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Scriptnotes Transcript

Scriptnotes, Ep 117: Not Just Dialogue — Transcript

November 16, 2013 Scriptnotes Transcript

The original post for this episode can be found here.

John August: Hello and welcome. My name is John August.

Craig Mazin: My name is Craig Mazin.

John: And this is Episode 117, the Not Just Dialogue edition of Scriptnotes, a podcast about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters.

Craig, how are you?

Craig: I’m good. I’m real good.

John: You’re less depressed than last week?

Craig: Yeah. The depression has faded. Anxiety and depression have given way to a new day of hope. A New Hope. That’s a good idea. That’s a great name for a movie.

John: That’s a great title for an episode of a long-running series.

Craig: Right. But I wouldn’t want to start it with number one, that’s boring. I would want to start this at number four.

John: Yes.

Craig: Eddie Izzard has this bit like kids have learned to count 4, 5, 6, 1, 2, 3, 9, 10.

John: [laughs] Yes, it is madness.

I’m overall good. Today I crossed a breaking point with pumpkin spice. And it just needs to stop. We need to stop trying to make pumpkin spice a thing.

Craig: Oh, I thought that they were one of the erstwhile members of the Spice Girls that you were pissed off at.

John: Oh yeah, Pumpkin Spice? No, she got booted out of the band really early on.

Craig: [affect British accent] What, I can’t play with you? What?

John: Partly it’s because I’m in Los Angeles and it’s actually pretty warm here today. But when you go into a place and they’re trying to push pumpkin spice on you it’s like, no, it’s 80 degrees. Stop with the pumpkin spice. I don’t want pumpkin spice. I don’t want Christmas Tree lots. I’m just not in a fall mood at all.

Craig: Wow, this is about the most white people problem, white person problem in history. What’s with all the pumpkins? Hey, guys…guys…I like pumpkin spice. Because I’m Jewish, I’ve always had Christmas envy. So, I’m obsessed with Christmas. I love Christmas. And even the vacations now that I take with my family are very Christmas-y vacations. So, last year we were in Quebec City, which is this incredibly Christmas-y place. [laughs]

And then now we’re going to go to Vienna because it’s like Christmas Town.

John: It is like Christmas Town.

Craig: So, I want everything to be mulled and pumpkin spiced and nutmegged. And I want everything to be red and green. And I don’t care. I don’t care. In fact, I want more pumpkin. You know, my beef is not enough pumpkin spice.

John: All right. We’re going to duel over this.

Craig: Mm-hmm.

John: Because dueling is going to come back I sense in a big way.

Craig: When people offer you pumpkin spice do you get all in their face? Do you get angry? Angry John?

John: I usually smack it out of their hands. That’s basically what I do.

Craig: Like what’s wrong with that guy? Who’s this guy that doesn’t like pumpkin spice? It’s November!

John: Yeah. It doesn’t feel like November. It doesn’t feel like Christmas at all.

Craig: I know. Well, Los Angeles is the worst in that regard.

John: Today on the show I need to give you props because you actually set the entire agenda for today’s podcast. I said, Craig, I have no idea what we’re going to talk about because we were trying to have this guest and the guest will be rescheduled for another time.

Craig: Right.

John: So, I said, I don’t really know what we’re going to talk about. And you suggested three things which I think are great things. And so I’m throwing them under a general umbrella of movies are not just dialogue and a screenwriter’s job is not just writing the dialogues. And it’s everything that happens in a movie. And so I thought we could talk about that in a general sense.

Craig: Great.

John: Particularly sound, which you brought up, which I think is crucial.

Craig: Yeah.

John: You suggested we talk about naming characters, which is important, and we should dig into that a bit.

And then finally a really good topic of when it just doesn’t come out right and what a screenwriter should do when his or her movie is not what was envisioned and what happens next.

Craig: That sounds good the way you just said it, although I do feel like I’ve just been set up for terrible failure.

John: I think it’s going to be just lovely and good. I think it’s going to be a great show.

Craig: All right. Well, let me just try and do something with this pit of anxiety in my stomach and I’ll do my best.

John: So, first off, you can concentrate on getting ready for it because we have some housekeeping.

Craig: Great.

John: First off, t-shirts. So, t-shirts are being preordered right now, so if you would like a t-shirt that says Scriptnotes that’s black that’s really cool. You can go to store.johnaugust.com and order your t-shirt. Like the last time we did t-shirts, basically people will order the t-shirts, then we’ll print exactly the order that we have, and then we’ll mail them out.

So, the deadline for ordering your t-shirt is this Friday. So, come to store.johnaugust.com and order your t-shirt if you would like one.

Craig: Good. Good. I have a little housekeeping, too. Do you have more?

John: I do. I have two more things.

Craig: Oh, well then I’ll know when to start. [laughs]

John: Second thing is I’m doing a talkback for Big Fish on November 23.

