is shamed.

**John:** Julia also sent through this link about this article that Hanna Rosin wrote. Hanna Rosin was a contemporary of Stephen Glass working at The New Republic. When the whole thing outbroke, she felt blindsided and betrayed. But in this follow-up article, she goes to Los Angeles to meet with him and see what he’s done with his life. And she finds him as he’s trying to get the California Bar to let him become a lawyer. And so it’s all the drama surrounding that. We’ll put a link in the show notes to this really good article by Hanna Rosin that also ties into our main theme here, which is what does it mean to be a lawyer and what does the law include.

**Craig:** We should probably get a lawyer to discuss that.

**John:** Yeah, we should. I have the perfect person for us.

**Craig:** Oh, do you?

**John:** Ken White is a defense attorney and a former federal prosecutor, whose expertise includes criminal justice, free speech rights, and the intricacies of the legal system. He’s got this knack for demystifying complex legal topics, which we can witness each week on his podcast, Serious Trouble, which you should definitely subscribe to. Craig, you and I and many people may already follow him on social media, because he’s @popehat, or read his blog posts at popehat.com.

**Craig:** And Ken and I have known each other I think before the existence of podcasts.

**John:** Wow.

**Craig:** It’s going on, what, 21 years or something like that now. Welcome, Ken White.

**Ken White:** Thank you very much, guys. I’m very happy to be here.

**John:** Ken, can you talk us through, what do you mostly do in your days? I see you on social media. You’re writing stuff. You’re doing your podcast. But what is your actual day job? Who are you representing?

**Ken:** I have a practice. It includes criminal defense, in both state and federal courts, and a lot of eclectic civil cases. I really love First Amendment stuff, but I take on all sorts of other civil cases. It’s everything from plaintiffs to defendants, all sorts of subject areas, a lot of stuff.

But to answer your question, what do I do, it’s mostly paperwork. The demystifying, there’s a whole lot of paperwork of various kinds, and then there’s supervising other people doing paperwork and editing their paperwork. Then there’s asking the client to give you paperwork and then saying, “No, that’s not right. Do it again.” Then there’s arguing about paperwork in front of the judge. It’s not a job for someone who really wants the outdoors. You can be a trial lawyer, but even trial lawyers spend a lot of time not actually in court doing exciting things.

**Craig:** I gotta be honest. You were mentioning just before we started that you’re about to go into a trial. I have lots of friends who are attorneys. Trials seem like these things that sometimes occasionally happen, but most of the time it’s like watching baseball. Every now and again, something happens, but it’s a lot of stuff in between. That is the athletic version of paperwork. Our understanding, in Hollywood at least, of how this all works, I don’t recall seeing a ton of paperwork scenes, John. Do you?

**John:** No. Actually, in Clueless, one of our favorite movies, there is a lot of paperwork. She comes in and she helps out with highlighting through the depositions or something.

**Craig:** Which is disturbing.

**Ken:** As a rule of thumb, for every minute that something dramatic is happening, you spent two hours, at least, preparing for it.

**Craig:** But at least those hours earn you money.

**Ken:** Sometimes, yes, that is true.

**Craig:** Sometimes.

**John:** Now, Ken, we’re gonna get into scenes in movies and television that involve lawyers and involve the law. But I’m curious, from your side, how much of your decision to become a lawyer was based on seeing it on screen? How much of your early impression of it and your interest in it came from seeing it on screen?

**Ken:** I think I started, I just wanted to be a lawyer because my dad was a lawyer and I admired him. He was a trust and estates lawyer for his whole career, and I definitely did not wind up doing that. That was my sense. Then yeah, stuff like LA Law, which was our era, and movies like To Kill A Mockingbird and things like that, those influenced it. But most of what I learned about what being a lawyer is actually like didn’t start happening until I had jobs in college or after law school.

**John:** One of the discussions that actually prompted having you come on this podcast was we were talking about Anatomy of a Fall this last year, which was such a great movie and is a French legal courtroom drama. Watching that movie as an American, you’re just going crazy, like, how are they allowed to do this? All these rules, things we’re expecting from the American system are just not happening there. As we get into lawyer scenes, I guess we should stress that we’re really talking about the realities of the U.S. legal system, because stuff’s gonna be different any place else. This is not necessarily gonna apply to our British listeners, our French listeners, our Australian listeners.

**Craig:** Noticeable lack of wigs. You don’t have to wear a wig, do you? It would be nice if you could, Ken.

**Ken:** No, I do not.

**Craig:** Dammit.

**Ken:** I’m going in bald these days. Here’s the thing though. Most dramatic presentations of the law are so far from reality that you might as well have them be commentary on law in France or Burkina Faso or whatever you want to choose, because the delta is not meaningful, because there’s such a huge difference between the way it really works and the way you make it work on screen.

**Craig:** It sounds like we’re nailing it over here in Hollywood is what Ken’s saying.

**John:** That’s what he’s saying is we’re being 100 percent accurate.

**Ken:** But I’m okay with that. The way I see it is, it’s an art form and it’s completely different than the medium it’s describing. It’s like if someone says, “How come the movie isn’t like my favorite book?” I understand, because it’s a different medium. The same thing is, if you’re gonna depict legal stuff, it’s a very different medium than a transcript, and so you’re gonna cut out all the horrible, soul-destroying parts.

**John:** But Ken, it must be somewhat frustrating when you encounter a new client who has an expectation of how this is all gonna go, having seen legal stuff from Hollywood all these years, and then you have to confront them with the reality of what it’s really gonna be like.

**Ken:** Yes, although often, the clients have a better sense by the time they get to me.

**Craig:** Because they’re recidivists or… ?

**Ken:** Sometimes, yeah. The people I represented when I was on the Indigent Defense Panel, people accused of drug crimes, violent crimes, immigration crimes in the federal system, who couldn’t afford a lawyer, they understood. They’d seen it before, and they didn’t have any illusions about it.

The way people tend to consume it based on what they’ve seen, it’s not so much they have these movie-style expectations about the way the case works. What you’ll find is privileged people, affluent people who went to college and grew up in a good neighborhood and have never been in the system before tend to experience the system as conspiratorial. They tend to think, “This criminal case they brought against me, someone must have it out for me. The DEA himself must have it out for me. There’s a conspiracy, because I cannot conceive of any other way that I would be treated like this,” whereas the guy I’m defending in his third bank robbery is, “Oh, this is exactly the way it works. I’m getting ground through the system again.”

It takes a while for people to realize that it’s not just that the courtroom isn’t exciting as it is on a 42-minute TV show, but that the process is a lot more Kafka-esque. And it’s hard to accept that this is the way they’re treating people all the time. In fact, they’re probably treating most people worse than you.

**Craig:** The lawyers that you run into, I’m guessing both working for the state or fellow defense attorneys, are probably nowhere near as interesting, flamboyant, explosive, tricky, articulate as the lawyers we’re seeing on television and movies, but perhaps are better served by their paperwork skills.

**Ken:** Let’s not leave attractive off that list.

**Craig:** Yes, of course.

**Ken:** Yeah, absolutely.

**Craig:** Just lots of Tom Cruises moving through the courtroom.

**Ken:** Exactly. Eight out of 10 criminal defense attorneys keep their court jacket in the trunk of their car and look like it. There are a lot of characters, actually. I find trial lawyers tend to be more character-ish than people who mostly do paperwork, just because you have to be, and the system guides you to be. There’s a lot more regular, “This is my job. Not every minute is on camera and funny or dramatic,” than you expect.

**John:** As you start talking through these tropes, I guess we’re gonna mostly focus on criminal stuff, but point out when there’s differences between how a criminal and civil case might work for these situations.

Let’s think about a classic start of any criminal trial or any criminal procedure is that this person has gotten arrested. One of the very first things we hear is the Miranda rights. “You have the right to remain silent.” Can you talk us through what the realities are of a person’s rights and what a person should be doing, what that person who is arrested should be doing versus what we see them doing in movies and television?

**Craig:** Can I make a prediction?

**John:** Please.

**Craig:** Ken is gonna say, “Don’t talk to the police.”

**Ken:** Yeah, but also don’t talk to the FBI.

**Craig:** Don’t talk to anyone, really.

**Ken:** A lot of my clients are white-collar accused people. They’re in a position where someone comes to the door, knocks, and says, “Hey, we’re from the FBI. We just have a few questions.” It’s not happening when they’re getting arrested. That’s true for most white-collar crime. You first find out there’s a problem when people start coming up to you and saying, “Hey,” the whole Columbo shtick, which is very accurate, by the way, the way Columbo would just be, “I just have this one question. You know this isn’t a big deal. Why would you be worried about me?” Totally law enforcement.

Law enforcement loves to put you at ease, make you think there’s nothing wrong here, you should just talk. But you shouldn’t. Whether you’re the guy who’s just got arrested a block away from a bank robbery that just happened or you’re the CFO of a publicly traded company whose stock has taken a nosedive and the SEC shows up at your door and they want to ask you a few questions just over coffee, both times you should shut up and talk to a lawyer, because you don’t know what’s going on. You don’t know your known. Unknowns are unknown unknowns. You probably don’t know the law. You may not even know if you’ve committed a crime. You probably don’t remember all the details of the things, because you haven’t immersed yourself in them yet. You have not looked through the emails or the documents or that type of thing.

Very little good can happen from you saying, “I need to talk to my lawyer.” The trick here is people think, “But if I do that, then they’re gonna arrest me,” or, “If I do that, they’re gonna be suspicious of me.” Possibly true, but the truth is, that reminds me of the argument, “I don’t want to wear a seat belt, because if I drive into a lake, I want to be able to get out easily.” It’s that kind of thinking. You’re protecting against something that’s a lot less of a risk when you’re saying, “I don’t want to make them mad.” The big risk is that they are incredibly good at getting you to say things that are against your best interest. Overwhelmingly, the best thing to do is to shut up.

**Craig:** That’s something that I didn’t know as a kid until a television show came along: NYPD Blue. That was the first time I had seen cops complain about people lawyering up. They basically were giving you a cheat code. All the cops ever complained about was the idea that somebody would lawyer up. “We gotta get in there and get this guy to talk before he lawyers up.” All I concluded – what else could I conclude from that show other than lawyer up?

**Ken:** That’s right. Actually, that’s an area where Hollywood and movies or TV gets remarkably close to the way it really is. All those depictions in all those shows of the box and you’ve got the perp in the box, you’re gonna sweat him, that is actually pretty realistic, all of the different techniques you see. There’s probably not quite as much violence anymore as you see portrayed. But pretending to be their friend, conning them into talking, all of that is absolutely classic. That’s what they do.

**John:** Now, at some point, Ken, you are brought in, and you are their lawyer. Can you talk us through that first meeting? Because I think that’s a very classic scene we’re also seeing is that first time the lawyer is talking with their client. The questions of, are you meeting them in prison or in jail? What is the boundaries of attorney-client privilege? How much can they feel free to say to you during those moments, even if they haven’t specifically hired you at that moment? That first meeting, what are the crucial things that we’re seeing or not seeing in scenes?

**Ken:** Sure. I’ve done all of those circumstances. I’ve met them the first time in jail. I’ve met them by the phone or Zoom, in person, all those things. If they are consulting me to consider hiring me, then our communications are privilege. I can’t reveal them. There are very few exceptions, one being if they’re currently controlling a bomb that’s about to go off, something on that level, they’re imminently about to commit a violent crime. Other than that, it’s completely privileged.

You obviously have to be very careful about your location. You don’t want to be talking in a crowded restaurant. You have to be careful who’s in the room with you, because that can disrupt the privilege if there are other people in the room with you. You don’t want to be someplace where you can be overheard.

But generally, my message is always, “Okay. I need you to tell me everything that happened. I need you to tell me the whole truth. We’re gonna start slow.” But that’s absolutely key. That’s controversial. You see this all the time in TV and movies. They say, “Don’t tell me what happened,” the implication being, “I want to be able to lie for you.”

There is a rule that as an attorney you can’t put anyone on the stand to lie. You cannot knowingly solicit perjury. If the client tells me, “I was in France,” I can’t put them on and instruct them to testify, “I was in Mexico,” something like that. But that problem is vanishingly small compared to the problem of not knowing all the true facts. Most cases settle. Of the ones that go to trial, few criminal cases have defendants testify. I would say less than 20 percent. To be deliberately telling your client not to fully inform you of the full facts because of this tiny chance that someday you may want them to testify at trial and say something different is a complete misreading of the situation.

**Craig:** You’re gonna want your client to say, “Yeah, I absolutely murdered my wife.” You kind of need to know that.

**Ken:** Yeah, I do.

**Craig:** The other question I have in regards to this first meeting – it’s very typical in television and movies, if the defense attorney is either the hero or the villain, when they show up they have this attitude. They always have this attitude when they walk in, like, “Okay, stupid cops. Beat it. I’m here.” When you show up in jail, at the police station, wherever you may be, if you are interrupting that process, how do you deal with the police, knowing that they’re looking at you with either suspicion or frustration?

**Ken:** My favorite iteration of that is probably from Fish Called Wanda. But generally, when you meet with a client, you get put in a separate room. You get put someplace where you can consult in private. Generally, you can rely that those are not being recorded in there, although some types of crime, some types of things, I would not have the full conversation there.

There’s rarely that cinematic, the cops are glaring at you. Usually, you’re not dealing with the cops who investigated and arrested. You’re dealing with sheriff’s deputies who are working in the jail or something like that. That type of thing doesn’t often happen. The time when it sometimes happens is when you get a call and your client’s business is being searched by the FBI and they’re sitting out on the curb. Then you roll up and the agents are all around. Then it can be a little awkward. But it’s the job.

**John:** The other scene I can picture is this guy comes home, his wife is murdered on the floor, he calls his lawyer first and then calls the police. The lawyer’s there at the actual crime scene when the crime is first being investigated. Is that a thing that actually really happens, where someone would call the attorney before calling the police?

**Ken:** In a manner of speaking. I haven’t encountered that in a murder scenario. But all the time in white-collar cases you encounter, “Are we gonna go to the cops with this? Are we gonna self-disclose that we’ve just discovered that our COO has been cheating customers?” or something like that. That is a very common strategic question faced by attorneys: do you self-report and hope to get out the best?

I value clients who call me and let me know something is going badly at the first available opportunity. Unfortunately, all these good decisions I’m suggesting that people make are not the norm, even for really smart people. I had a client in here the other day who said, “They asked to talk to me, but I said I need to talk with my attorney. And they say, ‘Are you sure? We just want to clear some of the things up.’ I said, ‘Yes, I’m sure, but I’ll have my attorney talk to you.'” I said to him, “Would if offend you if I said I want to kiss you right on the lips?” because that is so rare and it just warms my heart. When clients do that, I’m thrilled. Too often, part of what you get when you get the case, in criminal cases or civil cases, is that the client has already run their mouth or tried to fix things or tried to make things better.

**Craig:** Now you’re in trouble.

**Ken:** And it’s made your job harder.

**John:** Another thing we see at this stage is sometimes a lawyer taking a case that’s outside of their area of expertise. You have known thing that you’re really good at, but if a difficult real estate deal came or if somebody who was normally a corporate attorney but they’re accepting a murder trial.

**Craig:** Let’s say you’re a guy from Brooklyn who happens to be in the South and your nephew gets pinched for murder.

**John:** For example.

**Craig:** What do you do then?

**John:** Are there rules about what kinds of attorneys can’t even do what kinds of jobs, or basically, if you pass the Bar, you can do that kind of case?

**Ken:** For the most part, yes. There are a few specialties where you have to be specially licensed, but generally, you can blunder in and screw up anybody’s life in any field of law. I am very careful about not taking on areas of law that I don’t know. I will tell clients, “If you want to do that, you’re gonna have to pay me to learn the law in this area. I don’t think you want to do that,” because I’ve seen how people going and not knowing what they’re doing can be dramatically bad. Having experience both in federal and state court, for instance, I’ve seen how competent, experienced state criminal defense attorneys wander into federal court and it’s a completely different world and they don’t know what they’re doing. They can just cause complete havoc, very bad for their client.

I had a client not that long ago who was in some skirmish with a neighbor. They got something from the city attorney’s office calling for them to come in for an office meeting to talk about it. They went to the real estate lawyer, who thought he was smart and says, “Ignore it. You would never talk to them.” Real estate lawyer doesn’t know that an office meeting is a city attorney thing where they basically mean, come in, we’re gonna have you shake hands, and we’re gonna send you off and dismiss it. And so instead, he got charged, because he didn’t go to the office meeting.

You gotta know what you’re doing. You have an ethical obligation to be reasonably competent at the area where you’re practicing. Criminal is one of the areas where you can make things much worse very quickly. I’m very much against people blundering where they do not belong.

**John:** No My Cousin Vinny for Ken. He’s ruining movies.

**Craig:** It sounds like, but also, he’s foreclosing the possibility of a great television show. Hear me out. Do you remember those wonderful shows where itinerant heroes would just wander peripatetically from place to place?

**Ken:** B.J. and the Bear. Kung Fu.

**Craig:** Highway to Heaven. Kung Fu. There’s tons. They would roam the earth like dinosaurs, Drew.

**John:** Reacher does the same thing today.

**Craig:** Actually, Reacher does, although it’s a season.

**John:** A little more limited.

**Craig:** It’s not week to week. Highway to Heaven, he would literally be like, “I’m done.” The Incredible Hulk.

**John:** Totally.

**Craig:** My idea is that kind of show but with a bumbling lawyer. Every week he wanders into a new town, encounters a new case that he’s completely unqualified for.

**John:** I love it.

**Craig:** Blows it completely and then is like, “Meh, did it again,” and just moves on. Ken, any chance that that would-

**Ken:** I could see it work as a farce. I love My Cousin Vinny. It’s a great legal movie, because it’s entertaining. It gets some things surprisingly right. Some of the expert cross-examination stuff they show law students. Was it a good idea for this dude who had never done a trial before to do a criminal trial? It was absolutely not a good idea.

**Craig:** Wow, except hold on a second, because his beautiful girlfriend understood about Positraction, so that part worked.

**Ken:** The other thing is you’re not gonna have Marisa Tomei with you when you’re looking to step in [crosstalk 00:23:11].

**Craig:** You probably won’t have Marisa Tomei. I guess that’s true.

**John:** Ken, you brought up ethical issues. Can we talk about conflict of interest? Because you taking on a certain client, you have to disclose your conflicts of interest there. What might those conflicts be?

**Ken:** A few of them are you can’t represent people in the same case, where their interests conflict, unless you have a knowing, intelligent written waiver from them. Typically, you’re not allowed to represent two defendants in the same trial, because they may want to point the finger at each other. It’s very rare for you to be able to do that. In civil cases, it’s much more common to represent multiple defendants in the same case. But you always have to get an elaborate waiver from them, saying, “I understand all these risks and downsides.”

There can be problems where someone wants me to sue a former client, which I won’t do. Generally, you can’t represent one client against another current or former client if you might have gotten relevant secret information from that former client. There are all sorts of rules like that. When you have a personal financial stake in what’s going on, you can’t do it. There are often ways to get waivers from clients. Sometimes there’s not. The judge gets to make the ultimate call about whether or not it’s right.

It’s something you really have to watch out for. When you have a harmonious group of people who want to hire you, and obviously they want to hire one lawyer and not pay for five lawyers for the five of them, things can go south very quickly when they stop being harmonious. When that group gets angry at each other, then all of a sudden you’re hoping that you did the conflict waivers right.

**Craig:** The collection of dingdongs around Donald Trump constantly backbiting at each other. What a wonderful clown party that is to watch. But the other conflict of interest that we tend to see in movies and television are lawyers sleeping with each other.

**John:** I was gonna say, is it a conflict of interest if you fell in love with your client?

**Craig:** Or a client. Oh, god.

**Ken:** First of all, ew. Second of all-

**Craig:** That’s just based on your client [crosstalk 00:25:18].

**John:** Absolutely. You don’t have Sharon Stone as your client?

**Ken:** Believe me. You could have the most attractive client in the world and spend an hour talking to them and you may not want to sleep with anyone ever again. Most State Bars have rules about carrying on romantic relationships with clients. It’s sometimes not classified as a conflict-of-interest issue, although it could be. But it’s generally, in most states now, considered unethical and improper, because it clouds your judgment. They can’t make the right decisions about whether or not to get a new lawyer. Their judgment is clouded. But of course, it’s a trope in fiction forever, and that’s because it does happen and you see it. And it quite often winds up very badly.

**John:** I want to circle back to this idea of representing multiple parties, because I think to Succession, and as the Roy family starts suing each other, one of the things that comes up again and again is, are you going to join this bigger group or have your own lawyer? The smart people seem to have their own lawyer.

**Ken:** Yeah, particularly if you’re the weakest person in the group. If the corporation is in the face of a criminal investigation and they hire one lawyer to represent the CEO, the CFO, and Jimmy the janitor, Jimmy may take it in the shorts, because most of the attention is not gonna be given to him. He has a reason to worry that they’re not gonna be looking out for his best interests or alerting him when a real conflict of interest comes up.

There are always problems in situations where there are all sorts of conflicting loyalties and things like that. That’s why you have to very carefully analyze who the clients are, what their relationship is, to what extent are they going to want to point the finger at each other to defend themselves in this case, and how can we deal with that. That comes with very frank early conversations with clients, which is difficult, because – and this is something we should talk about – clients lie.

**John:** Let’s get into that, because that’s also a trope of these stories is that the lawyer, very deep into how it all goes, realizes there’s a whole separate thing that they’ve not been told about.

**Craig:** Richard Gere shows up and he’s like, “What about the book and the videotape and all that?”

**John:** Or Edward Norton is actually a psychopath.

**Craig:** Edward Norton, he didn’t do anything wrong, and then he did.

**John:** Yeah, and then he did.

**Craig:** Then he didn’t, but then he did. Then he didn’t, he did. But you catch your client in a lie. What is that? Is that a confrontation? Does it get sparky?

**Ken:** It can. It depends on the nature of the lie. The thing is, clients lie, not because clients are bad or because these are evil people involved in crime and civil disputes. Clients lie because people lie. People particularly lie when they’re scared and under stress and upset. The people I meet are scared and under stress and upset. They’re often embarrassed and humiliated by what’s happened. They’re trying to figure out what’s going on. They’re trying to wrap their mind around it. It takes a while for them to get a comfort level with you so they’ll come completely clean.

Think about it. How many people do we all really be completely transparent and nakedly open with about things? Probably a lot of the time, not even our spouses or best friends or confessors or whoever. It’s not human nature. It can take a lot of work to get the point where the client is comfortable doing that. Some of them never get all the way comfortable. Some of them can’t admit out loud they’ve done something. Sometimes they lie, and it causes me problems.

I’ve had clients lie up and down after I’ve given them the whole speech for hours, and it’s had bad impact on the case. I’ve had clients lie in the first meeting and I found out an hour after I left. And I fired them, just because I didn’t want to deal with it. Every attorney knows this. I represent humans in bad positions. People like that take a while to get around to being able to tell me the truth.

**John:** Circling back to the article from The New Republic that Julia Turner sent through, one of the things interesting is Stephen Glass is working as a paralegal, and one of his jobs was, as new clients came in, he was the person who first talked them through this is how it’s all gonna go. He fully disclosed, “I was fired for doing this terrible thing where I made up all this stuff and I lied.” He spends a lot of time explaining how he lied and how it was a bad thing, and in the belief it actually got the clients to be more open and transparent about what stuff was actually happening. That’s also his point of view on the whole thing, so he may be doing some fabulism right there.

**Craig:** Possibly.

**John:** But your ideal client would just sit down with you from the first meeting and say, “Here is everything. I am holding nothing back,” correct?

**Ken:** My idea is that anything that’s remotely complicated, that it’s gonna take a lot of meetings. I’m gonna set the table with the first meeting by explaining how important this is and going through some stuff. Then we’re gonna go through it in more detail. I’m gonna take the measure of the client. This is something you learn over the course of this career over decades. Take a sense of them, how long it’s gonna take to romance the truth out of them. Sometimes that gets right; sometimes that gets wrong.

The things you see in movies and TV, it’s very classic, it’s almost a cliché, I think, where the defendant has told them some of it, but then there’s one aspect they haven’t told them. They say, “I was embarrassed. I thought you wouldn’t believe me.” That’s very real. That happens frequently, where they’ve told me 80 percent of it but not the other 20 percent or something like that. That’s again just human nature.

**John:** In these initial setup things, and before we get to any trial or any sort of settlement, talk through some possible escape hatches. Spousal privilege, like the idea that you cannot be forced to testify against your spouse, is that a real thing? What are the edges of that? Because you see this in movies and TV.

**Ken:** This is a great Bar Exam question. There are two spousal related privileges. One is a spousal communications privilege. That means I can prevent my wife from testifying about a confidential communication we had during the course of our marriage. The other is testimonial privilege. That’s my wife can’t be compelled to testify against me while we’re married, not that she would need to be.

**Craig:** She could choose it though.

**Ken:** Exactly. She could [crosstalk 00:31:58].

**Craig:** Certainly, your wife would.

**Ken:** Yeah. They would have to say, “No, you’ve testified enough, Ms. Harbers. That’s enough.”

**Craig:** “Please sit down.”

**Ken:** Those are real things. They actually do come up all the time. They come up in context like taking the deposition of a husband or wife and asking them about something that their spouse said to them. That can be under the privilege. Things like that. Those are real things. Those come up. Those are usually evidentiary issues that come up at trial or during the discovery process.

