The original post for this episode can be found [here](https://johnaugust.com/2021/when-youre-the-boss).
**John August:** Hello and welcome. My name is John August.
**Craig Mazin:** Hello. And welcome. My name is Craig Mazin.
**John:** And this is Episode 497 of Scriptnotes, a podcast about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters. Today on the show we will discuss what writers need—
[Doorbell chimes]
Hold on, there’s somebody at the door.
**Craig:** There’s more at the door.
**John:** Oh my gosh! It’s Aline!
**Craig:** What the–?
**John:** Aline Brosh McKenna is here.
**Aline Brosh McKenna:** Woohoo! Anyone home?
**John:** I see she has a basket full of delicious things to talk about. So she’s setting them out on the table.
**Craig:** She brought a basket?
**John:** I see a covered dish labeled “notes.” Well, what’s in notes Aline?
**Aline:** In notes I want to talk about how writers prefer to get notes. How we prefer to get notes. And how when we have to give notes we prefer to give them.
**Craig:** Ooh.
**John:** That’s right, because Aline is a boss. And so she’s having to give writers lots of notes.
**Craig:** Like a boss.
**John:** Now, in that box, it looks like sprinkles/cupcakes, but the label says “hierarchy of genres.” What do you mean by hierarchy of genres?
**Aline:** I want to talk about how the business and the creative community has decided that certain genres are “better, fancier, more serious, more important” than others.
**Craig:** I have no thoughts on this at all.
**John:** Just a completely neutral discussion without any sort of–
**Aline:** I also have no agenda here.
**Craig:** Yes, exactly. [laughs]
**John:** Plus we have lots of follow up and we have questions to answer, so it’s so good that you’re here Aline. So pull up your chair and we’ll get into all of this. And I also heard that from the premium bonus subscribers you have some scientific discoveries you’ve made bout Craig Mazin. Is that correct?
**Aline:** I do. I have the lab results.
**Craig:** Oh.
**John:** All right. We will crack into those lab results, but only for our premium members. But let’s get into all these topics today. We’ll start with the sad news that ArcLight Cinemas and Pacific Theaters overall are not going to be reopening post-Covid.
**Craig:** Aw.
**John:** Aline, for folks who are not living in Los Angeles can you give us some sense of what the ArcLight means and why it is such a loss?
**Aline:** I mean, it’s the best place to see movies in LA. And you can get your ticket in advance. You can get an assigned seat. It’s got all the best movies when they come out. And it’s really a gathering place. For our family it’s a big deal because my older son, Charlie, is a big movie buff. In 2019 he saw over 100 movies. And most of them were at the ArcLight. Basically that’s his childhood was spent there. He went to the ArcLight instead of going to the prom.
**Craig:** Well, that’s sad?
**John:** No.
**Craig:** But happy. Did he go to see the movie Prom?
**Aline:** No. He went to see a double feature of Captain Underpants and he’s going to be mad because I can’t remember the other one. But, it’s not just a theater. It’s a gathering place. There’s a bar.
**Craig:** Yes.
**Aline:** And you’ll always run into people that you know. It’s a different experience and it’s very – it’s a movie theater that’s focused on giving you the best movie-going experience as opposed to a mall where it feels like the movie theater is an afterthought. So it had a feeling also of a temple to movie-going.
**John:** It was like church for movies. Absolutely.
**Craig:** Yeah.
**John:** And so the Cinerama Dome which is the historically important part of that theater complex is that [unintelligible] Dome that you see and it’s great, and that already existed. But then they built the ArcLight cinema sort of around it. And they were just better. So, so many innovations that are common in theaters now like really great seating and being able to pick your assigned seat were there, but the thing I appreciated probably most is that there were no ads. There were no ads at all before you saw a movie. There were three trailers and only three trailers. And then you got to see your movie.
Every movie was introduced by a person in a blue shirt who told you about the movie and told you where to find them if there were any problems with projection. You applauded for that person afterwards. It was great.
We did a couple live Scriptnotes shows there. I saw my last movie before the pandemic. I saw The Invisible Man there. I saw Crazy Rich Asians twice at the Cinerama Dome, and one time John Chu was there and I got to congratulate him on his movie. It was just a great place, so I’m hopeful that someone with a lot of money will come in and save ArcLight cinemas. But, wow, it’s really sad that as things are opening up that’s not one of the things that’s going to be opening up right away.
**Craig:** I suspect that you’re going to see Warner Bros’ Cinerama Dome or something like that. I feel like one of those places is going to buy it because they can now. And the thing that I also loved about the ArcLight was that they had an actual concern for cinematic integrity. Like you knew going there the projection bulb would be the exact proper amount of lumens or however they measure it, because most people don’t know when they go to a regular theater somewhere random in the US that bulb in the projector is probably half as bright as it should be. So you’re not seeing the movie the way you’re supposed to see it.
Everybody got real smart with sound, but then the projection itself, they really took care of it there. It was a great place. It’s a bummer. But I refuse to believe that it’s just going to be shuttered and empty. Somebody else will pick this up and roll with it.
**Aline:** Same.
**John:** Yeah. Something is going to happen. My understanding is that Pacific Theaters actually does own that property, because they owned not just ArcLight Cinemas and Cinerama Dome, but also all of those shops in there. So that is a source of assets and money that can hopefully be helping it through this period and they can find some way to reopen. But we’ll keep hoping.
**Craig:** Yeah.
**John:** Now it was not all bad news this week because this week Final Draft announced that Final Draft 12 is now available for download.
**Craig:** Oh great! [laughs]
**John:** And Final Draft 12, Craig, it adds the ability to import PDFs.
**Craig:** Oh my god. They’ve somehow managed to leap frog ahead to 2006.
**John:** Yeah. So Highland 1.0, which was released eight years ago, that was its big marquee feature. It could do that. So now you can do that in the new Final Draft.
**Aline:** Did you read this tweet under your tweet, John? Somebody wrote, this Nick Rheinwald-Jones wrote, “Nice to literally every person, place, or thing except Final Draft is the personal brand I aspire to but will never reach.”
**John:** Yeah, I’m a pretty nice person but I did feel some shade when it came to Final Draft. And there was some snark as well. I’m sorry. But you cannot announce a big brand new bold feature when it has been eight years and–
**Craig:** No, it’s been done.
**Aline:** August Shade and Snark, by the way, is a podcast I would completely listen to.
**John:** 100%. Where it’s nasty.
**Aline:** Just shade and snark.
**Craig:** Sounds great. I would listen to that even.
**John:** So people can go back and listen to in the archives the Final Draft episode where the guy who owns Final Draft came in and talked with me and Craig. But he doesn’t own Final Draft anymore.
**Craig:** No.
**John:** It’s this company that just keeps going, but it’s not the same people.
**Craig:** In fact, Final Draft is owned by an entertainment business payroll company.
**John:** It feels like it, too.
**Craig:** What else do you need to know? It is literally run by bean counters. There was an update to Fade In which is the program I use. A free update. Sweet. Lovely. Some more options for PDFs and watermarking and some additional scene numbering and revision functionality, which is very nice. And Highland 2.0, so you’re at Highland 2.0 or Highland 3.0 now?
**John:** We’re in Highland 2.0
**Craig:** You’re at 2.0.
**John:** But we’ve done, like all of our little .1 releases are more than sort of every annual Final Draft release.
**Craig:** If Final Draft works the way Fade In or Highland did Final Draft would be on Final Draft 3 right now. Because, I mean, what was it, it’s a brand new release – we support the retina screen. Oh, for the love of god.
**John:** Yeah.
**Craig:** Yeah, Final Draft. Dumb.
**Aline:** Well, because so many people use it and because a lot of production companies have it people are worried about the melting of the PDFs.
