The dark tyranny of crickets
Long story, short. Me and a very small group of people spent years working on an animated show for the web.
Funny thing was, once we unveiled it, the reactions, were, well… odd.
We received a few kudos, but the typical reaction was either, a) silence or b) pure unadulterated hate.
It’s hard to tell which was more bizarre. Granted, it was a web show, financed out of our own pockets, but some people seemed to expect Pixar quality animation or something, which was well, kind of weird. Not too many people rip on a video shot on a webcam because it’s not on Hollywood 35mm.
But the general silence and lack of enthusiasm, from even friends and family ranging in age and demographics, is probably stranger. Many people didn’t even bother to give us a polite ‘congrats’ or patronized us with a mere ‘cool’. It’s hard to tell if they even watched it.
I don’t get it. The show doesn’t suck. It’s based on an original concept, yes, but it’s not like some abstract, experimental, avant guard production. Maybe not for everyone, but nothing offensive or inflammatory.
Honestly, it almost feels like people really need to be told what to like, and then it’s ok.
As an industry vet, does any of this sound familiar? I truly believe we have a good show with a great concept.
– Peck
NY, NY
First, let me offer you sympathy and commiseration. I’ve been there. I’ve killed myself writing things that were met with indifference. It sucks.
Over the years, my skin has gotten thick enough to handle most criticism, but there’s no way to prepare yourself for crickets. Creating something is like a pitching a ball. You expect someone to catch it. So when they stand there with their arms crossed, letting it roll on the grass, your frustration is justified.
But where do you focus it?
Do you blame yourself? If I’d just worked a little harder, they would have loved it.
Do you blame your friends? If they’d just been more enthusiastic, and forwarded it to their friends, it could have gone viral.
Do you blame the audience? They’re sheep who won’t embrace anything unless someone else tells them it’s cool.
If you’re like me, you probably cycle through all these blame targets repeatedly.
I don’t have any great advice for what to do with your web show. Switch mediums? Change a major element? Hope it becomes big in Japan? Maybe you made the next Hello Kitty, and just don’t realize it yet.
A few suggestions might point the way going forward on new projects:
Let yourself fall in love again. Once burned, you may be reluctant to fully commit to the next idea. Don’t be. Let yourself get obsessed and passionate. Caution rarely leads to awesome.
Given the choice, fail quickly. This animated project took years, so the emotional cost was very high. If you had been able to make a version of the idea faster, you would have learned whether it was likely to work.
Preselect your superfans. I have a few people who tend to like everything I do. And while I value their insights, I mostly value their praise. Yes Men are fine as long as they’re not the only voices you hear.
Plan your launch as carefully as you plan everything else. As I’ve written about with the struggles of indie films, you have to think about the end of the project right at inception.
Keep in mind, you could take every word of this advice and still face crickets. That’s simply the risk of trying anything creative.
51 Responses to “The dark tyranny of crickets”
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July 27th, 2010 at 12:46 pm
I’d like to watch it, Peck. I dig animation.
July 27th, 2010 at 12:51 pm
I second the comment above. Post a link to your video so we can give it a look.
July 27th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
Peck,
As someone who’s currently working on an animated webtoon myself, I’ll tell you that animation is definitely more of a marketing thing than it is a showcase thing. You have to really work to sell it, mainly because animation tends to be received in a more fickle manner than live-action. Even the hit shows Spongebob, Family Guy, and Adventuretime are disconcerting to people who are used to Disney and Pixar type stuff.
There are animation-based showcase sites out there to submit to (Deviantart and Aniboom are two, plus a third one coming out within the year I know of but can’t mention). There are animation fans that want to see fresh stuff (Cartoonbrew is a good starting point.) Focus now on pushing the webtoon for the internet. John’s 4th piece of advice is especially key for a project like this.
If it’s any consolation, I’d personally want to see your animation.
July 27th, 2010 at 1:01 pm
This happens all the time. Someone spends years killing themselves to make something, they unleash it on the world and then nothing…
It’s partially a marketing issue. Did you ever ask yourself, “Who’s the audience for this?” or “Where can I find them?”
This is part of the reason why AIP used to create posters and titles prior to making the movie was for this very reason… no one wants to hear the crickets.
Maybe this query will breathe new life into your project and it will find its audience. So yes, send us a link.
July 27th, 2010 at 2:06 pm
I am very familiar with the “Don’t they know how much WORK this was?!” scenario that often results from showing one’s work to someone unfamiliar with the process. To you, this is something that represents hundreds (or more) of hours of blood, sweat, and tears; to them, it’s just this thing that they’re reading/watching for a little while, and then they’re going to go update their Facebook or something. It’s natural, when you don’t get the kind of response you want from these people, to adopt a dismissive or condescending attitude. (And by “you,” I mean “me,” since I feel that way all the time.)
Close friends and family will appreciate and be impressed with how much work you put into something. Most people outside of that are just looking to be impressed by the product. If you go in looking for an acknowledgment of what you went through to create your creation, you’re going to be disappointed nine times out of ten. People outside the process just don’t get it. (And people inside the process are your competitors.) You have to wow a general audience with the quality of the work, plain and simple. It doesn’t have to be Pixar-quality animation, but a Pixar-quality story is something you can (and should) legitimately be shooting for.
It’s hard to tell what your creative background is; have you done lots of other writing, and this is just your first foray into animation? Or are you relatively new to both the writing and production sides? You can certainly take the approach that Bill recommends and try to do a better job of marketing it — that never hurt anyone — but it may also be that you just need to chalk this up to experience and move on to the next project, taking with you as many lessons as possible so that you can bring your future work to the next level.
It never ceases to amaze me how much different I feel every time I sit down to work on a new script — it’s like I just brought home a brand-new, state-of-the-art brain and this is the first time I’m taking it for a spin. See if you can put the negative feelings behind you and focus on your own development as an artist.
