The original post for this episode can be found [here](https://johnaugust.com/2023/billion-dollar-advice).
**John August:** Hey, this is John. Heads up that today’s episode has just a little bit of swearing in it. Hello and welcome. My name is John August.
**Craig Mazin:** My name is Craig Mazin.
**John:** This is Episode 603 of Scriptnotes, a podcast about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters.
Craig, you and I both know that it’s never been easy to be extraordinarily wealthy in America. You monopolize the railroads, you’re called a robber baron. You perform a few hostile takeovers on public companies, bankrupt them after laying off thousands of workers, and somehow you’re the bad guy.
**Craig:** Yeah, I know. Isn’t that a shame?
**John:** It is. Today’s billionaires I think maybe have it even worse, because they get dragged on Twitter for buying Twitter and ruining Twitter. Orcas have finally learned how to capsize their yachts. Today, I thought maybe we could offer some guidance for the billionaires and other folks who are looking for a safe and tranquil place to put their money, which is the film and television industry. This episode is for the dreamers, the builders, the doers, the absurdly rich. It’s also a history lesson in the way things used to work and could maybe work again, with independent studios making things for distributors. To help us look into all of this, we have a very, very special guest, Craig, Akela Cooper.
**Craig:** Fantastic. Hi, Akela.
**Akela Cooper:** Hello. Hi!
**Craig:** Hey!
**John:** Hey! Akela Cooper, you are a writer for film and TV. Credits include Malignant, Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, Luke Cage, and the breakout hit M3GAN.
**Craig:** That’s pronounced me and three-gan.
**Akela:** M-three-gan.
**John:** Me and three-gan.
**Akela:** M-three-gan.
**Craig:** M-three-gan. That is M-three-gan.
**John:** M-three-gan.
**Craig:** If I know one thing in this world, it’s that that movie would have done even better had it been pronounced M-three-gan. I think in some countries it may have been pronounced M-three-gan. Go on.
**Akela:** I was going to say, that’s one of those writer things, where it’s just like, no, you guys, it’s really Megan. At a certain point, I’m like, oh no, I have lost the narrative on this. It is M-three-gan.
**Craig:** It’s M-three-gan. It’s M-three-gan. There’s going to be M-four-gan. It’ll be M-three-ga-four-n. M-three-ga-four-n is what’s going to happen.
**John:** M-three-ga-four-n.
**Craig:** M-three-ga-four-n.
**John:** Akela Cooper, you are also a WGA captain, who I first met on the picket line in front of CBS. I was so excited to meet you. I think I gasped audibly, because I loved your movie. Your name I’d seen for a long time. I got to see you in person and shake your hand. Akela Cooper, welcome-
**Akela:** Thank you.
**John:** … to Scriptnotes.
**Akela:** I love that the picket line is just bringing people together. Even at the rally today, everyone was like, oh my god, I turned left, and I seen someone I haven’t seen in 10 years. I turned right and I seen someone I haven’t seen in five years. It’s like a writers reunion.
**Craig:** That’s what you think good news is. For me, I see somebody I haven’t seen in 10 years, I’m like, “Oh, no. I gotta go hide behind a very slender tree. I’m going to turn sideways and pray.”
**John:** Akela, we barely know each other. I mostly know you through your work. I was looking through IMDb, and I thought we might actually start with getting an origin story. I might guess your origin story just based on this really expensive credits list I see here of the things you’ve worked on. It feels like you worked your way up in a way that a bunch of our listeners are really aspiring to, because I look back over your 10-year arc. You’re starting off on, first credit I see a credit for is Tron: Uprising. Presumably, you were a staff writer. Was that really your first job?
**Akela:** That wasn’t my first first job. It was my first credit, which was animated. Shout-out to Christopher Mack at the Warner Bros Writers’ Workshop, may that rest in peace. Oh, wait, no, I had gotten staffed on V, the reboot of the ‘80s miniseries on ABC that went a season, and then actually, in between seasons I needed work. Chris Mack was like, “Hey, I know Disney is doing a Tron animated series. You want me to put you up for it?” “Yes.” I ended up getting a freelance actually.
That’s where I first met our lot coordinator, Bill Wolkoff, who was my boss on that. It was just the three of us in a room. There was another executive story editor who was on there. We broke this episode, and then I went off and I wrote it. Then years later, it aired. My staff writing job was on V. Unfortunately, I never got a credited episode on that, just because a whole lot of fuckery happened on that show.
**Craig:** I love that song. That’s my favorite Led Zeppelin song.
**John:** Akela, you bring up a really good point, because I misassumed that Tron: Uprising was your first job because a staff writer isn’t guaranteed a credit in IMDb or anywhere else for being a staff writer on a show. It’s only if you actually get an episode that you get a credit on that you’re necessarily going to show up there. You had a whole extra year or work before you show up in a public record for this.
From that point forward, I look through your credits here, you’re climbing that ladder. There’s a ladder. You’re climbing up it, because you go on to Grimm, Witches of East End, The 100, American Horror Story, Luke Cage, Avengers Assemble. Each of these steps, you are… I see you getting a story editor credit, which is the next rung up from staff writer. I see you getting a co-producer. I see you just rising up the ranks, supervising producer to co-AP. That’s sort of the dream process, right?
**Akela:** Yes.
**John:** You kept working up show after show. They’re all in a genre. They’re all very specific sci-fi, fantasy spaces. Was this by plan? Talk to us about how you’re moving from show to show.
**Akela:** It was by plan in that I wanted to hit that next level. As an elder millennial, I feel like I’m… Sadly, we all know this is what we’re fighting for now. I’m part of a last generation that was able to work my way up the ladder and learn each step of making a TV show as I went along. I certainly hope we win on those fronts, because I think we’re doing the next generation of writers a disservice by cutting them out of the process, as streaming has.
I was part of the CBS Writers’ Workshop and the Warner Bros Writers’ Workshop, and that’s what they told us. It’s assistant, and then hopefully you make it to the table and you become a staff writer.
Then traditionally in network you would have to do 22 episodes before the studio would bump you. On V, I had done 13. When I went to the next show, which I believe was Grimm, NBC was the one that was like, “You didn’t do 22, so we’re going to make you be staff writer all over again.” I had to do staff writer again. Then I did 22 episodes of Grimm. Then I got the story editor bump.
Just from there, I kept hitting those 22 episodes on the network side, and so that helped when I transitioned to streaming, like on Luke Cage, where at this point now I think it’s co-producer. I have the experience. You gotta give me that title.
As it was explained to me, you get the episodes, and then either the series is renewed and then you get a bump automatically in your contract, or if you go on to another show, it’s like, I’ve got all this experience behind me, you give me my bump.
There were some bumps along the way, because I do remember specifically for The 100, it was a difference of do you want the title or do you want the pay. I’m like, “You’re going to give me that fucking title, because I’ve earned it.” I actually ended up taking less pay just so I could get the title, because I knew I was going to need that title going forward, especially as a Black female writer in this business. I took the title over the money. Again, going from The 100 to Luke Cage, it helped.
**Craig:** That’s a good lesson right there in delayed gratification. Any time somebody offers you money or blank, take the or blank. There’s a reason they’re offering you money. It’s a trap. Just think it’s a trap every time, because you’re right, if you can hang on… I almost think they’re counting on people being desperate and taking the money instead, because yeah, once you get the higher title, yeah, you’re going to get more money starting next time, and then building off of that, more and more and more. Well chosen. Good on you.
**John:** The other choice I see that’s really smart here is you were not only doing television. You were also writing features this whole time through. Were you consciously working in long-form scripted, and were you always trying to make features in addition to this stuff, or were they opportunities that came up along the way? Because even before Malignant, you have Hell Fest, you have other stuff you were working on. What was your split there? You were doing TV, but you were also trying to do features?
**Akela:** I focused on TV. I ended up going to USC in the grad program, which at the time was feature-focused. Then I fell into TV. I loved TV, but I had no idea how it worked. Then I found out at USC. It’s like, this is how it works. I’m like, this is amazing. While I was focused on working my way up, I wasn’t really writing features. I was writing spec episodes. I was writing pilots. At a certain point I was also writing short stories, just to have something else in my quiver when they needed to send out samples.