**John:** Let’s talk about that.
**Aline:** It is something you can do in Highland. And I think there are other programs you can do that in, no?
**Craig:** You can do it in Fade In.
**Aline:** So, it’s just that Final Draft is the one that the executives are most familiar with, so it’s probably the one they could figure out how to melt your PDF. But, you know, there’s a certain level of just, you know, trust you have to give. You know, since the days when we started when it was on a physical piece of paper and that’s the only place it was, the minute it became digital it became meltable.
**John:** Yeah, so the concern is – I saw people tweet about this – like, oh no, this is going to ruin everything because in theory I could turn in a PDF and then the executive could open it in Final Draft and make a change in it because they want to make a change in it. It’s like, yeah, that could already happen.
**Craig:** Right.
**John:** Like, you know, a file format is not going to protect you from malfeasance.
**Craig:** No. Like the guy who works at Universal Studios can certainly pay someone $100 to just type that PDF in Final Draft. This is not a bar to entry. So, no, any – look, if they really want to screw with your stuff they’re going to screw with it. They own it. It’s theirs.
**John:** Yeah. All right. Let’s get into some follow up. We’ve been talking about female characters who have ethical dilemmas and sort of why we don’t see enough of those on screen. Margaret wrote in to say, “Yes, we’re not seeing them on the big screen, but we do see a lot on television,” which I think is a good point. So the Ted Lasso example is a great one. But she also brings up The Honorable Woman, which I’ve not seem. Le Bureau, the French series. Did you watch that Aline?
**Aline:** That’s one of my favorites. And I just have to say Marie-Jeanne forever.
**Craig:** Toujours.
**Aline:** She was incredible. Marie-Jeanne Toujours. Exactly. This is a great – yeah, you mentioned some others here. Killing Eve. Homeland. The Crown.
**John:** The Crown, of course. There’s always choices about what she’s going to do which is mostly to do nothing. But, yeah, I would say that on the small screen we’re seeing more of these.
**Aline:** I have a question for you guys. Because I’ve never written a script where I didn’t have a woman with a moral dilemma. I mean, I feel like that’s what storytelling is in a way is at some point your character gets to a point where they have to choose their moral path. Like in Devil Wears Prada the person with the moral dilemma is not Miranda, because she sort of just is who she is. It’s Andy’s choice, moral choice, not whether she wants to work in fashion or not but whether she wants to be a person who is OK with screwing her friends over and putting career above all. That is her moral dilemma.
But even in 27 Dresses Katherine’s character at the end is deciding whether or not to out her sister as a hypocrite. I think all characters have moral dilemmas. Are you talking about like–?
**Craig:** Bigger kind of life and death sort of villainy ones. Like should I pursue this path of killing people to save people? We tend to assign these larger planet-changing or population-changing dilemmas to men in these movies, but women face them as well.
I think that Margaret is right that television does a better job of it, probably because television – most of these shows that she’s listed here are elevated soap operas. And in soap operas there must be escalating moral dilemmas all the time. So it’s natural that I think this would come up and touch on the female characters as well.
In movies when you’re dealing with these kind of big moral dilemmas as opposed to personal ones. I always talk about Nemo and I think Marlin has a moral dilemma of a sort of how to deal with this son and raise his son, but I don’t think that’s what we were talking about. We were talking more about those people—
**Aline:** I think of this as I’m a good person. I’m doing this. So sometimes you write stuff that is not necessarily hinging on right or wrong. Sometimes, you know, the climax of Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, sorry, spoiler alert, is about not who she’s going to be with but what she’s going to do with her life. And that’s not a moral choice. What’s my path in life?
But a lot of the things I’ve written have to do with a woman deciding who she wants to be in the world morally. Sort of what the choices that she’s going to make to be useful in the world and to be a good person. So, it might be a genre, just the genres that are more populated by male lead characters the stakes are more like planets and death.
**Craig:** Yeah. It’s like Lindsay Doran always says that women have figured out that what matters is the relationship. So they just get to the relationship. And men need planets exploding and then the relationship. [laughs] You can actually skip past the planets.
**Aline:** You definitely have less of women deciding whether or not they need to exterminate. I mean, I’m always – I have trouble with superhero movies with calibrating – so when they wipe out a whole planet, or a whole people in sci-fi, too, I’m so distracted by that that it’s really hard for me to move on to, you know, but they still have to smuggle the backpack out to this tiny planet. I’m like but they just killed a billion people on the purple planet?
**Craig:** Right.
**Aline:** How are you guys not standing around being bummed about that? I actually think there is a certain blitheness about killing that we’ve gotten to in these stories where there’s sort of mass killing and we just kind of walk past it.
**Craig:** Yeah. I mean, the see Alderaan, they’ve figured out that Alderaan has been exploded in Star Wars and they’re like wow, oh man, that’s terrible. And then about 20 minutes later they’re joking around. Like nobody towards the end of the movie is like, “Can we just have a moment of silence for the entire planet of people that got blown up?” No, no, it’s medal time. Everybody gets medals.
**John:** It’s like the say a million 9/11s happen all at once and they’re like, “All right, let’s trade some jokes.”
**Craig:** You know the Holocaust? A lot of us.
**Aline:** Spy stuff. Le Bureau, Americans, Homeland, those are all spy pieces where all of those female characters are really, really grappling with…
**Craig:** Definitely.
**John:** 100 percent.
**Aline:** Especially in Homeland where she’s dealing with kind of the morality of American foreign policy. And it’s sort of writ large in her own person stories.
**Craig:** Yup. And I would say the same thing for Zero Dark Thirty as well.
**John:** Agreed. All right. Last episode we talked about the burden of specificity. Rachel wrote in with a question about that. Lydia from London, England writes in, “I totally agree with Craig that BIPOC writers should not have to write more about race, but isn’t it preferable and better representation to give characters some cultural specificity, even if the story they’re in is not about race at all? I think To All the Boys I Loved Before does a great job of this. Lara Jean is a middleclass character whose story is not about race, but the small cultural touch tones of her home life make her home feel specific. And her identity as a Korean-American was thoughtfully baked in from the start by creators who understood it, and not as an afterthought by a majority white team suddenly realizing their movie isn’t diverse enough.
“For me this feels like a more trustworthy and satisfying representation.”
So, yes, and I’m also wondering though about the distinction between what you ought to do and what opportunities there are to do things. Because in answering the question last week, Craig, you were defending Rachel saying, no, you shouldn’t feel like you have to have representation – as a Black writer you shouldn’t have to be the person who is creating Black representation. But also there’s an opportunity, right?
**Craig:** Well, yeah. It comes down to the character, because I agree with Lydia that there is great value to be mined in characters with cultural specificity. However, there are certain types of shows and movies where that isn’t necessarily going to add what you want, or it may disrupt the tone of what you want. In fact, there was a bit of a kerfuffle this past week over the show Luther. It’s the English show from the BBC. Luther is sort of a cop show and Luther is played by Iris Elba.
And this week the BBC diversity chief named Miranda Wayland, who is a Black Britain, came under fire after she claimed the beloved detective chief inspector “doesn’t feel authentic because of his lack of Black culture.” She said “when it first came out everybody loved the fact that Idris Elba was in there, a really strong Black character lead. We all fell in love with him? Who didn’t, right? But after you got into about the second series,” meaning the second season for them, “you got kind of like, OK, he doesn’t have any Black friends. He doesn’t eat any Caribbean food. This doesn’t feel authentic.”
This did not go over well.
**John:** I can imagine.
**Craig:** Yeah. It did not go over well because, again, it’s putting a calculation on a creative thing. So I suppose the best advice I could give in general is to put your heart in a good place. Always consider how you can work cultural specificity in in a way that makes sense and serves the story and the tone, but don’t feel that as a writer of color that you have an additional burden that other writers don’t.
And similarly as a white writer don’t feel that you have less of a burden that other writers do. That’s the best I think I could do.