July 27th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
My first suggestion: charge for it! That shows that you value it and, well, what have you got to loose? Go sign up for the private beta for DynamoPlayer, upload some episodes, set the price at $0.99 and see what happens. http://site.dynamoplayer.com/
My second suggestion: put some eps out on bitTorrent and then rail to the world about how unjust it is that your hard work has been pirated. That might get a buzz going.
My third suggestion: After doing these things, move on. The cure is to create. I try to create for myself. Then, if nobody likes it, at least I enjoyed the process. My web site is littered with my failures, crickets and little successes. But not many people notice.
Peace, Love, Laughter,
Rob:-]
July 27th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
Part of learning how to write is learning how to fail.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:13 pm
Yeah, I’ve been there with the Hearing of the Crickets. Fortunately, I can actually MAKE cricket noises on command – it’s pulled me out of awkward silence on more than one occasion.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:33 pm
Oy, crickets are the worst. Worse than hate, I think. Because hate usually has a reason (legit or not) and it’s usually voiced pretty loudly. And you can feel “good” about hate because, even if it’s the “wrong” reaction, at least you got a rise out of someone! You made them think or feel. And isn’t that what our work is supposed to do?
Crickets, however, are silent, unhelpful, and often awkward.
That said, don’t take it too personally. I find people on the web are often unresponsive until they’ve established a connection with you (like a dialogue, or they’ve been following you for a long time, or a lot of other people comment and they feel comfortable joining in). Maybe solicit a few opinions from good friends? I did that for my ebook, after a year of having no reviews/comments, and just 1 friend’s review got several other strangers to pipe up too!
July 27th, 2010 at 6:15 pm
I’m not going to say anything about “avant guard” except that Jerry Kramer was the best one ever.
Your web thing is no good so far because a lot of people so far said it wasn’t. Find a statistics major who will design and conduct a good survey based on a solid sample. If the survey results say the work sucks, it sucks.
By “sucks”, I mean “it won’t sell”. If you are not trying to sell it you can safely ignore what I’ve said.
July 27th, 2010 at 9:48 pm
Feel your pain. Then again, go watch the doc “Waiting For Hockney,” about a guy who spent 10 years — 10 years! — on one drawing, expecting it would make his career in the art world. You may feel better. You may feel worse. But you won’t feel so alone:
http://www.waitingforhockney.com/
July 27th, 2010 at 10:06 pm
I agree with Kevin up there. You just haven’t found your audience yet. You need to look for people who are kind of familiar with cartoons other than the Disney/Pixar stuff. Marketing is everything. Don’t give up on this just yet!
July 28th, 2010 at 12:22 am
What Jason said. If everyone doesn’t like it or doesn’t get it or just doesn’t care – that means something. Listen to the crickets. Friends and family are an easy crowd – and if they aren’t excited (or pretend to be) by it, something is wrong.
The first thing to do is acknowledge that it doesn’t work – that you have failed… and then go on to the next thing. Try to figure out why it didn’t work so that you can at least learn something and not make the same mistake again.
I like to test my stories before I write the script. I worked for a decade driving a forklift, and keep in touch with my co-workers – actual ticket buyers. I’ll tell them I saw a premiere of a new movies starring Luke Wilson (used to be Matthew Modine) and then pitch my story. If they are excited and can’t wait to see it, I’ve got a winner. If they say they’ll wait for DVD, well… If they say they’ll skip it (crickets), um… You get an idea of whether your story works or not ahead of time, and fix the story or decide not to write it or decide to write it even though everyone’s still gonna hate it.
Good luck.
July 28th, 2010 at 4:05 am
I’d compare it to spec screenwriting. You write a script on speculation, trying to find somebody who likes and hopefully buys your script. But what you’re actually doing in the first place is writing for yourself. I think the same goes for your animation. What’s clear before you start is that there’re always people who like it and some who don’t like it. So what’s so bad about it? Tastes are different. First of all, try to make yourself clear that you make those animations for yourself first. If you do the mistake and adapt your story / animation to your audience’s taste, you’ll fail from the start — because once again: tastes are different, and that’s good point to keep in mind.
I studied filmmaking + animation and would love to see your films, too, Peck.
July 28th, 2010 at 8:15 am
Hey, it sounds like you showed to some folks and either got no praise or such nothing that you have no sense that they even watched it. I feel your disappointment and credit you with looking for a solution to the issue of little/negative response.
So here’s a suggestion that it doesn’t sound like you exercised, nor did it get suggested in the comments: how about ASKING the people to whom you showed your work what they thought? I know that’s scary, because if they’re truly honest, you may not like the answer, but it seems like you don’t have a clear sense of WHAT they even thought, and that you are just guessing based on their low affect reactions …
Further, and I’ve done this with short films and scripts, make up a response card–list five or ten questions, about character, plot, quality of the animation, etc., and ask your friends and family to complete the cards.
And you worked too hard on this to just lick your wounds now. Set up a whole test screening with cards–tell people to be honest–and ask them hard questions, and listen to them actually tell you what works and what doesn’t.
Of course, you don’t have to take their advice, or heed their criticism, but at least it will let you know what people are or aren’t reacting to. Sounds like you’re in the dark about that, and the only thing worse than crickets is not knowing why they’re chirping …
Good luck, and kudos to you for being brave. Now be even braver and go back and find out what people are thinking, then decide what’s worthwhile about their reactions ….
We’re all rooting for you!
July 28th, 2010 at 8:47 am
As you can see, a lot of us have been there, Peck. And there is a lot of good advice here alreay on handling the situation. My advice (to add to everything else) is to try to get it out to as many people as possible.
I wrote a novella and wanted to get it out to family and friends and it seemed no one would read it or they would just dismiss it after the first chapter, saying its not their style or they usually don’t like that genre or whatever. But I had also sent it to some co-workers and a few (that actually read it) absolutely loved it. One of them said he was surprised that he like it because it isn’t a genre he usually likes.
Basically, get it out as much as you can (via the internet or any other means others have suggested) becuase you never know who your ’super fans’ are going to be.