It wasn’t until I got on Luke Cage that it’s like, okay, I think Luke Cage, I made co-producer of Season 1. It’s like, woo, I’ve made mid-level, which is huge. It’s a huge thing to get your foot in the door as staff writer. Then getting that bump is also huge. Then when you make it to mid-level, that’s when I was like, yeah, break out the Prosecco. At that point, I felt comfortable in that I had a body of produced work, so I didn’t have to write as many specs anymore. At that point, I was like, I’m not writing specs anymore. You can see that I’ve had episodes produced.
**John:** You weren’t writing spec television episodes, but then you could actually focus back on doing features, because everyone can always read a feature and say, oh, look at how good her writing is.
**Akela:** Yeah. It had been an itch that had been growing. It’s like, now that I have this time, and now that I am at this level in my TV career, let me go back and take some time to write features. While I was on Luke Cage, I had had two horror movie ideas that had been knocking around in my brain. I’m like, let me get these down on paper. I had a system where if the Luke Cage writers’ room started at 10 a.m., I would show up at 9 and then work for an hour before the room started, just on the outline and then eventually the script. I wrote two spec scripts that way while also working on Luke Cage. I would work at home after work as well, and sometimes on the weekends.
I went to my TV agent, ICM at the time. May that rest in peace. It got absorbed by CAA. I went to my TV agent and was like, “Hey, I’ve written some features, and I’d like to write movies also.” He introduced me to a wonderful agent on the feature side. Then he sent out those spec features. That led to a meeting at Atomic Monster. That worked out very well for me.
**John:** That’s awesome.
**Craig:** I love the fact that you were there… Anytime anyone, but particularly generations younger than John’s generation and my generation, anytime anybody is showing up early, working early, working on weekends, betting on themselves, I sing. I sing. It’s just wonderful. It’s wonderful to see, because it does pay off. It does, honestly. It’s just very exciting to hear somebody betting on themselves like that and then the way it pays off. Well done.
**Akela:** I actually knew the editor of Get Out. We’d met somewhere. I forget now. He had reached out, and it’s like, “Oh, she’s writing features now? I’m being brought on to direct this movie. Would she mind coming on board and doing a rewrite?” That’s how I got on Hell Fest.
**John:** I once had your work ethic, where I actually could get up early and do a thing. I don’t have it anymore. How did you keep energy in the tank to do this writing before your actual writing job? That to me is so tough.
**Craig:** She’s young, John. She hasn’t died inside like we have. Look at her. She’s vital.
**Akela:** Why thank you.
**John:** You’re not a teenager. You still have that young 20s energy, even a ways into your career.
**Akela:** I think I was mid-30s 2015. I am not good at math, but I think I was, because I’m 41 now. Elder millennial, as they say, or whatever the fuck they’ve designated us. They can never seem to land on anything.
**Craig:** Maybe we’ll take you. Maybe Gen X will just pick you up. You’re worth picking up.
**Akela:** At one point, I was part. It was the tail-end of Gen X. Then it’s like, no, we’re going to call you the Pepsi Generation. Then that didn’t stick. Then they forgot about us. Then millennial and Gen Z became a thing. It’s like, hey, what do we call the people between ’78 and ’83? Who the fuck knows?
**Craig:** That’s a pretty specific range there.
**Akela:** That also shifts. There are so many people who will be like, “No, it’s ’79 to ’84.” Wherever it is, I’m smack in the middle at ’81.
**Craig:** Wait a second. I have a question for you, Akela. Do you have children?
**Akela:** No.
**Craig:** There it is. There it is. There it is.
**John:** There it is.
**Craig:** That’s why she’s not dead inside.
**Akela:** As you can see behind me, Craig, I have a cat. I actually have two cats.
**Craig:** I was just guessing, based on the cat and the coolness behind you and the lack of just crap everywhere that belongs to children that put it there, even though this is mommy’s office and you told them not to go in there and they did anyway. John and I, as parents we are the worst about promoting parenthood, because all we ever do is talk about how kids are why we’re so tired. They just haul you out.
**Akela:** That is also where I get time.
**Craig:** Man, you just made one great decision after another, as far as I’m concerned.
**John:** I do look at what I see in your background of the Zoom here. Everything there is breakable by a child. That Predator statue-
**Craig:** Oh, gone.
**John:** Gone.
**Craig:** Gone.
**John:** Gone.
**Akela:** That’s Pumpkinhead.
**John:** Oh, it’s Pumpkinhead. Thank you. I couldn’t see it clearly.
**Craig:** It does look like Predator from here.
**Akela:** I have one of those too, but he is in storage right now. In the before times, when we had in-person offices in writers’ rooms, I have a box of all of my collectibles that are specifically for my office. My Predator is one of them.
**John:** I love it.
**Craig:** You’re a nerd?
**Akela:** Yes.
**Craig:** Love it.
**Akela:** Born and raised.
**Craig:** John and I are playing Dungeons and Dragons tonight, so you’re with your people.
**Akela:** I have played Dungeons and Dragons exactly once. I did have fun. It’s just like, hey, we’re going to do this campaign, and it’s going to be Sunday evening for four hours. It’s like, I wish I could, but no.
**Craig:** You just need to commit to that.
**Akela:** I’ve got a couple of people being like, “We’re going to do a one-shot at some point.”
**Craig:** Do one-shots. Exactly, do one-shots.
**John:** One-shots are perfect. That’ll be great. I want to talk to you about M3GAN, because I saw M3GAN in the theater with an audience who loved it to death. It’s just a fantastic movie and a fantastic ride. My question for you is, from its initial incarnation, did you know that tone was going to be there, that tone where it’s aware of its own absurdity and embracing it and also it’s going to have the jolts that you’re hoping for in a horror movie. When did the tone of it become clear?
**Akela:** The tone of it was Gerard. I wrote a straight horror movie.
**Craig:** Gerard Johnstone, the director?
**Akela:** Yes. The jolts and the scares, yes, those were intended. I’m happy a lot of them landed. The hilarious tone, that is Gerard’s New Zealand sense of humor. I was really, really happy when he was brought on, because it was a case of, I had seen Housebound when it was released on DVD, and I loved it. When the guys at Atomic Monster were like, “Hey, we found a director. It’s Gerard Johnstone,” I was like, “I know that guy. I saw his movie, and I liked it. Cool.” It’s one of those things where I didn’t have to go on IMDb and be like, who the fuck did they hire? He brought that sensibility. I was like, oh, wow, I love it. I love how we played together in that area, because he took what I wrote and then enhanced it in that way. It was so fun to see.
**John:** It’s always great when a writer has a happy director story, Craig.
**Craig:** It doesn’t happen frequently. Then again, so few films get made now, that one would hope that they’re all somehow happy. Can you talk us through the dance? It’s hard to write dancing. The M3GAN dance is astonishing. I feel like we’re buried in culture right now. There’s so much of it. It’s all noise, no signal. Then every now and then, something just pokes through in such a way that everyone goes, “Everybody, shut up and look at this!” In the trailer for M3GAN, when she starts dancing, there was just something about it. I’m curious how that kind of thing gets built in, even from the page, or whether it was on the page or now, and how that storytelling happens.
**Akela:** It was not. I love it. I love that it’s in there. It’s one of those things that writers are going to have to learn. You guys have dealt with production. On the feature side, when I was writing it, after I turned in the first draft, and I got notes from Atomic Monster and Blumhouse, the mandate was, “We cannot have M3GAN moving that much.” They didn’t know how they were going to build the doll and whether or not it was going to be practical or if it was going to be CG or what. It was like, no matter what, if I’m writing her moving, people are going to see dollar signs. I had to go back into the script and cut out “she runs” or she does this and she does that. It’s a lot of head movements. M3GAN will glance this way, and M3GAN will do that. I knew I could get away with that and-
**Craig:** Eyes.
**Akela:** Yeah, and her talking. As far as arms and limbs and doing all this, even the bully sequence, I wrote it like how Steven Spielberg had to visualize Jaws after Bruce the shark, which I took that name and gave it to Gemma’s first robot in honor of that. I wrote it that you would see her in quick flashes from the bully’s perspective. She would be behind a tree and then this and that.