**John:** Now, Aline, you’re writing and you’re also developing TV shows. So, at what stage in the conversation do these questions come up?
**Aline:** It’s definitely something that comes up. One of the writers that I’ve worked with who I really admire, the way he thinks about these things, who is a writer of color and he once said to me, “It matters when I say it matters.”
**Craig:** Mm-hmm.
**Aline:** And I think that’s an excellent guide. I think that sometimes it’s very important in the details, To All the Boys I’ve Loved Before, a good example of like makes people feel seen as texture to the story but it’s not primarily an identity piece.
I think that if you’re a writer of color you probably have some sense of how you would like things to be represented in the world. And I would seize that. And I encourage writers that I work with to seize the opportunity to depict their community in the way tht they would like for it to be depicted. And it’s often not for me to say.
So, I think it matters when you say it matters. And if you feel like it really matters in the story specify it definitely. And if you feel like you want to leave it open to, you know, open up things that may look like the default, right, and the default as we’ve discussed is often white and male. If you can open up those people’s thinking by naming a character something, you know, opening it up in places where you see an opportunity to make the world look like the world. Because that’s what we’re trying to do.
**John:** Great.
**Craig:** Do your homework. Do your homework.
**John:** Last week on the episode we also talked about Scott Rudin. And this last week there was a Twitter thread by David Graham-Caso who was writing about his brother, Kevin, who died by suicide.
**Craig:** Oh yeah. I saw this.
**John:** And Kevin had worked for Scott Rudin as an executive assistant back in 2008 and 2009. Kevin actually had a Three Page Challenge on Scriptnotes in Episode 85.
**Craig:** Oh wow.
**John:** So we’re sorry for David’s loss. I would just point everybody to this Twitter thread where the brother talks through what Kevin experienced working for Scott Rudin and sort of the affect it had on his mental health overall. And how just that year or so working for him really did hurt him a lot. And sort of the ongoing effects of this. So, you know, as we talked about last week there was physical abuse that could actually be a crime and could be prosecuted, but I think this behavior that we saw from Rudin and from people in that kind of position really does have an impact that we need to be talking about.
**Craig:** This was just tragic to read. And it reminded me that sometimes we ask the wrong question. Did someone like Kevin end his life because of what Scott Rudin did? That’s not the question. The question is was someone like Kevin experiencing mental health problems or trauma that put him in a place where he was particularly vulnerable to people like Scott Rudin? Because I can certainly say that about myself and why I ended up working for the Weinsteins for so long. Because when you have a certain pattern in your head that’s been put there you oftentimes seek repetition of it.
And the great hope is that instead of finding the repetition of abusive behavior you meet people who treat you well and you learn that there is this other way. There are too many people out here who are the perfect negative fit for folks who are coming to Hollywood. Then it is even worse to contemplate that someone is arriving here has this little lock in their brain and someone like Scott Rudin is walking around with this very bad key. And he finds him and then that key goes into the lock and it starts turning it. That’s what upsets me so much.
People who come to this business are oftentimes very vulnerable. As our great Dennis Palumbo said in Episode 99 when people come to Hollywood they are often looking for the approval that they did not receive as children. This makes them very vulnerable. And it is our responsibility as adults and people in power and people of authority in this business to be aware of that and treat people kindly. Even if they seem willing to accept abuse.
**Aline:** Man, I just, threw him from a moving car, you know, sent people to the hospital. You know, I’m kind of surprised that there isn’t more blowback on this and I keep thinking about the fact that when Harvey was taken down his career was in a massive decline. And it felt like as he became less relevant to the business people felt more comfortable speaking out, which I suppose makes sense. Scott is still very powerful to a lot of different companies. He’s a huge Broadway producer in particular. And I think this is criminal behavior.
**Craig:** Yeah.
**Aline:** And if this happened to my child I would, you know, pursue this. I would – I don’t know if people are suing him. I don’t know if the statute of limitations has run out on some of this. But this is absolutely appalling and unacceptable and people are going to still work with this guy.
**Craig:** I don’t know about that, Aline.
**John:** I don’t know that they will.
**Craig:** I think he’s done. I got to be honest, I think he’s done.
**Aline:** All right. Let’s see. Let’s do a check-in. Because, I don’t know that we can take people speaking out on Twitter as the marker. I think we have to see. I’m just very interested in the power and the employment and the money. I mean, I don’t think Scott has an overall deal with a studio right now, which means he’s drawing income from multiple companies, so that’s why there isn’t like a big firing as a friend of mine pointed out. There’s not a big where he’s deposed from a big company.
But–
**Craig:** There will be distancing I think.
**Aline:** There will be distancing. But this is not just “get me a new potato.” This is physical violence. Violence at a workplace. And you don’t have to be in any way vulnerable to be traumatized by physical violence in a place where there should be none.
**Craig:** Yeah. He sent a guy to the hospital. Broke a laptop over his hand. And I just think that the one thing Scott Rudin has done that is correct in the aftermath of this story coming out is he’s said nothing. That is indeed the best possible thing to do if you have that light on you, because everything you say just becomes more rope.
But I just don’t think people are going to want to have their selves blown up. The next person who announces that they are starting a new venture with Scott Rudin is going to hear about it from everyone.
**Aline:** I’d like to follow the money. I think we should follow the money.
**Craig:** Let’s follow the money.
**Aline:** I mean, sure, there are going to be actors who – if Scott is making movies and they’re good parts. But those are not the economically most powerful folks. I’m curious about who is investing in these shows and these movies. And they are ultimately responsible. And someone was saying to me today, “Aren’t you liable now if you know that this is how this person behaves and you go into business with them?”
**Craig:** Yes.
**Aline:** Is there a liability there?
**Craig:** Yes. Yes. That’s why I think they’re not going to do it.
**John:** These are all possible problems. So, we will flag this for follow up. And so a year from now let’s take a look and see where we’re at. My hunch is that the stuff that is in production or is sitting in the can will come out and there will be talk about it but it won’t kill those things. But I think the next author is not going to sell his book to Scott Rudin. I think the next thing he’s shopping around people will just step back away from it and won’t want to touch it. And I think that is what’s going to happen. Because as you said he’s no one’s employee, so you can’t just fire him. But you can simply not take his projects.
**Craig:** Yeah. I think he’s radioactive.
**John:** All right. One of my favorite things we’ve discussed on this show has been the crush from last episode.
**Craig:** The best.
**John:** And so Megana read the original crush letter, so I want to make sure that she comes back for this follow up that we have, because I also want to hear Aline’s take on this. So, Megana, can you come on and give us a follow up from Oops who has a crush on her producer?
**Megana Rao:** Hello. OK. So I cut this first part down for time to protect Oops’s identity. But to get you guys up to speed her production is currently in quarantine and the producer has gone ahead and asked her to get a drink after the quarantine ends, which should be this weekend.
**Craig:** OK.
**John:** Wow.
**Megana:** And so Oops wrote in and she said, “As it stands we have eight weeks of prep and a ten-week shoot. As much as I love it I don’t think I can sit in this giddy Victorian fan-waving space for that long without being sick on myself. I’m just going to go have a couple of drinks, be chill, see what the vibe is, and maybe pull the Mazin rip cord a la what are we doing, there’s something here right, and just see how it goes.
“If I fall flat on my face that’s fine. At least I got it out there and can just get up and move forward. I’ll take a little minor embarrassment over another four months of will they/won’t they. Because as much as I love a good rom-com I don’t want it to be my life. I promise to come through with any further updates. You guys are amazing. Thank you so much for the sagest of advice. And for what it’s worth, we always need more Sexy Craig.”
**Craig:** You will always have more Sexy Craig. Sexy Craig doesn’t run out. You know what I’m saying? He doesn’t get tired. Ever.