Also, try to ’sell’ it to people as well. With family and friends, you have to convince them to try it. Like “Do it for the sake of trying something new.” or “It’s only 10 min, not a 3 hour epic.” Find out why these people you know are not watching it and ’sell’ them on it.
And I’d like to watch it too… so post a link if you can.
July 28th, 2010 at 8:57 am
I’ve run headlong into swarms of crickets plenty of times. And I usually have the same “what’s wrong with these talking monkeys?” reaction that many others do. Then, I put the work aside and move onto something else. Sometimes, after a significant time has passed, I’ll go look at the work again. And, more often than not (and when I’m really honest with myself), it turns out the work wasn’t that great. No, it didn’t suck, but it wasn’t great. Who knows, some time from now you may go back to look at your work and find yourself grateful to your friends and their “patronizing” responses.
July 28th, 2010 at 10:34 am
Peck, Quit whining. The world doesn’t owe you anything. If you want people to slap you on the back and tell you how brilliant you are every time you put something in front of them then become an accountant. If you want people’s honest reaction to your creations then be prepared for what you get. Or get out of the artistic world altogether. It’s a world of subjectivity. Yeah, it stings when people just don’t see your (assumed) brilliance. But guess what, you’re not looking at your work from an objective point of view, their perspective. They see the finished product, not the work that went into it. All your hard work is irrelevant to the audience, the consumer. They care about one thing: does it entertain them. It’s obvious from your comments that you just want people to tell you how brilliant you are. There are millions of people out there just as brilliant, or more so. If you really believe in your work don’t whine about your family and friends’ perceived lack of enthusiasm. Just keep creating and when you finally make something that truly does get a good reaction from these people then you’ll know it’s sincere. Or at least a step in the right direction.
July 28th, 2010 at 11:12 am
When I was in art school, pretty much every professor I had told me that the amount of effort an artist puts into a piece does not, and should not, matter to the viewer. Certain pieces are simple, quick, effective and even great. Other pieces take years to complete for similar results. I found this to be true when I worked as an software engineer in computer graphics and in the computer game business. It always hurts when I get little or no reaction to what I’ve created. To reduce the emotional impact, I’ve learned to enjoy the process of creation itself. To deal with the practical impact of not making money on what I’ve created, I’ve learned to generate a lot of ideas that I love and try them out on people before selecting one to develop. I’m always surprised by what concepts interest other people. Then, I keep rechecking as I develop to make sure it’s still what I love and what they like. This checking also helps me understand if the piece sets audience expectations that it can deliver.
July 28th, 2010 at 12:26 pm
Maybe this is unadulterated idealism – or just stupid – but your message is precisely why I try my hardest to imbue everything I write with a strong point-of-view, with something I believe in. Even if it’s a farts n’poop web-clip (not saying yours was), I want it to say something…and that has always been comforting. Because if I am COMPELLED to write something, the oft-inevitable criticism is less relevant. In other words, I would have created it regardless of how it was received. It was a thing I did for myself, not for any other reason. Do I sometimes wish these things would be adored (and sell!)…HELL YES. But I have always believed that finishing the “thing,” and the expression, ARE the objectives. Some of those things take two weeks, some of them take a lifetime…but the completion IS the reward.
Now if you’ll excuse me, my ramen is getting cold.
July 28th, 2010 at 11:04 pm
Not coming from a warm climate, I hear a cold wind whistling, then a bell tolls in the distance… Yeah it’s painful. I’ve got a short on vimeo with 50 views and at least twenty of those are my own. But as other commentators have said, you have to take what YOU got out of the process, not what others did. Move on, take the lessons both positive and negative, and apply them to the next project. Build up a body of work instead of hoping for one piece to gain attention. Better to screw up when nobody’s looking. Because with all the success in the world it’s not going to get any easier. Expectations are raised when you step up a level.
July 29th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
@John August: Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my question. You’re totally right, ‘crickets’ are not the kind of response (or failure response) I think anyone can prepare for. Sure, we expected some people to hate it (there always are) but general indifference can feel so much worse.
Hearing your perspective is a bit comforting. This project was a draining experience, that we didn’t anticipate would drag on for so long, but we were determined to finish it. It was rewarding, yes, but for more reasons than I care to go into, we didn’t embark on this journey as a mere hobby.
It’s a dizzying few days after you realize you hit the point of ‘failure’. On a previous, more amateur, but similar kind of a project a few years back, we were really successful and thought we could follow that path, but the terrain has apparently changed.
@Everyone: Thanks for your support and your positive words.
We’re not giving up. We’re gonna ‘re-launch’ next month with more outlets and in HD video. We think part of the problem could’ve been our trailer which might’ve been a bit misleading to the true nature of the show, so we’ll do a new one. We were trying to keep from spoiling it all. It could also be the timing of our release was off. Or maybe the show just won’t resonate with people the way we thought it would…
Anyway, for those interested, it’s an action/comedy pilot episode, with the premise of a group online gamers getting lost in a life-or-death struggle to stop a hacker trying to destroy the internet, by assaulting different online game worlds. It takes place entirely in-game(s). People familiar with videogames will probably appreciate it more.
Here’s the trailer, which gives a link to the full episode (free to watch):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD5W9aKMMGI
Feel free to share any thoughts, positive or negative.
@Sarah: Re: People speaking up. That’s the part that’s baffling to me. It almost feels like elementary school where no one wants to participate in class, because they are afraid of ridicule or something unless someone else speaks up first, and then it’s ok.
@Dave in DC: Re: Hockney. That does look fascinating. I definitely want to check that out. It’s kind of like a dark side of the creative process, that rarely gets mentioned. How much time and passion is enough to validate the effort? That’s something I don’t know can ever be quantified, although I wish I knew.
@Will Shakes: Tough love. Thanks. It’s hard to make what anyone thinks of you when nobody says anything. It’s also hard to improve. Tell me it sucks, but also, tell me why.