When we cast an actress to actually physically be there, that just opened up a whole other world. I think it was a situation where, when they were doing location scouting, they really liked that office building, but then you get to that moment, and there’s this long hallway between M3GAN and David, and the question during production was like, how is she going to close that gap? It was like, what if she throws them off some way, somehow? It was like, okay, how is she going to do that? I believe Gerard said the idea of her dancing came to him at 3 a.m. in a dream.
**John:** Great.
**Craig:** Sometimes that works that way. Man, I wish we could show everyone that enjoys movies and television how often some of the things we love come out of the most mundane problem solving, not even problem solving of the romanticized version of how do we make this character interesting? It’s more like, we got to get the doll from here to there really quickly, in a way that makes logical sense, so that the guy down there doesn’t just go, “Bye.” What are we going to do? Then out of these things sometimes comes this fascinating magic.
**Akela:** I remember when I got to see a rough cut. It was a rough cut. They didn’t even have the ending on there. I was like, “What the hell?” Then I just started laughing with everybody else. I was like, “This is odd, but I think it works. Am I crazy? I think it works?”
**Craig:** Whoever the choreographer was, hats off, because I would watch it, and I don’t think my body could do that. There was something about the [indiscernible 00:20:25] that was just so bizarre. It’s interesting that you say that so much of the tone comes from the director. The movie to me only works insofar as I take it seriously. The fun parts are fun, and the campy parts are campy, but if there isn’t something real holding it all together, then it’s just not there. It’s just there’s nothing there. It’s a very ’80s movie in that regard. There were a lot of movies in the ’80s that were horror movies but funny, but horror movies. It was nice. It was such a great throwback to that era.
**Akela:** It was the same thing with Malignant. Obviously, when you’re writing, you’re going to put fun moments in there, because you don’t want it to be super dour. I had jokey moments and stuff like that, but the tone of M3GAN, yeah, that was Gerard looking, because he even hired his friend, who is an actor, is the cop who’s talking to Gemma and is like, “Yeah, that boy’s ear was ripped off and tossed far.” Then he starts laughing. It’s like, “I shouldn’t have done that.” That was an improv on the day. That was Gerard being like, “That was awesome. Let’s keep that.”
As far as Malignant goes, I didn’t sit down at the keyboard like I’m going to write a Giallo horror movie. It was just like, I’m just going to write a straight horror movie. Which characters can I use for humor? The cops. The cops. They wanted more humor, because I think in my original draft, her sister was a psychologist. Again, serious and straight. Then she became an actress towards production. It’s just for more of that humor that James wanted in that, because he very specifically I think wanted to make a Giallo horror film. I did not know that when I was writing it though.
**Craig:** It worked.
**John:** It worked. Congratulations on these films exist. Let’s segue to talking about how we can make movies and TV in a better and different way. Way back, Craig, in 2013, you and I did what was called A Young Billionaire’s Guide to Hollywood. Craig, you said, “This is not a good way to spend a billion dollars if your goal is to have $10 billion.”
**Craig:** I stand by that statement. That is correct.
**John:** A hundred percent. I would say that neither is building a rocket ship or investing in an F1 racing team. You do it because you want to do it. I think if you are a person with a ton of money who wants to throw a ton of money at something, throwing it at Hollywood is not the worst idea.
**Craig:** You’re right, although it does seem lately that large corporations have been investing in Hollywood to try and make 10 times their return, which has been part of the problem.
**John:** It has been a large part of the problem.
**Craig:** Because you’re absolutely right, it used to be, and this will tie into my One Cool Thing when we get to the end of the show, that very wealthy people would buy sports teams because they were very wealthy and they loved sports. If you could break even or make a little bit of money, fantastic, because the point is, I own a sports team. Mark Cuban’s like, “I’m going to buy Mavericks. I don’t care. I love basketball, and that’s how it’s going to go.” What you wouldn’t get so much is the AT&T buys the Yankees because they believe they can leverage it to synergies and blah blah blah. It does seem like some of the money that’s been moving around in our business hasn’t gotten the message that maybe this isn’t just about pure profit.
**John:** You’re talking about corporations, giant corporations swallowing each other to do a thing. I’m talking about, and this is actually something that really comes out of the genre area, is that once upon a time, we used to have independent studios who were making things. We still have some of those in the film side. We have Legendary, which I guess is now not as independent. We have A24, which has done really well for itself, Annapurna. We have Alcon.
**Craig:** There was Annapurna.
**John:** There was Annapurna. Annapurna was a thing. We have Alcon. We have Bold. We have these companies. A lot of times, those film companies are making their mark by producing less expensive genre pictures that do really, really well. In the case of M3GAN, it was a universal release. It could’ve been at A24. A lot of other places could’ve made that movie. It was not an expensive movie to make.
**Craig:** Blumhouse.
**John:** There’s Blumhouse.
**Akela:** Blumhouse, yeah.
**Craig:** That’s what Blumhouse is.
**John:** I think there’s a model for that. Also, I want to reach back to, once upon a time there used to be TV that was done that same way too. We used to have Carsey-Werner. We used to have Stephen Cannell. They weren’t bankrolled by the studios. They brought in their own money. They were able to make things and sell them off to companies.
**Craig:** Sort of, because those, you could make so much money back then. There are few people still making that kind of money now, like the Shonda type money. She makes her company. The studios that made television, Paramount and so on and so forth, would back your show. It would become this massive hit. Stephen Cannell had so many of those, or Aaron Spelling. Then those people would end up with a billion dollars and be like, “I don’t need Paramount now. I’m just going to do it myself.” They had been funded by the studios paying them a lot.
**John:** Things started in a place. Here’s where I think there may be an opportunity now. Just today, as we’re recording this, news came out that Warner’s is negotiating to sell some of the HBO content to Netflix. It tells you that this model of, we’re only going to make things for ourselves and we’re going to keep them inside our little walled garden, may be changing. People may be starting to make stuff for other people, which is really good news, I think, down the road. Akela?
**Akela:** Or it’s like we’ve come back around to what worked before, because back in that area, Fox eventually had Fox Network, but Fox Studio would still sell shows to CBS or ABC and vice versa. Then the goal was, hey, we’re going to get 100 episodes. Then it became 88. Then we’re going to sell it in a syndication, so that you can watch it when you’re at the gym on a fucking treadmill. Supernatural would run in perpetuity on TBS.
It was a system that worked. People made a living. You had your Stephen Cannells and Dick Wolfs. Also, as a middle-class writer, you could make a living, because guess what? You were getting residuals when they sold it into syndication.
**Craig:** You’re absolutely right. The headline, with the Captain Obvious Statement of the year, said, “According to sources, this,” meaning Warner Bros selling some HBO content to Netflix, “is a financial move.” What? Really?
**Akela:** I’m shocked. I’m shocked.
**Craig:** It’s not friendship is magic? This is fascinating to me. It’s really interesting that it’s happening with HBO, because HBO never was engaged in syndication. HBO was always walled off because it was funded entirely by subscriptions through paid television, and those subscriptions were beefed up through the arrangements with carriers, cable companies and satellite companies.
The ritual suicide that our business has engaged in over the last five years, to eliminate all those structures and make sure that everybody can lose as much money as Netflix does, has created a system where that doesn’t even happen anymore. It does make sense. Look, I don’t know if my shows are going to end up there. It doesn’t matter to me, as long as people watch what I do. I don’t see a problem with this. I guess the first thing they’re going to be throwing out there is Insecure. They’re going to put Insecure on Netflix. So many more people are going to watch Insecure on Netflix than ever watched it on HBO. I have no doubt about this. None.
**John:** It’s not just though that the streamers are saying, the stuff we made for our service will actually license to other places. If you’re Sony, this is really good news, because Sony is one of the few places that’s left that does not have its own streamer. If people are more willing to pick up a show that is owned outside of a service, that’s great news. The opportunities to take things that were made just for one place and actually get them monetized other places, it’s going to help everybody out.