**John:** You bring up evidentiary issues. One of the things we also see in movies and TV is where the attorney or Matlock’s assistant goes out and does some digging around and finds out the truth and does some investigation. How much investigation, discovery, and evidence gathering is actually typical and allowed and commonplace in the kinds of cases that you’re taking?

**Ken:** My types of cases, quite a lot. Now, in criminal cases, you’re supposed to be getting discovery from the government. They’re supposed to be turning over stuff. But you will definitely do your own supplemental investigation, whether it’s having people interviewed or researching records or whatever it is, depending on the nature of the case.

I learned very early on how important that was. A very early case I had when I got out of the government was a young guy who had been arrested while doing a summer at a prestigious college. He gets arrested for having meth and a gun in a drawer in his bureau in the college dorm room. He says, “It’s not mine. Someone must’ve put it there.” I’m like, “Yeah, sure, kid.” I hire an investigator to investigate the roommate, because the parents have the money to do this. Come to find out the roommate just got out of jail for stealing things from other people at this prestigious college and blaming it on other people, trying to frame other people for the crimes.

**Craig:** Wait a second. Hold on.

**Ken:** I went and I used that information, because this guy who did that was the one who turned my client in to the police, said, “Look what I found in the drawer of the bureau.” I brought that to the DA. I said, “Your witness is probably gonna be taking offense, but I’m gonna make mincemeat out of him.” They wound up giving my client a deal, a diversion program, stay out of trouble for a year and no charges.

That’s an example of why you have to learn to investigate things, even if you’re dubious, because the thing about these cases and this system is you can get so worn down and so into a rut that you can stop seeing people as individuals, stop believing their stories, just see them as a statistic. I’ve seen this case a million times before. It always plays out like this. Lose your edge that way. You’ve gotta keep your edge. You’ve got to always make the inquiries and put in the work to do that job for your client.

**John:** Let’s talk about who’s doing that work. You said you hadana investigator. Is that a private investigator, or is that classically a person who’s licensed to do that, or is it someone else who’s working for the firm? Who does that?

**Ken:** It depends on the case and the type of law. Typically, criminal cases, we have private investigators we have relationships with. A lot of them are ex-journalists or ex-federal agents, things like that. They’re good at wheedling information out of people, that type of thing. There’s not a lot of gunplay with them, but there’s a lot of tracking people down and talking to them, getting them to talk. We have different investigators for different types. Sometimes they’re in-house; sometimes they’re not. It really depends on the occasion.

Civil is often very different, because civil discovery is a lot more active. You’re sending formal demands to the other side. You’re entitled to do things like demand they produce particular documents or answer questions or sit for a deposition. You have a lot more leeway of how you investigate in a civil case.

**John:** Let’s say that you’ve talked to the client. You see what the case is laid out before you. Before you would go to trial, there’s some discussion of reaching a settlement. Are you the person who reaches out with, “Hey, let’s sit down and talk this through.” When something comes to a settlement before trial, what’s tended to happen?

**Ken:** It very much depends on the type of case and how serious it is. Your run-of-the-mill misdemeanor or petty felony, probably at arraignment they’re gonna tell you the offer. If you show up on a DUI, they’re probably gonna tell you this is the standard offer for first-offense DUIs. They’ll tell you that at the first appearance. Other cases, either you approach the prosecutor, or the prosecutor approaches you, say, “Are you interested?” There’s the dance of pretending, “No. I’m taking this to trial, but just for the sake of argument, what are you offering?” It’s a lot more formal and complex in federal court. A federal plea agreement is just monstrosity, 20 pages long. It’s a lot more informal in state court.

But the bottom line is usually one side or the other suggests, “Can we talk about it?” That’s really just a matter of schedule management. If you’re the prosecutor and you have 20 cases set for trial, you want to figure out which one of them is gonna go, and so they’re gonna want to make inquiries. If you’re a defense lawyer, you know that if someone’s gonna plead, the earlier they plead and possibly cooperate with the government, the more credit they’re gonna get, the more lenient sentence they’re gonna get.

**John:** A thing we saw out of Georgia was the use of racketeering laws, and so where you’re rounding up a bunch of people and you’re putting them all together on trial as one big thing.

**Craig:** Ken loves RICO, by the way.

**John:** Yeah, loves it. I listen to your podcast, so I know RICO is one of your favorite things on earth.

**Craig:** I like when he says he did a RICO.

**John:** In those situations, there could be a real benefit to being the first person to turn on the rest of the group. As the attorney representing that individual person, you’re looking at everybody else around you, and it feels like there’s a prisoner’s dilemma aspect to that as well.

**Ken:** Sure, there is. It’s not just RICO or really complicated cases. Any multi-defendant case or any case that’s connected to a larger investigation, if you can say, “My guy’s gonna come in and tell you everything,” and you’re the first in the door, then you’re gonna get the very best deal. In state court, that means allowed to plead to the most lenient thing with the most lenient recommendation. In federal court, it means allowed to plead to a lesser set of charges with a better sentencing recommendation in a more complex way.

The thing is that, yeah, it’s always a prisoner’s dilemma. You know that everyone in this situation is trying to find the least terrible way out of it. You always decide who’s gonna jump. A lot of the time, cases like the one we see in Georgia with Donald Trump and in similar cases, you have what’s called joint defense agreements. Those are agreements among the lawyers for the defendants. What they agree is that, “I’m gonna share information about what I learned from my client about this case and this situation. You’re gonna share yours. And we all agree to keep it confidential among ourselves and not disclose it.” And if anyone starts to cooperate, then they have to leave the group.

The point of this is to preserve the attorney-client privilege. The idea is that normally the attorney-client privilege only applies to a confidential communication. But the idea is if you talk to a group of people that has equal obligation to keep it secret, then you haven’t taken it outside the circle of privilege. That’s very common. In there, someone will say, “We’re leaving the group,” and then you know, okay, they’re about to cooperate, something like that.

But yeah, all the time. And usually in white-collar cases, it’s a lot more friendly, collegial. A lot more information is exchanged. Less of that in drug cases, violence cases, things like that. It’s a little more cutthroat. But yeah, that type of thing, that type of maneuvering is absolutely real.

**John:** Despite your best efforts, there’s no ability to reach a negotiated settlement. Talk us through what are the steps before we get to trial, what kind of things we would see before we get to trial.

**Ken:** Usually, when you’re getting ready for a trial, you have to put together all the exhibits that you’re gonna use. You have to have a witness list. Often, you’re required to propose jury instructions ahead of time. Those are crucial, because that’s where the judge tells the jury what the relevant law is. You’re gonna file a trial brief pointing out the legal issues that are gonna come up at trial.

Probably most crucially, you’re gonna be filing something called a motion in limine, meaning a limiting motion. That’s a motion saying, “Judge, this piece of evidence is illegal. You should keep it out. This piece of evidence is too inflammatory. You should keep it out. You should let me bring in this piece of evidence.” The motions in limine are incredibly important, because they can completely shape how the trial goes by what evidence is allowed to come in and what evidence isn’t allowed to come in. Before you’re picking that jury, we’ve alighted tons of work that’s very paperwork-intensive, very boring to show on film, but actually has a huge influence on how the case comes out.

**John:** Now let’s talk about – you’ve gone through all the evidentiary hearings. You’ve figured out what stuff is gonna get eliminated. Can you talk us through the jury selection process? What is that actually like? What do we see on film versus what the reality is?

**Ken:** It can go anywhere from super simple to super complicated. There are judges, particularly in simple cases, who do it lightning fast. The judges do all the questioning themselves, don’t let the lawyers talk to the jurors. I’ve known judges where you can have a jury picked in half a day. There are other cases, particularly cases that are gonna be super long or complicated, where you might have to do preliminary work. You might have to do something called qualify the jury. This RICO case against Trump and his pals in Georgia is such a one. Jurors are gonna get questionnaires saying, “Hey, would you be available for the next 9 to 12 months to sit in the uncomfortable chairs?”

**Craig:** Totally available. Wait, is it for RICO? Then yes.

**Ken:** Also, “Have you ever heard of Donald Trump? Do you have opinions about him?” That type of thing.

**Craig:** Who?

**Ken:** Bigger, more complicated cases, there will be screening of the jurors. Then there’s disputes over who gets to ask questions of the jurors. Some judges want to do it all themselves, because when we lawyers do it, then it’s called voir dire. We’re really doing two things. One is we are questioning the juror to find out whether we think they’re a good juror or not, but another is we’re developing a rapport with them and showing them themes of our case, like, “Ma’am, would you agree that if someone is standing there and a guy runs up with a knife that you might think he’s danger and might have to defend himself?” That type of thing. You’re trotting out your themes. You’re starting to get them thinking about who the people in the cases are. You’re making yourself hopefully entertaining or at least palatable to the jury.

Then you just go through, and different courtrooms have different ways of doing it, but generally there are jurors that you ask the judge to get rid of for cause, meaning that the judge strikes them because there’s some legal cause they shouldn’t be a juror, like they really can’t speak English well or they said that, “My dad’s a cop. I couldn’t be fair,” something like that.

Then you generally have what are called peremptory challenges, which are challenges that you get to use in your discretion to knock people out. You’re not allowed to use them based on race or gender or prohibited characteristics like that, notwithstanding that of course it happens all the time, particularly from the government. You’re using your sensibility. Who’s gonna be a good juror for me, who’s not. If you’re a prosecutor or if you’re the defendant in a case where the plaintiff’s asking for a lot of money, you want a solid citizen, someone who doesn’t believe in handing out money, someone who works for their money, someone who’s respectable, somewhat conservative, that type of thing. If you’re the defendant in the criminal case or the plaintiff in the case, it’s the other way around. You’re looking for people.

It’s totally an art and not a science. There are all sorts of shows about how it’s a science and you can attach electrodes to them and stuff like that and do it scientifically. My wife watches some of those, and I’m not allowed to be in the same room, because it agitates me almost as much as NCIS. I’m not allowed to be in the same room because of the comments I make.

**John:** Because what you’re seeing is that it does not reflect reality at all in terms of the ability to micro-slice who these people are?

**Ken:** No. There are people who make tons of money doing it, but I am super skeptical of that. I think it’s dousing, basically. I think it’s [unintelligible 00:44:56].

**Craig:** There was an entire movie about – was it Rainmaker or something like that? It was the Coppola movie where it was an expert to figure out exactly who should be on the jury using their mind powers. Basically, you’re just getting people that said that they would be available for nine months. There are certain things we can all conclude.

**John:** Maybe a speed round here. I want to talk a little bit about courtroom etiquette, because there’s things we see a lot in movies and television.

**Craig:** I object.

**John:** Talk to us about “I object.” Talk to us about objections and talking over objections. What does object mean and what are the edges of the reality of objection?

**Ken:** There’s a sliding scale of the formality of objections. The low end is a local, state court, and the high end is federal court. I always do it as if I’m in federal court, because then I can’t screw up. To do it properly, you stand up, you say, “Objection,” and then briefly the basis, “Hearsay.” The judge rules. What you’re not supposed to do is say it from a seated position. You’re not supposed to go off on a speech.

**Craig:** Objection.

**Ken:** “Objection. He knows he can’t do that. Since the beginning of time, the laws… ” That’s a speaking objection. You’re supposed to do it briefly. It’s a rule often broken. You’re not supposed to make a lot of bogus objections just to throw somebody off. Judges will eventually call you on that, and the jury will see it.

**Craig:** Has a judge ever said to you, “I’ll allow it, but watch yourself, counselor.” That seems to be in literally every – judges are constantly allowing objections but saying, “But I’ve got my eye on you.” Is that a thing?

**Ken:** If they were gonna say something like that, it would probably be at a sidebar, outside the hearing of the jury. That’s something that does happen. But no, they don’t put it like that in front of the jury. They might say, “I’ll let you ask a couple of questions, but get to the point quickly.” Something like that.

**Craig:** “Where are you going with this?”

**John:** Something that frustrates Craig and I – is begging the question actually a legitimate objection? If someone says, “Objection; begging the question.”

**Ken:** It is not a legal objection. I think actually-

**Craig:** It’s a mistake of thought.

**Ken:** … “states facts not in evidence” might be the right… Let’s face it; 90 percent of people use “begging the question” wrong anyway.

**Craig:** 90 percent is a very low estimate.

**Ken:** I discovered, to my dismay, having been married for nearly 30 years now, that being able to use “begging the question” correctly drives literary people wild. If I had known this in my early 20s, it would’ve been a completely different social scene for me.

**Craig:** Absolutely. No question. It’s a very narrow group of people, very curious group of people. Peter Sagal over there at NPR I think is the king of the movement.

**John:** Here’s a question for you. I see in movies and TV where the attorney seems to be addressing the jury rather than addressing whoever is on the stand. That’s a no-no, correct?

**Ken:** Unless it’s an opening or closing statement, correct, you’re not supposed to address the jury. And the judge will yell at you if you do that sort of thing.

**Craig:** What about that sly look over to the jury? Are you allowed to do that?

**Ken:** The thing is you want to be careful about that, because you might not be as irresistible to the jury as you think you are. One of my partners did a trial against the SEC. About midway through the trial, the jury sends out a note saying, “Can you ask the lawyer from the SEC to stop looking at us? He’s creeping us out.”

**Craig:** Oh, man.

**Ken:** Kind of sunk in his chair for the rest of the trial. It’s a bit of a blow to his ego. You want to be careful with that. If I’m cross-examining something and they’re being really argumentative or not answering the question, I will mug a little bit for the jury. I’ll roll my eyes and look in their direction, make eye contact, that type of thing. But you want to do it sparingly.

**John:** A thing we see in movies and TV is forceful gavel banging, where the judge is banging to get people to shut up or stuff. Is that a thing that you’ve encountered in your real life?

**Ken:** The only time I’ve seen gavels used is to open a session. I’ve had judges pound on the bench, one memorable occasion, to punctuate, “Mr. White, no, you may not.” But it’s pretty rare. Judges will yell, but banging on things, that type of theatrics, not so much anymore.

**John:** You brought up sidebar. Tell us, what conversations should be happening in sidebar that probably too often in our scenes are happening in front of the jury and everybody else?

**Ken:** Stuff that is not clear whether it’s admissible or not, and it might be prejudicial. Let’s say that we’re in a trial and the attorney questioning the witness starts getting into an issue of whether they’re having an affair, and it has nothing to do with the subject matter of the case. You would ask to speak at sidebar, because you don’t want to spell out to the jury, oh yeah, we don’t want you guys to know about the client having an affair, because you might treat them badly. Things like that where the judge may decide the jury shouldn’t hear about this are typically done at sidebar. All sidebar really is is a mechanism to keep things going, because it takes forever to troop the jury in and out of the jury box, and so you don’t want to send them all back into the room, because then you waste 15 minutes.

**Craig:** Maybe you should try directing a scene with 100 extras, my friend.

**Ken:** I’m sure. They’re probably better behaved than jurors.

**Craig:** Possibly.

**Ken:** It’s a way to do things. And it frustrates jurors, I think. Again, you don’t want to be constantly going up to sidebar, because the judge will start just telling you no. You gotta use it sparingly.

**John:** Great. We’re in trial. One of the cliches we see is people who decide to represent themselves at trial, which I’m sure for you is terrifying. What are the realities? If I got accused of a crime, I’m allowed to do that, right, even if I don’t have any background in law?

**Ken:** You are. Actually, it’s kind of tricky, because the judge has to give you sufficiently full explanation of why it’s really stupid to do that. If the judge doesn’t, you might have an appeal later. “I didn’t realize how stupid it was.” But the judge can’t prevent you from doing it, unless the judge finds basically that you don’t understand what you’re doing or not competent or something like that. It’s threading the needle for the judge.

It’s almost always horrific for the person. I’ve heard it described as a slow plea. This isn’t rocket science, what I do, but there’s a lot of things to it. You gotta know how to do it. You gotta have learned how to do it. If you’re just throwing it in, you don’t know the jargon, and there’s lots of jargon. You don’t know the rules. Just getting something into evidence, understanding what it means to lay a foundation for a piece of evidence so it can be admitted into evidence is something that you have to learn. It’s generally terrible. Usually, people wind up making things much worse.

**John:** Let’s say we’re in trial now. You’re gonna have witnesses up on the stand. You might have your own client, which for good reasons you probably won’t put your client on the stand, but you might. There are gonna be other witnesses that you’re gonna be putting up there. What kind of preparation can you do with a witness, are you allowed to do with a witness, if it’s your client, versus if it’s somebody else? What are the edges of what you’re allowed to do there in terms of getting them ready for it? There’s limits to how much you can coach them.

**Ken:** Let’s take non-clients first. You can absolutely talk to non-clients, unless they’re represented by a different attorney. You can ask them questions. You can say, “Do you mind if we go through the questions I’m gonna ask you?” You might even use the word “practice,” depending on how friendly they are. You can go through. You can ask them.

I’m careful. I don’t tell them, “It’d be better if you didn’t say that. It would be better if you said this instead.” I try to be more subtle and say, “Let me ask you about that answer. My impression was X, but you’re saying Y. Can you explain how I have it wrong?” They eventually get to maybe they were wrong. When they realize they were wrong, they clarify it. Whatever.

You can’t tell them what to say, and you absolutely can’t tell them to lie. But there’s a fair amount of leeway in going through their testimony in advance. And everyone does it. You can believe that federal prosecutors, before they put someone on the stand in Sam Bankman-Fried’s case, have gone through the questions with that person two to five times.

**Craig:** Debate prep.

**Ken:** Exactly, exactly. With a client, it’s different, because it’s protected by the attorney-client privilege. You cannot put the client on the stand to lie. You cannot knowingly elicit perjured testimony. That’s why that thing we discussed before, this trend where some lawyers say, “That’s why you’d never ask the client what happened and you’d tell them not to tell you yet, so it doesn’t prevent you from putting any story on they want,” to me, that’s absolutely lunatic, because you can’t defend them. You can’t know what the defense is. You can’t organize the case, know where the pitfalls are, unless you know what happened and what they know.

**Craig:** That does seem like a terrible strategy, like, “Look, the deal is we’re just gonna black box this thing. I’m gonna put you on the stand. You’re gonna say some stuff. That’ll probably work.” What do I need a lawyer for?

**Ken:** The thing is, this is a real thing that some lawyers do.

**Craig:** It’s crazy.

**Ken:** I watched a debate that turned into basically a screaming match between Alan Dershowitz and a different professor 30 years ago in the trial skills class I took, where they were arguing over this very thing, whether or not you stop the client from blurting out stuff, prevent them from locking themselves in. This is one of the few times you’re on Alan Dershowitz’s side. It’s lunacy not to get every piece of information you can get out of the client. The downside of not being able to get them to lie is comparatively extremely minor.

**John:** Let’s talk about witnesses. Prosecution and defense are both going to, I guess, provide a list of the witnesses they’re going to bring, so that both sides can prepare. But in movies and TV, we’re constantly seeing surprise witnesses, like, oh my god, this person we thought was dead is now coming to sit on the stand. What are the rules around witnesses who were not previously announced and scheduled?

**Ken:** Generally, that doesn’t happen. It’s rare for it to happen. It’s rare to find out that someone you didn’t know before – especially civil cases. In civil cases, you’ve had years of written discovery, where each side has been telling the other, “Name every person in the universe who has knowledge about this case and that you’ve decided to depose them or not,” and then you’ve made a witness list for trial and all those sort of things. Showing up and saying, “Oh, I’ve got a new guy,” usually is not gonna go over well. There’s gonna have to be some pretty convincing reason that you could not have found them before for the judge to let that happen. The more important they are, the more that is the case. The same with evidence. Unless you can really show you couldn’t have found it without due diligence earlier, then it’s gonna be very hard to get it in at trial.

Now, one way that can happen is if the other side reveals something for the first time. Then you’re allowed to rebut. The things about disclosing evidence generally don’t prevent you from keeping a few things back for your rebuttal case. If the other side has lied, as they often do, calling them out as liars. That’s tricky, and you might not get the opportunity to do it. But that is not common.

**John:** We’re talking about witnesses and evidence, but sometimes in films and TV, the lawyer themselves is demonstrating something to the jury. It could be as part of the closing argument or something else that happens. You mentioned To Kill A Mockingbird. Atticus Finch throws a glass at Tom to prove that he’s left-handed. Is that a thing that could actually happen in real life?

**Craig:** You’re gonna throw glasses in the courtroom?

**Ken:** It could happen, but the judge would blow their stack.

**Craig:** You’re saying even if you asked your client to put on some gloves in front of the jury and they didn’t fit-

**Ken:** That’s different. When Atticus Finch throws that cup, the client catching it in one hand is not testimonial, and the client’s not under oath. There’s an implicit, “Here’s how I do things,” but it’s not under oath and it’s not subject to cross-examination. That’s why it’s inappropriate. You could get a client who is on the stand to demonstrate something, with the judge’s permission there, and you can get them to say, “Yes, I’m lefthanded.” The judge probably is not gonna let you surprise them in the middle and throw something to them. Generally, anything that looks super cute or gimmicky probably is gonna get you yelled at by the judge.

**John:** But what is the actual impact of being yelled at by the judge? Is it causing a mistrial? Is he then giving jury instructions? What actually happens? What is the consequence?

**Ken:** I love this question, because it’s so much of what you learn over the course of the practice. You don’t want the judge to yell at you in front of the jury, because the jury’s gonna become convinced that you’re a bad person and you’re doing bad lawyer things, unless the judge is kind of an asshole and the jury is sympathetic with you.

Once upon a time I tried a case as a prosecutor where the judge was being super mean to the rookie defense lawyer and yelling at her and beating her up and generally being a bully, and the jury was looking sympathetic to her. I was thinking, okay, this could go badly. They could “not guilty” just out of sympathy. I was pretty young. I thought, “I have an idea. I’ll make the judge yell at me too.” This was a judge who was famous for yelling. I wandered into the well in the center of the courtroom. I spoke from a seated position. I called them “Judge” instead of “Your Honor.” Before long, he was yelling at both of us. Then the young public defender comes over and says to me, “I know what you’re doing,” and she steps in. Arguably, this is where it went off the rails a bit. But by the end of the day, the guy is bright purple. Usually, you don’t want to do that sort of thing.

Here’s the thing about judges yelling. If it’s not in front of the jury and if it’s not impacting actual rulings, you’ve gotta learn to deal with it. Judges yell. Judges are human. They deal with a lot of stress. Some of them have personalities. You want to learn more about the bite than the bark.

When I have young associates I supervise and a judge is getting mean or they’ll worry the judge is gonna get mean, I refer them in the end of Quentin Tarantino’s Inglourious Basterds, where Brad Pitt’s character shoots the Nazis’ aid, because he’s so mad that the Nazis-

**Craig:** You’ll be shot [crosstalk 00:59:24]. More like chewed out.

**Ken:** I’ve been chewed out before.

**Craig:** I’ve been chewed out before.

**Ken:** I’ve been chewed out before.

**Craig:** Chewed out before.

**Ken:** I’ve been yelled at by judges before, and I’ll be yelled at by judges again. You just deal with it.

**John:** A trial happens. We’ve gone through all – it could be months. It could be short. But ultimately, there’s a verdict. That verdict becomes the title of many movies. That is the moment of closure for this whole experience. What do you see in movies and TV that get it right and what are the things that frustrate you about how they get it wrong about verdicts?

**Ken:** They get it right in terms of dramatically. They make it a good close to the story. In real life, you have appeals. You’ve got post-trial motions. Most times if you win a big civil jury award, the other side is gonna file a motion-

**Craig:** To reduce it.

**Ken:** … for a new trial, a motion to reduce it, a motion for judgment notwithstanding, blah blah blah blah blah.

**Craig:** Paperwork.

**Ken:** Yeah, there’s always a lot of paperwork. We see this with all the stuff in the news right now that Trump is going through, where there are these big judgments and now he’s posting bond so that he can appeal them without being collected on. Sentencing can often be quite dramatic. Usually, that does not happen at the time of the verdict. It’s another time. That could be a good moment for drama.

It’s certainly stomach-wrenching when you’re the defense attorney standing next to your client who’s gonna find out how long they’re gonna be in jail, and when you worry about what your client’s about to say, because one dramatic part about sentencing is that they always ask the client – the client has a right to allocate, to say something. This is an absolutely terrifying, piss in your pants moment for the defense attorney, because clients, no matter what, if they’ve been convicted, they feel it’s unfair. And if they express that, it goes badly.

I’ve seen clients, even though they were exquisitely prepared, go from probably they were gonna do community service to jail, by talking about what a victim they are in all of this. Client in that moment can make it much worse. You really have to sit on them and make them not express how they’re feeling, because how they’re feeling is a victim.

**John:** But I want to be clear here. If they were to confess to the crime or admit guilt in that moment, that is evidence that can be used against them in any sort of future appeal. They obviously don’t want to say, “I did it, but just be merciful on me.”