July 29th, 2010 at 2:11 pm
This is excellent advice, and advice too rarely given.
July 29th, 2010 at 11:19 pm
@Peck I experienced it a million times in school. Well, I was the student who rather spoke up than kept my mouth shut… I just had to get the answer out, whether it was right or wrong – mostly and thank God it was right : ) But I had a dozen of classmates, who were really smart, but stupid enough to keep their mouths shut as they were afraid to say the wrong answer or they simply thought “The teacher won’t see me anyway.” I mean, what kind of an excuse is that? Eventually, one girl I now for example, who was an actual A-grader in Biology only received a C on her report card, because she was too quiet. — I’m glad you mentioned it, Peck. That’s a good metaphor for art, criticism and the longing for attention.
July 30th, 2010 at 1:02 am
Ooof! I just watched the first episode… I spotted two jokes, both revolving around the gamers’ IRL versus in-game persona. Neither made me laugh. In eight minutes. Otherwise it was watching other people playing a video game, for eight minutes. Comedy is hard, but you had eight minutes…. Eight minutes to wonder where this was going… Eight minutes to tell us who your characters are… Eight minutes to undercut all the clichés… You didn’t use it.
And after eight minutes you get to the end of the episode, or if you were watching a movie, the inciting incident. So by that rule of thumb, this tale feels like it’s going to be feature length. A wide yawning gulf when I was already fidgeting over that eight minutes.
Happily I’ve watched the trailer, so I know that’s when it gets interesting. WOW vs Halo, Metal Gear Solid vs Call of Duty, Bear vs Shark, an eternal geek argument. Only yesterday I found a forum arguing over Modern US Army vs Nazi Blitzkrieg. So why oh why doesn’t this happen in the first three minutes of the first episode?
The good news is that you have plenty of footage to condense into a barnstorming intro, and I would suggest cutting the the rest in a similar fashion, if only as an exercise. And yes it’s painful, all that time and energy chopped down to the space between TV advertising breaks. But as you’ve realised, nobody really cares how long it took.
However you’ve proved you can put in the hard work. So many fall at that first hurdle, you’re already ahead of the pack.
As a side note, why not Machinima?
July 30th, 2010 at 1:28 am
Okay I misspoke, I limited my criticism to the first clip, not the entire episode.
July 30th, 2010 at 7:55 am
@Sarah: You sound a lot braver in school than I ever was ;).
@Charley: Thanks for watching. The entire first episode totals 27-minutes, so you are correct, the first 8 minutes is more or less the inciting incident.
A question, do play videogames, especially online? I only ask, because I admit the show’s first part caters more towards that audience in the first part or so. A kind of re-creation of when everything goes wrong at every turn, as random strangers awkwardly struggle to just maintain some sort of dignity after a while against a seemingly impossible force.
Starting in Part 2, I feel it opens up to a more traditional format. But I understand how this may be a bit of a hurdle due to how it’s structured, and perhaps needs some work.
Either way, I’d like to know where you stand to try to gauge where the disconnect is coming from.
Re: Machinima. Using Machinima presents a number of problems for the show we want to do. The show’s premise is pretty much based on jumping into a new game(s) every episode. So that would entail a lot of new and diverse environments and characters each episode, which, I guess, unless you hack a game engine and are able to put in custom assets, is something you really can’t get from a single game. Same thing goes for needing custom art, animations, or certain kinds of shots (like a bullet going through 3 people’s heads from the bullet’s POV).
I know we were somewhat limited by our own capabilities in terms of animation, but I’d like to think that having complete control over what we could do, benefited the project, and allowed us to do create what we needed.
July 30th, 2010 at 9:04 am
@Peck:
Good for you for finishing what you started and putting your work/yourself out there to get feedback. Doing either isn’t easy. For my 2 cents, the animation was decent. I can’t draw so I appreciate it whenever someone else can. It felt true to the world you were striving to establish in terms of video games.
However, I feel I know about story and characters and yours lacks development of both. It also has immature humor that comes off as highly amateur. Aside from the video game ‘homage’, I had no idea what I was watching and it certainly wasn’t in the vein of the trailer, IMO. You need to give people a reason to keep watching and you didn’t do that for me.
If your logic is ‘you need to know the gaming world’ then it’s not a good one. I’m not a gamer, but you could’ve still enticed me by setting up both story and character in an intriguing way to compel me to watch more, want to learn more and understand what was happening and why. Was “Seinfeld” just for NY comedians? Is “Sons of Anarchy” just for MC members? No. They established a family, conflicts from opposing points-of-view, emotional truths stemming from well-established characters. With the video medium, you have to establish your world and those that inhabit it very quickly. Your jokes are just 1-liners that are from out of nowhere because you didn’t set up story and character. See a theme here? Having a guy say something in a high-pitched voice isn’t funny if you haven’t done the work beforehand. In many writers’ rooms, you get the question, “Why is it funny?” An answer of, “Because it is.” doesn’t cut it. Words like ‘real’ and ‘honest’ are often at the core of the right answer. To paraphrase Larry David, “I don’t write jokes. I write characters in funny situations.” Work on that.
IMO, it needs a lot more than just some editing work. You wanted feedback so there it is. Don’t get defensive. Filter it, run with it and make it better. Or, get to work on the next project using what you get from this forum to make the best product you possibly can. Getting up and dusting yourself off is a big part of the creative world. Best of luck to you.
July 30th, 2010 at 10:07 am
@DJE
Thanks for your thoughts.
I honestly think if you’ve spent any time in an online gaming environment, you might appreciate it more. Some of these situations and characters would feel more familiar and relatable. For example, the guy with the funny voice talks that way because he’s a young kid (10 years old, and explained later on, if you didn’t catch it immediately).
To me, this was funny because this is real and what happens online. So is a guy arguing with his wife about ‘doing the dishes,’ while in the middle of hunting for ‘terrorists’, or someone murdering his own teammates because they’re talking about dog food in a firefight.