**Craig:** Let’s remember that this was how it was even working five years ago, because Netflix was running Friends. Warner Bros had no problem licensing Friends to Netflix and making a gazillion dollars off of it. Then everybody was like, wait, why are we giving all of this stuff to Netflix and building Netflix up, when we could be doing this ourselves? Missing the fact that Netflix was paying them money for something that no longer cost them money to have. We spent all the money required to make Friends. It’s over. Our Friends costs for this year will be zero, and our income will be all of the money that Netflix sends us for Friends. This does make sense.
We will slowly but surely reinvent the wheel. They will call it something new. Eventually, they’re going to figure out how to take all these channels and conglomerate them into networks. We’ll get back to three networks. Nothing new under the sun.
**John:** Absolutely. There will be true streaming services like Netflix, like we’re used to, where there aren’t commercials. Then there’ll be the commercial version of Netflix. Then there will also be Crackle and Pluto and all the other services that are AVOD and selling ads. It’s okay. It’s okay for people to watch things where they watch them and where they end up. That’s fine.
Here’s my pitch though. I think this is an opportunity for the same people who are now trying to make the next deal with Shonda or Greg Berlanti or Ryan Murphy. If you’re a person with a ton of money, why don’t you go to Shonda and say, “Hey, rather than making that deal at that streamer, why don’t we just make a company? We’ll make all the stuff ourselves and license them out to these places.”
**Craig:** You already lost Ryan, because he went to-
**Akela:** He’s back at Disney.
**John:** He’s back at Disney apparently.
**Akela:** He’s back at Fox by way of Disney.
**Craig:** Disney-Fox.
**John:** Disney-Fox.
**Craig:** Fisney.
**John:** Akela, someone comes up to you with this offer. Do you do it? You have experience in film and TV. Would you?
**Akela:** Yes. If someone is going to be like, “Hey, I’m going to give you x billions of dollars.” Am I making my own network, or am I just making shows?
**John:** You’re Carsey-Werner.
**Craig:** Production company.
**John:** You’re making shows. You’re a production company. You’d do that?
**Akela:** Yes, in a heartbeat. We all have friends who have cool fucking ideas that do not get on air because of the bullshit way this industry works now. It’s so frustrating. It’s so frustrating. I’ve had this happen. I had this happen before the Strike, where it was like, streaming service not to be named was like, “Oh my god, we love your original idea.” I’m like, “Great, I’ve got heat on me. This is going to happen.” Then they took a week, and they came back, and it’s like, “We don’t know if it’s a sure thing, so can you go get a director and an actor attached to this?” It’s like, no.
**Craig:** Do the work of a production company, but you’re not going to be a production company. You’re not going to own anything, but do all the things that owners do. By the way, even if you don’t have any friends at all, which I’m working my way towards that-
**Akela:** Oh my gosh.
**Craig:** Even if you have one show that you make that is a big hit, if you own it, you are going to make vastly more money than if you don’t. The trick of it is, in the old days there was deficit financing of shows. Shows cost more than the license fees that they received from the networks to air them.
Paramount produces a show, and every episode costs, I don’t know, let’s just say a million dollars. It wasn’t that, but let’s just say a million. CBS says, “We’ll give you 500 grand for the rights to air that.” They’re losing a half a million dollars per episode until it hits that magic amount quantity, 100 back then, where you could sell them to syndication, and then boom, all profit all day long, and in perpetuity. If you’re a show like Seinfeld, it never ends. Deficit financing things is tricky for individuals to do, but yeah, in today’s day and age, where a lot of these shows are not producing 22 episodes…
**Akela:** If someone came to me, I would be like, obviously, I’m going to make my show, because now I don’t have to listen to nopes I don’t want to listen to. Again, my friends who have cool ideas that I would love to see as shows, that are different, that bring in different perspectives. It’s like, fuck it, let’s just throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. That’s what everyone else is doing, even though they try to pretend that by going into the past and figuring out what worked before and just repeating that until that horse has been beyond beaten to death, I would be different in that it’s like, I’m going to take a risk, and I know it’s a risk. I’m not going to fire myself if it doesn’t work.
**Craig:** That’s absolutely true.
**John:** Akela, part of what you’re describing might also be, you might want to do a process where rather than shooting an entire season, you might want to actually shoot an episode and see if it works.
**Akela:** What?
**John:** You might actually want to test that. Maybe we could figure out how to do that too.
**Akela:** What would we even call-
**John:** The flyer.
**Akela:** … that thing?
**John:** What would we call the one episode that’s-
**Akela:** If you’re getting in a plane and you’re guiding it, it’s like piloting something?
**John:** Like a pilot? Oh, a pilot?
**Craig:** No, no, no, I hate that. Let’s call it something better. Let’s call it a winger, because you’re winging it. It’s a winger.
**John:** It’s a winger.
**Craig:** The winger wasn’t great, so we’re not picking it up. This is where late-stage capitalism goes. We’ll make everything a pilot. Everything’s now a pilot. The whole season’s a pilot.
Listen. I don’t want to over-romanticize. The old system made an enormous amount of crap. Television was just awful for a long time. It was really a lot of crap. A lot of corny crap. They would make all these pilots. The pilot system, by all accounts, was pretty demeaning. It was this horrible rat race where everyone’s chewing at each other to be the last show that’s picked up from the pilot stuff. The fact that a lot of people were employed doesn’t negate the fact that the people that were in charge of picking pilots and then putting those shows together were kind of crappy shows, were subject to horrible amounts of testing. Networks are still doing people turning dials up and down. “I don’t like her. Her jawbone’s too pointy.” She’s gone. Next. Boom. It wasn’t all sugar and rainbows.
**John:** Craig, there’s a difference between a pilot and pilot season. Pilot season was terrible, because it was [inaudible 00:35:15]. It was artificial scarcity of actors and directors and talent and locations. The idea of being able to see what the thing is before you had to make the full thing is a huge benefit. We had the Game of Thrones guys on to talk about their pilot process and how much they learned shooting a pilot of that show, which was a godsend for them. We could take the best things about the previous system and the best things about the new system and marry them together, I hope, to make something better.
**Craig:** That sounds like a brilliant idea. Let’s do that.
**Akela:** Again, it was also a time where people would just try things. Occasionally, you would get something like The X-Files. That worked. I don’t think at the time that the studio was like, “Oh my god, this is amazing.” It was like, “It works. Slap it on Fridays and see what happens.”
**Craig:** Absolutely. Seinfeld and Cheers come to mind as two shows that were abject failures at the start, just full-on fucking failures, and then they weren’t. Once they caught on, and that’s a lot of television to make, sweating bullets, hoping that people finally catch on. Then they do. There were risks that occurred, and there were rewards that occurred. There was a lot of middle-of-the-roadism also, for sure. There was just some common sense that had been picked up over the years. Pilot season only existed because of cars.
**Akela:** They were sold in the fall.
**Craig:** They were sold in the fall, so that’s when the new show started.
**Akela:** Cars were sold year-round, but the new models would come out.
**Craig:** The new models would come out in September, and the car companies needed new shows to run the ads on. That’s why we ended up with what we ended up with. All that’s gone out the door. It will never go back to what it was, but you can feel…
It was almost like everyone looked around and said, “Nothing about what Netflix is doing makes sense, but obviously, it must make sense, so let’s do what they’re doing, because it couldn’t be that none of that makes sense.” Then they all started doing it. Then they were like, “Oh, no, it doesn’t make sense. It actually doesn’t make sense. We should stop and start going back to stuff that makes sense,” which they are now painfully doing. It seems like there is a painful course correction going on here. The pain is entirely self-inflicted by this industry.
**Akela:** It is. Everyone got enthralled by the idea of subscribers. I am of average intelligence. I will admit that. Sometimes things just do not make sense to me, like NFTs. What the fuck?
**Craig:** NFTs are stupid, and people started to realize that.
**Akela:** Has no one considered that if everyone has a streaming platform, there’s only so many subscribers to go around? What do they think is going to happen? Now we know. It’s imploding.