**Ken:** It wouldn’t be used against them in an appeal. The problem is more if they demonstrate lack of contrition or if they make their image in the judge’s eyes worse. If you’ve pled guilty in particular, you don’t want to get up there and suggest you don’t think you really did anything wrong, because you pled guilty. Like we saw recently, Sam Bankman-Fried’s sentencing, the judge found him very not remorseful, because of his personality and the way he talks, and that probably contributed somewhat to the sentence.

**John:** Ken, as we wrap up here, are there any other aspects of law as portrayed on film and television that we haven’t talked, that you want to make sure that our listeners, who are mostly writers, are aware of?

**Ken:** Sure. Entertainment gets some things right. Trial lawyers, criminal lawyers, terrible divorce rates, lots of alcoholism, lots of drug abuse, lots of mental health problems, suicide rate that looks like a Latvian phone number, it’s all really terrible, and it’s a high-stress job. So when entertainment portrays people as suffering through it, that’s actually fairly accurate. They are. There are people out there who are just unflappable and seem to have no problems getting through it. I always suspect they’re just in their office sucking off some huge bong to be that mellow going through this, because-

**Craig:** Or killing cats.

**Ken:** … it’s incredibly stressful. That part gets right. Gets wrong” objections. Objections are a big part of most legal TV shows and some movies. I would be almost happier if you didn’t even try, unless you have a lawyer actually tell you what a real objection is or not, because that’s another thing that takes me way out is when it’s a completely stupid nonsense objection and the response is completely nonsense. I would say it would be worth it to ask a lawyer about the objections. You could still make them dramatic. You could make good ones. But some ones, every lawyer watching is gonna go, “Oh, Jesus Christ.” And then my wife says, “Shut up. Shut up.”

**Craig:** I’ve heard her say that.

**John:** Ken, thank you so much for all this legal stuff. Let’s get to our One Cool Things. Craig, you have a One Cool Thing here I see in the Workflowy.

**Craig:** Yeah, this is really in honor of you, Ken. There is a category of videos that every now and then, when I’m feeling a little sad, I turn on and watch, because, god, it makes me feel great. There’s hundreds of them compiled all for your enjoyment. Just google “sovereign citizens getting owned.” It is so much fun. Are you familiar with this, John?

**John:** I have no idea what this is.

**Craig:** Sovereign citizens are dipshits who subscribe to a theory that they aren’t really people under the law, that the United States as currently constituted is some sort of admiralty or maritime law thing, that they aren’t really a person but a corporation. It’s endless reams of nonsense. Inevitably, they will get pulled over for speeding or their tags are expired or they’re in court for a misdemeanor, a traffic problem, or something more serious, and they begin this nonsense talk. It goes so bad for them so quick every single time. There are people who sovereign citizened their way into like, this cop was gonna give you a $25 parking ticket and now you’re tazed and you’re going to jail. They’re so stupid. Apparently, the one thing about sovereign citizens is they don’t watch these videos, because if they did, they would stop it. Anyway, if you want to see people representing themselves pro se, being idiots, saying nonsense, having judges roll their eyes and go, “I literally don’t know what you’re talking about,” just go ahead and google “sovereign citizens getting owned.” It’s a joy.

**Ken:** I’ll echo that.

**John:** Excellent.

**Ken:** Sovereign citizens, you have to think of them as really, really committed legal furries. They’ve got this persona. They’ve got the costume. They’ve got the lingo. They’re super into it, no matter what consequence it has on living their lives.

**Craig:** They’re so into it. They think they know the law. You’re seeing somebody reading this, and you’re like, “What?” They like Latin.

**John:** Of course.

**Craig:** They love Latin, but they don’t know why. It’s wonderful.

**John:** It’s excellent stuff. My One Cool Thing is something that was very useful for me this past week. It’s called LibreOffice. It’s a multi-platform app you can find for Windows, for Mac, for everything else, that I would never actually use as a word processor. You could use it as a word processor. But it could just open anything. You can throw any old file type at it, and it seems to be able to open it. I have these old, right now, files for pitches that I did in the ’90s, and it’s the only thing I could find that could open it, but it opens it beautifully. I discovered like, “Oh, that’s right, this is one I was pitching on Highlander in the ’90s.” I can now pull up that old Highlander pitch.

**Craig:** You can finally read that thing. Can we do some research? I feel like LibreOffice was one of my One Cool Things at some point a while ago.

**John:** It totally could be.

**Craig:** Dig it up. I’m so rarely ahead of the curve. It’s almost always that I say something, John’s like, “That was my One Cool Thing two years ago and you said it was stupid.”

**Ken:** Craig, my cohost doesn’t listen to me either, so this is-

**Craig:** Good company.

**John:** The book Less, you had recommended it, and then three years later I recommended it, and we found out it was great.

**Craig:** There you go. Every now and again.

**John:** LibreOffice, I would never actually use it as my main word processor.

**Craig:** I do remember something like that being an open-source thing, just because Microsoft Word is so goddamn annoying. I do have a bunch of old files. I don’t even know what they are at this point.

**John:** Exactly. I throw it on and see if it happens. The thing I’m probably most frustrated, I used to use Movie Magic Screenwriter, and that’s actually a binary format.

**Craig:** It’s dead.

**John:** It’s dead, hard to open.

**Craig:** Gone.

**John:** Ken, do you have a One Cool Thing to share with us?

**Ken:** I do. Obviously, your listeners are podcast fans. I’m a huge history podcast buff. I love them, particularly when I’m commuting or on trips or things like that. I’ve just been having a blast with a podcast The Rest is History. It’s two British historians, one of them named Tom Holland, not the Spider-Man one, the other one, and the other one named Dominic Sandbrook. They have a real great rapport and chemistry. They are really knowledgeable of a wide variety of things. They delve into a huge range of different historical things. Each podcast is maybe a half an hour, 40 minutes long, perfect for a commute. Sometimes they do deep dives that are multiple episodes about something, like the background of the Titanic or JFK assassination or whatever. But they have a real love for the subject. They have a great way of conveying the similarities between these people in history and us and seeing the common threads.

They’re great at conveying how the values of historians that have told us about this stuff, how those impact how the story gets told and why you have to discount some things, because you can’t listen to the Greeks talk about the Persians, because they have all these stereotypes and that overrides everything. Stuff like that. I find it endlessly entertaining. They’ve got a huge back catalog. I’ve been listening to this nonstop on commutes for six months and enjoyed every minute of it.

**John:** Absolutely. While our listeners are adding podcasts to their players, they should also be adding Serious Trouble, the podcast you do with Josh Barro. Is it every week?

**Ken:** It’s 45 weeks a year, roughly.

**John:** That sounds good. I find it just terrific. It’s Ken talking through the cases of the day, which has been phenomenal. I’ve learned so much on your podcast.

**Ken:** Thank you.

**John:** Everyone take a listen to that.

**Ken:** Thank you.

**John:** That is our show for this week. Scriptnotes is produced by Drew Marquardt. It’s edited by Matthew Chilelli. Outro this week is by Lou Stone Borenstein. If you have an outro, you can send us a link to ask@johnaugust.com. That’s also the place where you can send questions. You will find the show notes for this episode and all episodes at johnaugust.com. Also where you’ll find the transcripts and sign up for our weekly newsletter called Inneresting, which has lots of links to things about writing. We have T-shirts and hoodies. They’re great. You’ll find them at Cotton Bureau. You can sign up to become a Premium Member at scriptnotes.net to get all the back-episodes and Bonus Segments, like the one we’re about to record on beach vacations. Ken White, an absolute pleasure having you on the show.

**Ken:** It was a joy to come. Thank you so much.

**Craig:** Thanks, Ken.

[Bonus Segment]

**John:** Craig, so let’s pretend that you’ve finished delivering Season 2 of The Last of Us, and now you can take a vacation. You can go to Mexico and sit on a beach for a week. Is that something you’re aspiring to?

**Craig:** Absolutely not. Let me count the reasons why. First of all, sitting outside under the sun, which some people really seem to like to do, is simply getting radiated. That’s what you’re doing. Everyone’s terrified of radiation. Fukushima happened. People in California were like, “Don’t eat fish anymore. It’s coming.” I’m like, the ocean is swallowing up this amount of radiation. It will never reach you. But you are gonna get radiated when you get in a plane and fly to San Francisco, and you will absolutely get radiated if you sit outside. That’s what sunburning and suntanning is. It’s a response to radiation. A, no.

B, sand. Much like Anakin and whatever, I hate sand. It’s coarse. It gets everywhere. It’s annoying. The ocean is disgusting. It stinks.

**John:** It’s a fish toilet.

**Craig:** It’s a fish toilet. I’ve been scuba diving in the ocean ocean. That’s wonderful. But where the ocean hits the land, gross. Sewage. A lot of just garbage and plants. There’s little tiny crabs that pinch at you. It’s nasty.

D, four, the other people who are at the beach are horrible, because they’re beach people. They’re all like, “I gotta get there and I gotta put my blanket down,” a blanket which turns into a weird loincloth within seconds on the sand, so there’s no reason to be there at all. Everyone smells like that gross suntan lotion, which is just offensive. People are drinking for some reason at the beach, so now they’re being radiated while they’re getting drunk. Beach food is gross. Beach music is awful. That stupid fricking country/Caribbean Bahama Jimmy Buffett nonsense, horrible. Other than that, great day.

**Ken:** John, are you with me that that’s pretty much exactly what you expected if someone asked you what is Craig Mazin gonna say about whether he likes the beach?

**John:** Will Craig have a prepared rant about beach vacations?

**Craig:** Oh, no, it was not prepared.

**John:** But we can predict it.

**Craig:** I assure you that was entirely off the cuff. I just went through my mental library and put myself on the beach and then started to complain.

**John:** Absolutely. Ken White, a beach vacation or let’s say any sort of poolside vacation, so we can get rid of the sand and some of the other objects.

**Craig:** Oh, pools.

**John:** Ken, talk us through that. Appealing or not appealing?

**Ken:** It’s appealing to me, mixed with other things. I like vacations where we’re doing some stuff but there is at least some lounging and drinking and relaxing. My wife increasingly is not happy unless she has climbed at least one mountain a day. This is a point of contention with us.

**Craig:** Huge problem.

**Ken:** It’s true that I’ve gotten to the point where I can’t just lie around for seven days. I go crazy. I like a good vacation with a mix, some of which is drinking things I shouldn’t, eating things I shouldn’t, while lying on a hammock and reading or watching terrible things.

**Craig:** Now, a hammock, that’s not at the beach. I get the idea of being in the shade or being in a hotel room or a spa even. Look, I have a lot of core shame issues, so if I’m not working, I feel like I’ve done something terribly wrong. Also, I think HBO needs me to keep working, so they think I’m doing something terribly wrong. But I get the concept of vacations. Don’t get me wrong. It’s just the beach. You don’t like the beach?

**John:** I don’t like the beach at all. I’m the palest person on earth. All of the objections you’ve raised, I have raised as well. One of my actual biggest phobias is being trapped somewhere like in the beach or in Santa Monica without a hat.

**Craig:** Oh, god. You know and I know and Ken knows, but Drew don’t know. Maybe one day, Drew, if you’re lucky, you’ll know. It’s the worst. My head will start burning. I also get this thing. Do you guys get this when you go to a restaurant and they’re like, “Let’s go outside.”

**John:** The heat lamp.

**Craig:** The heat lamp. No, you’re not, because my head will burn.

**John:** Sizzle.

**Craig:** They don’t get it.

**John:** They don’t get it.

**Craig:** A lovely woman with this beautiful head of hair is like, “What’s the problem?”

**Ken:** I think the hair issues are a whole other episode.

**Craig:** We need to talk about being bald.

**John:** I think we’ve talked about it some.

**Craig:** More.

**John:** More.

**Craig:** More.

**John:** More bald. I’m not good with just the chill-out vacation, where you go to a place and you sit, you don’t do anything. I do need a certain minimum number of activities. That’s why sitting poolside, even if I’m in the shade, I can only read my book for so long. At a certain point, if I’m just reading a book or playing Hearthstone on my iPad, why am I not at home?

**Craig:** Why are you spending all this money? If I could go to a place where there’s a beautiful resort, lovely room – we’re married. We’ve all been married for a long time. Not you, Drew, but one day. Just having sex in a different place is nice, for a change. There are great dinners and things. But then also you could go play D&D or you could go solve puzzles or you could go do the things that other people like to do. I don’t know what those things are. But if I could just do the things I like to do while also on vacation and getting all these lovely services around me, that would be great. But I can’t. Instead, what happens is you go on vacation and you have to walk around, go to a museum, take picture and take picture.

**John:** Gotta prove you were there.

**Craig:** So many goddamn pictures. For what?

**Ken:** Then there’s the whole issue of traveling with kids, which is a very different experience.

**Craig:** Thank god ours are grown.

**Ken:** Kids are assholes. Depending on what age they are, different types of assholes.

**Craig:** I love them, but yes.

**John:** The closest I came to enjoying a chill-out vacation I would say actually was in Hawaii at the Aulani, the Disney resort there, because if you go there with a young kid, you can drop them off at the kid play area and just like, “Bye. I’ll see you in six hours.” That was actually [crosstalk 01:16:39].

**Craig:** Very expensive, very effective babysitter.

**Ken:** See, that is the only thing that would ever get me on a cruise, the concept that you can just leave them with some-

**Craig:** Oh, god.

**Ken:** … group of ne’er-do-wells who like-

**Craig:** I would send them on the cruise. I finally got – and this is a hard thing for Melissa, but she got there with me. We would go on vacation with the kids. Especially if we went somewhere where the time zone shifted dramatically, let’s say it’s Europe, they’re tired, they’re cranky. They don’t want to do the list of – because Melissa’s very much a guidebook, do the list of the things. I’m more like a, let’s just randomly walk around and see what happens. The kids were like, “I don’t want to leave my room,” or, “I just want to be on my computer, my iPad,” whatever. It would drive her nuts. My whole thing was, fine. If you want to stay in your room and do nothing, I would gladly pay for that, for the privilege of being able to walk around with my wife somewhere and not listen to your nonsense. I’d pay double.

Finally, we went on a vacation, the last time we went on a vacation, all four of us, to Europe – it was a couple of Christmases ago – I was just like, “Just leave them in the room.” And it worked great. It was awesome. It was amazing. Leave them in the room. That’s my advice.

**John:** I’ve never taken a cruise, but I’m considering taking, because as we’ve established, I’m bad on boats, and I have the same motion sickness problems you have, so I’m gonna be testing out the motion sickness stuff, because my extended family is talking about doing an Alaska cruise. That’s actually an exceptional make, because it’s difficult to visit some of those places in Alaska by land. On a boat there, that makes sense.

**Craig:** Those boats aren’t gonna rock you too hard, but the patch.

**John:** The patch.

**Craig:** Problem solved. You will not have the sickness problem.

**John:** Ken, a cruise, yes or no? Thumbs up, thumbs down?

**Ken:** There has been talk about doing an Alaska cruise, and seeing something that amazing might get me on the boat. I’m not a fan of legionnaire’s disease, but I might risk it for those purposes. The problem is, again, we’re at the point where my lovely wife, Katrina, is such a hiking badass that probably is gonna be – we’re gonna cruise to this new location, and when I wake up, she says, “Okay, we’re walking 12 miles straight up a peak called Hiker’s Doom.” “Okay. That sounds like fun.” I’d be a little worried about surviving it.

**Craig:** I think you’ll be too busy having diarrhea in a cabin that’s eight feet by four feet.

**John:** Yes, that.

**Craig:** That’s what cruises are to me. I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever go on a cruise. Ever.

**Ken:** Oh, but I have just the one for you, Craig, because there’s this Australian billionaire who just announced that he’s doing a complete replica of the Titanic.

**Craig:** Oh, great.

**Ken:** It’s gonna be an anti-woke Titanic. No vaccinated people.

**Craig:** Wait. Sorry.

**Ken:** No vaccinated people.

**Craig:** Sorry. I love this anti-woke Titanic. First of all, I love the idea that the original Titanic was kind of woke, because it allowed, what, the Irish on board. But I like that you compare the inevitable rotavirus with a total lack of vaccination and proximity to people who would be attracted to something called the anti-woke Titanic, a boat that sank.

**Ken:** I think you have a real shot at getting smallpox to come back with one of those, so I think it’s worth a try.

**Craig:** If anything were to ever get me on Team Iceberg, I think we’ve found it.

**John:** Craig and Ken, thank you so much for a fun episode. I will see you both and D&D tonight.

**Craig:** Thanks, guys.

**Ken:** See you later. Bye.

**John:** Bye.

Links:

* Ken White on [BlueSky](https://bsky.app/profile/kenwhite.bsky.social), [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/people/Popehat/100057614584451/) and [Threads](https://www.threads.net/@kenpopehat)
* [Serious Trouble podcast](https://www.serioustrouble.show/podcast)
* [The Popehat Report](https://www.popehat.com/) by Ken White
* [Hello, My Name Is Stephen Glass, and I’m Sorry](https://newrepublic.com/article/120145/stephen-glass-new-republic-scandal-still-haunts-his-law-career) by Hanna Rosin for The New Republic
* [LibreOffice](https://www.libreoffice.org)
* [Sovereign Citizens Getting Owned](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82JqvIozLk4)
* [The Rest is History podcast](https://therestishistory.supportingcast.fm/)
* [Get a Scriptnotes T-shirt!](https://cottonbureau.com/people/scriptnotes-podcast)
* [Check out the Inneresting Newsletter](https://inneresting.substack.com/)
* [Gift a Scriptnotes Subscription](https://scriptnotes.supportingcast.fm/gifts) or [treat yourself to a premium subscription!](https://scriptnotes.supportingcast.fm/)
* Craig Mazin on [Threads](https://www.threads.net/@clmazin) and [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/clmazin/)
* John August on [Threads](https://www.threads.net/@johnaugust), [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/johnaugust/?hl=en) and [Twitter](https://twitter.com/johnaugust)
* [John on Mastodon](https://mastodon.art/@johnaugust)
* [Outro](http://johnaugust.com/2013/scriptnotes-the-outros) by Lou Stone Borenstein ([send us yours!](http://johnaugust.com/2014/outros-needed))
* Scriptnotes is produced by Drew Marquardt and edited by [Matthew Chilelli](https://twitter.com/machelli).

Email us at ask@johnaugust.com

You can download the episode [here](http://traffic.libsyn.com/scriptnotes/638standard.mp3).

The original post for this episode can be found [here](https://johnaugust.com/2024/whispering-loudly).

**John August:** Hello and welcome. My name is John August, and this is Episode 636 of Scriptnotes, a podcast about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters.

(Whispers:) Today on the show, what’s with all the whispering in movies? Is it a deliberate narrative choice or just a fad? We’ll discuss voice and volume. We’ll also look at what you can learn from reading early drafts, the threat of TikTok and YouTube, and answer some listener questions. Helping us out with all of this is returning guest host Pamela Ribon. Welcome back.

**Pamela Ribon:** Hi.

**John:** Woo!

**Pamela:** Yay! Hi. Thanks. Woo. I don’t normally get a woo on.

**John:** Woohoo.

**Pamela:** Oh, hello.

**John:** Woo woos are very, very nice. We had you on this summer, and you were absolutely a phenomenal guest. But since that time, I got to see your movie Nimona, which was fantastic.

**Pamela:** Aw, thanks. It’s a lot of people’s movies, but yes.

**John:** It’s a lot of people’s movies.

**Pamela:** It’s a lot of people’s movies. But yes, I’m so glad you got to see it. That is a miracle.

**John:** It’s a very long process. I do want to talk some about the history of that and how it moved around and finally got made. But I also want to talk about, you got to go to the Academy Awards with that. I thought for the Bonus Segment we would just talk about going to the Academy Awards and what it’s like to go to the Academy Awards.

**Pamela:** Totally. That’s one of my favorite things to talk about. We’ll do it.

**John:** Not only were you there, you showed up in the background of so many famous people’s shots, which I love.

**Pamela:** Yes, most unexpected.

**John:** Very nice. Before we started with that, Drew, we have some follow-up.

**Drew Marquardt:** We do. Foxy wrote in some follow-up about vetting in last week’s episode. She wrote, “I was so stoked about the discussion of vetting in 635, because it’s something I’ve been wondering ever since Me Too. You guys gave great advice, but I have more questions. With Me Too, most of the behavior being called out was not on set. It was behind closed doors. Most abuse functions that way. The abuser often wants to keep it a secret so they can keep their good reputation intact, hence whisper networks. Now, I’m a woman, but I’ve never been tapped into any whisper network in any area of my life. And I would never want to hire someone who was abusing someone behind closed doors at home. How do you vet for this? Because cutting ties and showing there’s professional, reputational consequences for this behavior is super important, but how do you find out in the first place if they’re keeping it secret?”

**John:** Foxy’s question here reminds me of this thing we really should’ve gotten into in last discussion is that we were talking about vetting as an employer, but you’re also vetting as an employee. You’re wondering, is this person I’m gonna work for, are they a good person or not a good person. That can be just as important.

Pamela, I’m curious whether you have any thoughts about this. How do you check to see whether that person you’re gonna be working with, either you’re gonna hire them or gonna be working for them, how do you start to check about a person?

**Pamela:** Often, it’s not really all that whispered, I find. So there’s that. And then you have to believe women. You have to believe what you hear, even if that’s inconvenient for you and what you’d like to do. You can check with your reps, and you can check with people that you know who’ve worked with these people or for these people before. I find usually people will start with that, because they don’t want you getting into a situation that they could help you avoid.

**John:** I had an incident just this past week where we’re talking about a person, and there was a passing comment about, “Oh yeah, there’s some sort of Me Too thing, but… “ When I heard that “Me Too but,” I’m like, “Oh my, oh my.” That was a signal to me that I do need to investigate this more, and so asking around additional people and getting some confirmation that some folks were uncomfortable with this person. That’s good information to have. It really influences what you’re trying to do.

Either way, if you’re not tapped into any official whisper networks, I think it’s good advice to check to see whether that person is working with the same people again and again, which is generally a good sign that they want people around, unless they’re working with the same people again and again because those people are helping to cover up some behavior. When you do ask about a person, there’s this line where sometimes they’re not willing to report the behavior they saw, but they’re willing to tell you in confidence that this wasn’t great.

**Pamela:** I think of that as the whisper network. I don’t know about a network either, just to help Foxy feel like… You’re in the network if you’re talking to people and they’re talking to you. That’s kind of how it is. If there’s a database, I don’t know about it. But I would also say this is a good time to bring up hiresurvivorshollywood.org.

**John:** Tell me about that. I’ve never heard of this.

**Pamela:** This is an organization that was created by Sarah Ann Masse – I don’t know, it might be Masse – who was one of the Weinstein silence breakers. It is to address the issue of career retaliation against those who have been sexually violated and those who have shared those details publicly.

One of the ways that you can help make sure that you’re not hiring an abuser is to hire a survivor who spoke out, who might be suffering some of the things that happen to you, even though they tell you won’t happen to you and can’t happen to you, and even HR says can’t happen to you if you talk about what has happened. I think it’s important that we are able to say you can come forward and you can talk, and you are not just protected, you are gonna continue to have your career, which is one of the first things they threaten you with.

**John:** It’s important to remember that in Hollywood, where you tend to go from job to job to job, having a break where you’ve not been working is a problem. If you haven’t been working for six months, it’s increasingly harder to get that next job. I could totally see someone who was speaking up and speaking out and didn’t get that next gig or that gig after that. It can be harder to keep momentum in your job, in your career.

**Pamela:** Yeah, you can get labeled as a troublemaker or someone who encourages people to talk and speak out. That’s the opposite of the whisper network, so we don’t have to whisper anymore. I do feel like that’s part of vetting is, if you’re even having to wonder is it worth it for this person, then maybe there’s another person out there who is worth it.

**John:** Let’s go from whisper networks to literal whispering in movies. This is something that came up this past week with people’s observations that in the movie Dune 2, there’s just a lot of whispering, and characters are whispering in situations where you really wonder whether they’d be whispering in real life. Let’s play a little clip here. This is Timothée Chalamet’s character and Zendaya’s character talking. It’s a little, intimate scene. Let’s play a bit of this.

[Dune 2 clip]

**Zendaya:** Your blood comes from dukes and great houses. We don’t have that here. Here, we’re equal, man and woman alike. What we do, we do for the benefit of all.

**Timothée Chalamet:** I’d very much like to be equal to you.

**Zendaya:** Paul Muad’Dib Usul. Maybe you could be Fremen. Maybe I’ll show you the way.

**John:** This is leading up to their first kiss. I actually really like this scene. I love Timothée Chalamet saying, “I’d like to be equal to you.” If you are just listening to this at home and don’t have the visual here, you might think, okay, they’re in bed someplace, there’s people around, they’re whispering for some reason. But no, they are on the top of a sand dune with no one else around at all, and yet they’re whispering.

**Pamela:** (Whispers:) That’s right.

**John:** That’s right.

**Pamela:** Because that’s love, baby.

**John:** That’s love. Let’s talk about that. It is intimate, and so there is an intimacy created by the whispering. This scene didn’t bug me when I watched it in the theater. It’s only when someone pointed out it’s really weird that they’re whispering here that it stands out.

**Pamela:** I just think of Timothée Chalamet as just – he is whisper. If you could make a human out of the word whisper. He’s just whispering in doorways and leaning in and wants to be equal with you. Come on.