**Aline:** So, you know what?
**Craig:** No one pays attention to Sexy Craig. [laughs]
**John:** That’s how we get rid of him.
**Aline:** I listened to this question. This landed so completely differently on me. As I was listening to the podcast with my headphones on under my weighted blanket I really wanted to like sit up and call you guys. And I ran this by a couple female executives and another female writer. This is really tricky.
Now, I’m not going to – I think Oops, the specific of Oops’s situation are hard to tell without knowing the specifics. But I will say that this is something that I specifically did not do when I was a young writer. I specifically did not date anyone in the business. That may have been a more extreme stance than I needed to take, but the reason I did that was because especially executives and agents I was very aware of how they spoke about the women they had dated.
And to this day there are female writers who will come up and men will say some version of “she slept to the top.” And, again, I’m not saying that’s what Oops is doing. And I’m not saying this is right. I’m not saying this is the way things should be. But when you’re dealing with a patriarchy there’s a way things should be and the way things are.
And so even though this gentleman is not the person she reports to directly, he is part of the other company, right? And she doesn’t work for them. So Hollywood is one big workplace. Because we’re freelance and they’re not, but we are one big workplace where people talk. If it goes south and I hope it doesn’t, but if it goes south you have no recourse and now you’re inside your project with what might be attention. You break up with them, that’s going to be awkward. They break up with you, there’s an awkwardness there.
You got to be so, so, so careful. I wish there wasn’t a double standard, but in a business which is so male-dominated. When men flirted with me at work, especially when they did it in front of other people, I never took it as sincere interest. I always took it as an assertion of power. Like the director who looked at my ring and said, “Oh, you’re engaged. What a bummer.” Never thought he was interested in me. Only thought he was trying to diminish me frankly.
So, listen, I haven’t been on a date since 1996. So, I’m not as current. But I will say be super, super careful, especially about – I mean, the thing that Craig said which is like if you say I know we’re feeling this way and somebody says, “I’m sorry, we feel what way,” that’s not at a bar. That’s in your workplace. That is very hard to walk away from.
And so I thought that John said, you know, at first your instinct was to say wait and then to say no to your feelings, and I thought no to your feelings was a really good thought, not just as a writer, but also just note it. I feel like I have some chemistry with this person. And if it’s real chemistry that is going to be a real relationship it will wait.
If it’s hop into bed chemistry I think you should be really careful about introducing that into your workplace. Because Oops may have found her happy ever after, and I understand the temptation there, but I would just be very careful. I mean, I think whatever the streak is in my personality, I was always vaguely offended when that came up. Because I felt like well now you’re looking at me not as a peer. You’re looking at me as a girl to date. And I suppose that’s an antiquated way of looking at things. But I would just say be careful.
And I think John and Craig you have probably been in fewer rooms where sex has been introduced.
**Craig:** Every room I’m in, Aline. Every room I’m in.
**Aline:** Well, it feels pretty bad. And I will tell you just a funny – I mean, I guess this is funny – it’s a little dark P.S. to this. So I never went out with any executives or agents. I think writer to writer is a different story, because you’re not – there’s a different power imbalance. But one of the gentleman who was an agent-executive back in the day, so I had lunch with him not long ago, maybe a year and a half ago. And he’s my age. And he said, and again, as I made clear this was never on the table. This was never on the table. And he very magnanimously said to me, and it was clear that he thought he was saying something really flattering and he said it in front of his female executive. He said, “You know Aline back in the day when we were in our 20s I totally would have slept with you, which is like a weird thing for me because I usually don’t want to have sex with the smart girls.”
That’s a thing that was said to me recently as if I was supposed to be like super flattered. And what I said was, “It was never on the table.” And everybody laughs. But like what?
**John:** So, Aline, here’s where I want to find the balance here, because I think so much of how you framed that is important to understand. And the recognition that in a patriarchy and in a double standard that she is risking more by going out on a date with this guy than he is risking. And that’s not right, but that is a reality.
And at the same time be open to the reality that people fall in love and meet their spouses at work situations.
**Aline:** 100 percent.
**John:** And you and I were both sort of starting in the business at the same time and I did date in the industry a lot. And slept with people I was working with. And that’s also OK. I guess there’s a double standard there as well, sort of women versus men there. But I want Oops to have a great personal life and a great work life. And for her to understand that she’s going to make some choices that are going to tip the balance there a little bit in these next couple weeks. So, that’s why I want to know what happens this weekend.
**Craig:** Yeah. I think that’s good. I mean, everything that Aline said is mission critical for Oops to have in her head. And the good thing is I do recall that when she was describing the situation she did say that this guy has been an absolute gentleman. And I think that there’s value to that, because there are guys out there – there’s a spectrum of piggish behavior. No one is perfect, of course, but there are certain guys that it’s very red-flaggy. Some guys are sort of like in between. And then some guys, OK, gentlemen. So I want to give her the credit of her own ability to evaluate. But I think trust but verify is a really great way of moving forward.
You are allowed to go into something in good faith. You just have to keep your eyes open and watch it carefully. When she says she doesn’t think she can sit in this giddy Victorian fan-waving space for that long, I get it. And there is—
**Aline:** Well, OK, I’m going to say two more things. Sets, they’re the most gossipy places. And if that becomes, and she mentioned in her last letter that people were aware that there was some chemistry. So if they start having a sexual relationship everyone will know about it in pretty short order.
**John:** Yup.
**Aline:** And, again, if that is enough of a priority for her to – I was going to use the word “risk.” Maybe it’s a risk. Then to have a strategy for what happens when for example his boss finds out about it, or other people on set find out about it. Everything she said last week led me to believe that this is a nice guy, where they’re having a real connection, in which case, man, movies you’re working so hard. You know, four months – again, this is an older lady talking. But in four months it feels like if you guys have had some nice dinners and hangs while you’re working and then when you’re done if it’s something that is a real thing – I have no problem with people meeting the person that they are romantically interested in at work. But this is a specific circumstance where her fate is tied to his fate and she does not have the same access to the levers of power that he does.
And the thing I just want people to remember is there is no one to go to. He has an HR department. You do not have an HR department.
**Craig:** Oops, she’s got us. She’s got a whole podcast.
**Aline:** [laughs] But, I mean, as a woman. So, when this has happened to me, when someone says – I’m nine months pregnant and I walk into a meeting and the executive says, “I guess this would be a bad day to punch you in the stomach,” I don’t have anyone to tell. I can either just laugh and move on, as I sort of did, and then cry in my car, as I did. And then go and hang out with Craig and John and my buddies and tell the story. But it sucks. And you have no one to tell. And I think, you know, relationships can go south in a billion different ways and can only go right in one way.
So, I don’t want to be the prim old lady, but I want her to be careful. And I’m sorry that there’s a double standard, but this is still an extremely male system.
**Craig:** I think we’ve given Oops a lot of really good boundaries, right? So, you can look around all of our various advices and see where kind of, you know, the optimism and the pessimism and the wariness and the trust are. And then I think move through it as the smart person that you are and remind yourself that you are an adult.
**John:** Yeah.
**Craig:** And you can do this.
**John:** You’re also the writer who got this movie into production.
**Craig:** Correct.
**John:** So congratulations on that. Celebrate that, also.
**Craig:** Exactly. This is one of the things about being human that we cannot avoid. We cannot avoid the infatuations. We cannot avoid love. We cannot avoid relationships with the people we’re attracted to. We can temper them. We can delay them. We can moderate them. How you approach this ultimately of course, Oops, you have all the agency here. It is up to you.
I think you’ve gotten the broadest possible spectrum of maybes, red flags, encouragement. What else can we give you?
**Aline:** I mean, she’s certainly gotten a lot of advice.
**Craig:** Yes. You’re drowning in advice now.
**Aline:** And I’m curious if this has ever happened to you guys, but it’s pretty incredible the amount of times, especially because I started working when I was 23. And I got married when I was 30. And in those years it was kind of incredible how much – and by the way, still after that. I mean, just telling you other stories where people feel like they need to call attention to your boobs or your butt or your marital status. It’s pretty shocking.