**Craig:** Now we know. If the only way you can keep your business afloat is by constantly growing your subscriber base, you’re going to run out.
**John:** You’re going to run into a hard cap there.
**Craig:** You’re going to run out. It just doesn’t work. Also, do you remember how expensive cable used to be if you threw HBO and Showtime on there? Oh my god. The bill was 250 bucks a month or something. Now it’s like, if I spend 15 and 15 and 15 and 15 and 15, I can get what I used to get for $300? Yeah, I’ll do that. They devalued their own stuff. They busted all the partnerships they have that created structure.
Again, not sugarcoating the way the past was, but at least from a financial point of view, none of this stuff makes sense to me. I’ve never understood it. I’ve always felt like, I don’t have to. It’s a little bit like I do what I do. Billionaires do what billionaires do. I don’t want a billion dollars. Let them go do that. It does feel like some obvious NFT style what is catching up to us all.
**John:** I see two listener questions here, which I think might be fantastic for our guest here today. Drew, can you help us out?
**Drew Marquardt:** Adam in London writes, “I’m wondering if you have any advice for what I call freeze-frame details in screenplays? These are the kind of details that viewers will only see on a second watch of the film. They might even have to slow down the film or freeze-frame it to see it properly. I’m thinking of the kind of little clues in movies like Hereditary or the subliminal flashes of Tyler Durden in Fight Club. These moments shouldn’t really register for viewers the first time around, so is it odd to signpost them to the reader in the script? Any advice on how you’d word such a moment?”
**Akela:** I usually do signpost them for the reader, just because again, having gone through this process, I’m not going to say executives have gotten lazier, but a lot of people don’t really read scripts, they skim them. Hopefully, your director is going to read it, but you run the risk of things being cut if they’re like, “Oh, we need to get the page count down,” or, “We need to get to this event faster.” I will underline or bold some things in the script, because it forces the reader, the executive, to look at that. This is necessary. If I need to, I can’t remember what script I did this on, but I will be like, hey, this is important.
There was a script recently, pre-Strike, pens down, but yeah, I had a moment where I’m like, “I’m going to highlight this. It will be important later.” Then later on it’s like, “Hey, remember that time I said this was going to be important? Here’s why.” I just want to make sure that the reader, before I’m even given those notes, knows that that moment is important. It’s more of an executive thing than a director thing, because again, I you’ve got a good director, they’re going to read the whole thing. I do highlight those moments however I can in my voice. I think the listener should highlight them in their voice.
**John:** Adam’s also asking about Easter eggs, so things that you might not notice that very first time you’re watching the movie. On a second viewing of Malignant, you might spot some little thing that you didn’t see the first time. That’s maybe not crucial to the initial plot, but it’s rewarding. Akela, can you think of any examples of that where it’s a piece of logic or a piece of something that you’ve put in a script that is maybe not essential for the first viewing of the film, but you need to make sure it’s there for the story to track and make sense?
**Akela:** Again, that would be in the script that I’m currently writing.
**John:** You’re doing it then.
**Akela:** Yes. I don’t say it’s an Easter egg, but in a TV episode, and again, I can’t remember, it was like, on second viewing, the audience should notice this. I have written that in TV scripts, I know.
**John:** I’ve written exactly that, that wording too. Craig, for what you’ve been working on, have there been any examples of things where you’re writing something which you know the viewer’s not going to really catch this the first time through, but will it be meaningful the second time, or that only in a later episode we realize that this line of dialogue is important.
**Craig:** If it’s important, it’s important. That’s how I think about it. If I needed to be in there, either for super fans or people who are obsessive, then it’s going in. Like both of you, I will call it out, so that it’s understood that it’s not just a random detail that should have the same weight as everything else. It is important, even though it seems maybe like it’s not.
Now, there are things that emerge almost always through production, because you capture something, and you’re not quite sure what to do with it, or you get an idea, and you’re like, “Hey, you, go over there, shoot this thing. I don’t know if I’m going to use it or not, but I might.” Then you do, because it’s good. It’s interesting.
One example from Chernobyl, this moment in the episode where it concentrates on the liquidators, the soldiers who went to go clean up Chernobyl, there’s a moment where one of the soldiers sings this traditional Russian song, which lo and behold, is sad. I think it’s called Black Crow. It’s beautiful. It wasn’t anything that we knew about. I didn’t know about it. Johan didn’t know about it. One of the actors was Russian and was just singing it one day, because he said this whole place where we were shooting reminded him of that. I was like, “Here we go.” Sometimes, those things happen.
Because that was a moment where someone was singing something in Russian, we had no expectation that anyone was going to think it was anything other than just some sort of, there’s Russian singing happening now, but not, oh, the lyrics are incredibly poignant and relevant. We just decided screw it, if people are interested, they’ll research it up, and they did. It’s a combination of happy accidents or things that you just, they’re important to you, and that’s enough.
**John:** Yeah. Drew, another question for us?
**Drew:** IMS in Toronto says, “I’m an outlier who doesn’t particularly care about character names. As an audience member, I always seem to forget them or confuse them, and as a writer, I try to avoid them as much as I can. I’m currently writing a story set in the near future, and I refer to all my characters by their profession, you know, reporter, doctor, professor, etc. Since the characters in the story don’t really know each other, there’s no good reason for them to refer to each other by name either. I believe most viewers wouldn’t even realize none of them have proper names. However, a reader told me I should definitely conventionally name the characters for the sake of producers. He says that being an unknown writer, I should avoid straying too much from established standards. He also says that should the script ever get produced, actors might be turned off by the fact that they be playing engineer versus a cool character name. I think that not having a proper character name plays well into a heightened futuristic vibe and vision for the show, but what’s your instinct on this?”
**Akela:** If you believe that in your future world, names are not important, that needs to become a part of the world. That is why they are just called engineer or doctor. Play that up so that the reader understands, oh, this is a world where no one has a proper name. Then you’re not getting notes from executives or actors, because my first thought was like, man, so many actors are going to be like, “What the hell? No,” if only for those IMDb credits, because even now, we’re told, even if it’s just someone who has one line, don’t just put bartender or lady coming out of the bathroom. Give that person a name so that it’s a human being on the IMDb credit.
**John:** I always love that IMDb credit which is like “guy pissing at urinal.”
**Craig:** It’s a great credit.
**John:** The best.
**Craig:** That credit is evocative.
**Akela:** I am someone who’s obsessed with character names. I literally a couple of days ago called my mom, because I’m writing personally, pencils down, something for myself, and it’s set in my hometown. I needed names from the ’90s. I was like, “Hey, can you go get my brother’s yearbook and just start taking photos of his classmates?” I build names off of that.
It is intriguing. That could also be his Wes Anderson thing. We all know a Wes Anderson movie when we fucking see one. If his thing is I don’t want character names, these characters are their professions, that’s a thing. That’s his thing. Again, just make it part of his specific aesthetic in that world, and I think you’ll be fine.
**Craig:** I agree. I actually love this idea. Let me tell you what I don’t love. What I don’t love is anyone who says any version of, “Because you’re an unknown writer, you should not do following.” Fuck that. You’re saying I shouldn’t do a thing that known writers do? If you’re successful and you do this thing, I, being not successful, shouldn’t emulate what successful people do. The thing that successful people do very successfully is not give a fuck about stuff like that. It’s an interesting choice.
It worries me that it’s a show as opposed to a movie, just because 20 episodes in, I do want to get to know people a little bit more intimately, but my guess is you would. At some point, you would. If we’re just talking about a script… Even for the actors, I think when the actor realizes, oh yeah, by the way, Pacino signed on to be Doctor, so it’s okay that we’re coming to you for Lawyer. I think it’s a really interesting thing.
I don’t know who the reader is. I don’t care about crap like that. I’m not interested in readers giving that kind of input. Story input, character input, flow of narrative, all that stuff. It’s when readers put on the “if I ran a studio” hat. You don’t. In fact, your name in my movie would be Reader, so yeah, do that part.