**John:** Come.

**Pamela:** Don’t make him volume. I’m leaning all the way in. Same with Zendaya. She’s so much beauty and talent. You’re like, just give it to me on level 2. It’s all I can take.

**John:** Full Zendaya, I couldn’t take it in this moment.

**Pamela:** No, we’d explode.

**John:** We have not read the script for Dune 2, so we don’t know whether in the scene description it’s talking about the fact that they’re whispering. I doubt it is. It was a choice made by the actors and director in staging the scene to do it this way. It’s a very deliberate choice.

But let’s talk about, as screenwriters, situations where we might want to have our characters whispering, when it would make sense, when we would actually put it in a script, and when it would just feel natural along the way. Obviously, the main reason characters whisper is so that other people around them don’t hear it. That feels really natural. When you see that in a movie, you get it. You’re whispering so people can’t hear. Sometimes that’s an aside. Sometimes that is so the guards 10 feet away are not hearing that. Other examples, Pamela, what are you thinking of?

**Pamela:** I don’t even think of this as whispering, what they’re doing, but in a movie this loud, this is considered whisper. That’s part of it too is you want to whisper so that you can have the opposite effect of what the rest of the film is going – or the rest of the scene. I think comedic tension whispers are my favorite whispers, where it’s like, “I can’t even believe,” because then you really get to hiss at each other. Comedic whispering is the best.

**John:** That’s really good. I think about not waking the baby. The parent arguments are happening so that they don’t wake the baby. There’s comedy there too, where you’re shouting and whispering at the same time. That can be a fun moment.

In the scene we just watched, it’s an intimate moment. I don’t know in real life if they really would be whispering, but it does bring us in closer to them. That’s honestly sometimes the job of a whisper is to invite us into that closeup so we’re really close in. Weirdly, because the camera does get close on people’s faces, if people are talking at full voice, it can feel a little strange. It can feel a little shouty.

**Pamela:** I’m thinking about times also in a script you might want someone to whisper to get all of the attention. You’re whispering on purpose. I suppose I’m just now thinking of my dad. It’s very parental. The angrier he got, the quieter he would get, so that you were like, “Oh, boy.”

**John:** Don’t worry about dad when he’s shouting. Worry when he’s whispering. People whisper to themselves, or sometimes they’ll whisper to a character who they know can’t hear them. Some examples. In Rear Window, he sees that the guy’s coming back and he’s whispering, “Get out of there.” He knows he can’t. He’s saying what he wishes he could say to the actual person, and there’s no way to actually say that. You also see that when people are watching something on a screen or a monitor and they’re trying to say, “Aha,” and there’s no way to communicate it. Weirdly, whispering is a thing people do in those situations.

**Pamela:** Yeah, but that’s to let us, the audience, know that he knows he can’t talk to them.

**John:** Yeah. It’s a question of would you do that in real life, or is that just a movie convention, that you’re vocalizing what you know you can’t say to the real person. Weakness, so a person who’s on their deathbed, we’re used to the whispering there. Confessions.

**Pamela:** I’m sorry, I’m still laughing that you have weakness equated with deathbed confessions. I was thinking weakness like, “It’s too heavy. I think we need to take some of the weight… ” But you were like, “It’s buried under the backyard flower bed.” You’re like, what a weak man.

**John:** What a weak man. I mean to separate weakness and confessions. Weakness, a person who’s physically frail, it makes sense that they can’t put their full voice behind things. Confessions I will say is a separate thing, like, “I see dead people.” You’re letting somebody in on a secret. Sometimes you whisper secrets, even if there’s no real reason to whisper.

**Pamela:** Particularly creepy secrets.

**John:** Whispering is creepy at times.

**Pamela:** (Whispers:) “I’m here for you.” That kind of stuff.

**John:** We were looking through some examples of famous whispers. Of course, “Rosebud.” “The horror.” Scar leans in to say, “I killed Mufasa.” And then, of course, “My precious.” That’s of course a character who is basically entirely whispers. His actual voice quality is what we would consider a whisper.

**Pamela:** I wrote one in Nimona, which is, “He’s perfect.” After all these reasons that this man’s a terrible villain, number one, everybody’s after him, and nobody will ever love him again, she’s looking at all of this news info, and she says, “He’s perfect.” I went to look at the script to see what did I say, and I had just put it in italics. Then I was like, oh, I don’t even remember how it’s done in the end. This is pretty amazing that you can just open it up in Netflix and I just hit a button and it went right to the line. I was like, no, that’s fresh in there. But she kind of growls it. Chloe kind of growls, like, “He’s perfect.”

**John:** The whisper growl is a thing too. Bane’s voice in Batman, or really Batman’s voice in Christopher Nolan’s Batman is a whisper growl. It’s like speaking softly but with a weird masculine intensity.

**Pamela:** The 30 Rock quote is the “talking like this” contest.

**John:** It’s good stuff. In the case of Nimona, you probably put that line in italics, and italics makes sense for that. It stands out. Other choice would be to put the parenthetical above that to indicate that this you say whispering, that it’s not at full voice. There’s a thing there.

But in the case, again, where characters are whispering lines that they wouldn’t necessarily need to whisper, that can be an on-the-set choice. That can be a choice the actors are making, the director’s making. And as long as everyone’s on the same page, it can work.

Kind of related is the issue of – on the podcast a lot recently we’ve been talking about word choices. And the last week we were talking about characters whose native language is not English and how you mark that in scripts and how you make choices that indicate that English is not their native language as you’re writing those characters.

Fundie baby voice came up. Our friend Chris pointed this out. It was something I’d not been aware of until you see the examples, like, “Oh, I totally get this.” This is an example of – it’s called fundie baby voice.

[Clip]

**Kelly Johnson:** I used to be a schoolteacher. I loved that, but I just felt burdened for so many people and I felt the calling to go back to school to become a Christian counselor.

**John:** This is Mike Johnson’s wife. It’s a voice. It’s a choice. It’s a very specific way of speaking. If you had a character who was speaking this way, you would need to indicate that in the script, because it really fundamentally changes our instinct about how those lines sound in our delivery. Have you experienced this in your real life or in scripts yet?

**Pamela:** I was just thinking this is such a church voice. You were like, “It’s learned. It’s a choice.” I think it might be ingrained. You may learn this growing up, of keep sweet and obey. This is the voice that you’re supposed to use to be, as you’ve got written here, childlike, sweet, submissive, and honey. But this voice to me is – I understand it’s fundamentalist, but it doesn’t take much to turn it into you’re in the South with the same voice.

**John:** As a counterexample, you look at Elizabeth Holmes from Theranos and the way she was deliberately pitching her voice lower, pulling down to a different register to give her authority that she felt like she couldn’t have in her normal voice. I just wonder if it’s just how we fundamentally police women’s voices the way we also police bodies. There’s no right way for a woman to speak.

**Pamela:** That’s true. I have done the Theranos, as we call this act, in rooms when I recognize that the sound of my regular voice giving ideas isn’t reaching ears anymore and it’s getting tuned out. Then I just start saying it like this. It definitely works. Definitely works.

**John:** Are people aware that you’re doing it?

**Pamela:** Only, yes, because I tell them. That’s who I am. I’m like, “Do you like it better when I say it like this?” They’ll be like, “I do.” I’m like, “I know you do. We’re gonna look into this.” This voice very much works. She’s not the only one who knows. It doesn’t take much. You just say it like this. When I look at videos of me in high school, as I did a bunch for My Year of Dicks, my voice is lower back then.

**John:** Wow.

**Pamela:** Because I think I was hanging around boys all the time, and that was just where my voice hung out. It’s very Janeane Garofalo probably. It was the style at the time.

**John:** Let’s talk about that, because obviously, whether it’s Christian fundie voice or the Theranos voice you’re doing, you’re pulling your voice examples based on the community around you and what seems to be working and how you fit in with the community around you. Mike Johnson’s wife, she’s probably doing that voice because that is the community that she’s in, and that feels like the right choice. And if she were to make a different choice, there would be consequences for her doing that within her community. That’s the choice that she’s making.

You were referencing My Year of Dicks, which is of course the incredible, originally a series and then done as a film you did and got the Oscar nomination for. As you’re watching those videos, do you remember deliberately choosing to lower your voice, or that was just at thing that happened?

**Pamela:** I don’t know that I definitely chose to lower my voice. I think I probably always – I still have a bit of a lower voice, and it’s only getting more so. I definitely know that there was an affect of – I think maybe it just happens in your teens, when you get your first official hormonal whatevers, and you just lean back in that sound of detachment that stayed that way.

I don’t know that I would ever write in a script how someone should do their voice, because isn’t that what the actor is bringing to the table? Unless it was she was masking her voice for some reason and doing an impression or something like that. I don’t know that I would say, “She’s got fundie voice,” even if I were writing a character who was a fundamentalist.

**John:** It’s interesting, because I feel like sometimes I need to be able to hear that character’s voice in my head. If I’m hearing it in a way that is not going to actually translate on the page without me calling it out, that feels important. Obviously, if some other character’s referencing it, you’re gonna need to put it there.

I don’t know, there’s a musicality to how these people are doing it that is different. Elizabeth Holmes, not only is she pushing it lower, she’s also going more monotone. The same words are gonna come across very differently, given that. You’re gonna make some different little word choices to fit that pattern and how it’s gonna fit.

**Pamela:** Word choices is true. I think I would maybe blend some words and italicize some words to get that musicality of the reader can hear what it says. But I don’t know that I would even talk about their pitch or something like that. But you’re right. If someone else is, “She’s definitely a lower talker, isn’t she?” there you go. You got it.

**John:** You’re going back to the Seinfeld reference. You say you pitched your voice lower. I’m sure there was some moment in which I internally recognized I had gay voice and changed, and so that I pitched lower, I made choices to sound less gay. But I don’t remember when that was, and I don’t have good examples of me on tape showing when my voice shifted. I’d love to see some forensics on that, but I just don’t think that material exists, to figure out was it in 5th grade or 7th grade that I did make that shift, because my register is much lower than it probably should be for my overall size and shape. At some point, that was just where I landed.

**Pamela:** It was a bunch of tiny recalculations probably, more than like, “Oh, the summer I turned this voice.”

**John:** This conversation is reminding me of a movie that I really, really loved, Lake Bell’s In a World. I want her to make many more movies. I really like this, but I was a little troubled by one thread of this. If you haven’t seen the movie, it’s about a woman who wants to be the narrator announcer for film, so like, “In a world where,” blah blah blah blah, and how that business is so male-dominated. But it’s her conversations with other women that become a bit of an issue and come through at the end. So let’s take a listen to one clip here.

[In a World clip]

**Woman:** Hey! Watch it! That is so rude.

**Lake Bell (as Carol Solomon):** Oh my god. Okay. Excuse me. I’m so sorry. I just want to give you my card. I’m not a vocal coach anymore, but I would make an exception for you, because you sound like a squeaky toy. And I don’t mean that in a bad way. But I mean, like, I think you’re better than that. You know what I mean? And I think we’re all better than that. It’s good for the species. You know what I mean? But there’s also a Jamba Juice like two blocks away from here if you wanted to, because I bet you were looking for a smoothie. Maybe not. I don’t know. But if you were, you know where it is.

Over the next six weeks, Louis will be recording your voices, and we will listen to your sounds evolve right before your very ears, because women should sound like women, not baby dolls who end everything in a question. Let’s make a statement.

**Pamela:** Speaking of policing women’s voices, she just stopped her outside.

**John:** Yeah. Again, I really like the movie. This was just a thing that I think does not read so well to me now, 10 years or whatever years later. It does feel very police-y, like, people aren’t gonna take you seriously or maybe shouldn’t take you seriously because of your vocal choices.

**Pamela:** That being said, I was a logger for The Bachelor and The Bachelorette, so I listened to uncut footage 12 hours at a time in a graveyard shift. I don’t recommend it. I type what I hear, so that you’re logging for story editors for the writers to make this show. There was a season where there was a girl, I just prayed every week she was about to get voted off. She really was up in here, sitting in a hot tub, and she had a high wiggle in her voice. It’s not her fault, but it was a lot, and it was in my ears. I had to type everything she said, which was mostly, “That’s amazing. Oh, yeah, I love that.” I’m not policing her. I could not leave her. It was my job to listen to her until she was voted off.

**John:** I am curious whether the job that you were doing exists in the same way today, because that feels like an absolutely perfect use of AI to log that.

**Pamela:** John, that was a paid gig.

**John:** That was a paid gig.

**Pamela:** That’s how I kept on living.

**John:** I’m not saying it should go away. I’m just saying that feels like very low-hanging fruit.

**Pamela:** Stop it!

**John:** I’m sorry. I’m not advocating for those jobs to be replaced. I think it’s fantastic that you got paid. I want people to get paid.

**Pamela:** I was helping writers who also weren’t getting called writers. Where’s our union? Logging is a job that is not for the weak, but it’s definitely for people who need to be underpaid to survive living in LA for the first few years. It’s definitely probably an AI job now, except they don’t know what they’re doing when they’re not talking, and I watched a lot of non-talking footage. Then I would just make up what she was thinking, which is why I was not cut out for that job.

**John:** I would say AIs right now are pretty good at being able to describe what is literally happening on screen. Is it gonna be useful for the editor who’s assembling stuff? Maybe not. And so you may still need actual human beings there to do that.

But anyway, back to our discussion of whispering and voices and the choices people are making. I think we have ways of indicating on a script what volumes should be. We put things in uppercase when people are shouting. We will put parentheticals in there to give a sense of what that is.

When someone has an overall vocal quality, I think you’re right, sometimes you do want to call it out if it’s going to be something that other characters are going to remark upon. But you don’t want to box in your actor unnecessarily. You still need to let them make their own choices.

**Pamela:** I wonder if that In a World girl’s character is just Baby Voice Girl. Maybe she’s in it later, she had a character name. But that’s usually how it’s done, isn’t it, so that you don’t even get a choice? The character is called Annoying Voice Girl.

**John:** I would like to talk now about Nimona, because as I watched this, I kept hearing your voice all over it. My guess was that you recorded scratch for her for a lot of it. Is that true.

**Pamela:** Oh, that’s funny. No.

**John:** Really?

**Pamela:** Because we already had Chloe hired. I’m trying to remember if we did scratch, gosh, because we did it during lockdown. I’m trying to remember how that all worked. But I don’t remember. I don’t remember. Some of these things we just block out. I was making My Year of Dicks and Nimona at the same time, in this office, in this room, during lockdown, while I was also slightly teaching 1st and 2nd grade, so forgive me if I don’t remember. But we definitely read it out loud and read it in the room and did all of that stuff. So that is probably what you’re hearing too is, yes, acting it out.

**John:** She has an incredibly expressive voice. I would say next to Sarah Silverman’s character in the Wreck-It movies, it’s probably one of the biggest little girl voices I’ve seen, because she’s not always a little girl, of course. But she’s really super, super expressive. Was it fun to write that character?

**Pamela:** It was fun. Also, I was brought in at a time when it was like, we need to really dig into Nimona and get her voice out. This IP has been around, and Nate is a part of it too, so this is a voice that was already on the page and in the creator. But being able to play around in that back and forth and, “I’m not a little girl, I’m Nimona,” was just a fun place. Then also, Riz was already cast too, so you knew the dynamic you could play there.

**John:** Talk to us about when you came on board and what the brief was, what had changed. I should say this is available for anybody who wants to watch it on Netflix. You should absolutely see it. It was one of the five Oscar-nominated animated films this year, so congratulations on it. At what point were you coming on? There was obviously a graphic novel. It sounds like there was already a script, but you were still digging in on how to service the best out of her?

**Pamela:** It had been around for quite a bit before I came on board, because Patrick Osborne was working on it at Fox Animation. I know I was still working on Ralph Breaks the Internet. But a part of me feels like I might’ve still been on Moana when it started. I’m not sure. It was a long time coming. They had talked about me coming on earlier. Blue Sky is based in Connecticut. And I didn’t think that I could go move out there and work on the movie. That was why I had passed at that point. And then March came around. They were like, what if we just come to your house every day?

At that point, Nick and Troy were involved as the directors, and I met with them and we all hit it off. They had had this rewrite that had gone well in the boards that they had had, and it was starting to work. I came in at a time where they had tried so many things. That was the hard part coming into the story team so late. Even this beginning of, to talk about, “He’s perfect,” she wasn’t doing the opening narration. That was one of the first things I was pitching, because you don’t meet her for a while.

**John:** She’s the title character. It seems like she has sidekick energy, and yet she ends up becoming the central character in ways that are really unusual and feel like it’s almost a commentary on how we treat secondary characters in animated films.

**Pamela:** Even the draft I had read before these reels where I came in, it had changed a bunch. They had really tried to figure this one out in many, many ways. Even saying like, “What if you hear her before you meet… ” They’re like, “We tried it.” We had to get through a lot of “we tried its”. You have to be really careful and confident when you’re coming in in that way of like, “But with all due respect, we haven’t tried it, the we that includes me now. Let me see if I can show you a little what I mean.” And even then, that takes time. That’s a real double Dutch of, “I’ll leave that whole area alone. I know my instincts, but we’re not there yet to talk about it.”

But anyway, the studio was shut down while we were still working on it. But as we kept working together, it was getting stronger. Trying to figure out, I would say the story structure stayed the same, but we were moving around the parts of when do we know what we know and why and how, and that stuff got shifted around quite a bit.

But being able to gleefully play with Nimona, luckily, that was always encouraged. Everybody on this movie was so funny. Once she was really sparkling, there were a lot of like, “Oh, I bet she’d say this. I bet she’d say this.” But people got protective of Nimona, as they should.

I had said something about her speaking in a different language at some point. They were like, “No, she doesn’t know other languages. She’s never really been anywhere else.” You got this with Ralph Breaks the Internet too, where they were like, “He can’t wear glasses. His eyes won’t deteriorate. He’s a digital figure.” I was like, “He’s eating a churro. I don’t know what to say. I’m confused.”

**John:** The rules of your world are complicated. She seems to know animals that she probably has not seen. Has she seen a rhino in real life? Yes.

**Pamela:** You’ve worked so hard to understand this world that doesn’t exist, that when someone else comes in and points, just says something like, “Never,” you have to be like, “All right.” I will be like this too one day. I know it, where I will be like, “No, you can’t turn off surge protect,” just weird things that you get so mad about, where you’re like, “That’s fundamentally against the core of who she is.” That’s where you get, and that’s when you know you’re really in it.

**John:** Hearing about the development process, it also strikes me that it helps answer a question I had, which is that the film uses its time in unusual ways, and things that in other films would be like, “We need to figure out a way to do this. The next sequence will be about doing that,” instead the next scene really does that thing. Like, “We have to clear my name,” and then literally, in the next scene, we clear his name. I liked it, but it seems to jump past a lot of the normal sequence of describe the obstacle, attempt to overcome the obstacle, overcome the obstacle. It uses its time in an unusual way.

**Pamela:** I don’t know how to speak to that, because part of me feels like that’s family animation a lot of times, so that we’re letting everyone in the whole wide world, which is the demographic, know what’s going on. There is a lot of “how did we get here’s” and then “what are we gonna dos.”

**John:** Oh yeah, but I was saying I think that is a hallmark of family animation is that you are talking about the thing you need to do and then how you’re gonna do it, and then you do the thing. What’s unusual in Nimona is they describe, oh, we need to do a thing, and suddenly they just do the thing. Where I’d expected, like, okay, this’ll be in the next 10 minutes, it’s like, no, that was taken care of in the next minute, which was unusual. I think that may be a consequence of discovering some parts of the story as you’re going through it.

**Pamela:** Also, I think because they were new to each other, they were doing a lot of emotional processing while talking about how did that just happen. Instead of needing to do it, they really did work it through each other.

**John:** That’s fun. Everyone check that out. The next topic I’d like to dig into is about early drafts. It occurs to me because when you read the scripts for the Oscar-nominated films, it’s like, “Oh, that’s perfect.” Of course, it’s always that way. But of course, we’re reading the very final draft. In some cases, we’re reading stuff that really reflects the final edit rather than the actual script they went into production with. I find it to be so educational to look at early drafts.

One of the things that I was able to do when I was at USC is – they had this big script library. They would have the final shooting script, but they would also have earlier drafts. It was so cool to see the stuff that had changed from the original idea to the final film. I remember reading the Point Break script and loving it, the James Cameron rewrite of it. It’s just great. But it’s different. It’s not the final film. You see what that looked like on the page, and ideas that were important at one point that then got dropped are great.

Also, during WGA arbitrations, a lot of times I’m reading seven scripts back, and you see what the initial instinct was versus what the final film was. You see how much stuff changes over the course of it. I think it’s really a good process for any screenwriter to see how much things really do change along the way.

**Pamela:** They solidify in your brain so differently too when you look back, because I did that a little, looking back here for you, for prepping, and I was blown away by what I didn’t remember. That’s just a good reminder to yourself of you have told yourself a story that you have believed. Thank you for your service on arbitration, honestly. What a job. What a hard thing to do, John, to go and read all those drafts and make these decisions.

**John:** I enjoy it, and so I will say yes most of the times when they call me about doing one of them, just because it’s important. You want to give people the credit that they deserve for the hard work they did.

One of the things you have in the notes here is about Natural Born Killers. Had you read a script for that early on? Had you read it before you saw the movie?

**Pamela:** No, not before I saw the film. That USC film script library sounds cool, but I was in a software company in Austin, Texas with the internet. The version that we had of that was trying to find people illegally uploading websites full of scripts. The early Natural Born Killers script was one I remember finding and being like, “Look at this. It’s so different than this film that I saw a billion times.” It’s very Tarantino-y. When you go in there, you’re like, it’s very Tarantino-y. They still have up the 1990 Tarantino script, which you can compare to the 1993 Oliver Stone and other writers’ draft.

But what’s also interesting is that then when you dive even further into people talking about it, because I only know internet rabbit holes about this script, but it came out of True Romance, which was also a rewrite of a script. In True Romance, Natural Born Killers is the screenplay that Clarence is writing while they’re on a road trip. That’s interesting. It’s the Facts of Life of – the spin-off series of the Tarantino universe.

**John:** I read Natural Born Killers from the USC script library. I remember reading it. This would’ve been 1992. It was the first script where I read the whole thing and then just went back and just started reading again from page 1. I was just blown away by it and how it upended the conventions of what I expected a movie to do, the fact that it moved into sitcoms and other things. We’ll put a link in the show notes to the script so you can see what it was. It was just amazing and blew my mind, like, “Oh, this is a thing I could do on the page.” It was incredible. Then I ended up working for the producers of Natural Born Killers. I was their assistant and ended up writing the novelization of Natural Born Killers. I had a full experience there.

**Pamela:** That’s cool. Did you go all the way back to this first one?

**John:** I tried to pull things that I thought were really interesting about the first one into the novelization. The novelization really does not resemble the final movie very much at all. Oprah gets killed in the novelization. A lot of very different stuff happens in it. No one should read the novelization. Just don’t. But I was happy with the draft I wrote. I was not happy with the draft that got published.

But weirdly, the novelization of Natural Born Killers became my comedy sample that helped me get my very first job writing a screenplay, which was How to Eat Fried Worms, because naturally, the person who wrote Natural Born Killers novelization should write a charming children’s film about a kid who eats worms.

**Pamela:** Take it from the writer of My Year of Dicks, you can also write Moana. What’s interesting about that first script is I remember it was smaller and I feel like it was mostly the trial of Mickey and Mallory Knox. That’s so different than what you get in Natural Born Killers and such an Oliver Stone kind of film. I think that that original indie film that Tarantino had made also, in that Reservoir Dogs world, would’ve thrived.

**John:** 100 percent. It would’ve totally blown up. It was really just terrific. The Oliver Stone movie I like. It’s just I really miss the movie that I couldn’t see, which was the 1990 script, because that would’ve been special in its own way. But you mentioned Moana earlier, and this was actually probably what got me thinking about seeing earlier drafts, because on an audio podcast, it’s hard for us to compare pages from two different versions of Natural Born Killers. But what we can do is listen to two different songs and compare them. I had not realized until this recent car trip where we started playing “I want” songs from movies, is that How Far I’ll Go, which I think is a fantastic “I want” song from Moana, was the second version of the “I want” song, and the original one was More. Let’s play a sample from More.

[More (Outtake) from Moana]

**John:** If I had not told you that this was from Moana, you probably would’ve figured it out. She’s talking about being on an island. She’s talking about wanting to get beyond this island. It is the same general broad strokes idea, but it’s not the same. It doesn’t really serve the same function as the finished song does.

**Pamela:** Yeah. Boy, that song takes me back. It’s like you just threw me in a time machine. Woo!

**John:** You were working on this movie back when this was the “I want” song?

**Pamela:** Yeah. I was like, “How did this all happen?” because before there was this song, I would write in the script fake lyrics or poems or ideas of where this song might be, before we had Lin and the music team involved. More came right towards the end of my time on Moana. I did get to work with Lin a little bit about what this song could be. We had gone back and forth in emails and in person, and more came out of that.

**John:** I don’t think we’ve ever talked about this. Did I ever come into the room with you when you were working on Moana? Because I came into a room for an afternoon on Moana, but you may not have been on the project at that point.