And I actually think that because I am older I learned to walk past it. And I hope that younger women have an ability to say, “Hey, that’s not cool.” But the problem is you don’t have anyone to tell. And that’s the issue.
**Craig:** Yeah. I don’t know exactly – I mean, I think we’re all presuming that Oops is younger than we are. She might not be. But I know that what you’re saying is deeply, deeply true because even I have said some moments in my career, even I, where as a married guy and not exactly a Chippendales dancer, have had some moments where weird shit was said.
**Aline:** Yeah. Well, the funny thing is that I was always – because I was always aware not to bring that into the room it was always – it is always a shock to me. And the thing is one of the reasons it can get confusing is because we work on personal stuff. Right? These are personal stories. And you end up telling personal stories. And you have to. I don’t know what kind of movie this is, but generally we’re writing about human relationships. And so one of the things that distinguishes Hollywood from other workplaces is you’re going to tell a story about when you lost your virginity if that’s the show you’re working on. So by virtue of the kind of work we do you’re going to share more vulnerable, probably more vulnerable, parts of yourselves.
But that to me makes it even more important that we are careful and safe. And that as women in particular in a lot of ways you have to set up your own protective zone. And as you said that’s one of the things you learn to do not just as a writer, but as an adult.
**Craig:** Right. Because this is all messy everywhere. And, boy, if you were surprised when people said stuff to you, imagine how surprised I was when someone said something to me.
**Aline:** Yeah, but you know, Sexy Craig.
**John:** Sexy Craig.
**Craig:** Well, that’s the thing. Sometimes I forget how sexy Sexy Craig is.
**John:** Now, if a writer like Oops is very, very lucky she might have a boss like Aline or someone she’s working for like Aline. And so Aline—
**Aline:** Those segues.
**Craig:** Segue Man!
**Aline:** So good.
**John:** Aline, you are now a boss. And so you are working with writers who are working through pitches and you’re hopefully setting up shows at various places. Talk to us about your notes process with writers and sort of what you’ve learned now that you’ve been doing this for a while?
**Aline:** Yeah. And I wanted to ask you guys how you do this. So one of the things that I – we have a bunch of writers who are working for us. We have about six to eight writers who are working on various projects. And one of the things that I try to do as a producer is to approach things the way I would have enjoyed things being approached when I’m a writer, or when I was and am a writer.
What I found is that I don’t – and this was true in the writer’s room, too – I don’t have my system and everyone has to go with my system. I don’t say this is how we give notes, and you must get these notes in this format. When we start working with a writer I will ask them do you like spoken notes, do you like written notes, do you like written notes with suggestions or written notes with no suggestions? Because the thing you guys point out which is that you don’t want to activate the lizard brain. Right?
Once you’ve activated the fear-shame complex it’s very hard for writers to respond. So, for me I like spoken notes. I would rather get on the phone and have people walk me verbally through their notes, because I like to discuss, and because I like to hear the problem and respond to the problem in the moment. That’s probably when I’m going to have my best idea, because I’m a talker.
But some people when you try to do that they’re so activated by the thought that they have to be articulate that they would prefer to have written notes. And then among the people who like written notes some people really want to hear like hey this takes a little time getting started, why don’t you cut this scene, or move this. And some people just want to hear seems like we could get started a little more quickly.
So, I think one of the things I would love is for the business to be more flexible to the artist, because the artist is the one who has to write. And it always makes me laugh when you get notes which is like we should do blah-blah-blah, and I’m like we? Who is we? It’s me.
So, I think, you know, one of the things I try and do is I try and take all of the necessary kind of distancing that comes with a critique or comes with feedback and pose it more like is it possible, could we, could we think about, would this work, as opposed to dictates. Because you’re trying to keep people’s brains sort of limber.
Now, do you guys have a preference about whether you like spoken, written, what type of written?
**John:** I think like you I tend to prefer spoken, unless it’s just like down the page notes and then it’s fine for that. And Craig I remember you talking on our Notes on Notes episode about that lizard brain thing and keeping you from blocking up. What works for you?
**Craig:** I prefer to have a discussion about all of it. I don’t want to look at any notes on a page. I find that they are codified in a way that makes me feel vaguely nauseated. And the thing about a discussion is that you can go through methodically the way you write. Even if we’re going through, like, you know, I just went through an episode I just finished with Neil Druckmann. So I’m writing the episode. I send it to him. He reads it. And then we have a discussion. And at this point it was just some page notes. And what was nice is we get to a page. He can say, OK, here’s my question, or this line, and we have a discussion, and then I kind of like fix it. There. And then we move on.
And so now we’re not having this notes session which is like going to the dentist, lying back, and having them put needles in your mouth. Now you’re just working, which is what you want.
**Aline:** But, Craig, the three of us are talkers. And I, like you, I prefer that. But I always ask writers. And most of the ones that I’ve worked with like a document.
**Craig:** Great.
**Aline:** Because they like to tick it off. And, you know, there is a difference between the two-page document and the eight-page document. And trying to undo any kind of snarkiness in notes. When I get a set of notes, me personally that I like, I give them to Heather, our VP, Emily, our director of development, Jeff, our development coordinator. I will show them written notes that I like, that made me feel encouraged and happy.
But I have found like executives really want to give you written notes. And I will try and couple that for myself personally. I will try and couple that with a conversation because I so prefer it. But a lot of writers are really internal. And they don’t want to be – if you do it verbally they will feel called on the carpet, so they prefer–
**Craig:** That’s good to know. I think the point is you’re asking them what it is they’d like. You’re right, the executives literally have to write the notes down because that’s work product for them that they’re judged on. They have to be distributed internally and someone has to say, oh look, John did his job this week and wrote notes up. So whatever works for you as the writer I think it’s important. Even if there are written notes, write your written notes as an executive. And then if you know that that writer likes the conversation then call them with your written notes right there and walk through it.
I have no problem with that at all. I tend to like that. I also am particularly fond of questions. I think questions are inherently more respectful and therefore will be more productive than blanket statements.
**Aline:** Did you consider? Would it be possible?
**Craig:** I actually hate “did you consider.”
**Aline:** Oh, interesting.
**Craig:** Because did you consider is one of the more insulting ones. Like did you consider? Yeah, I considered that. Now let me tell why I didn’t do it. But what I do like is when I get to a place and it says something like “what were you going for here because what we got was this, but what were you intending?” Or, “is there a way that it could be more like this or this? If not, this is what we’re kind of missing from this. But how would you do it differently to get this or this? So that it is not just…”
Because my least favorite notes are the ones that are like “we feel that we’re missing an opportunity for more fun here.” Well, I feel that that doesn’t mean anything. Everything is an opportunity for everything. We could be missing an opportunity for a killing. Or a joke. Or something exploding. Or sex. Or anything. It’s all opportunities. Everything is building in choices. So why?
Everything is about why to me, and that’s why I kind of like the questioning aspect as opposed to the “this didn’t work, take out.” Oh, OK. No. Because I thought about it and you didn’t. I know why it’s there and you don’t. That kind of thing.
Although I have to say I always feel very self-conscious now. HBO gives excellent notes. I’ve got to tip my hat to those guys. They are really good at them. And I’m not kissing their asses. I was nervous like I’m doing this and then they’re like, “Oh, he’s talking about us.” I’m actually definitely not talking about HBO. But pick every other place I’ve worked at.
**John:** Yeah. I’m about to turn in something at a brand new place and I’m really curious what the notes are going to be like from that.