Is this an excuse for a general audience? No. I do believe that the show becomes less strictly a gaming experience dependent affair as time goes on, but maybe it needs to be a bit more GA-friendly earlier.
I do appreciate hearing and your thoughts and feedback. I really don’t mind sincere criticism. Even though, I felt a need to directly answer some of it, I understand this was your reaction and what you ended up getting out of viewing, and we didn’t succeed with you, so that’s on us.
If you don’t mind, I would like to know how much of the show did you watch?
July 30th, 2010 at 11:42 am
@Peck:
“I honestly think if you’ve spent any time in an online gaming environment, you might appreciate it more.”
Sure, that’s fine — I know “The Guild” and “Red vs. Blue” have both been huge successes even though they’re targeted squarely at the gaming community, and there are probably many other examples I don’t know about. I just haven’t watched either of those because I assume I wouldn’t get the humor. And I didn’t get the humor in your piece, either (at least not for the first couple minutes, which is all I had time to watch), probably because I haven’t done much gaming in the last decade.
So I think your problem is that you want this to work for a general audience, but your real target audience is gamers. Why not look for ways to get more gamers to watch it, then, instead of looking for feedback from people who you already know aren’t going to appreciate it as much?
July 30th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
@Nick:
Well that’s the thing. There were a few friends who are gamers that were sincerely positive.
There’s also a number gamer friends with similar tastes who pretty much never said a word after we sent it to them. One of the things that inspired my letter to John.
We also tried to directly appeal to a number of gamers on web boards and blogs, and the response has been mostly ‘crickets’ and in some cases strange hate. In one case there was one person who told us how bad it was and then admitted to never watching it. I don’t really get viciously hating on someone who’s trying to entertain you for free, but I guess that’s the internet…
Most of the time, we’d openly post on a gaming forum, and the post would get several hundred views, and then one or two people might comment, even after asking people for feedback. Sometimes no one would comment. The youtube trailer currently has several hundred more views than views of part 1, so maybe the trailer’s turning people off? In the end, we’re left guessing what went wrong with even our ‘target’ audience.
July 30th, 2010 at 5:53 pm
Hum. First, the crickets issue. I concur with pretty much everything above. And John’s reply is right on, every point.
Re: The work itself, since you asked for feedback, I think the premise is actually really good… Gamers jump servers and commandos end up in Fantasy game (I only watched the trailer, so if that’s not the whole series, color me under-informed).
And I thought some of the writing was funny… I saw more jokes than just two… but again, that’s in the trailer.
And as much of a fan as I am of Pixar, I’m also a big fan of Chowder, FlapJack and Jake and Finn. So the un-refined style and simple multi-plane anim isn’t a drawback for me necessarily.
But what didn’t work for me was the voice acting, and in particular the framing. Compositions were just kind of jumbled and overly complicated, making it hard to visually follow and understand action.
However, again, I may not be your target. It may resonate with others. So take it for what it’s worth to ya. I still give you kudos for sticking it out, staying committed, and getting it done. I hope you figure out what your target audience is really thinking, are able to make any necessary adjustments, and find a way to get your work in front of the right demographic.
In future, I’d opt for failing fast, getting early feedback from honest viewers, and modding on the run.
July 30th, 2010 at 7:55 pm
Everything JA mentioned is on spot. You’re gonna have disagree / agree.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve watched over and over some very classic and powerful film noir…that is not DOUBLE INDEMINITY, or anything done by Billy Wilder.
At all.
And when friends in and out of the business watch the same movie, they just don’t feel the power I do.
Does that mean such a film was just bad? No. Not even close.
Animation, like comedy, to me at least…has got to be tough to do. All out, more than any other genre.
I’ll watch the old time Bugs Bunny from the 40s day and night, as well as the last few years of FAMILY GUY.
I get a kick out of a lot of the Japanese anime. But the bulk of the animation done now…just doesn’t get me laughing. At all.
You gave it your best shot on this project. And the crickets just did their thing. Take a long look at this last thing. Long and critical. Over and over. And get onto the next.
Good luck.
Write on, right on.
MARK11
July 30th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
If you design a dress, intended for a model, then put it on a sow and send the pig trotting down the runway, most people are going to see the pig and notice little about the dress except for the fact that it’s on a pig.
In your case, the animation was the pig. It was so bad, it was hard to think about anything else.
July 30th, 2010 at 11:45 pm
Peck,
I appreciate the effort that must have gone into this and I know how hard it is to build enthusiasm for independent projects but I think you need to be a harsher critic of your own work.
Detach from the idealized version you’ve seen in your head and watch what you’re asking us to watch.
I think it’s a big step that you’ve opened yourself up for constructive criticism, absorb rather than deflect it. Listen to what people offer and invite more, don’t defend your creative decisions or shrug off any feedback because someone isn’t in your target demographic. Think about what changes would make this person enjoy your story more, what surprises and turns would draw them into your world.
A good story will draw people into the subject.
July 31st, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Peck,
I agree with most of the above posts and I think it’s great that you’ve looked for criticism outside your intended audience. As someone who has been online gaming since Quake and was a paid subscriber to season one of Red vs Blue, I think I may understand the humor you were going for. I watched part one and then the trailer, but I honestly thought it was terrible and incredibly derivative.
Maybe it gets better in parts 2-4, but if it wasn’t for the post here I wouldn’t have gone past the first 20 seconds. As Pat Race mentioned, I agree that you need to be a harsher critic of your own work. If you can’t honestly realize where the shortfalls of your production are, how can you expect to improve upon them for your next one?
It’s very ambitious to create 27 minutes of animated entertainment and commend you for finishing it. Judging from your email to JA and your website, it looks like you were hoping to earn some income from this venture. I would suggest taking a page from RvB and start with self contained smaller episodes (under 5 minutes) to gauge the reaction from people and if you have a collection of favorable episodes, then put those out on a DVD. RvB didn’t launch episode one with T-shirts, DVDs, and soundtrack ready to go.