**Pamela:** I think you might’ve walked in as my door closed. It was a real all-hands moment. When you change the writer, it is easier than anything, but we are on contracts. I think I did not meet with you. I did sit with Michael Arndt. If you were around any time around Michael, that was around that time.

**John:** I literally came in one afternoon. My pencil never touched anything. I saw a bunch of artwork on the walls. They didn’t show me any clips. They just showed me all the art on the walls and talked me through the story. I’m like, “Oh boy. Oh boy. This isn’t gonna work.” I was wrong. It worked really, really well. It was only a year out from the movie. I’m like, “I don’t know what you guys are doing here.” They pulled it out. But in the process of figuring this stuff out, let’s compare. We just listened to More. Let’s listen to the “I want” song that’s actually in the movie. This is How Far I’ll Go.

[How Far I’ll Go from Moana]

**John:** What we’ve done here is we’ve flipped the ideas around. In More, she’s complaining about how stuck she feels on this island, and wouldn’t it be great to be out there. In this version she’s saying, “My island is fantastic. I love everybody here, but I’m still pulled to go and leave.” There’s a tension there that’s very different. The brief of what we’re supposed to understand about her is so different.

**Pamela:** Gosh. Moana’s journey changed quite a bit also. At one point, her family was lost at sea, so she was gonna have to go and get them. The want had to change each time. You had at the base of a problem with Moana is her island is wonderful and her life is great. That wasn’t something that was really supposed to change. We had gone to these islands and interviewed young women of Moana’s age. They often said that they wanted to be pilots or missionaries or people who would leave their island but then have to come home, need to come home and want to come home. You couldn’t have a want that was… Also, I’ll just say the problem with wanting more is you get that at the end of Act 1, and then you did it. Here we are. Here is more. It’s interesting in How Far I’ll Go, you hear that, “Every trail I track.” There’s parts of More that do end up in How Far I’ll Go.

**John:** Let’s listen to that. Here’s a little clip of that.

[How Far I’ll Go from Moana]

**John:** That musical idea made it back through into the final song.

**Pamela:** I remember in the boards, it was like, “That part works. There she is. That’s the thing. That’s the feeling and the movement.” I’m not surprised that that got stuck and stayed throughout the next version.

**John:** Comparing these two things, it’s just a good reminder that, be it in our scripts or, in this case, the songs, you recognize that you went in with a specific idea, like, “This is how we get from this place to this place. This is who the character is.” Sometimes it’s only when you go to get through the draft, you realize that was not actually the story or that’s not actually the motivation, that’s not the best way to do this. You discover something by playing through it. All the outlines you want to make, all the thinking you can do is not as helpful as actually trying and seeing what works. That’s one of the huge advantages of animation is that you actually get to see does this work. You have these intermediate steps where you get to see a thing.

Broadway musicals are the same thing, where you have readings, you have workshops, you stage it, you’re changing it every night, and you get to see what actually works. Our live action features on television, we don’t get those opportunities. We go in, we shoot a thing once, we spend a long time in the editing room trying to make it work, but there’s no chance to make big changes to things.

**Pamela:** You’re also working on two different versions of the story at the same time, because you’d have a scene that then would just get lifted and be like, “Actually, I can turn that into a song and save you five minutes of screen time with a three-minute song.” As a writer, you’re like, “These are all just workable ideas. These are just thoughts.” The script is thoughts a lot of times, because you’re not recording what they’re gonna say for a very long time. That won’t be the same either, because as soon as you’re in front of them and they’re trying every line a few different ways and then you’re improvising – and it is a ball you’re playing with a lot of times, but it’s your ball, so it’s very hard.

**John:** That’s my ball.

**Pamela:** It’s like, “That’s my ball.” But it’s not, because you hit it over the net quite a few times. There’s a bunch of teams. I’ll keep metaphoring. I don’t care.

**John:** 100 percent. Weirdly, a lot of the animation I’ve done has been stop-motion animation, which is kind of the exception, where we get to shoot a thing once. You pre-record; you shoot a thing once. You can’t change a lot. It’s more like live action. I’ve found it frustrating to try to do traditional animation, because I would deliver a script, like, “Here’s a script. Go for it,” and then I will get these boards back, and it’s like, “Wait, what are you doing? That’s not the script at all. You’ve just chosen a completely different thing to animate that’s not actually useful for my script.” That’s John August struggling with how traditional animation is done.

**Pamela:** It’s not for the weak.

**John:** It’s not for the weak. I compared animation to Broadway musicals. I’m thinking back to when we were doing the Big Fish musical. We did our out-of-town tryout in Chicago. We had a really rough time, because we were trying to make big changes, but every night we had to put on a show that people could actually watch and make sense. We would introduce stuff in blocks and pieces so it could all still fit together every night, but we still were changing a lot. We were adding new songs. We were moving stuff. We were cutting stuff.

One of the things we realized is that we did not have a an “I want” song for Will that worked. The challenge I put for Andrew Lippa was like, “You need to write an ‘I want’ song for Will. Let’s talk about what’s in there. Let’s talk about what ideas there are.” I remember being in the basement of the Oriental Theater, and he played me the song which became Stranger, which was the big “I want” song for Will. It was perfect. It was wonderful. We couldn’t do anything with it. There was no way to stick it to the show. We couldn’t tell the company that this new song existed until we closed in Chicago, went back to New York, were in the workshop again, and we could introduce this new song, which transformed big parts of the show. I just remember tears out there, like, “Oh my god, we did it. We actually made the thing happen.” But there was no way to actually make that fix live until we can get back into a safe place to insert it. It was such a different experience than anything I would’ve had doing features.

**Pamela:** Even in Moana, I think it was weird to put that want song, because it can come too late, and now she’s complaining, or it’s too early, and you are like, “Why? What is she even talking about? I don’t agree.” You have to agree with their want. It has to be like, “Me too. That’s exactly what I want for you.” I had pulled up all the stuff around the time that More was written to remember the brain that we were in. We were very much like, “Okay. Look. We know there’s nine things the song has to do.” Poor Lin. There are nine things the song has to do.

At one point there’s this document that was sent to him that was like, “Here’s just possible titles. This is my favorite.” I was like, “This is amusing, as a writer.” I think it’s alchemy, people who are able to write songs if they hear music or even how they – I felt so embarrassed every time I knew someone was reading one of these fake song poems I was trying to do, like I’m in a coffee shop, on a stage.

We sent the following: “Here’s just some possible titles.” Why? But anyway. “Set Sail. I’ll Find My Way. I Know My Way. I Learn Too Well. Why Not Now? If Not Now, When? To Sail is Life. I Want to Sail. The Next Step. The Biggest Step. I Hear You. My Life’s at Sea. My Dream is to Sail. The Far Horizon. Beyond the Reef. The Endless Beyond. Beyond the Edge of Nowhere. There’s Somewhere There Past Nowhere. I Am Moana: Daughter of the Sea. My Life, My Ocean. A Different Voice. A Different Song. A Different Rhythm.” Just take that, Lin.

**John:** Some of those are terrible, but some of those actually totally make sense. You can completely imagine some of those things being that “I want” song. I saw this in France. When I saw it, it was Vaiana. She wasn’t Moana.

**Pamela:** You know why, yes?

**John:** I know why, because Moana was a porn star in Italy, I think, and then also a trademark in other places. In Europe, it’s just Vaiana. It always was Vaiana. My question is, I don’t remember, is this the second song? Because classically, the “I want” song in a musical is the second song. There’s a “welcome to the world” song that sets up the whole universe, and then this is the second song. Is it the second song in Moana?

**Pamela:** I don’t think it is, because you’ve got We Know the Way and Where You Are. Let’s see. Track listing, it’s number four, but that’s I think because of the opening sound.

**John:** That’s score stuff.

**Pamela:** Yeah, score stuff. It might be How Far I’ll Go is after Where You Are. That’s the thing. Where You Are, this is the “perfect world” song. That’s it. We Know the Way used to always open. It was the first song they wrote as a team. It was so great. We were like, “This is it.” It was considered, “This is how the movie has to open,” which then your third song would be a want song, which feels a little late.

**John:** It does feel a little bit late.

**Pamela:** She also used to sing a song before that of who Maui was. There was a whole Maui song too.

**John:** No, that’s not gonna work.

**Pamela:** It was a lot. It was a lot.

**John:** I could’ve come into the room and said, “It’s not gonna work.”

**Pamela:** It was an Act 1 break. She was singing like, “I’ve gotta go. I’ve gotta find my way. I hope my dad doesn’t mind. I hope he’s not mad at me. I’ve gotta get this right. I think this is who I am, and I won’t know if I don’t go see it.” It was that want song. It was a little like, “I want to know if this feeling inside me is okay to have.”

**John:** Which is a good thought. That actually holds through into How Far I’ll Go, which is like, “I feel this tension, because I love everything here and yet I am completely drawn out there. I want to be a good daughter, and yet I feel like I can’t be.” Those are real things.

Let’s talk for a moment about the article by Mark Harris called How Bad Could It Get for Hollywood, really looking at the futures of YouTube and TikTok, coming down to the idea that young Americans aren’t thinking about movies and television in the same way, and so the industry that we’ve built to entertain people is in danger of being supplanted by a video that they’re watching that is not created by studios and, of course, union writers. What did you take from this?

**Pamela:** I feel like, oh, here’s this article again. I don’t know. Is that okay to say?

**John:** I would generally agree with you. You’re safe to predict doom and gloom every year.

**Pamela:** It’s TV and film. There’s another one going on, video games. It’s all the doom and gloom of all the things. It’s all supposed to be really bad. I feel like I’m always in whatever is the version – wherever they’re complaining that it’s over and it’s dead is where I’m employed. That seems to be-

**John:** Always good.

**Pamela:** Then they’re like, “You’re not getting employed. Over here, this is where the people are really employed.” I don’t really read these, because I don’t take them into… My husband is someone who will be like, “Your job’s [unintelligible 00:52:36].” Even this article that you’ve linked I kind of read with one eye squinting, because I don’t want it to get in my heart or my head.

**John:** There’s always an existential threat, which is basically that people are gonna stop watching the stuff that we’re making, and because people have a certain number of hours in the day, they’re gonna spend those hours doing things that are not movies or television.

The prediction that the actual movies will fail and that no one will go to the movie theaters anymore – is attendance down? Sure. But there’s still something kind of great about being in a public space with people all watching the same things. Even my teenage daughter does like doing that at times. She loves TikTok. She loves YouTube. But there’s something great about the event of everyone staring at the same screen, watching a thing.

There’s something appealing about television events that get everyone watching the same thing and talking about the same thing. There’s reasons why that works and will probably continue to work. And yet I think we do need to be mindful that there’s new threats pulling at people’s attention. And that attention could make it harder for some of the economics of our business to work.

**Pamela:** Yeah. You’ve really said it. We can all like a TikTok, but we can’t all go watch a TikTok and talk about it together and go on a date to TikTok. There’s still communal events. They’re still bringing us together. And if they’re the kinds of things that people are talking about, you’ve gotta go do the thing, to see the thing to be able to talk about it too.

That being said, I was at a friend’s house recently where they just had on the television two things from YouTube. One was a screensaver that they just had on. Every once in a while the neon sign in the image would blink, and they’d all be like, “Yay.” They’d also watch marble runs where it’s elaborate. I just said, “Why do we work so hard?” Someone in that house was also in the industry. No, they both are. I was like, “Why do we work so hard? You guys just sit here and watch marble runs.” They were like, “Look at it go. Yay.”

**John:** That’s so nice.

**Pamela:** Yay. There’s that element to what we make too, of can you shut off your head and have fun. I think that’s what the Eras Tour is proving, like, “Oh my gosh. We just want Barbie. Let’s go have fun.” They certainly tried to make Oppenheimer seem like a rollicking good time. “Let’s go out and have fun.” And it worked, because people were ready to do that.

**John:** We have some listener questions here that are perfect for Pamela Ribon, our guest today. Drew, start us off.

**Drew:** Lark in Virginia writes, “Recently I’ve been doing some rewrites for a series pilot, and as I’ve been going back, I’ve been considering how this show may be if it was animation instead of live action. Just how different is writing animation compared to live action? Do you still follow the formula in terms of writing on the page? How have things changed with writing for animation now in the after-days of the strike? I feel like there are more eyes on both the WGA in both a good way and a bad way and more awareness towards TAG in general.”

**John:** We’ve talked a lot about, for writing animation, even in this episode, if you actually look at a script for an animated series and a live action series, they’re not different. Animated half-hours, like a Simpsons, is double spaced in ways, but otherwise it’s the same kind of formatting all throughout.

**Pamela:** I didn’t even think that this was a format question, because the formulas – you’re writing scripts for telling stories. They’re the same. Your budget is different, maybe. Maybe. They’re pretty expensive too. The character talking might be a cat, so that’s different. But no, you don’t write it differently. You ask yourself, does it need to be animated? That’s what’s different mostly.

**John:** There’s an animated series that I may be doing here soon. You’re figuring out how you’re going to do it, because when you say animation, there’s 15 different things and ways you could be doing an animated series. They have different costs and different requirements. But the actual script, the stuff that you’re writing, that’s not gonna change that much. That feels the same between live action and animation.

Rarely do you see a script that was written for live action that you can just immediately take and then just turn into animation. You’re gonna make some different choices just based on how audiences see things, how stuff fits together, how transitions work. You tend to write knowing something’s gonna be animated or non-animated. If you’re a person who can write live action, you’re a person who can write animation, and vice versa.

The differences and challenges is that writing something how you guys were writing Moana was a much more iterative process than what a writer would normally encounter. That’s something you have to deal with, and being good with – you said like, here’s a bundle of ideas that you know are gonna change. That’s a very different experience.

**Pamela:** I would say it still happens in live action too. When it is, you’re still like, “Iterative.” That’s just the word that I hear a lot now. But yes, in animation, it is kind of the point of it, and particularly if you’re coming around during development, before the thing is in actual production, which then is still in reels. You’re never really shooting a thing. You’re never shooting it. That’s it, John.

**John:** That’s the thing is you’re never shooting and you’re never really in post. It’s all one blurry thing. There’s development, which there can still be an artist in that time, but it’s before you have this expectation of like, we’re really making this thing. But even when they say they’re really making the thing, they may not be making the thing. Nimona, it sounds like they were kind of making the thing, and then they decided they weren’t making the thing, and then, luckily, someone else said, “Sure, we’ll make the thing.”

**Pamela:** I think of scenes that we made and finished in Ralph Breaks the Internet that were done in animation for the most part and then got cut. That’s that. Then you’re like, “Post-credit sequence.”

**John:** Yay.

**Pamela:** “Yay. We’ll still use it.” It’s never being shot.

**John:** We had Jennifer Lee on to talk about Frozen. They were way down the road in a lot of stuff, and they made giant changes. There are sequences that they couldn’t go back through and completely redo, that are just – they’re not quite the same movie, and yet you roll with it because you roll with it. I think it was the abominable snowman sequence. It’s like, it’s not kind of the same movie, those aren’t kind of the same characters, and yet it works, because it needs to work. They did not have the time to go back through and completely change that the way they would want to change that. You’re always making those choices. In that way, it feels more like traditional film and TV, where you shot a thing, and you gotta make it work in the editing room.

**Pamela:** Sometimes you’re just so close that you really are the only one who’s noticing. In its whole, people are like, “Yay.” But this question of how have things changed with writing for animation now in the after-days of the strike – nothing.

**John:** Nothing. Here’s what I would say is different. One of the best things about the strike for me were the days that I was at, generally, Warner Bros and would see a zillion TAG, The Animation Guild, folks out there on the picket line with us. I know you’ve pushed hard for improving conditions for writers working under TAG contracts. I think there was a sense of WGA versus TAG. That’s a ridiculous dichotomy. Really, the case is you want things to be WGA and TAG, because TAG is not just folks who are writing animation, but it’s all the other folks who are working in animation. It’s storyboard artists and other crucial people in animation. We would love to see movies and TV shows that have WGA writers who have the full protections and credits and residuals for the writing that they’re doing, and those projects have full TAG union members getting everything else done. We want union animation.

**Pamela:** Yes, we’re union parity. Putting it under TAG doesn’t mean I don’t have the same kind of protections and residuals that I would’ve had if you had made it WGA. Since TAG can’t free their writers, then that was what needs to happen within TAG. But not just writers. There are many, many members of TAG who are not being treated appropriately, which is why TAG might go on strike.

It is nice that it is less thinking that, “I thought everybody was WGA,” or, “I had no idea that most of you were being forced to work without a union at all, depending on the studio.” And I think just also an awareness of what a union does. But I think TAG still has a long way to go for people to understand and respect its union members.

**John:** Obviously, those negotiations are starting right now. TAG is part of larger IATSE, but TAG also has its own contracts it negotiates. It’s complicated. But we need to be mindful of it and just never pretend that writing animation is lesser than writing live action.

**Pamela:** That’s right. The things we were on strike for in the WGA are what does happen in TAG now.

**John:** Exactly.

**Pamela:** AI is already in TAG. It’s happening there. I’ve seen it. A lot of these protections that we were on strike about are because we know it can happen, because it does happen in animation.

**John:** Minimum staff size, for an example, we would talk to TAG animation writers, showrunners who basically could not hire any writing staff, and so were basically having to do everything themselves. That’s a danger you want to avoid in live action so that you don’t have showrunners just melting down because they don’t have the writing support they need.

**Pamela:** As a for instance.

**John:** As a for instance. As one of many for instances. Let’s do our One Cool Things. I’m so excited to see what you have for your One Cool Thing.

**Pamela:** I know you lived in Paris for some time. As an adult, you can do things that you didn’t get to do in high school, like learn French. Once I started going to the Annecy Animation Festival in France, I was like, “I want to keep coming back here, but I want to know more French every time.”

There’s this place called Coucou. Coucou French classes are based in Los Angeles and New York, where a lot of writers live. Coucou has two locations in LA, I think Silver Lake and their new one is in Culver City. But they’re also online. This is a way to learn French that has a lot of… For me I’ve always done it online, although there’s one down the street. We get together. We are conversing. We are learning. They have all different fun ways to practice your French. They send out newsletters for, “Here are some French rom-coms to watch.” They have little classes in poetry, book reading, flower arrangement. It is what if learning another language was a fun community as opposed to something you did alone and got confused about.

**John:** Going beyond just talking to Duolingo every day and making that little green owl happy.

**Pamela:** See, because Duolingo is a slot machine. Duolingo is the Vegas of language learning. I think it’s pretty cool to jam it in there. The Pimsleur method has its own way. But those are lonely tasks. I invite you to the Coucou community. There’s private lessons. There’s group classes. There’s workshops and events. You can walk down to your little French location and hang out and have a baguette. It’s fun.

**John:** That’s awesome. That’s fun. My One Cool Thing is a video I saw this past week by David Friedman. He was looking at the Fox sitcom ‘Til Death, which I remember the title, but I never saw a single frame of that sitcom. The video talks through the fact that ‘Til Death made it to four seasons, not because anybody was watching it, but because Sony, who was making the show, made a deal with Fox to say, “We’ll give it to you for free.” They just wanted to hit that 100 episodes so they could hit syndication.

In that fourth season, they had a new showrunner. Because no one was watching, they could just make some really weird, wild swings. Characters became aware that they were on a sitcom. They just did some things you shouldn’t be able to do in a sitcom, that were kind of fun and interesting. I don’t need to go back and watch the sitcom, but I do enjoy Friedman’s exploration of how strange this sitcom got, because it was just allowed to get so strange.

The other thing I thought was interesting was a blog post Friedman did about how he constructed it, because this was 80 hours of video to watch. He didn’t want to watch the whole sitcom. He built a script that went through and figured out which cast members were in which things, because they kept changing out cast members, and basically built an Excel spreadsheet that showed where the changes were, so that he could just look at those moments and not have to watch the whole thing, which was just very smart and felt very much like how I would do it. I enjoyed the video and his explanation behind the scenes.

That is our show for this week. Scriptnotes is produced by Drew Marquardt. It’s edited by Matthew Chilelli. Our outro this week is by Vincent DeVito. If you have an outro, you can send us a link to ask@johnaugust.com. That’s also the place where you can send questions. You’ll find the show notes to this episode and all episodes at johnaugust.com. That’s also where you’ll find transcripts and sign up for our weekly newsletter called Inneresting, which has lots of links to things about writing. We have T-shirts and hoodies. They’re great. You’ll find them at Cotton Bureau.

You can sign up to become a Premium member at scriptnotes.net, where you get all the back-episodes and Bonus Segments, like the one Pamela and I are about to talk through on the Oscars and attending the Oscars and how fun the Oscars are. But that couldn’t be as much fun as having Pamela on again as a co-host here. An absolute delight getting to chat with you about these things.

**Pamela:** So much fun. I can’t wait to come back again. I hope you invite me. Thank you.

**John:** We will. Also, remind us where we can find you, because you have your other podcast as well. Talk through, how do we find you?

**Pamela:** My other podcast, like this is one of mine – I’ll take it. I cohost a podcast called Listen to Sassy, where we go through every issue of the beloved ’90s magazine, that you can find all about at Listen to Sassy – I was like, “Is it dot-com or dot-net? Hold on.” It’s dot-com. Of course it is. Listentosassy.com. I don’t go to Twitter.

**John:** I stopped Twitter too.

**Pamela:** You can find me on Instagram @pamelaribon. Listen to Sassy is a great way to hear more about what it’s like from the years when you talked like this.

**John:** Perfect.

**Pamela:** You know what else though? If you do want to watch My Year of Dicks, it’s at myyearofdicks.com.

**John:** I love it. Everyone should watch it. It’s so, so good. People will tell me, “Oh, Pamela Ribon was on the show, and I finally watched My Year of Dicks. It was really good.” I’m like, “Yes, I told you that last summer.”

**Pamela:** You guys were very early supporters. I thank you. I don’t know that we would – segue – be getting to the Oscars without you, so thank you so much.

**John:** Hooray.

[Bonus Segment]

**John:** The Oscars. You were just at the Oscars. This is your second time at the Oscars, because you were nominated for My Year of Dicks. This time I saw you on Instagram in the back of other people’s photos. I’ve been to the Oscars a couple times, but only in the balcony stuff, because I’ve never had a thing nominated. Talk to us about your Oscars experience either of these two years.

**Pamela:** Who’s counting? This is the fourth film I’ve worked on that’s been nominated for an Oscar.

**John:** Congratulations.

**Pamela:** But only the second time I had tickets. That’s how it goes. Last year when we were nominees, we were seated where you go. It’s kind of the mezzanine. You’re not all the way down there. Through a series of surprise events, I ended up way down there in the orchestra. Listen. I don’t think it’ll ever be more fun, unless I ever win an Oscar, to go to the Oscars. It was a most unexpected place to find myself. We could talk about the two different versions.

**John:** I want the celebrity-filled glamour version. This most recent version, paint the scene. Who was around you? You were very close to Charlize Theron and a bunch of other folks.

**Pamela:** Yes. I assumed it was like Forrest Gump really. “What’s Pam doing there?” In the past, usually my friends will go, “Are you at the Oscars?” and I’ll have to say, “That is Patricia Arquette.” This year it really threw my friends off, because they were like, “I knew you were going, but I knew you weren’t supposed to be seen, so what are you doing behind Charlize Theron?”

I asked an usher, “Where are these seats?” They said, “They’re down there.” I thought, “That’s a mistake. I’ll keep walking and figure out what that means,” because they said O means orchestra. I was like, “Okay. These letters don’t make any sense, because this says F.” Truly, someone was like, “The stage is A, and you’re at F,” slowly explained to me, which is what I needed, because at this point my eyes were exploding, because I’m like, “That’s Slash. Why is Slash here?” That’s the first thing I saw was a hat.

**John:** Are you at the right awards show? Is this the Grammys?

**Pamela:** I was like, “That’s Nicholas Cage.” Nothing made sense for a second, because, again, once you see Slash’s hat, you stop making sense. Then I saw Eugene Lee Yang, and their outfit was this Billy Porter-esque red suit-gown. I was like, “Oh, that’s the Nimona group.” Then they pointed me that way. Then I sat next to Lloyd, who’s another one of the credited writers.

And then Riz, who was going to sit next to me, had not been seated yet, so I didn’t know it was gonna be him. But right before I left the house, I thought, “Riz Ahmed did us a real service by making announcing My Year of Dicks a viral event,” and so I had a little thank you dick for him, because I’m classy. I have these little crystal dicks – Malala also has one – that I give out when you come near My Year of Dicks and help it out in some way. I thought, “Whatever, I’ve kept this one for Riz. We’ll see. Maybe I’ll see him after the after-party or something.” Then he’s sitting next to me.

The first thing I do, because I don’t know, I’m like, “They’re certainly gonna kick me out of this seat,” because I turned to Lloyd, I’m like, “The writers don’t get to sit here. Someone’s made a mistake. I don’t know what’s going on. Thank you, Netflix, to the Academy. But regardless, we’re not gonna mess this up.” That’s all I kept saying, “We’re not gonna mess this up,” because that is Steven Spielberg sitting next to me, and I’m in front of the Poor Things team. And I don’t even know yet that Christopher Nolan is to my left. I’m too busy. Lloyd is doing the same thing. He’s like, “Pam, I see Jennifer Lawrence.” It’s so wild. I’m like, “That is Bradley Cooper.” It went Downey, Blunt, Cillian, Sir Ben Kingsley, Jon Batiste, Pam, like that makes any sense.