**Akela:** It is interesting. Sorry, I didn’t realize this was a show. I thought it was a movie.
**Craig:** He said show at some point, or she.
**Akela:** They.
**Craig:** They.
**Akela:** It was a show. That would be an interesting thing. Also, what happens when you have two doctors?
**Craig:** You have Tall Doctor and Short Doctor.
**Akela:** Yes, you have to start getting into descriptors. I’m fascinated with the person who asked the question was like, “The characters don’t know each other, so they don’t really address each other by name,” which okay, but if you have Doctor and Engineer talking about Architect, what are they saying?
**Craig:** That’s where I’m not quite sure, since it’s set in the future, even though near future, if this is just a convention that’s occurred societally or if it’s something that’s specific about this other planet or if it’s just that thing where this person says the characters in the story don’t really know each other. There’s no good reason for them to refer to each other by name either. I should say as an aside, one of my pet peeves is when people are constantly using each other’s names with them.
**John:** Their names when they wouldn’t be, yeah.
**Craig:** We just don’t do that. Sometimes I realize, oh my god, I’ve made it to the end of the script, and no one ever said this person’s name out loud, because they didn’t have to. At some point, we do need to know what it is. It would be one thing if IMS said, “They’re going to be called Reporter, Doctor, Professor, and they will never have a name beyond that.” That’s a super hard choice to make.
**John:** It’s a choice.
**Craig:** It’s a choice. If the theory is at some point we’ll learn their names, and actually that’s kind of a big deal, that’s fascinating. Then learning their name becomes really interesting, because when we find out someone’s name that we’ve been talking to or having a connection with, it’s a moment. It’s an interesting moment.
**John:** Absolutely. I agree with everything that’s been said. I think what we need to remember about a name though is it’s not just a thing, handy little handle for our reader, it’s also how people in the world can refer to each other. I think IMS is going to run into problems where they need to talk about that person to a third party, and you just have no way to do that.
Watching a Game of Thrones, most of the time I could not remember any of those characters’ names. We have shorthand in the house, but the tall guy, or the guy who’s traveling with her. You figure out that kind of stuff. You have ways to talk about people. You end up inventing names for people, even if the show itself does not give the person a name. They’re going to be finding ways to identify those people. Let’s do our One Cool Things. Craig, I see you’ve added a One Cool Thing, so I don’t want to take it away from you here.
**Craig:** You wouldn’t, but I don’t always have a One Cool Thing. I like that now it’s special. It takes me forever to watch things. I have been just getting the quiet, passive-aggressive stink eye from Rob McElhenney for months now, because I hadn’t watched his documentary show on Hulu called Welcome to Wrexham.
Welcome to Wrexham is the documentary story of the English football team, the footy club, that he and Ryan Reynolds purchased in Wrexham, Wales, and the story of this team that’s buried in a fairly low-level tier of English football, struggling to make it to get promoted to the next level up.
Finally, I couldn’t handle it anymore, and so I did it. I was going to do it anyway. You watch something for a friend. When you start, it’s a little bit homeworky. I was so in on this thing, within, I don’t know, seven minutes. I was so in on it. It is so well done. It is so charming. It is so sweet. It is not at all what you think it’s going to be. Yes, there is some fun bits of football, but I don’t care about soccer. I’ve never cared about soccer, and furthermore, I never will. What I am obsessed with, stories of economically depressed towns in the United Kingdom. Boy, do I-
**John:** Billy Elliot, yeah, right there.
**Craig:** Oh, Billy Elliot, how you claim my heart, or In the Name of the Father, or any movie that deals with the economically… The Full Monty. There’s so many. What a genre. I love that genre. This is true. This is real people. It focuses on a certain kind of segment of English society that we just generally don’t see. We see lords and ladies, and we see the royalty, and this is something else.
First of all, Rob and Ryan are both, not only on television, but in person, just lovely human beings. They’re just quality humans. What you see is what you get. They’re authentic, and you can tell. What they’ve done for this town and what has happened to this town is pretty remarkable. It is a delight. It is funny at times. It is exhilarating at times and very, very sweet always.
As a kicker for those of you who are Scriptnotes fans, they sent over a gentleman named Humphrey Ker to be their emissary. Humphrey is an Englishman. For those of you who are Scriptnotes fans, he is Megan Ganz’s husband, so Megan Ganz, who’s been on our show and who’s a wonderful person. I met Humphrey when we were all in those early, heady days of Mythic Quest, figuring out what that show was. Humphrey was on staff there as well and also played a part on the show. Big recommendation for Welcome to Wrexham. It is on Hulu. There are a lot of episodes.
**John:** There are a lot of episodes. There are a lot of episodes.
**Craig:** There are a lot of episodes, but they’re 25, 30 minutes long. They go down easy, quick, and you do not need to like either soccer or Britain.
**John:** Or human beings.
**Craig:** Really, or humans. If you like Rob and Ryan, I think you’ll be okay. In fact, if you like Rob or Ryan, you’ll be fine.
**John:** One of the two. A difference between you and me, Craig, so Rob is your friend, Ryan is my friend. I watched it the day it came out and then texted him.
**Craig:** Yeah, because you’re literally a fucking Eagle Scout. You are literally an Eagle Scout. Do you know how many badges I earned as a Boy Scout? Guess.
**John:** Two?
**Craig:** Zero, because I was never a Boy Scout, nor would I ever be. How dare you.
**John:** You should’ve been. My One Cool Thing is shorter and simpler. An article by Clare Watson in Nature called Evolution Keeps Making Crabs, And Nobody Knows Why.
**Craig:** What kind of crabs are we talking about here?
**John:** You know evolution. Evolution, things adapted to their environment. They change. You have trees of things that grow out. You see, oh, these would be all the crabs. For some reason, crabs have independently developed many, many times. They are not related in ways that they should be related. They will develop claws and pincers in ways that they work. There’s true crabs and not true crabs. There’s something about the biomechanical form of crabs that is-
**Craig:** I’m literally laughing every single sentence that you say the word crabs.
**John:** I say crabs. It’s great.
**Craig:** Every single one is funny. Keep going.
**John:** There’s something about crabs, Craig.
**Craig:** Yes, there is.
**John:** They just get under your skin. They’re an irritant.
**Craig:** You keep scratching at this, you’re going to get to something important.
**John:** You keep scratching, I’m going to get to something good here. How they work in multiple environments has given them some sort of evolutionary advantage. We keep coming back to crabs for some reason. I think at some point, we’ll be visited by an alien species, and they will probably be crab-like, because it just seems to be a very effective form.
**Craig:** Have you seen the South Park episode where they go underground and meet the crab people?
**John:** I do not remember a crab people episode of that.
**Craig:** Spectacular.
**John:** I’m sure. I’m sure it’s spectacular.
**Craig:** Crab people. Crab people. The headline here, we’ve discussed many times that people who write articles do not write the headlines that go on the articles. I can’t give Clare Watson credit for this. Clare Watson wrote the article that you’re referring to here. Somebody at sciencealert.com wrote this headline, Evolution Keeps Making Crabs, And Nobody Knows Why. That’s awesome. Nobody?
**John:** Nobody.
**Craig:** What? Where are all these crabs coming from, evolution? This is also delightful.
**John:** It is delightful. You look through the tree here, and you see, oh, why did it happen this way? We don’t know.
**Craig:** Nobody knows.
**John:** Crabs.
**Craig:** Crabs. People.
**John:** Akela, what do you have for us?
**Akela:** I guess overall it’s Arnold Schwarzenegger.
**Craig:** That works.
**Akela:** I’m a fan of documentaries, and I recently watched the Arnold doc on Netflix. Also just being an ’80s baby, Arnold Schwarzenegger was huge in my household. My dad is a huge Conan the Barbarian fan, so he watched it all the time. I love Terminator, Commando, Predator. We’ve talked about Predator.