August 2nd, 2010 at 6:28 am
@Everyone
Thanks for all the feedback.
This has been more helpful than the ‘crickets’ for sure.
August 2nd, 2010 at 8:35 pm
Hi Peck
Congratulations on sticking with it and getting the job done.
I liked the concept and I’m not into video games at all. I like the idea of crossed worlds and the chaos that can come from that. And I really like the 10-year old boy. Great idea: people pretend to be who they’re not. So you had me interested with the trailer, and even though I don’t play these games, I got the fundamentals.
I could only get three minutes into the first episode before I lost interest. Nothing happens. I didn’t watch anymore. I’m going to tell you something you already know: people — especially people watching videos online — have very the attention span of housefly. You didn’t succeed in grabbing my interest enough for me to want to keep watching. That’s a challenge for all of us.
Like any project though, you probably need a few weeks away from it before you can decide what to do next.
You’ve got a lot to be proud of. You’ve produced something, which is more than many critics can say. No matter what happens with it, I’m sure you’ve already learned a lot. You’ve taken many steps forward, so relax, reflect, be proud. And then decide what you want to do next.
Keep going!
August 3rd, 2010 at 9:51 am
@RAH Thanks! Yes, we’ve learned a bit over the past month or so. Again, getting feedback here, even if from some people who aren’t our ‘target’ audience has helped.
It’s given us some hope that we can make some tweaks and edits to better hold the audience’s interest and improve the flow of the show.
August 3rd, 2010 at 1:14 pm
I only saw the trailer, so I can only comment on that, but I think you might consider:
Slowing down the character meet and greet. Even though it’s the trailer, it’s still got to follow a story arc to be comprehensible. For example, I would show a short clip of each important character in their happy life. Then the big “Oh Shit!” moment. Then, when they’re in the game, show their (the characters from the intro clips) reactions. And end on a question, i.e. how will we get back? (or whatever would be appropriate for your show–if fighting in-game is really important, they could be shocked for a second, be ambushed, and then ask the question–whatever you think would be most true to the conflict you see carrying the show. As long as it’s clear, simple, and there’s only one in-game conflict going on at that point). You don’t need to show every conflict they’ll come across (the age/mask issue, different fighting styles, etc)–just one, to get us to watch. There just isn’t enough space/time in the trailer for more–which is why you made the show :). I would also suggest adding narration, to make it even clearer. You’ve got a LOT of information to impart (the basics of multiple characters, their world, and the types conflicts they’ll face for infinite amounts of time) and only a couple minutes to do it, so anything you can do to make things streamlined and clear is worth considering, in my opinion :).
Also, you might want to think about composition and what images you want to be “iconic” for your show. The beginning and ending image of each clip needs to hammer in the point of that clip, and it needs to look good, because that’s what’s going to stay in people’s minds–I don’t mean it has to look “impressive”–just that you want it to be well-composed, clear in its message, and potentially iconic. The type of image you’d like to put on a poster advertising your show. If you’re not sure about composition, that’s something I would definitely read up on. It takes a long time to get a feel for it, but it will improve the quality of your work exponentially, and without you having to invest another cent :)
Again, that was just w/r/t the trailer, though hopefully those thoughts could be helpful with your episode, too? Also, one little note–some of the characters you introduce us to, you then show dying horrible deaths in throwaway moments at the end of the trailer. Personally, I found that horrifying. I’m not a gamer, and maybe that’s funny for someone used to having lots of video game lives, etc. But to introduce us to a cute little wizard guy and then pump him full of bullets in the last few seconds just felt really twisted to me–and that’s the kind of thing that kept me from wanting to watch the episode, lol. (My biggest problems were with that, the jumbled frames, and the lack of a coherent story or cast of characters).
August 3rd, 2010 at 4:48 pm
Hi,
I too want to applaud your efforts. I’m in the middle of trying to finish a project that has become…I don’t even want to get into it, suffice to say that I’m impressed with your ability to power on through. I’m also impressed with the community of commenters, all of whom are willing to watch at least part of your work and offer feedback.
That said:
I watched the trailer. And it was difficult to get through. The animation, editing, and especially the sound all seem to be a bit rough. (Rough animation can be funny, if used well (witness: first few seasons of south park); rough sound…not so much.) I hate dealing with sound, but I can’t deny how much of an effect it has. I also hate that no one is ever exposed to anything but high level finished product, so standards are….really high. But such is life. You really, really, really need to clean up the sound.
Aside from these technical issues…what the hell did I just watch? Before you ask: no, I’m not a gamer. So what? If there’s a compelling story, there’s a compelling story. People make movies or features or animated shorts or whatever about specialized worlds all the time, and often that’s half the fun of the movie or show — learning about this alternative world. But the STORY still works, and stories about the human condition tend to be universal (assuming we’re all human), so that’s how we get sucked into these alternative worlds. That’s the key. I know nothing about football, and find fantasy leagues incredibly annoying in real life, but I love – LOVE – The League. Ditto Red v. Blue. And I’ve played Halo twice and both times I was bored.
From your trailer I was able to glean…nothing. Nothing about a story. No sense of what this is about, of who any of the characters are, besides the one dude who says he’s a 10 year old (and honestly, it might be a favorite line, but it’s not a new one), what their relationships are to each other, what goals anyone what might have… it just felt like a bunch of unrelated lines edited together with some music.
I know that’s not what you wanted to hear. But I think it might be worth pointing out that even gamers might not want to see themselves reflected so exactly, without any overall narrative structure. I mean…real life isn’t compelling. It’s why we have narrative structure, why reality tv is scripted, etc. And it’s not to say that your show doesn’t have these things — I haven’t watched a full episode, so I can’t say — but I can absolutely say that your trailer didn’t give any indication that it does.