**John:** Do you have an explanation now of what happened?

**Pamela:** These are the seats. These are the seats that I was told to sit in. I was like, “Okay.” I would give out gum at breaks and then be like, “We’re getting rid of the gum when the commercials are over, because I am not gonna be gum girl.” I could really only see a number of memes happening, of me opening my mouth and just like, “Yeah, y’all,” just gums.

I will say I kept it together for the most part, but there was a moment when they were putting down all the lights in the aisle. They were just putting down a bunch of lights in the aisle. And I went, “The Kens are coming. The Kens are coming. The Kens are coming.” I turned to an usher. I went, “Right? I didn’t miss it?” How would I have missed it? Pam, you’ve been here the whole time. “The Kens are coming?” The guy goes, “The Kens are coming.” I was like, “Ah! It’s happening! [Unintelligible 01:13:01] Kens!” Which was such a chaotic moment that I didn’t really get to see his Ken piece, because they lift him in the air. We were under the show. I didn’t know the screen was telling people to grab flashlights and sing. I saw none of that. But it was still glorious. I highly recommend fifth row seats to the Oscars.

**John:** It’s good stuff.

**Pamela:** Oh my gosh.

**John:** I’ve been twice, I guess. The Oscars are fun in person. It’s different than watching them at home, because, obviously, during the commercial breaks, stuff is happening. I don’t know if during your awards they deliberately did stuff, or was it just everybody running for the bathrooms and the seat fillers coming in. But it’s fun when you’re – the off-camera moments are really delightful too.

**Pamela:** There was a lot of people getting up and walking around. I will say the year before when we were up in the mezzanine, which, wonderful seats, but when you’re a nominee for a category that has to move you, we were waiting for our category and then we didn’t know exactly when it was gonna be. Then they move you down to the seats that are for your category. There’s a camera on you that isn’t gonna be used or needed. Then you don’t win, and then the Oscars are over, really. That’s it. You’ve worked so hard, and then that moment happens, and you can go out to the lobby and have a drink and nurse your wounds. That is how I did it last year.

**John:** In this situation, Nimona could’ve won. Would you have gone up on stage if Nimona had won?

**Pamela:** We had been told by the team, “Hey, man, if we win, you guys, please, everybody come up,” which I’m pretty sure we would’ve. We would’ve been so excited. And we were a jumpable distance to the stage. But traditionally, no. Animation, they’re just like, “We can move on with this.”

It was the third category this year, so we also pretty early on were like, “That’s it. We just get to sit here and enjoy the show.” I don’t know if I had been back there with the rest of the team or even any – there were three different groups of Nimona all around in the Oscars. Probably we would’ve gone to find each other.

But we were so close that even Lloyd was like, “I think I’ll go get a drink,” and I was like, “Lloyd, look, if you leave, there’s a seat filler. Who knows what you’re gonna miss? I bet it’s Billie Eilish,” which it would’ve been. I said, “We’re just gonna sit here and be grateful for the shortest Oscars experience we’ll ever have.” It was over in a blink.

I thought watching it on my couch in my pajamas with my friends was fun. Going as a nominee but then not winning was its own kind of fun. This was fantastic. This was joyous. Miyazaki won. What are you gonna do? It wasn’t even the kind of thing where the winner is like, “Come on, that hack.”

**John:** You didn’t go into this with the expectation like, “Oh, we’re gonna beat Spider-Man and Miyazaki.”

**Pamela:** That’s pretty tough. The miracle of it existing – the studio was shut down. The miracle of it getting a nomination, which that requires your peers in the animation community to recognize the film and nominate it. There were a lot of wonderful films that year that didn’t make that final five. To win? How do you get all of the other branches to know about a movie on Netflix that didn’t have a theatrical release when you’re up against Spider-Verse and then Miyazaki? All of the short-list nominees really were contenders.

I saw Robert DeNiro. He did not have a good time at those Oscars. You could probably go and get jaded from it all, but I don’t know, for me – I love watching people win things in general, and particularly if they are young females. It’s just my favorite thing to watch is a young woman win something.

**John:** The editor of Oppenheimer, loved her.

**Pamela:** Absolutely. The girl with the short film. Any young woman clutching something she won is my favorite thing. The Oscars this year, it was a pretty – then I’m like, no, not every film was a happy, happy film, obviously, but there was an atmosphere down there of, “The show’s about to begin, and I think it’s gonna be a good time.”

**John:** It was a good time. It was a good show.

**Pamela:** Nicholas Cage was right in front of me. I couldn’t stop. Maybe you don’t know this. Why would you? When I was a little girl, my imaginary friends were all celebrities.

**John:** Wow.

**Pamela:** I moved a lot. You’d make a friend, and then you’d lose touch with her. But these celebrities always moved with me, time to time. There have been a couple of times in life when I’ve worked with someone who was my imaginary friend when I was a kid. I don’t tell all of them that, but I do wait, if there is a moment, and I let them know, because why not? But this was what it looked like when I was a little kid going to bed, and I had all my imaginary friends hanging out with me before bedtime. This is the closest to that experience.

**John:** Pam, you didn’t win an Oscar, but you’ve won the Oscars. You probably had the most fun of anyone there, and I love that.

**Pamela:** I will say then, here’s this Charlize moment. She wasn’t sitting in front of me. Jon Batiste was sitting in front of me. Then he went to go do his song, and then some seat fillers were sitting in front after that. Then at one point this beautiful woman is walking toward me. I’ve seen Charlize Theron more than once in person. Never I’ve spoken to her. But every time the same thing happens in my head, which is, “Does she live in my neighborhood? Does she have kids at my school?”

**John:** Totally.

**Pamela:** I don’t know why. Then she sat down. Lloyd’s like, “That’s Charlize Theron.” I was like, “That’s a seat filler. We know this.” He goes, “You can’t see what I can see. 100 percent, Charlize Theron is sitting directly in front of you.”

Then they started passing out these little tequila bottles, and they said, “There’s gonna be a toast.” That’s all we knew. You get used to these cameras moving around to position themselves in front of nominees or Steven Spielberg for the bit. The cameras were whipping around the front. The bit began with Jimmy, of like, “This is my wife, Charlize Theron.” As soon as he said, “My wife, Charlize Theron,” Lloyd elbows me, goes, “We’re definitely about to be on TV.” But I already had figured this out. I was just like, “You guys, act the part.” The actor in me went, “And we’re on.” Then the camera came up for her reaction shot. I was like, “You’re not gonna mess this up.” I’m just like, “My role is audience lady behind Charlize.”

**John:** Absolutely. You’re gonna be present but not necessarily in focus.

**Pamela:** You can totally see it in the clip. You can see me go, “And we’re live.” I wasn’t gonna mess it up. I wasn’t gonna be gum girl. I wasn’t gonna get kicked out of those seats. It was an honor and a privilege to be in a scene at the Academy Awards. Please ask me back. Riz and I were like, “I think every year.” We’re like, “Every year.”

**John:** Every year.

**Pamela:** He’s like, “Next year, what if we’re two rows up?” I said, “Maybe we have to make something to do that.” I said, “But I’m fine with that, as long as two years from now we’re on stage announcing best animated short film.”

**John:** Love it.

**Pamela:** These are the goals.

**John:** Pam, congratulations again. Yay. Thank you for sharing your Oscar experience.

**Pamela:** Thanks. I can’t wait to hear your next one.

**John:** Yay.

Links:

* [Pamela Ribon](https://pamie.com/) on [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/pamelaribon/)
* [Listen to Sassy](https://listentosassy.com/)
* [My Year of Dicks](https://myyearofdicks.com/)
* [Nimona](https://www.netflix.com/title/81444554) on Netflix
* [Hire Survivors Hollywood](https://hiresurvivorshollywood.org/)
* [Dune: Part Two Clip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZpGLqLoBJA)
* [‘Fundie Baby Voice’ Seems To Be Everywhere Now. Here’s What You Should Know](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/fundie-baby-voice_l_65eb6b2fe4b05ec1ccd9e9b9) by Caroline Bologna for Huffpost
* [In a World – Smoothie](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvficd_IxBc)
* [Natural Born Killers 1990 Draft](https://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/Natural_Born_Killers.PDF)
* [Natural Born Killers 1993 Draft](https://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/natural-born-killers_shoot.html)
* [Lin-Manuel Miranda on ‘I Want’ Songs, Going Method for ‘Moana’ and Fearing David Bowie](https://www.dinnerpartydownload.org/lin-manuel-miranda/)
* [More (Outtake)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGtjl5YbPdQ) from Moana
* [How Far I’ll Go](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPAbx5kgCJo) from Moana
* [How Bad Can It Get for Hollywood?](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/01/opinion/oscars-hollywood-extinction-event.html) by Mark Harris for NYT
* [This Sitcom Got WEIRD When Nobody Watched It](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkGsk6RBSgg) by David Friedman
* [Researching An Old Sitcom With AI](https://ironicsans.beehiiv.com/p/researching-old-sitcom-ai) by David Friedman
* [Coucou French classes](https://coucoufrenchclasses.com/)
* [Get a Scriptnotes T-shirt!](https://cottonbureau.com/people/scriptnotes-podcast)
* [Check out the Inneresting Newsletter](https://inneresting.substack.com/)
* [Gift a Scriptnotes Subscription](https://scriptnotes.supportingcast.fm/gifts) or [treat yourself to a premium subscription!](https://scriptnotes.supportingcast.fm/)
* Craig Mazin on [Threads](https://www.threads.net/@clmazin) and [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/clmazin/)
* John August on [Threads](https://www.threads.net/@johnaugust), [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/johnaugust/?hl=en) and [Twitter](https://twitter.com/johnaugust)
* [John on Mastodon](https://mastodon.art/@johnaugust)
* [Outro](http://johnaugust.com/2013/scriptnotes-the-outros) by Vincent DeVito ([send us yours!](http://johnaugust.com/2014/outros-needed))
* Scriptnotes is produced by Drew Marquardt with help from Chris Csont, and edited by [Matthew Chilelli](https://twitter.com/machelli).

Email us at ask@johnaugust.com

You can download the episode [here](http://traffic.libsyn.com/scriptnotes/636standard.mp3).

The original post for this episode can be found [here](https://johnaugust.com/2024/is-this-person-going-to-ruin-everything).

**John August:** Hey, this is John. Heads up that today’s episode has just a little bit of swearing in it.

Hello and welcome. My name is John August.

**Craig Mazin:** My name is Craig Mazin.

**John:** And this is Episode 635 of Scriptnotes, a podcast about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters.

Now, sometimes on this podcast we talk craft. Sometimes we talk business. Today on the show, it’s half and half. On the business side, how do you make sure that person you’re hiring for your movie or casting on your show, Craig, isn’t an absolute monster?

**Craig:** Uh-oh.

**John:** We’ll talk through best practices on vetting people. And on the craft side, how do write for characters whose native language is not English? We’ll look at and listen to examples for how to do it right and some pitfalls to avoid. We’ll also answer some more listener questions. And Craig, for a bonus segment, something I don’t think we’ve ever talked about enough on this podcast: cults.

**Craig:** Oh, god, I hate cults.

**John:** I love cults so much.

**Craig:** Why did it have to be cults?

**John:** Why did it have to be cults? Now, I joined the Zoom late, but I think you and Drew were already talking about this first item of business here, which is you love word games, but I was playing the new New York Times beta version word game, and I suspected, this is not gonna be Craig’s thing. I’m talking about New York Times Strands.

**Craig:** Strands. What a nice way for them to just rebrand word search, the dumbest of all puzzles. It’s not a puzzle. It’s just searching.

**John:** It’s a word search with a theme you have to discover, unlike a classic word search where a word can be either vertical, horizontal, or diagonal. Here, they can go around in various permutations, because it’s all done digitally.

**Craig:** One of the things that Dave Shukan, my frequent solving partner, and I often discuss when we are going through puzzle suites, you will see certain types of puzzles emerge over and over, because that’s pretty standard. Acrostics, for instance, is kind of a slog. I don’t know if you’ve ever done an acrostic. The New York Times used to run them and just stopped running them online for some reason no one can fathom. But they’re a bit of a slog. Word searches are the ultimate slog.

One of the things that Dave often remarks is, he’ll say, “This is a puzzle, but it isn’t any fun.” I agree with that. Word searches are just simply not fun. They’re just the busy work of puzzles. You just sit there, and you isolate a letter and then look around and see what other letters connect to it, and then you just keep going. But there’s actually nothing to solve. You’re merely just looking.

**John:** I’m not a huge fan of this. I’m still playing it every day, sort of out of inertia. What I will say is the fact that you don’t know quite what the theme is and what the unifying themes are, then once you actually discover, oh, this must be the pattern, then you actually can start looking for words you think might be there. My standards are lower than yours.

**Craig:** Listen. If people enjoy it, I’m not taking it away from them. And I don’t want to be a puzzle snob about it. I’m not snobby. There are certain versions of word searches that can be inventive. Foggy Brume, who makes the Panda Magazine puzzle suites, will often do word searches where there is some fascinating little gimmick inside of it. And discovering the gimmick and how it functions is the fun part. The word search itself is fairly easy. You’ll start to see words right away and then wonder, but what does this have to do with anything? And then you realize, oh, I see. If you take the end of this word over here and the beginning of this word over here, they spell a country name. Aha. What does this mean? There’s solving to do. This just looks like find a bunch of words and see what they are. Strands, I’m out.

**John:** It’s fine.

**Craig:** No, thank you. I think when it comes to a bunch of words that are then unified by a theme, my prior One Cool Thing, Squeezy, far more fun for that.

**John:** I thought we might start with a question here as an amuse-bouche, because we have two big topics, but sometimes the questions get shunted way to the back of the episode. Drew, can you start us off with a question here?

**Drew Marquardt:** M.R. writes, “Yesterday I gave notes on a script and called out what I’ve always heard is script cheating, which is a piece of information that’s written but it’s unfilmable, like an action like saying something like, ‘Kate enters. She’s the sister of Jess,’ or, ‘Mike sits at a desk. He thinks a lot of himself.’ Kate entering and Mike sitting are filmable, but the descriptors are not. And you can’t tell an actor, ‘Just act like Jess’s sister,’ or, ‘Think a lot of yourself.’

“I called out a very similar situation in said script and received this email back: ‘Hey, M.R. I went through some of the notes, and I just want to let you know that your script is supposed to have voice. I don’t think it’s wise for you to give people notes saying script cheating, which is not anything I’ve ever heard of. I think you may be hurting other writers with some of your feedback. Just be careful with notes like that.’ Obviously, every script has a voice, but was I wrong to give this script a cheating note?”

**John:** Neither side here is completely perfect, but I think there’s some balance and subtlety.

**Craig:** Everyone’s wrong.

**John:** Everyone’s wrong. There’s some balance here that I think we need to find. Let’s start with the second person, like, “I’ve never heard of that as called cheating.” I think we’ve talked about this on the podcast as cheating. There’s things you could put on a page that if they’re genuinely unfilmable and they’re not actionable in a way – there’s pieces of information you could put on a script that there’s no way for the audience to have that piece of information – that is cheating. There can be an issue with that.

It also feels like M.R. may be going overboard in what he was considering cheating, because as we’ve talked about on the podcast before too, there are times where you want to give some flavor, some texture, some tone on the page that lets you know what this feels like, even if it’s not directly something you can aim a camera at.

**Craig:** Look. This is why writing groups and such are problematic at times. We don’t know M.R., so we don’t know the tone. We don’t know if this is the final straw, if this is something that happens all the time. We don’t know if everyone’s like, “Oh my god, M.R., why are you so mean to everybody?” I don’t know. We don’t know the context. All we know is this.

In this isolated bit, script cheating is the nice way of saying bad writing. This is already the nice way, because it’s bad writing to say, “Kate enters. She is the sister of Jess.” That’s bad. It’s bad because it is short circuiting the writer’s obligation to inform the audience in a creative way that Kate is Jess’s sister, which I assume happens in the script at some point, and so the cheating is probably not even necessary.

But yeah, script cheating is a perfectly fine… Honestly, if you can’t handle that, I don’t even know what to tell you about what you’re facing in your career, should you have one. John and I have sat in rooms and been just obliterated. Especially when you’re starting out and you don’t have enough credibility for people to even respect you when you walk in the room. You walk into a room, the knives are out before you even sit down. Yeah, you’re gonna hear some stuff that’s harsh.

Look. John, you and I are old. We’re of that generation. And I know the new generation really doesn’t like this stuff. But as far as I’m concerned, script cheating is a perfectly fine way of saying that’s just bad.

I’m more annoyed by somebody saying, “I don’t think it’s wise for you.” You could always just say, “Hey, you know what? Thank you for that. I have to tell you it kind of hurt. I know you didn’t intend to hurt. I’m just letting you know it did and that maybe if there was a kinder way for you to say that next time, it would just make it easier for me to hear, and it would be more productive for me. But thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it.” There’s nothing wrong with that.

**John:** I’m thinking back to notes I’ve given to writers. At times, I’ve been overly… They’ll send me the script, and I didn’t ask the question first, like, “What do you want? Do you want me to tell you how great it is or to give you constructive feedback or to be really, line by line, diligent about things I’m noticing here?” There have been times I’ve over-corrected on the page, and that was a problem.

In the situation of, let’s talk about, “She is Jess’s sister.” There may be times in a perfectly fantastic script where, on a first introduction of a character, you might say, “Tina, Jess’s sister, comes through the thing.” We’re establishing that they’re sisters, and we’re gonna find that out really quickly anyway. But as a service to the reader and figuring out what the context of all this is, it’s really genuinely helpful. I do find sometimes writers get obsessed with these “have to figure out everything from first” principles, like you can’t put anything on the page that wouldn’t be immediately visible to the audience. That’s not doing anybody a favor either, because again, the script is meant to approximate the experience of being in that movie theater. But in that movie theater, you’re going to say, “Oh, those two characters look a lot alike. They’re probably sisters.” Sometimes you need to give that information on the page, that you would not need to give in the actual film.

**Craig:** That is true. In those instances, sometimes what I will say is, “Kate enters. We’ll find out shortly that she’s the sister of Jess.”

**John:** Exactly.

**Craig:** To help the reader there get a few things that might be pretty evident on screen, but you’re also telling them, “Hey, you will find out. This isn’t the only time that the information will be available to you here in an action description in a script. Just trust me, you’ll find out, but for now, FYI.” Perfectly fine thing to do. But I don’t know, tone policing here. It feels a little tone police-y to me.

**John:** Yeah, it does. It does a bit.

**Craig:** That said, if M.R. is a total jerk and everyone hates M.R., then all the people listening to this are like, “Oh my god, why are you enabling M.R.?” I hope M.R. is not a jerk. I really, really do.

**John:** I hope so too. It’s not also clear from this context whether the person who was writing back was talking about their own script or maybe they’re part of a group that were looking at some other third person’s script. We don’t know what the whole context of this is. But just again, be cool. As you’re giving notes, make sure you’re understanding the context the person’s asking for the notes, and think about how you would receive those notes as a writer.

**Craig:** Can I give a guess?

**John:** All right.

**Craig:** I think that the person who wrote M.R. is not the person who wrote the script, but rather, that person’s friend. The person who wrote the script complained to their friend about it, was upset, and then the friend said, “I’m gonna go tell M.R. to not do that anymore.” That’s my guess.

**John:** Hey, Craig, in our actual real life, there have been times where one of us has had to go to a third person and say, “Hey, this is a thing to be aware of.” That’s a scenario that happens in real life.

**Craig:** Yeah. Sometimes you need to be an intermediary. And when you are, it always goes best if you feel like a neutral intermediary, where there aren’t judgments involved, but rather, just facts and requests. I think the problem with this is, “I don’t think it’s wise. I think you may be hurting people,” and then an imperative, “Be careful.” Not, “In the future, it might be helpful if.” For somebody who’s concerned about hurting people with feedback, this person didn’t seem too concerned about hurting M.R. with feedback.

**John:** The last little point about voice is there are times where you’re gonna put something in a script that it’s not filmable, you’re never gonna see it, but it just helps give the reader a sense of who that person is, what the space is like. You can describe how it smells. Listen. You’re not gonna actually ever smell that, but it gives us a sense of what it’s ultimately gonna feel like and sound like anyone else to. You say, “Oh, that’s cheating.” It’s not really cheating, because you’re providing context that is gonna be helpful for the reader to understand what this is ultimately gonna look and sound like.

**Craig:** And for the actors as well.

**John:** Yeah, totally.

**Craig:** They can perform smelling something. They can perform having sweaty armpits. We probably won’t see it, but they know what it feels like. No question. As always, our advice is follow the rules but don’t necessarily follow the rules. The only rule we have is write well.

**John:** Write well.

**Craig:** Write well.

**John:** Podcast done. 635 episodes, we’ve reached our conclusion.

**Craig:** We got there.

**John:** We got there.

**Craig:** We got there in two words.

**John:** Now, Craig, as we’ve established previously on this podcast here, one of my goals for 2024 has been to become better at understanding and appreciating the differences between accents and dialects in English. This is a thing that you have a very natural talent for. You’re very good at performing different accents. I can hear it. I don’t have trouble writing it. But it’s not in my bones. It’s not in my brain to quite the same degree. And so I’ve been studying it. I’ve been working with an instructor on that. I’ve been working through, first off, the IPA, the International Phonetic Alphabet, and then really learning different native accents in English, so going through the British Isles and other places to really figure out what are the differences here, what is the musicality and changes between these different dialects and accents.

But one of the things we’ve been working on more recently is folks for whom English is not their native language and what are the common characteristics we see, what are the, not just mistakes, but just the structural changes they’re gonna make, what are the sound changes you’re gonna hear throughout that.

This is a thing that I think probably most of our listeners are gonna encounter at some point, is you have a character whose native language is not English. How do you write them on the page? Because you’re not obviously going to go crazy and try to approximate their accent. But they are gonna make different choices. I want to talk about the actual choices that’ll be reflected in the written dialog that you are doing to understand how a person whose native language is not English might be communicating their ideas.

**Craig:** This is an area where I think people used to blithely stumble about. And in their blithe stumbling, they may have conveyed intention well, but for people who were authentic speakers of that dialect or that accent or that language, they may have thought, “This is just ridiculous,” because we, all of us, I think, just used to just do stuff with less consideration for other people.

If you could look back at some of the scripts that were floating around when you and I started, people would routinely write Black characters with a Black dialect, AAVE, African American Vernacular English, and in doing so, just bungle it, or it just felt weirdly insulting if they were not Black themselves, and it just felt a bit foreign. That’s understandable.

What’s happened is there’s been a correction. But in the correction, I think a lot of writers – and we are always writing people that we are not – are kind of afraid to make a mistake. Writing out of fear is not helpful either.

**John:** What I want to talk about today is really looking for and listening to the changes in the musicality and the word choices that are gonna be likely for people coming from certain other native languages. And so we have some good examples here. Before we even get into the examples, I just want to talk through some things I’ve observed that are probably helpful if you’re thinking about a character whose native language is not English.

Most other languages are gonna have a different thinking word or sound. In English, we do an “um” or some sort of stalling word. Every language is going to have their own version. People tend to revert to their native thinking sound if they’re speaking English or some approximation of that. Be thinking about what that sound might be. You and I both have been in situations where, other countries, and we are reaching for a word. We kind of know what that word is, but we can’t quite get it. Your characters are gonna be doing the same thing. Be thinking about the pauses they’re taking, the approximations of the word they may try to get to.

If you’re speaking a language and it’s not your native language, you’re probably going to have reduced variation in how you’re forming structures in sentences. Non-native English speakers are gonna probably reach for the simple past rather than “he had” or “he did,” because we have so many ways to create the past in English. Other languages do too, but they’re gonna probably go for the simplest version of that. They will tend to go back to recycle the same word rather than go for synonyms and variety the way that we might, because they’ve found that one word, they’re gonna keep using that one word.

**Craig:** There is always a risk that you’re going to make your character sound dumb. Part of the counteraction is to show the frustration, if somebody does not speak English natively and they aren’t very good at it or they’re still learning, that there is a frustration, because I’ve felt that frustration trying to speak another language myself, where you’re like, “Okay, I know exactly what I want to say, but I’m struggling to put it into the words that I have available to me.” There’s also even the recognition and embarrassment that other people are looking at you and thinking you’re not doing very well. All of that stuff is good human work to think about when this is happening, so it isn’t just a convenient immigrant patois that we have seen many, many times, where people just say, “Me going to store,” and it just becomes Tarzan.

**John:** Sometimes when I’m speaking in French, I feel like, “Crap, I’m like a third grader here,” because I don’t have really simple stuff, and yet I have really complicated vocabulary, because I have cognates in English I can reach for. I could say some really complicated things pretty easily, complicated terms, but I can’t stitch together really simple things. I can go into a store, and I can’t describe the ice cube tray holder, maker thing. I don’t have that, but I have “lugubriousness” or I can reach for bigger words. But I don’t have simple things at my grasp. That’s a real frustration.