**Craig:** Brace yourself.
**John:** Yeah. I just don’t know.
**Aline:** Our company is a writer-driven company. Our sort of mission is to support writers. And I’ve just learned that part of that is being flexible to whatever – you know, some people want to come in and do cards with me and put them up. And some people want to do it on their own and come back with an outline. Some people don’t want an outline. I just try and let the writer enjoy their process. Because one of the problems with notes is that they can squeeze the joy.
So I’m trying to find notes that are – they’re never going to be fun, but that feel like a great conversation with someone who really respects you and the work. And is not clipping your wings, which they can often feel like.
**John:** All right, now I’m looking at the layout on the table here and so we have all these great dishes. And I need to break open this box that I thought was sprinkles cupcakes is actually about the hierarchy of genres. So, you and I have talked, I remember I think we talked about this on our walk a couple weeks ago. But talk me through what you perceive Hollywood tends to look at the hierarchy of genres. Which movies are important and meaningful versus which ones are trivial and not important? Is that the spectrum?
**Aline:** There’s just this dramas are better. You know, that’s how you’re made to feel. And the funny this is it’s not just awards or critics or whatever. And again so I work with a lot of female leads. My movies, even if We Bought a Zoo has a male lead, but that’s a female audience. I feel often still at the age of 53 head-padded by people. The most stunning example I think I told on this podcast was when somebody was talking about some really pretentious story thing and then turned to me and said, “Aline, do you have to worry about that in your movies?”
And I was like, no, no, I just write a makeover montage and then a meet-cute and then I call it a day. And what’s so interesting to me, I think we’ve got to all live in the moment of realizing that It Happened One Night won Best Picture, Best Screenplay, Best Director, Best Actor, Best Actress.
**John:** Yeah.
**Aline:** And that was a romantic comedy. And somehow this primacy on darkness, seriousness, violence, bleakness, I get it, and taste is taste, but why is that considered fancier or cooler? Anybody who has written funny stuff and serious stuff knows that funny stuff is way harder.
**John:** Well also we’ve talked about this before on the show that if a man makes a movie it’s a serious thing, but if a woman makes a movie it’s a rom-com. Even if they’re exactly the same movie. But I do want to talk about the hierarchy of genres here, because I would say that Hollywood values most, or at least when it especially comes to awards time, is the sort of historical courtroom drama is sort of like there up at the top, or some important moment in history as a drama is at the very top. And near the bottom would be, you know, the light, fluffy romantic comedy. The thing that looks like it’s effortless but it’s actually really difficult to do.
And somewhere stretched in the middle of those are like the Marvel movies.
**Craig:** Oh, I think the spoof movie is underneath that one. I would argue the spoof movie is in the basement.
**Aline:** Yeah, when you get into the super broad comedies. But it’s kind of the thing about how like people will review stuff and be like these people were lazy. They weren’t lazy. You work as hard on the crappy ones as the good ones. You probably work more on the ones that don’t work than the ones that do work. Because the ones that do work just kind of have a special “they’re working” thing to them. When something is not working it’s a lot of work. And I don’t know why people think it’s more or less work to write a dark historical piece where somebody ends up dead in a well at the end. Why is that better or harder, given more credence than writing a legit funny movie or silly movie?
**Craig:** Well, I think one of the things about that process, and obviously I agree with the premise of your position here wildly. Violently at that. I have written a lot of comedies and writing Chernobyl was far, far easier than writing Scary Movie 4. It’s not even close. Not even close. Also, rarer. It’s just rarer to be able to write Scary Movie 4 and have that movie come out and people go see it than it is to write something like Chernobyl.
I do think that comedies are wildly undervalued. And part of it is because critics generally aren’t funny people. And as you get older you get less interested in comedy. It just seems like that’s sort of the way the world goes. And generally speaking critics are older. And their tastes harden. And their lives also begin to turn around things that are sadder. The older the get the more your life is about infirmity, sickness, approaching mortality, the collapsing of marriages, and all these things, right? And so they like it.
**Aline:** I never thought of that. I really never thought of that.
**Craig:** I mean, like my dad, somewhere around 50, so I just turned 50, somewhere around when he turned my age just started watching documentaries about World War II and never stopped. Like it just happens. And it’s happened to me. Because here I am, like the things that I’m interested in have gotten darker because it’s sort of where my mind has gone. So there is a natural built-in demographic over-celebration of drama.
Here’s a statistic for you. You mentioned It Happened One Night. There have been seven comedies that have won Best Picture since the beginning of the Academy Awards. Seven. One of them, the last one, was ten years ago, and it was The Artist, which was in French and silent. So I don’t count that one.
**John:** Important facts.
**Craig:** In fact you have to go back to Annie Hall. We’ll sidestep the problematic aspects for this discussion. Annie Hall, 1977.
**John:** Broadcast News didn’t win?
**Aline:** No.
**Craig:** Broadcast News did not win.
**John:** Oh.
**Craig:** So Annie Hall in 1977. 44 years ago.
**Aline:** I’m going to argue also that Annie Hall also rode in under the auteur exemption. Comedies by auteurs are considered—
**John:** A David O. Russell comedy. Yeah.
**Craig:** Right.
**Aline:** Yeah. Not accidentally a male auteur are considered more phi-phi-foo-foo.
**Craig:** Prior to Annie Hall in 1977, The Sting won in 1973. And there was Tom Jones from England in ’63. Going My Way, 1944. A musical comedy. And then You Can’t Take It With You which was a proper comedy-comedy, classic adapted one-act or one-set play, and then It Happened One Night in 1934. That’s it. All of the incredible comedies that have come out over time, none of those, none have gotten Best Picture.
But Crash has Best Picture.
**Aline:** Well, I was going to say, so a lot of the movies that you think of as the definitive movies for a year are the comedies.
**Craig:** Of course.
**Aline:** There’s the ones that you’ve watched a million, billion times, and then you go back and look at what won Best Picture and you’re like, oh god, I forgot that even existed. And so it’s just a funny – but I think some of it is connected to sexism as I would. I think I’ve been that person through this whole podcast. But also what Craig said I didn’t think of which is also you know when they do those studies of who the Rotten Tomatoes critics are I wonder if you do an age breakdown that there is sort of a grumpiness. And also like a not understanding of what is funny, you know, or what people are finding funny.
**Craig:** They don’t know.
**John:** So the same discussion we’re having about movies though you could have about books. In the sense that the great American novel has to be written by a white man of a certain age. The same thing happens in literature. The same thing probably happens in music.
**Aline:** Oh, Broadway for sure.
**John:** Broadway for sure. And so I think why it matters is because when you decide that certain genres or certain kinds of writing are more valuable you pay those people more, you give them more respects. Even if it’s independent of the commercial success of these projects. And that’s challenging.
**Aline:** That’s why when I went to see Identity Thief I know how hard it is to write that movie. That’s a really hard movie to write.
**Craig:** It was hard. It was hard.
**Aline:** It is really hard. First of all, you’re walking in the shoes of a billion opposite buddy comedies with a road component. I mean, I look at the more slender comedies and think, wow, what a tiny target you had to make somebody laugh. You know, Game Night to me is like what an incredible thing to do to take something that could have been that minor. And we’ve watched that movie in our house – the movie that we’ve watched the most in our house is Rawson’s movie, Dodgeball.
**Craig:** Oh yeah. It’s great.
**Aline:** But then it’s just funny how people will then migrate to, I mean, somebody I know once who generally directs comedies is just always really searching for his awards movie.
**Craig:** Serious.
**Aline:** Yeah. Because it’s like you want to be able to get that. I understand. But I think that creative – that’s why I always think that the Writers Guild Awards will recognize comedy more frequently because writers understand how hard it is to do.
**Craig:** We get it. I mean, if you look back at 2005 in movies. That was the year that Crash came out and won Best Picture. But that same year Wedding Crashers came out. And so did 40-Year-Old Virgin. In no possible world is anybody thinking more about or watching Crash more than they have 40-Year-Old Virgin and Wedding Crashers. Those movies were massive and they were brilliant. And they were also movies that kind of changed comedy a bit as well. And no one cares about Crash.