**Craig:** Commando.
**Akela:** I’m just fascinated by that era. I’m also in the process of reading this book called The Last Action Heroes: The Triumphs, Flops, and Feuds of Hollywood’s Kings of Carnage, which is basically about that period in the ’80s between Schwarzenegger, Stallone-
**Craig:** Stallone.
**Akela:** … Van Dam, Chuck Norris, Jackie Chan. It is fascinating to just see behind the curtain of that and how much Stallone and Schwarzenegger actually hated each other. It was basically like evolutionary warfare. They were each other’s inspiration. I think after Stallone did Rambo, Schwarzenegger was like, “I need a movie like that.” Commando came out.
**Craig:** Commando happened. Did they talk about how Stallone ended up in, I think it was Stop or My Mom Will Shoot?
**Akela:** No, I haven’t gotten to that part yet. I am on-
**Craig:** It’s incredible.
**Akela:** He has just directed Staying Alive.
**Craig:** All I’ll say is, Schwarzenegger is an evil genius. That’s all I’m going to say. Let’s see if they get to it. It’s spectacular.
**Akela:** Oh my god, you watch the documentaries. I am on TikTok, and so sometimes there will be clips from old movies. There’s this interview with Schwarzenegger and Jesse Ventura, which I think is part of the behind the scenes on Predator. Jesse Ventura was like, “I went into wardrobe and I found out that my bicep was one inch bigger than Schwarzenegger’s. I was bragging about it.” Then Schwarzenegger was like, “Good, because I went in before him and I told the wardrobe lady to measure him and lie and say his bicep was bigger than mine, so that then I could go and bet him a bottle of champagne that it wasn’t true.” He is a mastermind. It’s so weird how cunning and charming Arnold Schwarzenegger is. He has done awful things. In the documentary, he actually owns up to all of that. That man’s mind is like a steep trap. It’s since he was a child too.
**Craig:** I will say that the bicep trick, it’s almost exactly what he does to Stallone, except on a scale that is so terrifying, and that led to an entire movie being made that should’ve never been made. It’s astonishing.
**John:** I love it.
**Akela:** I look forward to that. That’s what my Cool Thing right now is. Again, I just love ’80s action movies, ’80s horror movies.
**Craig:** Have you ever seen the little best of moments from Arnold Schwarzenegger’s DVD commentary on Conan the Barbarian?
**Akela:** A long time ago.
**Craig:** John, have you ever seen it?
**John:** You’ve talked me through them. It sounds amazing. I think over D and D we’ve talked about it. It’s great.
**Craig:** It’s so special. “Look at [indiscernible 01:00:27]. Look at him. Now he’s turning into a snake.” He’s just saying what you’re looking at. “Now he’s drinking the liquid.”
**John:** It’s descriptions for the visually impaired and blind. I love it.
**Craig:** It’s incredible. He’s so drunk when he’s doing it. He’s so clearly shit-faced.
**Akela:** One of the great things years ago was the musicals on YouTube of his movies, like Commando the musical. Oh my god.
**Craig:** I gotta check that out.
**Akela:** You have to watch this. It’s hilarious.
**Craig:** Love Commando.
**John:** We’ll add it to the list.
**Craig:** “Hey Bennett, why don’t you let off a little steam?”
**Akela:** It really is them singing. It’s like, “Bennett, John, I’m here again.”
**Craig:** What is his name? It’s John. What is it again? It’s a name that a man with a strong Austrian accent would not have.
**John:** Perfect.
**Craig:** He plays John Matrix. That’s his name, John Matrix, you know, a very popular name in [crosstalk 01:01:25], John Matrix.
**John:** Matrix.
**Craig:** “I’m John Matrix.”
**Akela:** It’s just at some point, he was so successful. People were just like, “We don’t care how he got the accent.”
**Craig:** It doesn’t matter.
**Akela:** It makes no sense how he has any of the jobs he does.
**John:** Love it.
**Craig:** Just the armory bunker that he has in Commando alone, which I loved. I loved that. I was like, “He’s got a special secret room full of all the weapons in the world.” Anyway, that’s our show.
**John:** That’s our show. Scriptnotes is produced by Drew Marquardt.
**Craig:** Wahoo!
**John:** It’s edited by Matthew Chilelli.
**Craig:** Woo-woo!
**John:** Our outro is by Nora Beyer. If you have an outro, you can send us a link to ask@johnaugust.com. That’s also the place where you can send questions. You’ll find the show notes for this episode and all episodes at johnaugust.com. That’s also where you can find the transcripts and sign up for our weekly newsletter called Inneresting, which has lots of links to things about writing.
We have T-shirts and they’re great. You can find them at Cotton Bureau. Craig, I forgot to send you, I think I did text you the new Scriptnotes T-shirt. Did I send it to you?
**Craig:** I don’t think you did.
**John:** You can picture the CBS Special Presentation, right?
**Craig:** (sings)
**John:** Imagine that with the word Scriptnotes coming in and that color pattern.
**Craig:** All I want to wear. Just get me an entire wardrobe of that.
**John:** They’re absolutely gorgeous. You will love them.
**Craig:** That was before your time, Akela, I’m guessing, the CBS Special Presentation intro music? (sings)
**Akela:** I think so, yeah.
**Craig:** That was such dopamine for ’70s kids.
**John:** Oh my god.
**Craig:** That meant something fucking incredible was about to go down.
**John:** Was about to happen.
**Craig:** Whether it was like, it’s Rikki-Tikki-Tavi or it’s whatever, it’s some animated awesomeness or some just incredible thing.
**John:** Not a Bond movie, because CBS didn’t have the Bond movies, but something great like that was going to be on. So good.
**Craig:** Something awesome. It would spin. Crack. Crack for ‘70s kids.
**John:** So good. So good. You can sign up to become a Premium member at scriptnotes.net, where you get all the back-episodes and bonus segments, like the one we should record, although we’re running out of time. Akela, are we willing to talk about the writers’ programs you went through before you started your staff writing career? Because I’m really curious how those went for you and what you think about the changes there.
**Akela:** Yes.
**John:** Akela Cooper, thank you so much for coming on Scriptnotes. It was an absolute delight to get to talk to you about Schwarzenegger and genre and how to change the film and television industry.
**Craig:** Thank you.
**John:** You’re an absolute hero [indiscernible 01:03:52].
**Akela:** Thank you. This was fun.
[Bonus Segment]
**John:** Akela, so you, before you started as a staff writer on V, you had gone through film school. You’d also done two different writing programs. Can you tell us about what you learned in those different programs and how they helped or did not help you get started as a television writer?
**Akela:** They both helped tremendously. As somebody who’s a little bit socially awkward, I did the CBS writers’ program first, and it was really helpful in helping to set expectations for staff writers when we are on the show. For lack of a better phrase, a lot of times, staff writers don’t know how to act in the writers’ room. That can often be to their detriment, which will lead to them not being asked back. We had people who would come in. Showrunners would come in and talk to us about expectations and answer our questions, like, is this okay, is that not okay.
It was just a great experience in how to navigate potential scenarios and also just building a network of people that we could reach out to, whether it was like… I’m actually still friends with Carole Kirschner, who runs the CBS writers’ program. I had a great mentor in Leigh Redman, who was at CBS at the time. If ever I felt lost, I would be like, “Hey, can you guys help me out here? I don’t know what I’m doing wrong,” or on that level.
We also did mock writers’ rooms. It was like, hey, we’re going to break an episode of Grey’s Anatomy. John Worth came in to talk us through that, show us the ropes of what a writers’ room does and how it operates before we actually got into one. It set us up for success.
Warner Bros operates in pretty much the same way. It was just another bite at the apple. It’s like, okay, this is what you do for this situation, and this is what you do for this situation. Warner Bros was also very helpful in getting most of us representation. I got my manager through the Warner Bros Writers’ Workshop, which I still have today. I think he and I are going on 14 years together.
**John:** A question for you, Akela. You are a huge success. You came out of these programs and are a huge success. Of your cohorts who are in those programs, how many of them are workings as writers today, top of your head? A bunch?