**Craig:** I kind of like the idea of you walking into a store, saying, “I need object for the making of ice. I apologize for the lugubrious nature of my request.” How confused would that guy be?

**John:** So bewildered. Another common feature would be overgeneralizing a rule. This is a thing that happens as people learn English. We make plurals by adding S’s to things, except when we don’t. We have “mice” rather than “mouses.” Those things are going to happen.

If the person’s native language doesn’t use articles the same way, like Russian doesn’t use most articles, they will drop them out. And so you’ll hear that in nonnative speakers, where we would put an “a” or a “the,” and they just plow through without them. That’s going to happen.

**Craig:** Interestingly, also, I’ve noticed the opposite. Ksenia Sereda, who is our director of photography here on The Last of Us, is Russian. I watched as her English has improved dramatically over the year since she started with us. She speaks about eight languages. She’s just this remarkable polyglot. Her English was good in the sense that she could absolutely communicate, but she had a few phrases. She loved the phrase “such as.” She would struggle at times to get things across, or there were those simple mistakes. For instance, when she would refer to the character of Joel, she would call him “the Joel.” Maybe in Russian, there is something that works that way. As the years have gone on-

**John:** I think she’s overcorrecting is probably what I suspect.

**Craig:** It may have been. She may have been overcorrecting. There are all these wonderful little things that over time she… When we switch a lens, like we’re on the 27, and we want to go to the 35, she would say, “Switch on 35.” One day I said, “I’m regretting saying this to you, because I love listening to you say, ‘Switch on 35,’ but for switching a lens, we would say, ‘Switch to 35.'”

**John:** Totally.

**Craig:** I do regret telling her that, because I miss it. I miss, “Switch on 35.” But it has been amazing watching somebody’s English improve so wildly and so impressively over the course of just a couple of years.

**John:** That gets back to our prepositions. Language is language. There’s just not gonna be a one-to-one match. Anybody who’s had to suffer through “por” and “para” in Spanish, it should be clean, how it does it, and some things just don’t work right. Some things don’t fall directly that same way.

Same thing happens with the verb tenses, and particularly in terms of how we’re dividing time. Very near future, far future, recent past, further back past, we have ways that we do it in English that just don’t match up with other languages, and there’s never gonna be a one-to-one match. Our present progressive, there are equivalents in other languages, but they’re probably not gonna get there very quickly as an ESL speaker. You may be stuck in the present rather than present progressive or the near future, because it’s what you have handy for you.

Lastly, I would say a thing you’ll often notice is, if a character is doing reported speech, so like, “He said to me this and this,” that’s really challenging to flip into that, because I’m staying in the present, but I’m reporting something that happened in the past. I have to get prepositions right for how all this fits together. Reported speech is often a place where you’re gonna notice inconsistencies. That’s often an opportunity to reflect the difference and difficulty of trying to communicate these ideas in English.

**Craig:** Native speakers will even struggle with that. That’s also part of recognizing it. There is this other thing when we’re trying to write people speaking English who don’t natively speak it. What they do speak and where they are from also should influence how they sound.

**John:** 100 percent.

**Craig:** If you listen to, for instance, comedians are so helpful for this, because so many comedians who are first-generation Americans will talk about their family and talk about their parents and do impressions of their parents. Listening to that gives you this incredible insight into the specificity of the pattern. It’s different. Koreans who have learned English sound different than French people who have learned English, because the root language is always there. The root patterns, the intonations, musicality, tempo, rhythm, all of that stuff bleeds across.

Here’s some really controversial advice here, folks. When you are writing someone from a country who is speaking English as a not first language, talk to people who know, if you are not one of them, and have them look it through. Have them advise. They will help you. They will make it so much better if you do.

**John:** Absolutely. Last, I would say always consider when that character started learning English, because that will not only affect the accent down the road, but also their facility with the language. For my dialect class, I was going through some Japanese speakers of English, and there were these diplomats whose English was just so spectacularly good, and there were also folks who had learned it much more recently. You could really hear the differences and how in their bones it was, and also, which English did they learn. You can definitely hear some of them learn British English versus American English. Those changes carry through.

**Craig:** Absolutely.

**John:** Let’s listen to some examples here. We’re gonna start with a clip from Anatomy of a Fall, the amazing Sandra Hüller here. This is a really amazing performance, because it’s all in France, and yet she is a German woman who is much more comfortable speaking English than speaking French. Some of her most pivotal scenes take place in English. Let’s listen to her in Anatomy of a Fall.

**Sandra Hüller (as Sandra Voyter):** You complain about the life that you chose. You are not a victim. Not at all. Your generosity conceals something dirtier and meaner. You’re incapable of facing your ambitions, and you resent me for it. But I’m not the one who put you where you are. I’ve nothing to do with it. You’re not sacrificing yourself as you say. You choose to sit on the sideline because you’re afraid, because your pride makes your head explode before you can even come up with a little germ of an idea. And now you wake up and you’re 40 and you need someone to blame. And you’re the one to blame. You’re petrified by your own fucking standards and your fear of failure. This is the truth.

**John:** Just so, so great. You could listen for her accent and her dialect, but really I want to focus on the word choices. A native English speaker probably would not have constructed those phrases in that way. I think she goes through a phrase, and then she repeats the end of that phrase in a way that feels kind of German to me. But Craig, what’s your telling on that?

**Craig:** It’s difficult to separate it from the accent, because the accent does add a certain… You just start to think this is definitely a German person talking. It doesn’t have the backwards syntax, or I suppose what Germans would call the non-backwards syntax, forward syntax. German syntax is very Yoda-like to us when we learn it.

**John:** The verb at the very end.

**Craig:** Yeah. It doesn’t have that. What’s also of interest here is that the person writing this, who is now an Oscar award winner for their fine screenplay, was also not a native English speaker. There’s all sorts of possibilities going on here. There’s a clipped nature to the pronunciation of the words that is wonderfully German. If you were to remove the accent using some horrible AI de-accentifier, you would notice. I think you would notice something would be strange. You just wouldn’t be able to put your finger on it.

**John:** If you look at the words scripted on the page – I haven’t gone back to the script to see exactly whether she’s saying word for word what was on the page – you would not guess that this is an American speaker. It doesn’t have an American way of putting stuff together. I could hear the same thing with an RP British accent. I could feel that working more, but it’s not an American accent. There’s a musicality to it. It’s really what I’m trying to get to. It’s that the order of the word, how it fits together, it feels specific to this character and this world, and it’s not some generic American accent.

**Craig:** There is a formality to it. Even the fact that the pronunciation is so careful. Even though there are words where it’s supposed to end in a D and it sounds like it ends in a T or something like that, which is typically German, or I believe she says, “Germ of an idea,” and she pronounces it “cherm.”

**John:** “Cherm.”

**Craig:** There is nonetheless a kind of over-pronunciation of some words, whereas, you’re right, a native American speaker would be eliding and slurring a bit more of the pronunciation there.

**John:** She’s speaking passionately and very quickly, and yet every little phoneme is coming through. That feels very specific as well.

Let’s jump through it. We don’t have the clip for it here, but we actually have the pages in this case. This is Past Lives. We had Celine Song on the podcast earlier. Here I want to take a look at, this is a scene happening in the East Village bar with Hae Sung, Nora, and Nora’s husband, Arthur. Just Hae Sung’s dialog here, he’s not a comfortable English speaker at all, and so his first line here is, “When I was 24 year, I… ” That’s right. That’s absolutely correct. The idea of 24 years old is a complicated thing. “When I was 24 year” is probably the Korean way of constructing how old you are.

**Craig:** There’s a video I saw floating around that a Korean American did, basically he was having a conversation with himself, like two people on a phone. The idea was what a conversation would sound like if Koreans just spoke English but in a perfect translation of what the Korean was. It’s remarkable. It is nothing at all like what we would understand the translation to be. It is very specific. Way fewer words are being used than you would use in English. It’s more compact. It’s more efficient. But it is very, very different. There’s a lovely extraction of that here. Listen. Oscar award nominee, Celine Song.

**John:** When we had her on the show, we didn’t have the script in front of us. I do like seeing how Nora’s dialog here when she’s talking to Hae Sung, the Korean comes first, and then there’s a slash and then what the subtitles would be come after it, which is a very natural, native way to do this. It feels really great.

Just going back through to Hae Sung’s English dialog, “But. Military, work, it’s… same.” Just as written on the page, you can sense he’s searching, he’s trying to find a way to communicate this idea. “There’s overtime pay, stuff like that here, right? In Korea, you work overtime all the time, but there’s no overtime pay.” He’s found the words. He’s keeping to the words he actually has and that have worked before. He’s staying with these simple patterns.

**Craig:** Phrases like “all the time” are easy to remember. But then later down, when she asks him, “It’s hard physically, or mentally?” he says, “Both. Definitely physical. Hard. And… ” She says, “Mentally?” And he says, “Mentally, I… strong,” which is probably how I would… If I were thinking about that in French, I would be like, “Je,” and then if I was just emotional, I would just go, “Fort.” Because “I am,” “je suis,” and then yeah, it just falls apart there at times.

What’s fascinating here, and Celine understands, when you’re talking with somebody who doesn’t speak English as a first language, you will naturally reply back with what they’re saying but in the correct format, almost as if you are teaching and confirming. “You’re strong mentally,” she says. And he says, “Yes, right.” There’s an appreciation there of, okay, good, you understood me, because part of the discussion between a person who speaks natively and a person who doesn’t is a confirmation that one is being understood by the other.

**John:** Absolutely. So crucial. The next clip is something that Drew found for us. This is from Irma Vep. The context here, we have a Hong Kong actress shooting a movie in France, and like Anatomy of a Fall, English becomes the British language between these two characters.

[Irma Vep (1996) clip]

**Zoe:** And you went to see the Batman, you know?

**Maggie:** Batman?

**Zoe:** Yes. No, not Batman, for with all, you know, Catwoman?

**Maggie:** The Return? The second one?

**Zoe:** Yeah.

**Maggie:** Oh, yeah.

**Zoe:** And you liked it?

**Maggie:** No.

**Zoe:** I thought, you know what, it was completely crap. I just went because Rene was mad and he said to me, “You have to go there to understand the film.” But I think it’s a movie for the fans, you know.

**Maggie:** The first one was bad enough, right?

**Zoe:** Yes.

**Maggie:** I don’t know why they’d make three.

**Zoe:** That’s true.

**Maggie:** But I think Catwoman was all right.

**Zoe:** Yes, it’s true. I like Catwoman. She’s nice. You know, I tell you everything, and then you can know me a lot. I mean, I don’t like American films. No.

**Maggie:** Right. I know what you mean.

**Zoe:** Yes? Everything is too much decoration, too much money. You agree with me?

**Maggie:** Sure.

**Zoe:** And all this money, this big money, big-

**Maggie:** And they’re so lucky to have so much money.

**Zoe:** Yes, but why? For what? For this? Or this? Nothing, you know.

**John:** Again, here we have two characters who are obviously seen in the film that they are looking at each other to try to get confirmation, like, do you actually understand what I’m saying, are we talking about the same things. Their levels of English are approximately the same. The French actress has a stronger French accent. But again, I think you could read it on the page and understand that these are characters communicating at 100 percent because they are trying to cross this bridge.

**Craig:** They’re using very simple phrases, a lot of questions. A lot of questions to make sure that the other person understands what they’re saying. This is an inherent insecurity of people that do not speak English as first language. They’re making sure that the other person gets it. Luckily for these two characters, they’re discussing something that everybody around the world shares, which is a ridiculous hatred of American movies that they all seem to watch over and over and over.

French people hate McDonald’s. They’re like, “Get out of our country, McDonald’s.” I’m like, McDonald’s would totally get out of your country if you stopped eating at McDonald’s. It’s a business. This is kind of amusing in that regard. It almost feels like a French textbook discussion. “Do you like American movies?” “No, I do not like American movies.” “Do you agree?” “Yes, I agree.”

**John:** Getting back to the question of, “Do you agree?” Do you answer that question with an affirmative or a negative? There’s the, “Yeah, no.” There’s all these little subtleties that we have in English. Every other language has their own specific subtleties there. When it’s not native in your bones, you’re going for the simplest way to make sure that the other person understands that you hear them and you can follow what they’re saying.

**Craig:** Yes. And if these people were speaking their native language, the discussion would be even more obnoxious, because it would be full of brilliant examples and wonderful moments. And there would also probably be much less agreement, because it’s too hard to disagree when you’re struggling to find the words. “I don’t like those movies, but I like Catwoman.” “Yes, I also like Catwoman.” Do you? Sure. At this point, now you’re just trying to have the conversation, which is an interesting thing in and of itself. There is a social grace to agreement. Disagreement requires subtlety, care, a lot of small discrimination between words, some of which will push things into a bad place, some of which will push things into an interesting discussion place. If you don’t have the instantly accessible toolkit for that, you may just default to agreeing.

**John:** I would say even though they’re both ESL speakers, I can imagine on a page that their voices still can read differently. Zoe, the French speaker here, the choices that she’s making and the small mistakes she makes feel French to me. The musicality feels specific to it. Maggie’s, who’s from Hong Kong, who has a more British background, also feels specific. I suspect even on the page, you can really read them as two very different voices, even though they’re still nonnative English speakers.

One of the most difficult exercises I had to do for my dialect class was take a scene that I’d already written, that was supposed to have two American speakers, and have one be Irish and one be Scottish. Really tough for my brain to switch between the two of those, because they’re distinct sounds, but in my brain they’re hard to hold apart.

**Craig:** What’s interesting, John, one of the things I admire about you is that you find these areas that are challenging for you and you just steer your boat right into them. Accents are fun for me. I enjoy them. That exercise you just described, I would actually look forward to. I don’t think it would be too much of a challenge for me. But there are things in my life that are incredibly challenging, like for instance, drawing. I am so bad. I have such a zero ability to naturally create realistic looking things, perspective, any of the fundamentals. The thought of taking a class to try and get better just makes me pee my pants in fear.

This is a honest question for you. My concern is, I would put a lot of time and effort in to become as good as somebody who had talent was when they were in kindergarten, because you either do or you don’t have that thing. What is your goal here?

**John:** With drawing, for example, that was one of my earlier areas of interest. I spent a year and I learned how to draw. I learned how to see and how to draw. I’m much better at it than I was. I’m not doing my practice every day or anything like that. But I got much better at it. But I also realized that, as you said, I’m only gonna get up to a level who was a 6th grader who was pretty good at drawing when they started.

With this, this is actually useful for me to be better at, because if I can hear these voices distinctly in my head more clearly, then it’s gonna be easier for me to write those characters and really hear their voices in my head clearly before I’m putting them down on the page. This is genuinely useful for me, I feel.

Again, recognizing what your weaknesses are and striving to improve them is fun to do. I picked up running, and so I can run really far now, which is surprising to me. Again, it just took practice and recognizing that you’re going to give up some other things in order to spend the time running.

**Craig:** There’s a topic for us to discuss maybe in a future podcast, if we continue to do the podcast. What episode are we on now?

**John:** 635.

**Craig:** That seems like a good round number. In any case, let’s say we were to keep going. That is about help, the concept of help, and recognizing as you move through your career where you’re going to need help. Even if you’re trying to shore those areas up, there are places that you identify.

I’m gonna give you an example right now for me. As I go through production, as I’m directing, one of the areas I know I need help with is – because, again, I have a very good sense of composition, but what I struggle with is just the very simple notion, as we’re shooting, of eye lines and which side of the shoulder you should be on. I need help with that. I have a fantastic sense of how things edit together. I understand where one shot should die and where another shot should pick up. I understand what kind of coverage I’m going to need. But oftentimes, I really do need help trying to figure out, wait, so in this shot, when they’re looking across the room from this one to that one, should the camera be over on this side or that side. I have help. I have camera [crosstalk 00:38:43].

**John:** You have help.

**Craig:** I have a script supervisor. I have a DP. There are all sorts of areas where at some point you just have to say, no matter how hard I’m trying, here are the following areas were I need help. But that’s a topic for another time.

**John:** Absolutely. I guess the last point about why I learn new things is that I enjoy being bad at things and struggling and being a newcomer at things, because it also just makes me feel young. I remember when I was young, things were hard. It was like, “Oh, I can’t figure this out.” Then you get better at it. It’s like, “Oh, I feel young.” It’s nice being a beginner at things sometimes.

**Craig:** I do enjoy the horror and excitement of being a level 1 character in D&D or starting a new video game that’s level-based, where you’re level 1 and basically one punch takes you out. You have no idea what the hell you’re doing and where you should go. You’ve barely mastered anything. It is like growing up all over again. It’s fun.

**John:** Let’s segue to our next topic, which can rely a bit on our experience of not being complete newcomers to things, which is on vetting. This past week, Craig, you and I were talking about a producer who had done terrible things. We were both surprised to learn about this, and shocked. But I also was reading this article in Slate talking about what they called Mean Too, so the extension of the Me Too movement, which is just like, oh, these people are assholes, and now we actually are going to identify these famous people as being assholes. We’ll put a link in the show notes to that.

A point they made in this article is that once you’ve hired a star, once they’re in wardrobe fittings, that star has a lot of power and control, and that you’ve ceded some of the power and control to a person who may not be a great person. I texted you, Craig, because as we were talking about this producer, you are a person who’s hiring a ton of people. You’re hiring actors and crew and everybody else. I want to ask you, how concerned are you about not just can this person do this job, but are they going to be a monster either on set or do something off set that’s going to reflect badly on the show?

**Craig:** It’s an enormous concern. The tricky part when you’re dealing with actors, there is a lot of information floating around out there. A lot. Now, there are actors that people just say, “It’s gonna be worth it.” There are actors – and it could be the same actor – where somebody else says, “Life’s too short.” I have a little bit more of a “life’s too short” vibe. There are certain people that have been proposed, and I would think to myself, “They would be perfect, but life’s too short.”

But when you’re talking about all these other people that you can be hiring, heads of departments and things like that, the danger is that there is an interaction gap. I typically will call fellow showrunners to inquire about potential heads of departments. It’s also a joy when I can report back to them. I texted Albert Kim just the other day to say that the prop master that I checked in with him about and hired has been doing just such a wonderful job, and that’s great.

But we, who are running things, have a certain kind of interaction with those people, because we’re their boss. What’s happening though when we’re not there, and they’re the boss in their fiefdom? How does that go on?

One of the very interesting aspects of showrunning that I hadn’t even anticipated was that if there is any kind of serious HR complaint, that the executive producers are filled in. We’re told. Thank god it does not happen frequently at all. But it is an eye opener to go, “Oh, okay, that’s surprising, because my interactions with that person were of this kind.” Apparently, once the cats were away, the mouse was mean. That’s a little nerve-wracking. It’s harder to get a read on that by checking around.

**John:** Let’s talk about vetting, because when you are considering hiring a person, be it an actor, be it a crew person, you’re going to look at their references, but hopefully you’re gonna find somebody who you can go to to say, “Hey, can you tell me honestly what it was like working with this person?”

When I get those incoming emails, I will say, “Yes, let me call you about them,” unless that person is just so spectacular that I will just email back, like, “This is the best person in the world. You should absolutely hire them.” The phone call is your friend here, because people will be honest and direct in a phone calls in ways they will, for reasonable reasons, won’t want to put down in an email.

Your point about, yes, ask showrunners, but if you could find somebody else to ask, that’s also going to help a lot too, because you get a sense of who are they like to assistants. There have been cases where I’ve called up folks who were assistants to people, said, “Tell me about them. What was it like to work with them?” Because if I’m just asking the people who hired them, they could be really good at managing up and managing their bosses, but absolute a monster when it comes to the people working for them. I don’t want that in my life.

**Craig:** No, you don’t. But there’s only so much you can do. That said, do all the things you can do as best you can. There are going to be errors. As you try and figure out who should be joining your crew, whether it’s as an actor or as a craftsperson, do your best, ask your questions. Just understand some people will be lovely and yet not a good fit for the show, in which case a change is made, and sometimes some people will be very talented but nightmares for various reasons, in which case there must be a change. But you’re hoping for that beautiful thing where what you expected is what you get. We don’t tolerate what we used to.

I myself have become way more aware of my own anger levels. I’m angry all the time. I’m like the Hulk. I wake up angry. I go to bed angry. But my anger is not at people. My anger is not this irrational whatever. My anger is entirely about trying to figure out how to get the stuff that’s in front of me to be like the stuff that I want to be in front of me.

There are times where I get frustrated, because, let’s say… They make me go to meetings, John. I go to a lot of meetings. I don’t want to go to the meetings, but I go to the meetings, because they tell me it’s really important, because I have to answer the questions so people know what to do. I will go to a meeting and I will get asked a question and I will answer it. Then there’s like three more meetings that feel very duplicative to me, and the questions get asked again, and I answer them again and again. And then I show up on the day, and the answer I gave 12 times in meetings has not occurred. This is enormously frustrating.

I’m just very aware that the frustration can be expressed, I can express it firmly, but volume is kind of a thing. Also, I’ve become aware – this is something like, if I taught a showrunning school, this would probably be lesson of day 1. You as a showrunner may think of yourself as – you may have a low self-esteem. You may have a lot of core shame. You may think of yourself as a schlub. You may have imposter syndrome. It doesn’t matter. When you interact with all of these other people, they are looking at you as the person who can fire them. You have this enormous influence on their lives. If you loathe them, not only will they get fired, but people are gonna call me, and then they’re worried that I’m gonna tell them that they’re no good. There’s a lot of just built-in fear. You have to remember what it was like talking to the big boss. You have to remember how intimidating that was, before that person even opened their mouth, before they did anything.

That lesson in awareness of your own power is really important, because I think a lot of people in Hollywood with power don’t feel like they have it, and so they don’t act like they have it. You have to just remind yourself that you have it.

No one’s perfect. There are moments. But we are hearing quite a bit about some people for whom it seems the moment of awareness will either never come or has yet to come, and no matter how many times people have officially complained, they don’t seem to care.

**John:** We’ve talked about Scott Rudin on the podcast before. There was a person who – it was like this weird badge of honor to have survived working in his office. That was incredibly screwed up. We completely misunderstood the assignment in terms of how to think about having survived in a difficult office. I think and hope we’ve moved on a bit from that and that we have come to understand, both as employers and as employees, the social contract we’ve made there cannot be about subjugation and control.

**Craig:** That’s right. We will always be a strange business in that we are empowering artists with a lot of money and a lot of control, and that means writers, directors, actors, as well as other artists, like cinematographers and production designers. Artists aren’t necessarily the most rational, calm-headed people in the world. It’s one of those things. There’s brains that work a certain way. Everybody accepts a certain amount of that. There are things that I think showrunners or directors or actors do, that if you did in an escrow office, you’d probably be shown the door almost immediately.

**John:** Oh my god, the number of conversations I’ve had with Mike where he’s like, “I cannot believe that this is permissible in your industry,” because he’s coming from a more corporate setting. He’s like, “How is that even possible?” It’s how it all works.

**Craig:** It is possible because you are dealing with very specific brains. You’ve gathered a lot of people together who are artists. There is a case to be made that extreme artistic talent and mental illness are very hard to distinguish from each other, that there’s probably quite a bit of overlap. People understand a little bit of it.

Also, specifically with actors, there is this understanding that no matter what we’re all doing, they’re the ones on screen, which means if they’re having a day, you gotta figure it out, because we can’t have the scene, which will exist forever in fixed form, be bad because they were having a day and everyone else said, “That’s unacceptable.” Then of course, you don’t want to necessarily encourage them to have their days. You have to figure out how to make it all work, and we generally do.

**John:** That’s very familiar to anybody who’s a parent. It’s like, how do you get through this tough situation without creating a pattern in which this is how you’re gonna deal with these situations all the time.

**Craig:** Showrunning and parenthood are remarkably similar. Remarkably. When you were raising Amy, I’m sure you and Mike at some point turned to each other and said, “She’s gonna be complaining about us in therapy, what, in about 10 years,” because you can’t help it. You can’t help it. It’s gonna happen. It’s just gonna happen. I know that there are probably people that have complained about me to their therapists, because I’m in charge.

Do you remember when you were starting out, the people that were in charge, it didn’t matter who they were, that one thing that everybody could bond over is either making fun of or complaining about the boss. You hope that you can be as close to, “You know what? He’s a great guy. He just has his weirdnesses.” That’s the best you can hope for.

**John:** That’s the best you can hope for, for sure. 100 percent. As we wrap up this topic, it’s easy to think about red flags. Let’s talk about some green flags. This is something, if you’re seeing these patterns, that’s a good sign.

One thing I always look for as a green flag is they repeatedly work with the same people again. They’ve worked with that director, that producer time and time over. There’s something there that’s working, and they’re willing to work together again. That’s generally a green flag for me.

**Craig:** Agreed. Also, what is their personal life like? It’s not anything that’s determinative. But if somebody is clearly going through a phase in their life where they have a relationship that’s falling apart, they are being sued, they’re getting into bar fights, they’ve become unreliable, that’s a problem.

Best practice, green flag, somebody whose life appears to be rather stable. They’ve got good people around them. It doesn’t necessarily mean they’ve been married for 30 years to the same person. It just means that there’s a certain stability in terms of their management, their friendships, their living situation, the way that they comport themselves. That’s always a green flag to me.