And I’m sorry I’m beating up on Crash, it’s just it’s sort of a notorious underserving Best Picture.
**Aline:** The scene in Wedding Crashers where they sit on the steps of the building in Washington and Owen says, “You know, I think we’re getting a little old for this,” I think about and cite that scene all the time. Because that is one of the things that elevates that movie from an ordinary comedy to a truly great comedy which is the sadness of those guys kind of knowing how pathetic this is and how their friendship is based on something that’s kind of necrotic.
And it’s hard to do. Now obviously I am biased, but when I have written more serious pieces with fewer jokes in them I also find I get fewer notes. But structurally—
**Craig:** People respect you more somehow. Like they think that what is moving and dramatic to you is more sacrosanct than what is funny to you. And I always want to say it’s the same. It’s the same. You’re hiring me not for my personal feelings. What you’re hiring me for is the hope that what I think is good is also something that a lot of other people will think is good. That’s what you’re hiring me for. Taste.
**Aline:** Well, one of the funny things is that when we started in the business, now this is just like old people sitting around a table, but John was by far the grooviest of the three of us. I mean—
**Craig:** Sure. He was on IMDb.
**Aline:** Oh, but also John was like cool and had written cool movies that were more like awards-y.
**Craig:** He’s still cool.
**Aline:** No, what I’m saying we kind of caught up here and there. But I was really intimidated by John because I read Go early on and was like, wow, that script is so great. And he seemed to me like this really super cool bald guy with a leather jacket who was really kick ass.
**John:** I’ve never had a leather jacket.
**Aline:** I know. In my mind you did. The leather jacket you had in my mind was pretty cool. But, you know, John you’ve moved through a lot of different genres I would say not strictly speaking comedy. So even the ones that are a little bit lighter or a little bit more in the entertainment zone still keep you adjacent to the sanctioned things.
**John:** Our clock is quickly ticking down, so I think we need to get to our One Cool Things.
**Craig:** Let’s do it.
**John:** My One Cool Thing is a post by Jacob Kaplan-Moss called Embrace the Grind. And so it starts with a description of like how this one magic trick is done which is important because it’s just like, yeah, there’s a little magic, but it’s mostly a lot of incredibly hard work and just like thousands of hours of time to set up all these props. And you think like well no one would actually do those things. And it reminded me of – I got a chance to work with Steven Spielberg when he was going to do Big Fish and I got to help out on some other projects with him. And I saw him on set and I realized like, oh, he’s just working really hard.
And it’s a thing I think we often forget about talented visionaries. In many cases it’s not that they’re actually better, they’re just actually willing to do a lot of really hard tedious work. And both Spielberg and Tim Burton, like they just plan really, really well and carefully. And a lot of what you’re seeing that looks just like mastery is just because they’ve mastered the ability to actually just do the work.
So I urge people to take a look at this post.
**Craig:** That’s so true.
**John:** And think about just sort of like grinding through things.
**Craig:** It reminds me, you know, we just bought a new home near you guys. So we are now moving – slowly moving – it’s going to take well over a year for us to transition because our daughter is still going to school where we are in La Cañada. So we have a new home near where you guys are. And I told David Kwong and he immediately said, “Are you doing any work in it?” And I said you know what? One of the reasons we bought this house is because it doesn’t really need much of anything. Maybe little bits here and there.
He goes, “Please tell me whatever it is, because if you open a wall or do something we can set something up.” And he said like two years from now you have a party and we do something that blows everyone’s mind because it’s impossible unless you had set it up two years earlier while the walls were open. I just thought like that’s so great. I love that.
**John:** That’s David Kwong.
**Craig:** That is David Kwong.
**John:** That’s doing the work. Craig, what have you got?
**Craig:** Well in keeping with my puzzle fetish, so you know I love bringing these – there’s a new phenomenon of these puzzle packs that come out specifically to support charities. And Nate Cardin, who is I believe a chemistry teacher perhaps at Harvard Westlake, and also an outstanding puzzle constructor and of course goes without saying solver, flagged me to – he is one of the guys that runs the Queer Qrosswords. So, he flagged me to this new similar crossword pack called These Puzzles Fund Abortion.
And these puzzles are brought together by lots of folks, although Rachel Fabi is the person that is sort of spearheading the promotion of this on Twitter. These Puzzles Fund Abortion. Crossword Puzzles for Reproduction Justice. It’s a good packet. And it all goes to the Baltimore Abortion Fund.
And I have a link here. By the way, I’m just super happy as somebody that has been supporting what I guess we traditionally call pro-choice efforts for a long time, I like that we’re saying abortion now because that’s what it is. I mean, granted, Planned Parenthood as we know does a ton more than just abortion. But it is good to normalize abortion. It is a thing that a lot of people do and need for all sorts of reasons.
And so if you like crossword puzzles and you like femaductive, female reproductive rights and the access to safe and affordable abortion then please do take a look at this link in the show notes. Donate and solve.
**Aline:** That’s fantastic. Puzzles and femaductive rights.
**Craig:** Femaductive rights.
**Aline:** These are two of my favorite things.
**Craig:** Can we make femaductive a thing?
**Aline:** Yeah, femaductive. That’s good.
**Craig:** Femaductive. I mean, it’s just saving time.
**Aline:** All right, I like to have my One Cool Things on this show be things that generally you probably aren’t talking about. I have, and I’ve discussed it on the show before, I have wavy but not really curly hair. Wavy-ish, curly-ish hair. And there’s a whole area of TikTok which is just about women generally showing how to curl their hair. Sometimes men. But what are the best products, ways, towels, methods, plopping your hair, forgetting your curls to be their full curliness.
So I’m just going to make a couple suggestions. I’m hoping that somebody will then let us know if that helped them find their curl. I can’t take credit for these. These come from my hair stylist, James Carameta from Harper Salon. I’m just going to tell you two things.
After you wash your hair, put in your curling cream, and there’s many good curling creams on the market. Comb it through. Do not scrunch. Finger coil.
**John:** OK.
**Craig:** John and I already knew this. We’ve been doing this.
**Aline:** They tell you to scrunch. Don’t scrunch.
**John:** No, don’t scrunch.
**Craig:** Don’t scrunch.
**Aline:** Just finger coil the curls where you want them and then don’t touch it. Don’t touch it.
**Craig:** Don’t touch…
**Aline:** Watch TV. Make dinner. Do not keep scrunching, curling. Just put the finger curls in, go about your business. It has changed my life.
**John:** Nice.
**Craig:** I’m going to have to get on this.
**John:** It sounds like less work and better outcomes. So, I’m glad to hear it.
**Aline:** 100 percent. And less heat damage.
**John:** Good. All right. Maybe Megana who is on this podcast will be able to use that. We certainly cannot. But that’s awesome. That’s great.
**Megana:** Yeah, I have a ton of follow up questions that I’ll ask Aline later.
**Craig:** You guys need your own podcast on that.
**Aline:** I use the [Arun Co] Curling Cream. And the shampoo that I plugged last time I was on the show.
**Megana:** Yes, I remember that. OK, perfect.
**Craig:** I use shampoo.
**John:** Yeah. Honestly I don’t even use shampoo because I don’t have enough hair to use shampoo. I just wash.
**Craig:** I use a shampoo brand called For What’s Left. [laughs]
**John:** Good stuff. That is our show for this week. Scriptnotes is produced by Megana Rao. It is edited by Matthew Chilelli. Congrats to Matthew Chilelli and his husband Tao on their green card.
**Craig:** Yay.
**Aline:** Yay.
**John:** That’s very good news. Our outro this weeks is by Peter Hoopes. If you have an outro you can send us a link to ask@johnaugust.com. That’s also the place where you can send longer questions. For short questions on Twitter I am @johnaugust. Craig is not on Twitter anymore. Aline, are you on Twitter? Are you using the Twitter these days?