**Akela:** A bunch. In CBS, I can say Aaron Rahsaan Thomas was a showrunner for SWAT on CBS. From CBS, he ended up getting on Friday Night Lights. Janet Lynn did a bunch. She did Bones, I think after CBS, meaning that’s the job that she got coming out of the program. She’s been working her way up. Those are the two off the top of my head. I think there’s another one who ended up in animation, who was with us in our program. He was doing well in animation. Warner Bros, Lilla and Nora Zuckerman, who were the showrunners recently on Poker Face. Now I need to look up all of our class. Most of us are working.
**John:** That’s a pretty good hit rate. It feels like it was a good investment for these programs to have spent the time and money on you guys to make sure that you had this training, because now you’re able to make shows for these networks, which is amazing. Now, talk to us about what you learned in those programs versus learned at USC and film school? You went through a graduate screenwriting program?
**Akela:** Yes. Love USC, as someone who had no connections to the industry here. It was helpful for me. I know a lot of people don’t need grad school. You don’t have to spend that money. Again, I went to USC for feature writing, not knowing there was… At the time, there was a nascent TV program. I got into that, because we would have to take one class. I ended up discovering this whole new world that I did not know existed beforehand.
USC is what got me into television. It opened my eyes in that way. I had a lot of good professors who were very supportive, because a lot of people think that USC, especially at the time, was like, “This is where you go to make several blockbusters. They don’t care about art or anything like that. That’s what you go to NYU for.” Our professors were like, “No, write what you want to write. Write what you are passionate about.” They were very nurturing and encouraging in that aspect and just teaching us.
As far as features goes, I did need to learn structure, because I had written scripts in high school and college. They’re trash. It was very helpful. There’s a structure, first act, second act, third act. You can break it up into five acts if you fucking feel like it. There’s a structure to movies.
Also, even with USC, it’s like, nothing else matters if no one cares about the characters. That was the big thing at USC. It’s like, you gotta get your audience invested in your characters no matter what you are writing. It was a really good experience in setting me up to learn the basics before you start going off and breaking the rules.
**John:** Akela, can I guess that USC was really good in theory and how to get words on the page, but these programs were how to actually be a working writer in the business? Is that a fair difference?
**Akela:** USC was like, you had deadlines and you had to turn in pages, but CBS and Warner Bros is like, you got two weeks usually. It doesn’t matter, when you’re on a show, what you are going through. You gotta turn in your scripts. It’s a machine. Of course, this was network television that they were focusing on at the time. It’s like, once that production train is moving, they’re not going to stop for you as a staff writer, so you have to learn how to hit your deadlines and make your showrunner’s life easier.
**John:** Craig, you have never been a big fan of organized education over screenwriting or television writing. Hearing this description of the writers’ programs at these studios, what’s your instinct? What do you feel?
**Craig:** They’re proper vocational programs. It makes absolute sense. In most, we’ll call them crafts, trades, there is a job training that is run either by an employer, which in this case is what this is, or they’re also apprenticeship programs that are run through unions. What you don’t do is spend $80,000 a year to have somebody lecture to you about arc welding. You instead are employed and trained as an arc welder. You learn how to arc weld from folks in the arc welders local whatever. Then you start arc welding.
I am fully in favor of all vocational programs like this, but particularly these programs that are run by the companies, because they’re certainly not going to be leading you down a primrose path. They’re going to be teaching you how to work for them. That’s what they’re there for. Big thumb’s up to any vocational program. Not so much of a thumb’s up to expensive graduate programs.
**John:** Akela, what is the status of these programs right now? Some were canceled. Some were reinstated. Do we know where these programs are at right now?
**Akela:** I believe CBS is still going, but Warner Bros has been dismantled due to-
**Craig:** I thought they brought it back. I thought there was an outcry.
**Akela:** There was. From what I understand, I don’t think it’s going to be the same thing. I could be wrong. The program, as far as I knew it, is no longer there.
**John:** Of course, one of the issues also is how our industry works, is that these programs can train a bunch of writers inside their programs, but those people are going to be working for all the other networks. I can see someone looking at this as a cost on a balance sheet and saying, oh, why should we be paying to train writers for Netflix or for other people. It’s short-term thinking, but also that’s the frustration.
**Akela:** I think CBS joined, because when I did CBS, they didn’t pay for you as a staff writer, which is a point of contention, but Warner Bros. The idea was that Warner Bros didn’t want their own farm system. We were like Triple-A baseball. They were going to invest money in us.
On V, because I got V through Warner Bros, they paid for me. My salary did not come out of the show’s budget. That’s what that means. I think they would do that for two years, because they do want to start you off as a staff writer, and hopefully you get on a hit show and you work your way up and then they’ve got a showrunner down the line. The original idea of the Warner Bros Writers’ Workshop was that, yes, they’re going to do what you say, John, they’re going to invest money in us, and then years later they’re going to have a trained showrunner within their camp.
**Craig:** I think Universal’s feature development program works similarly, where they’re like, look, we’re going to put you through this program. You’re going to learn these things. We’re basically giving you a blind script deal for something. We can also put something on you. We can assign you something. The point is, you’re going to write something here. You’re going to write it for… There are definitely ways to make it function.
The expense of these programs is couch change. It’s not an actual number that is relevant to the operation of these companies. No offense to Mr. Zaslav, but every time he sneezes more money comes out than the amount that any of those programs cost. If they want to say that, they can say it, but that ain’t why. It’s usually because it’s a hassle to make a program, find people to run the program, deal with people having issues with the program, and then figuring out who should be in the program. It’s annoying. Doing things is hard. It’s so much easier to not do things than to do things, so they don’t want to do things. This is worth doing. It would be hard for anybody to defend not doing it with any excuse other than, “I don’t want to.” That’s the only actual legitimate excuse I can imagine.
**John:** Akela Cooper, thank you so much.
**Akela:** Thank you.
**Craig:** Thank you, Akela.
**John:** Bye.
**Craig:** Bye.
Links:
* Akela Cooper on [IMDb](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm4868455/) and [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/akelacooper/)
* [Paramount Writers Mentoring Program](https://www.paramount.com/writers-mentoring-program)(formerly CBS Writers Mentoring Program)
* [Warner Bros. Television Workshop](https://televisionworkshop.warnerbros.com/)
* [M3GAN Dance Scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c7XccFwJrQ)
* [Episode 122: “Young Billionaires Guide to Hollywood”](https://johnaugust.com/2013/young-billionaires-guide-to-hollywood)
* [Ben Affleck And Matt Damon Launch Production Company With RedBird Capital’s Gerry Cardinale](https://deadline.com/2022/11/ben-affleck-matt-damon-launch-production-company-with-redbird-capital-1235178013/) by Bruce Haring for Variety
* [Warner Bros. Discovery In Talks To License HBO Original Series To Netflix](https://deadline.com/2023/06/warner-bros-discovery-in-talks-to-license-hbo-original-series-to-netflix-1235421444/) by Peter White for Deadline
* [The Carsey-Werner Company](https://www.carseywerner.com/) on [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Carsey-Werner_Company)
* [Чёрный Ворон (Black Raven) – Chernobyl OST](https://youtu.be/-q23tuds2ZU)
* [Evolution Keeps Making Crabs, And Nobody Knows Why](https://www.sciencealert.com/evolution-keeps-making-crabs-and-nobody-knows-why) by Clare Watson for Science Alert
* [Welcome to Wrexham](https://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/welcome-to-wrexham) on FX and Hulu
* [Arnold](https://www.netflix.com/title/81317673) on Netflix
* [The Last Action Heroes](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/668268/the-last-action-heroes-by-nick-de-semlyen/) by Nick de Semlyen
* [Commando: The Musical](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FFQ_g8OoQM)
* [Get a Scriptnotes T-shirt!](https://cottonbureau.com/people/scriptnotes-podcast)
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* [Outro](http://johnaugust.com/2013/scriptnotes-the-outros) by Nora Beyer ([send us yours!](http://johnaugust.com/2014/outros-needed))
* Scriptnotes is produced by Drew Marquardt and edited by [Matthew Chilelli](https://twitter.com/machelli). Our intern is Halley Lamberson.
Email us at ask@johnaugust.com
You can download the episode [here](http://traffic.libsyn.com/scriptnotes/603standard.mp3).