Having read through most of the comments, you seem to be politely sticking by the “gamers would get it more” thing, and I don’t think I can emphasize enough how unhelpful and, ultimately, wrong I think that is. If it’s a good story worth telling and well told, everyone will get it, even if we don’t get all the references. To a certain extent, people react to inside jokes just bc they like being identified as members of a group; that’s not a genuine reaction to content, that’s a reaction to a shout out. You’ll know you have something when non-gamers react.
I’m reading over this and it sounds harsh, which I don’t like, but it’s also all true / honest reaction, so I’m not sure reworking it will necessarily be helpful to you, so…I dunno. Yeah. Good luck — I do think you should keep plugging.
August 4th, 2010 at 7:36 am
@Sasha Re: The trailer. When we originally did the trailer, we were hoping to kind of keep from spoiling the whole show. A typical movie trailer is about 2 – 2 1/2 minutes (more or less), so we tried to improvise a little since we had less than 30 minutes of content.
Unfortunately, it’s becoming clear it didn’t do the job and in some cases misleads people into thinking the main characters are locked into one world (whereas the setup will typically be a new one every episode). We tried to include some quick images outside of the fantasy world as clues, but they seem to get missed.
I’m glad for your comments because a lot of your suggestions reflect what we’re working on for a new trailer. Better explanation of the story, title narration, better sense of characters.
I always hate it when a trailer spoils the best parts of a movie, so that I find myself piecing it together as a watch it, and that sense of surprise or discovery is often ruined. But the flipside of people misunderstanding or failing losing the audience’s attention is worse.
Re: The kills in the trailer. Haha, sorry for horrifying you! It kind of comes with the online territory (as some real games are probably 10x’s gruesome). If it helps, it’s all ‘virtual,’ so no one was really killed.
@cb11235813 From my comments above, it’s probably should be clear about how we originally approached the trailer and why it doesn’t seem to work for most people.
Re: Sound. We’ve only heard a few people have issues with this. Is there any particular aspect of the sound, dialogue/fx/music, or overall, that was the issue? The dialogue is admittedly a little rough to simulate the online ‘experience’, but perhaps something the audience doesn’t really need.
Anyway, best of luck on finishing your project and finding success!
August 4th, 2010 at 7:43 am
Peck
Late to this, but I believe most commenters mentioned a good amount of heavy advice that you should consider. I watched the trailer and first 8 minutes. I am a gamer, so I got the jokes, but I would say instead of aiming for gamer gags for the sake of gamer’s gags, try connecting them to the cartoon’s narrative.
I liked the early reveal, of a war-like scene that’s followed by the names on the characters, revealing it’s a game. At that point, though, I recommend finding a core character for the audience to follow. He/she should attempt to ‘lead’ the group to go against the terrorist, only to be thwarted by the various character quirks of the team (the age thing, the guy bitching about dogs, game interruptions, etc.)
The key is to take that slow and make it clear. A montage will help; plus it’ll cut down on time. The center character, the team leader let’s say, gives someone the audience can follow (gamers or not) and through him, understand the frustration and, I suppose, ultimate stakes of the situation.
Here, think less is more. The idea is there, the execution is lacking. Good luck!
August 4th, 2010 at 8:20 am
Years ago, I got some pretty good advice from a screenwriting teacher. He said that when asking for feedback, he told people he didn’t want to know whether they liked it or not (he said this is usually obvious anyway, and my limited experience has confirmed this) but just about what were the main things they thought that didn’t work or were unclear. I’ve found this is a good way to go, because worst case scenario is you get actual useful feedback, and if you don’t ask, even when someone likes your script you tend to get vaguely positive gobbledlygook rather than information about where your script could be improved.
However, this doesn’t really speak to the problem of working on a project for a long time and getting the crickets. I’ve been there, it sucks, and in the end all I could take from it was that I knew I was a better writer for the experience of working on it even if this project didn’t connect. Happens to the best of us – Kubrick got a largely indifferent reaction to his first film and later tried to burn every existing print.
I guess we’ve all gotta just keep hacking away… good luck.
and happy birthday, John!
August 4th, 2010 at 8:43 am
Hey Peck,
WRT sound/fx stuff: it’s tough, as I’m currently dealing with the same stuff myself, w/o any actual experience or instruction. (Esp since I filmed during summer in nyc, so my wild sounds all have some combination of siren, ice cream truck, car alarm, car stereo, cracked fire hydrant, or police helicopter in the background. Also, planes. Wheee!) But. It sounds….fuzzy. Like the signal to noise ratio sucks. And the cuts are kind of harsh. My ear isn’t good or experienced enough to be able to give you a bunch of details on what pops where and why, other than to say it’s unpleasant when played through my brand new imac speakers and painful when played through the ridiculous headphones I just bought. It sounds like it hasn’t really been mixed — different lines come in at different audio levels, forcing your ear to constantly adjust; ditto with clarity. And there doesn’t seem to be any crossfading, which will inevitably jolt the audience out of the narrative.
What did you use to record / mix it? Not that I’ll really be able to help, as I’m just getting into soundtrack pro (altho the audio tools in FCP have been fairly decent so far, and can help w all the things I mentioned, especially since you prob recorded everything in a room / booth).
I don’t have a problem w the animation – as I mentioned, that can be played to your advantage, as a stylistic choice. But you have to figure out how — what’s funny about it? What’s frustrating when you’re playing a game? etc.
The editing also needs some work, and from my personal experience, I’d suggest walking away from it for a little while. Personally, I hate editing. HATE. I am not a details person (except when it comes to writing, for some unknown reason), and the idea that a single frame might make the difference in whether or not a joke kills or falls flat drives. Me. Crazy. But it doesn’t stop it from being true. And, unfortunately, I think the only thing that helps is to keep working at it, with sufficient breaks so that you can really see what you’ve done on the last pass. (Even in the opening to the trailer, which seemed the most accomplished, there seemed to be some issues of timing. Again, it might just be a few frames, but timing is everything. How much does that suck? I honestly hate editing.)
FWIW, the thing I’m editing right now is also a comedy (sort of). I feel your pain. Editing comedy is really, really tough. I’ve been told it’s just an experience thing, so…keep going, I guess. Just know it’s apparently supposed to be really hard.