**John:** When people say spontaneously, “I love them,” you get a sense, oh, people love them. They didn’t have to say that. It’s not just they love their work. They actually love being around that person. Green flag.

**Craig:** Huge green flag. The thing is, we want to love people. When you hear that, you’re like, what a relief. The best information is exactly that: “I love them.” I’ve said to people – they’ve asked me about an actor or they’ve asked me about a crew person, I’m like, “I would take a bullet for this person.” The best recommendation you can get, the best green flag is, “I absolutely love this person. You may not hire them when I need them.” That’s the best green flag there is.

**John:** Red flag/green flag combo here. If you’re looking at their social media and they seem like a not stable person on social media, they’re not gonna be a stable person in your actual life. The green flag version of this is, you look at their social media, it’s like, “Oh yeah, I get this person. I get what they’re into. They’re posting some dog photos. They are also talking about things in a rational way.” That’s a green flag for me.

**Craig:** Yes. When it comes to actors, I have to say I’m old-school in the sense that I believe that backstage is backstage. What we want people to see are the characters that the actors play. That’s what we want. Obviously, there’s enormous interest in actors’ personal lives, and people are always gonna be asking questions.

But if social media feels a little bit like, “Hey, once the cameras are off, my reality show begins,” that’s a red flag for me. Green flag, like you said, once the cameras are off, the things that I put on social media are not that different from what anyone puts on social media, that implies a certain stability and maybe possibly the absence of extraordinary narcissism, which is always a red flag.

**John:** Probably – this is something you actually texted me – one of the best handers-out of red flags and green flags is your casting director, because casting directors, they know all the actors. They know the actors who they’ve seen over the last 20 years and the interpersonal relationships between those actors. They get a sense of that. You said casting directors. I said other actors. Those are folks who know what these people are actually like.

**Craig:** Yes. If I had a choice between asking an actor or a casting director, and I can only pick one, I would pick the casting director, because actors can have remarkable on-screen relationships with actors who are nightmares everywhere else.

**John:** True.

**Craig:** But casting directors hear back from everybody. They hear back from the directors and the producers, so they get the feedback. And they have been tracking people over the course of years. And they also saw those people when they were starting out. They can also say, “This person’s become a monster,” as opposed to, “This person has been just a solid human being from the very, very jump, and they continue to be.”

Our casting director this year is Mary Vernieu, and she was so helpful in that regard for a lot of the people that we’re bringing on. I have to say it’s been fantastic. Every choice, we’ve been rewarded. Green flags everywhere. Very, very excited.

**John:** Let’s answer one more question. I see one here from Steve about Dungeons and Dragons, so of course we have to answer this question.

**Craig:** Oh, gotta answer this question, yeah, obviously.

**Drew:** Steve writes, “My son Elliot is big into the Dungeons and Dragons world. He watches the movies, loves the 1980s cartoon, reads Monster Manuals from the library. Now he wants to play the actual game. However, it’s recommended for 12 and older, and he’s only 6. This hasn’t stopped him from designing dungeons,” he has a little image attached here, “and using monopoly dice to create characters. I’ve looked for junior versions but haven’t found any. Do you have any recommendations for a 6-year-old who desperately wants to be 12, so that he can better understand D&D?”

**John:** Oh, god, I’m so happy for Elliot. I’m so happy for Elliot’s dad, Steve, who’s gonna contribute to his love of Dungeons and Dragons. Googling around, I found a link I’m gonna put in the show notes here – it’s on Everhearth Inn – about how to play Dungeons and Dragons for kids. It gives some suggestions for here’s how you scale down the experience so it actually is appropriate for younger kids. It goes down to six. It goes down to Elliot’s age in terms of how you do that and how you get the sense of, okay, I am playing this character who’s doing this thing. Some simplified rules, so it’s very straightforward, but also fun for a kid that age.

**Craig:** It’s a tough one, because I think, Steve, probably Elliot is special. A six-year-old who is reading the Monster Manual and is designing dungeons and using Monopoly dice to create characters is pretty advanced. The issue is, who is he gonna play with? You know your son better than we do, Steve. If you feel like your son is particularly advanced and can do this, then my suggestion is, perhaps there’s a world where if you play, Steve – I hope you do – that maybe you can build a little one-shot for you and maybe a couple of your friends who play and also Elliot. Then maybe if Elliot has a friend that really, really wants to play, then now there are two kids who want to play. But six is very young. It’s exciting, I think, for Elliot. But I think he’s probably a rarity.

**John:** My friend Quinn has a kid who also loves to play D&D and started really young. Quinn’s frustration was that it’s hard to find other kids his age who can actually do stuff. They got a little school group together, and they eventually started doing it, but it’s a challenge.

I think Craig’s instinct, where you, Steve, are gonna be the DM, and Elliot and hopefully some other friends or some other adults are going to play through a little bit with him, feels right, and you’ll find ways to have it make sense.

I love that he is really into the actual Dungeons and Dragons game, so I don’t want to send him into a video space, but there are some video game versions of D&D or things that are like that, that could scratch that itch for a while before he has the ability to sit down and roleplay with others. I’m just nervous about it because I don’t want to lose this ability to imagine worlds in his mind and the reading of it all to be looking at a screen.

**Craig:** The video games unfortunately will probably not be content-wise appropriate for him at six. Certainly would not steer him towards Baldur’s Gate 3.

**John:** Not Baldur’s Gate 3.

**Craig:** That would be bad, although, boy, I love that game. But no, he’s six. He’s so young. He’s so young. It really is about providing a fun environment for him, and also, no matter how special he is, making sure that the adventure or the nature of it is short. Anything beyond an hour is going to seem like a thousand years to him.

**John:** Or it might be he might want to play for six hours, but again, you have to be the parent who’s structuring this. I want to talk about Elliot’s dungeon here, because look at how great this is. It has a gibbering mouther in it, a mimic surprise, some flameskulls.

**Craig:** I would say gibbering [said like jibbering], by the way.

**John:** Jibbering, gibbering. I like jibbering. I like jibbering.

**Craig:** You like jibbering? I don’t actually know how that is pronounced.

**John:** We’ll look it up.

**Craig:** Oh, it’s jibbering. Yep, it’s jibbering.

**John:** Okay. But it’s great. The fact that he’s into this, that his handwriting is actually pretty good for a six-year-old too.

**Craig:** It’s outstanding. It’s so much better than mine was. Again, to reiterate how bad I am at drawing, this right now is about what a map I would draw would look like. But I love that he understands some basic concepts. For instance, it looks like there’s some sort of water in the beginning. And then there’s an arrow, which I love, that says turn to the right. And then there’s a huge room with the gibbering mouther. Obviously, that’s not an easy two words to have as a kid. Then mimic surprise, he corrected his spelling of “surprise,” which a lot of adults fail to do. I love that he understood what the point of the mimic was. It looks like he might’ve drawn a T for trap there.

**John:** I think it’s a trap, yeah. But he’s got his door symbols there just right too.

**Craig:** He’s got flameskulls.

**John:** Who doesn’t love a flameskull?

**Craig:** [Crosstalk 01:00:09].

**John:** Adventurers don’t.

**Craig:** It also says “the end dungeon,” so I suspected that there’s more planned.

**John:** There’s more.

**Craig:** Elliot is terrific. I will say this, Steve. Your son will be a DM. He has big DM energy.

**John:** He has DM energy. It’s true.

**Craig:** No question.

**John:** He’s also very lucky to have you as a dad, because you’re trying to figure out how to help him do what he wants to do.

**Craig:** Thank you for not being a total monster.

**John:** It is time for our One Cool Things. My One Cool Thing is an article by Ronan Farrow – it ran in The New Yorker this last week or maybe the week before – on RuPaul. The article’s title is RuPaul Doesn’t See How That’s Any of Your Business, which I think is just great. If you ask RuPaul how are you doing, RuPaul says, “I don’t see how that’s any of your business,” which I think is just the best answer.

**Craig:** Oh my gosh, that’s great.

**John:** I watch Drag Race. I’ve known of RuPaul for forever. Never met them in person. I thought the article was great and really dug into the weird contradiction of a very public face who’s incredibly private and is always trying to draw out, “You gotta reveal the real you,” from the drag queens who are competing on the show, and does not want to reveal the real him very much at all. Of course, this is all in service of a memoir that’s coming out. It’s just really good writing by Ronan Farrow, just a really good profile of an important media figure, RuPaul.

**Craig:** This goes exactly to my earlier comment about in front of the curtain and behind the curtain and, especially when you think about somebody who has specialized in bringing drag to the forefront, how presentational and performative that is – not performative like the fake performative, but performance-oriented – and how there is a backstage. Even on Drag Race, which shows you the backstage, that backstage is on stage. There’s a real backstage that you never get to, which is correct.

He says something in this article that is so – I don’t know if he’s been to therapy, but it sure sounds like it. “Feelings are indicators. They’re not facts.” That’s a fascinating way of putting it.

**John:** That’s very therapy, yeah.

**Craig:** Very therapy and a wonderful thing. Also, the thing about RuPaul that’s always been evident is how smart he is. Reading this, it just sounds like… We do profiles of people that do these things that seem overtly funny and frivolous and silly, and then when you meet them, you realize how smart, because again, or awards should only be won by people that do comedy, and Drag Race is comedy.

**John:** Also, you recognize that what RuPaul wants contestants to be able to do are not things that RuPaul himself could’ve done coming up. The expectations, the levels have gotten so high that you have to be able to be an amazing designer, an amazing performer, an amazing dancer, amazing everything. And that’s just the table stakes to start playing.

**Craig:** Yeah. I also love how much of a businessperson he is. But you can’t make a show like that without being a very rigorous, serious person. Comedy is serious. I’m gonna read this. I’m fascinated by him. I really am. I just think he’s such a force. I’m so tired of us taking people who pretend to be serious seriously. I like taking people who pretend to be not-serious seriously. I think that’s far more interesting.

**John:** In our last episode we talked about counterfactuals. The counterfactual where we didn’t have RuPaul, where RuPaul wasn’t born or didn’t do drag or did some other thing, we would be at a different place. There would be drag 100 percent. But would we have the popularization, the mass platform of drag that we have now? I don’t think we do.

**Craig:** I don’t think we do. I think he’s an incredibly important person in that regard. There’s just an entire vocabulary we wouldn’t have. I think we know this for a fact, because until RuPaul came along, that culture existed.

**John:** 100 percent.

**Craig:** But mainstream wasn’t looking at it. Just wasn’t. Even when it popped through a little bit, like, what was the documentary, Paris is Burning?

**John:** Yeah, Paris is Burning. Fantastic.

**Craig:** Yeah. It popped out, and then it popped back down again. It’s not the same.

**John:** We always had drag performers. We had [unintelligible 01:04:32]. We had that gay camp sensibility. But it wasn’t all put together in a way like this.

**Craig:** No, and it wasn’t also unapologetic. When I was growing up, when you were growing up, it always seemed like we were laughing at the drag performance, and now we laugh with the drag performance. It’s very different.

I’m not a religious watcher of Drag Race, or any television show for that matter, as you know, but when I see it, it’s incredibly entertaining, and it’s so funny, but it also feels very authentic. Even though I know it’s reality television and a lot of it’s drummed up and not, you do feel like you are seeing the authentic culture happening in front of you. The people that they pull from are real. They’re not finding people and saying, “If you would be willing to start dressing up in drag, it would be great.” They are who they are.

**John:** Also, having been on the air for so many years, the queens who are competing now grew up with RuPaul’s Drag Race existing, and so they’ve been swimming in this water the entire time. Not just the expectations of performance but also the culture has changed too. In early seasons, contestants who were trans were hiding it, because it felt like that’s cheating to be trans and be on Drag Race. That seems absurd now, but things move pretty quickly.

**Craig:** Things move pretty quickly. I think RuPaul is at the center of it all. Also, he’s 9,000 feet tall. I wanted to go up and say something to him at the Emmys, because he’s at the Emmys every year, because he wins every year. I show up every four years, I guess. Maybe I’ll never show up again. But when I do show up, there’s RuPaul. I’ll tell you why I didn’t go up to him. Can you guess why I didn’t go up to him?

**John:** Intimidation?

**Craig:** Yes. Terrified. Terrified. In looking at the Ronan Farrow article here, I feel vindicated. I think that he would be like, “Get the eff away from me. I don’t know you.” But I would love to. I’m such an admirer of him as a creative force.

**John:** Craig, what do you have for a One Cool Thing?

**Craig:** My One Cool Thing is a game. There’s a company called Glitch Games. I’ve definitely promoted them before on the show. They make escape room, puzzley type point-and-click games for iOS typically. I think it comes out maybe on Android, but who cares. This latest one, I can’t tell if I like it or if I loathe it. I’m putting it out there for people to see what they think.

**John:** It’s a $4 game, so it’s not a huge burden.

**Craig:** It’s a $4 game, so it’s worth the $4 bet. It’s just like their other games in that you’re in a facility and you have to figure out how to get out and there are a lot of puzzles, but the gimmick is that this facility was working on some sort of time loop thing. It’s an increment of time that you can set, I think, between 3 minutes and 10 minutes. It sends you back to the beginning and undoes most of what you’ve done. You solve puzzles. You figure out how to proceed. Then it goes schwoop, you’re back to the beginning, which means you have to re-solve a bunch of puzzles – not hard to do – to get further. I gotta be honest. I found it incredibly frustrating and I quit. But the puzzles are quite good, and I do love their game in general. People who have a little bit more patience than I do may actually really, really appreciate it.

**John:** Recursion.

**Craig:** Give it a shot. Recursion by Glitch Games.

**John:** Give it a shot.

**Craig:** It’s four bucks.

**John:** That was our show for this week.

**Craig:** Yay.

**John:** Scriptnotes is produced by Drew Marquardt-

**Craig:** Woo-woop.

**John:** … and edited by Matthew Chilelli.

**Craig:** Wop-wop.

**John:** Our outro this week is by Eric Pearson. If you have an outro, you can send us a link to ask@johnaugust.com. That’s also a place where you can send questions. You’ll find the show notes to this episode and all episodes at johnaugust.com. That’s also where you’ll find the transcripts and sign up for our weekly newsletter called Inneresting, which has lots of links to things about writing. We have T-shirts and hoodies. They’re great. You’ll find them at Cotton Bureau. You can sign up to become a Premium member at scriptnotes.net, where you get all the back-episodes and Bonus Segments.

Thank you, a little shout-out to our Premium members, because it just keeps growing, which is fantastic. This last year, we were able to not just pay for Matthew and Drew, but we also were able to give some money away. We zero out our balances every year. We were able to give away some money to some really good charities. Thank you very much for our Premium-

**Craig:** You and I also got to buy really nice beach houses.

**John:** That’s what it is. It’s the beach houses plus that. For clarification, we get no money ourselves out of this. It all gets donated away.

**Craig:** Yeah, no beach houses.

**John:** No beach houses for us. But thank you again to our Premium members. Craig, Drew, thanks for a fun show.

**Craig:** Thank you guys.

[Bonus Segment]

**John:** Craig, Drew and I both just watched a documentary series on HBO Max called Love Has Won, which is about a Colorado cult. Drew, you saw it most recently. Tell us what you liked, what freaked you out about it.

**Drew:** Everything freaked me out about it. I always have a terrified feeling that I’m somehow susceptible to cults, even though I’ve never actually run into one. Love Has Won is about the cult of Mother God.

**Craig:** She’s the one where they just left her body in the room?

**Drew:** Exactly. It starts with you seeing the body cam footage of the cops coming in and finding basically her mummified corpse, and then it goes from there.

**John:** Then we go back in time to follow it. But what’s so fascinating about this documentary is – because it’s all very recent, there are still members in that cult right now – they were online all the time. They were also posting YouTube. They have so much footage of just inside the cult while it was just doing this normal stuff. It’s not all recreations or just talking head testimony. It’s a lot of just actual real footage of what it was like being inside this cult.

I love cults. I just think they’re great story fodder, because you have charismatic leaders, you have people who are devoted to it, who are sacrificing other things. There’s that sense of a mission that is so cinematic. There’s something just really appealing to me about cults. I don’t ever want to join one. I don’t want to ever start one. Maybe Scriptnotes is a cult. I don’t know. But I dig them.

**Craig:** We’re the worst cult ever.

**John:** We’re the worst cult. We don’t make any money.

**Craig:** I’m just fascinated by where cult leaders come from. In this case, Amy Carlson, prior to becoming a cult leader, was a manager at a McDonald’s. Being a manager at a McDonald’s is probably very hard to do. But I can’t imagine that there’s a lot of overlap between the skillset required there and running a cult.

**John:** The documentary would actually push back about that, because she was a manager at McDonald’s, but a rising manager. She wasn’t just managing one store. She was moving up the corporate chain a bit.

**Craig:** I see.

**John:** She was able to really motivate her employees in a way that feels like has analogous skills to getting people on your side and following you to believe that you are the incarnation of God.

**Craig:** I see. Do you think that her belief that the Jews wanted everyone to do the work and they would take the money was part of how she got them to do their jobs better? Why is it always the Jews? I don’t know this lady.

**John:** A fair criticism of the documentary, which I think you can look at both ways, is that in trying to really look at the cult from its own perspective and emotionally connect inside the cult, they did leave out a lot of their crazier conspiracy beliefs and their QAnon stuff and all that kind of stuff. They really were focusing on what it felt like personally in there, rather than their bigger belief system. But it’s funny to me how once you believe yourself God, you do look for villains, and funny how they often become Jewish.

**Craig:** I don’t know. I just don’t know. I don’t know why it always happens. I like that their belief is that Adolf Hitler’s intention was to serve the light. I think he was pretty clear about his intentions, actually. I don’t think we have to guess there, do we? He wrote a whole book.

**John:** He did, yeah.

**Craig:** He wrote a whole book.

**John:** Of his struggle. Thinking to cults in general, they’re easy targets for cinematic stories, for villains, because they’re sinister, they have dark motivations. You and I grew up in a time of panic over Satanic cults and these people who were sacrificing babies. That never happens.

**Craig:** That just doesn’t happen.

**John:** It doesn’t. Instead, we have a lot of people who believe themselves to be incarnations of God and to have divine messages, and the people who follow them believe they are doing right for the world. They believe that they alone can save things.

**Craig:** It does seem like the Catholic Church and the Baptist Church and Pentecostal, all the big traditional Christian movements, big ones, do think that there’s a lot of these Devil-worshiping cults out there. And maybe there were in the, I don’t know, 1400s, but now, that’s not a problem.

Every now and then, some town will want to put up some sort of religious thing, and then they’re saying, okay, the court said you have to let every religion do it if they want, and then the local Satanist group shows up, and they’re just a bunch of dorks that like to wear black. They’re always like, “We’re really actually very nice.”

It’s this kind of New Agey baloney. It’s baloney. A lot of baloney about energy, past lives, and all that stuff. And a lot of the things that I think a lot of people believe, but in a perfectly innocuous way, some people take so seriously. That plus the cult of personality leads to these extraordinary situations, where people are so deep in, there’s no way out, because once you start picking at one thread, the whole thing falls apart, and they’re so brutal about you leaving. Once you’re in, you get love bombed, and only they understand you, and only they care about you, and then you’re stuck.

**John:** The obvious reflection is like, what is the difference between a cult and religion? Religion has structure around it that lives on beyond its creator. Obviously, so many of our religions, if you look back in the early phases of them, look a lot like our cults. But I’m curious about secular cults, cults that don’t go for any grand or religious view. They still have to have some perspective on what’s next.

I imagine there will be some kind of AI cults coming up here. Some of our charismatic founders of these corporations are very analogous to cult leaders. People will follow them to the ends of the earth.

**Craig:** Elon Musk feels culty.

**John:** Yeah, it does feel culty. I’ll be curious to see what that looks like. I guess in some way, Elon Musk, there was an expectation like, no, you need to sleep at the factory in order to make sure this all works right. The people who were working for him were not just working for that paycheck. They truly believed in the mission.

**Craig:** Yes. Donald Trump clearly is a cult leader. There’s no way to argue he’s not. That is a cult. They behave in the most cult-like way possible. All of these movements seem to collapse when the cult leader dies. They are ultimately about the person. They cannot exist past it. This woman, Amy Carlson, she dies in 2021, and that’s the end of that.

**John:** Actually, it’s still dribbling on a bit. Her people, they still believe what she believed, but they haven’t all held together.

**Craig:** It’s gonna fall apart. It just doesn’t work. L. Ron Hubbard died pretty early on in Scientology. It was David Miscavige who really continues to be the hub of that wheel. I don’t know how old he is, but one day he won’t be here. He will go the way of all mortal beings, and then we’ll see what happens to Scientology too.

**John:** We’ll see what happens. Did it jump past that initial needing to have the charismatic founder where it can keep going with its own energy? Maybe. But we won’t know until we see.

**Drew:** I feel like LA is lousy with those centering cults though. Scientology is probably the most prominent of that. But there’s the workout cults. There’s all those certain workout gyms. There’s one right now that will give you money off your membership if you get a tattoo of the brand.

**Craig:** That’s disgusting. That’s insane.

**Drew:** Isn’t that crazy?

**Craig:** That’s insane.

**Drew:** All the acting stuff too. Those are all little mini cults.

**John:** Oh, god, yeah.

**Craig:** No question. No question. They’re built around people.

**Drew:** That’s fair. And an idea of better… It’s all that, yeah.

**Craig:** Life improvement?

**Drew:** [Crosstalk 01:17:46].

**Craig:** Yeah, life improvement.

**John:** Exception proving the rule, QAnon, it feels like a cult. There is an entity who’s supposedly Q, but there’s no actual person there. There’s nothing you can point to. Q could be anybody, anything. It feels like it’s now dying down. But I was surprised it was able to be as successful as it was without any visible figurehead there.

**Craig:** There was Q. That’s why the QAnon movement was so pernicious, because there isn’t a single person that you could pick apart and point at as having feet of clay. It was this thing that would just show up, like receiving messages from the sky. It was actually quite brilliant. It’s stupid. It’s floridly stupid. But again, people, once they dig in and they believe it… And it does appear that Q was the son of the guy that owns 8chan or whatever that thing was, and then other people probably posed as it. It’s kind of remarkable how they did a little end-run around having a person be around.

**John:** Getting back to the main episode, how do you make sure the person you’re gonna hire is not actually a cult leader? Check their social media. Do they claim themselves to be God? That’s a red flag.

**Craig:** Do they have a lot of people following them around? If you’re like, “Yeah, we’re thinking about casting you,” and they’re like, “Great. One request is that my entourage of 80 people come with me, and also no one can wear the color blue,” and blah, blah, blah. You’re like, “Oh, no.”

**John:** There are some celebrities who have those entourages. Maybe we have to watch out for them as being cult leaders.

**Craig:** There are celebrities who could, in a second, make a cult. Thank you, Taylor Swift, for having some restraint. If Taylor Swift wanted to install herself as the head of a religious movement, she could, within a day. It would be massive, and it would be serious. Thank you. Once again, I should say, thank you, Taylor Swift.

**John:** Let’s leave it there. Thanks, Craig. Thanks, Drew.

**Craig:** Thanks, guys.

**Drew:** Bye, guys.

Links:

* [Strands](https://www.nytimes.com/games/strands) from the New York Times
* [Anatomy of a Fall – Clip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLqgK_LQKS4)
* [Past Lives by Celine Song](https://deadline.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Past-Lives-Read-The-Screenplay.pdf)
* [Irma Vep – Clip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VY5vfWIjYE)
* [Is This Hollywood’s #MeanToo Moment?](https://slate.com/culture/2024/03/hollywood-me-too-mean-toxic-bullying-tv-film-jonathan-van-ness-ellen-degeneres.html) by David Mack for Slate
* [How to play Dungeons and Dragons for kids](https://everhearthinn.com/articles/how-to-play-dungeons-and-dragons-for-kids/)
* [RuPaul Doesn’t See How That’s Any of Your Business](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/03/11/rupaul-doesnt-see-how-thats-any-of-your-business) by Ronan Farrow for The New Yorker
* [Recursion – Glitch Games](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/recursion/id1658817293)
* [Get a Scriptnotes T-shirt!](https://cottonbureau.com/people/scriptnotes-podcast)
* [Check out the Inneresting Newsletter](https://inneresting.substack.com/)
* [Gift a Scriptnotes Subscription](https://scriptnotes.supportingcast.fm/gifts) or [treat yourself to a premium subscription!](https://scriptnotes.supportingcast.fm/)
* Craig Mazin on [Threads](https://www.threads.net/@clmazin) and [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/clmazin/)
* John August on [Threads](https://www.threads.net/@johnaugust), [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/johnaugust/?hl=en) and [Twitter](https://twitter.com/johnaugust)
* [John on Mastodon](https://mastodon.art/@johnaugust)
* [Outro](http://johnaugust.com/2013/scriptnotes-the-outros) by Eric Pearson ([send us yours!](http://johnaugust.com/2014/outros-needed))
* Scriptnotes is produced by Drew Marquardt and edited by [Matthew Chilelli](https://twitter.com/machelli).

Email us at ask@johnaugust.com

You can download the episode [here](http://traffic.libsyn.com/scriptnotes/635standard.mp3).