**Aline:** I am @alinebmckenna. I’m not there very much, but I pop in.
**John:** Tag her. You can find the show notes for this episode and all episodes at johnaugust.com. That’s also where you find the transcripts and sign up for our weekly-ish newsletter called Inneresting which has lots of links to interesting things about writing.
**Craig:** Inneresting.
**John:** You can sign up to become a premium member at Scriptnotes.net where you get all the back episodes and bonus segments like the one of scientific discovery that Aline is about to drop on us.
**Aline:** Mmmm.
**John:** Aline, thank you for stopping by.
**Craig:** Thanks Aline.
**Aline:** Yes, I will pick up my cupcake box and go.
**John:** Yay.
[Bonus segment]
**John:** All right, Aline, break the news. What have you learned? Tell us.
**Aline:** I wanted to talk about, have you guys talked about your 23andMe? Have you guys both done 23andMe?
**John:** We have because I learned that I am even more German than I thought I was. And Craig is related to–
**Craig:** Megan Amram.
**John:** Another one of our previous guests. Megan Amram.
**Craig:** She’s my cousin.
**Aline:** Well, one of the last times I saw Craig we compared our 23andMe. And we are distant cousins.
**Craig:** That makes sense.
**Aline:** We are not close. But we are distant cousins. But, you know, I was very interested in this because – so Craig you’re Ashkenazi. What percent are you?
**Craig:** I am 99.6 percent Ashkenazi Jewish.
**John:** That’s a lot.
**Aline:** So most of my Jewish friends are indeed like that. But my mother is Sephardic. Her mother was Algerian. Her father was Moroccan. She’s French. And so fascinatingly I knew that Sephardic Jews have more diverse influences, but–
**Craig:** Spanish. African.
**Aline:** I found out, yes, so my largest pieces are Ashkenazi Jew is 51%.
**Craig:** Oh my god, you’re a half a Jew.
**Aline:** I am half a Jew because my father is – no, sorry, yes, no it’s 51%. And the other bigger components are North African, of which I am 15.2 percent. And then delightfully Italian, of which I am 11.4 percent.
**Craig:** Nice.
**Aline:** What a delight. So when I found that out I was so excited I took my entire family to E Baldi. But it’s really fun to see, so Ashkenazi Jews, really I have five percent Arab, Egyptian and Levantine, West Asian and – so that’s basically like–
**Craig:** Moorish.
**Aline:** And Ottoman Empire stuff. And so it was really interesting, so you were saying as you get older you become the person who watches Holocaust documentaries, your dad, or war documentaries. And I am in the phase of middle age where I read books about Jews.
**Craig:** Oh dear lord. It’s begun.
**Aline:** So, I’m reading books about Sephardic Jews, Jews in Muslim lands, and it’s really fascinating to see how the Sephardic people peeled off from what is now the Middle East and wandered around Europe and North Africa. And so my background reflects that. And I know that some of this a little bit like astrology, right, because they’re just guessing here and there. But it’s really interesting.
And then, you know, the Ashkenazi Jew thing coexists with this other type of Jew which I think a lot of American Jews, or a lot of American people don’t really know that there is another type of Jew.
**Craig:** Oh yeah. No, we certainly – and when you meet the other – and I mentioned Neil Druckmann before who I’m working The Last of Us. He created the game and the story. And he is Israeli. Obviously he’s not like – I don’t think his lineage goes and stays within that area. But he is Israeli. He’s definitely more of a Sephardic kind of guy. And it’s a different sort of – they’re very different. Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews have a real difference to them. Believe me, I am distressed by the level of inbreeding that has resulted in me. This is not correct. You don’t want this. You don’t want to be 99.6 anything.
I’m glad my kids are not. Although I have also noticed in my kids that even though they are both 50% Jewish my daughter is definitely way more Jewish than my son. Like as far as Jewishness goes, it’s hard to describe it, but she’s more Jewish.
**Aline:** My brother’s results were less Italian and more Middle Eastern. And he definitely has different appearance things. Of course, you know, these are all–
**John:** I do want to talk about, there’s a little bit of hand-waving happening here.
**Aline:** Yes, there is.
**John:** Because it’s not like they can say like, oh, this spot of the gene on your DNA shows that you are from this thing. What they do is they take a bunch of samples from all over the world and they say like, OK, well these patterns seem to match these different places. But that Italian thing could just be because there was a community of people who were in Italy for whatever reason but they weren’t actually part of the larger Italian group.
**Aline:** That’s right.
**John:** So it gets all a little bit murky when you start to try to drill down into individual things because people will show up as like, oh, it turns out that I must be part Filipino. And then they’ll check about six months later it’s like oh no it turns out that’s completely wrong and I’m not Filipino at all.
**Aline:** Well, the 0.1 percent of my heritage which is Finnish I have questions about.
**Craig:** I also have a tiny bit of Fin.
**Aline:** Maybe that’s how we’re cousins.
**Craig:** The Fin cousins.
**Aline:** We have cousins from Finland. There’s just like two kind of very talkative, complaining Finnish people sitting somewhere.
**John:** Craig that’s where you got your teeth that don’t have cavities, as you talked about.
**Aline:** Oh my god.
**John:** Your teeth came from Fins and so therefore…
**Craig:** I have god given teeth. It is the weirdest thing. I mean, I just, you know, 50 years of living you think you’d get one cavity.
**Aline:** Well it’s funny how you get the problem that you have that other people, like I have extremely hairy – well I had very hairy legs before I lasered them. But hairy legs. Hairy arms. Like three hairs under my arms. I don’t know that everyone needed to know that.
**Craig:** No.
**John:** But that’s why they pay for the extra.
**Aline:** The bonus content.
**John:** Thanks Aline.
**Aline:** Bye guys.
**Craig:** Thanks Aline. Good talking to you.
**Aline:** Thank you. All right, bye.
**John:** Bye.
Links:
* [Arclight Cinemas and Pacific Theatres Announce Won’t be Reopening](https://deadline.com/2021/04/arclight-cinemas-and-pacific-theatres-wont-be-reopening-1234732936/)
* Final Draft 12 adds the ability to import PDFs! Download [Highland 2 here for free](https://quoteunquoteapps.com/highland-2/screenwriters.php)
* Check out the Highland 2 Student License [here for professors and students](https://quoteunquoteapps.com/highland-2/students.php)
* David Graham-Caso [Thread](https://twitter.com/dgrahamcaso/status/1380000780053139457) on his brother’s experience working for Scott Rudin
* [“These Puzzles Fund Abortion”](https://fund.nnaf.org/fundraiser/3196850) via Rachel Fabi
* [Embrace the Grind](https://jacobian.org/2021/apr/7/embrace-the-grind/) post by Jacob Kaplan-Moss
* [Writer Emergency Pack kickstarter — 8,000 decks to send out](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSYTA4bLo24)
* [Get a Scriptnotes T-shirt!](https://cottonbureau.com/people/scriptnotes-podcast)
* [Gift a Scriptnotes Subscription](https://scriptnotes.supportingcast.fm/gifts) or [treat yourself to a premium subscription!](https://scriptnotes.supportingcast.fm/)
* [John August](https://twitter.com/johnaugust) on Twitter
* [Craig Mazin](https://twitter.com/clmazin) on Twitter
* [John on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/johnaugust/?hl=en)
* [Outro](http://johnaugust.com/2013/scriptnotes-the-outros) by Peter Hoopes ([send us yours!](http://johnaugust.com/2014/outros-needed))
* Scriptnotes is produced by Megana Rao and edited by Matthew Chilelli.
Email us at ask@johnaugust.com
You can download the episode [here](http://traffic.libsyn.com/scriptnotes/497standard.mp3).