August 4th, 2010 at 8:51 am
Oh, also: sound is not something I knew I noticed until I actually had to try to create / deal with it and had developed a rudimentary language for it. That doesn’t mean I didn’t notice it before, just that I didn’t know what it was I didn’t like. I think the appropriate analogy is women and makeup: I’ve heard many (straight) men claim they don’t notice if a woman is wearing makeup, but oh my, they absolutely do. They don’t know what exactly they’re responding to, but they definitely know they’re responding. I’ve never heard that from women, since most women have at least had one experience of wearing (or being made to wear) makeup.
Now that I read that aloud it sounds stupid. But I think the point is still valid. When the sound is off, even if you don’t know to listen for it, everything is off. And improperly mixed sound just gives an amateurish vibe, which cues each successive response.
I think the biggest problems are by far the narrative stuff I mentioned earlier, but in my experience, nobody pays attention if they think it’s an amateur production because of either sound design (or lack thereof) or poor editing. Like I said, standards are really, really unforgiving.
Also, I just discovered filmsound.org . Haven’t had a chance to delve in yet, so I don’t know if it’s really that good, but they seem to have a lot of stuff from Walter Murch, so can’t be that bad.
August 4th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
I know it’s off-topic, but… HAPPY BIRTHDAY, JOHN!!! :)
August 4th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
I can understand the crickets. I’ll explain later. First though, don’t give up, you will only get better. Most people here are being overly supportive and only pointing out the good. You know what’s good, you want to improve so you need to hear the bad too.
I second the sound comment. It sounds like you recorded the voices on a cheap pc microphone and it detracts from everything else.
The drawing is good, some of the scenes look very interesting, the characters as well. They are a bit rough, but that’s not a big deal.
The animation though, is rough, very rough. I understand that it’s flash animation, but that doesn’t mean it has to be poor animation. Movement and timing aren’t things you can simply ignore because you believe you have some decent jokes. You’ve got slidey feet on the walks, and they all look the same, and you simply re-use the cut-outs of characters and just bob them around instead of looking at different poses or exaggeration.
The crickets are because this is fairly poorly done and people don’t want to hurt your feelings when you spent so much time on it.
I’m not saying it’s bad, I thought it was okay. Definitely on par with some of the other things you might find on newgrounds or someplace similar.
BUT, animation and writing are hard work, you have to learn and work at them. Check out “The animator’s survival kit.”, “Illusion of Life”, “Drawn to Life”, etc. for some information on the animation portion, there are quite a few other good books and video series as well, but those will get you started.
Just because you can re-use a character you’ve already drawn for the entire movie, doesn’t mean that you should. People move and twist and bend, the way this is animated now you could have merely printed out each character and put them on popsicle sticks and shook them around.
The reason the southpark characters work well with this type of animation is because they are simple. They don’t have the bends and twists and intricacies that your characters do, they are squares and circles, but even they have different views (i.e. side, front, back, etc.).
Also, one last thing I noticed is that although you might move a torso, or arm, it’s one solid object that moves, but people have some elasticity. Even when the characters talk, they have a mouth that is completely contained within their head instead of having a jaw and chin that dips slightly, and most importantly, NOBODY MOVES, everybody is constantly in a pose and doesn’t waiver from that one, solid, dead pose.
Like I said earlier though, it’s not bad, but it’s not very good either. You will get better if you practice and learn, and it is definitely worth practicing and learning, you’ve got some good skills, but they need polishing.
August 4th, 2010 at 8:11 pm
Okay, saying it “doesn’t suck” because it’s “not like some abstract, experimental, avant guard production” and “nothing offensive or inflammatory,” makes it sound like it’s going to be bland. You didn’t say what makes you excited about the cartoon or why you made it.
To be honest, something avant-garde or inflammatory probably would get a stronger reaction, even if it were a negative reaction.
Also, “a typical movie trailer is about 2 – 2 1/2 minutes?” If you want people to talk about your stuff, don’t do things because they’re typical. Think about the reasons why they’re typical, and whether those reasons apply to you. (Two minute trailers pull footage from movies that are 90-120 minutes long. If your show is 27 minutes long, there might be a good reason to make your trailer shorter.)
August 5th, 2010 at 7:42 am
@John August: Happy belated Birthday!
@Kevin Johnson: Thanks for commenting. Good to hear some feedback from a gamer.
@cb11235813: I’ll have to look more into the sound issue further, but thanks for your insights, the picture is becoming more clear. As I said earlier, some of the roughness plays to the environment we were going for, but obviously if it’s taking away from the experience, it needs to be addressed.
We recorded on decent equipment, but nothing super high end.
After finally getting some real feedback, I think we’re getting good idea of where and what can be edited. I really don’t mind the editing process, I find it kind of fun until my equipment crashes or freezes ;).
Once again, best of luck in your endeavors!
@Brad: We were hoping that the minimalist style of the animation would’ve played more to our source material, as in an online game, you’re typically not gonna have a range of motion and expression anywhere near, reality or even a typical scripted animated scene in a cartoon. Although games seem to get better at this every year.
That being said, we made a decision to give life to the faces and expressions that is more in-line with reality so they wouldn’t look like robots (expressions, moving eyes, etc.), and perhaps it serves the show better if we made all the characters more life-like.
It’s kind of a fine line we’ve been trying walk in terms of authenticity to source material, audience expectations, and the tediousness of animation. But I think we’re getting a better idea of what works and what should probably be discarded.
Thanks for your thoughts, and for the reading suggestions, I’ll check them out.
August 23rd, 2010 at 4:39 am
@ Peck – I understand that the animation was, in some respects, intentionally minimalistic. However, there is no excuse for bad sound. In animation, bad sound KILLS because it’s half the experience. In your film, it sounds like the voice actors are screaming into a crappy computer microphone. It’s very jarring and uncomfortable to hear.
My two cents.