Craig: Oh yeah!

John: That’s a Saturday. So, if you are coming to that show on Saturday, November 23, you need to email ask@johnaugust.com so we can actually have a headcount because it matters whether we’re going to do it in one space or another space based on how many people I have coming to this thing. So, if you would like to come see me and some other people behind Big Fish talk about the show that you’ve just seen, email ask@johnaugust.com and let us know that that’s happening.

Craig: Great.

John: And, finally, this is kind of the big one, so, we are maybe a live show.

Craig: Hmm…

John: Are you aware of this, Craig?

Craig: I am aware of it. And it’s funny because now that I think about it, when we do the live show, which you will shortly describe, I think there should be some sort of pumpkin spice beverage. It’s a very holiday season.

John: It’s a holiday-themed show. That does not mean that we have to have pumpkin spice, though. There’s other things we can do to celebrate the holidays.

Craig: Scrooge.

John: But, not final, not locked down, but you might want to mark your calendar for Thursday December 19 in Los Angeles. We’re planning on doing a live show. A venue will be announced soon.

Craig: Great.

John: As will ticket information. But just mark your calendars for that. I’m excited to be back in Los Angeles doing this thing that we do.

Craig: It will be fun. Los Angeles shows are great. That’s obviously where a large amount of our listeners are. Although, lately we’ve been getting tweets from Serbia, from England, it’s been great.

I have a little bit of housekeeping, too. Not that we’re politicians, but I feel oddly required to disclose this. At one point, my One Cool Thing was WinesTilSoldOut.com, which I really like.

John: Yes.

Craig: And I got the loveliest email from a woman who works there. She said she heard the podcast and she was so happy. And said, “A lot of people don’t realize this, but we’re actually a very small family-owned business. It’s just our family that does this.” And they were very — and they don’t really advertise or anything, and they were very, very, well, they were just delighted. And as a result, they’re sending me a free bottle of wine.

John: Ooh.

Craig: And I would feel guilty if I didn’t mention that.

John: Yeah, you need to disclose that.

Craig: Yeah, that basically now my One Cool Thing, now I’m starting to think, oh, my One Cool Thing should just generate swag.

John: [laughs] Oh, swag.

Craig: Swag!

John: Swag.

Let’s get to our show today. And so I really like this topic of sound, but I think it’s important to discuss in the bigger umbrella of so many people think about what a screenwriter’s job is as just being the guy who writes the dialogue.

Craig: Right.

John: And so it’s just those things that he characters are saying. I had this bit of a run in with Jessica Alba, like who I never actually physically met, where she had said something very dismissive about like good actors never read the script, or never follow the script. I’m like, well that’s a stupid thing to say, Jessica Alba.

Craig: Yeah.

John: And what I thought was so stupid about that comment was it also implied that the script is just the dialogue and dismisses the fact that like, oh, the whole reason that you’re in this scene is because of the script. The whole reason your character exists is because of the script. So, I thought we would have a little discussion about everything else that goes on the page in order to make a movie and sound is a great way to start with that.

Craig: Yeah. Screenwriting is world building. We are doing everything. And sometimes when I talk to people who really don’t understand what a screenwriter does. I mean, of course there are people out there who don’t even know that screenwriters do the dialogue. They think the actors improv everything.

But a lot of times they are unaware that we essentially write everything. We are accountable to create a setting and describe what you are seeing and hearing in all aspects. We’re required to do it.

For me, sound is a really interesting one. And I’ve been concentrating on it more and more as I write now because as we progress through time and technology begins to disrupt the world around us and the way people interact with entertainment, one thing that has persisted somewhat counter-intuitively is one of the oldest ways to experience entertainment and that is to drive, park, walk into a big building, and watch a movie with a bunch of other people. And even though theaters are changing and now you see a lot of theaters where you get to book your seat, and it’s a big comfy chair, and they bring you food and stuff, and they’re really working on the 3D and all the rest of it, the experience still holds attraction for people.

One thing that sets movies, motion pictures, apart from television, watching movies on your iPad or on TV but going to see a movie in a theater is that you’re hearing the movie as well. And I don’t care what kind of deal you have in your house you don’t have that kind of deal. Movies sound better in theaters than anywhere else.

And so I think it’s important for us to think about that as we’re writing, because that’s part of what the attraction is now for people. It’s a huge part of the experience.

John: Well, experience is really the key word here. You have to be thinking about as a writer what is it going to feel like to be in that space watching the movie with an audience, with a great picture, with great sound, and what are the possibilities you have if you were that audience member and feeling it right there in that space.

And so there’s subtleties to sound that can be really crucial and great. The subtle scrapes, the rasps, the thunder cracking in the distance. These are great things and they belong on the page where they are appropriate. Now, you can’t choke your pages with every possible sound effect. And most scenes aren’t really going to talk about the sounds. You have to be very judicious about the moments you are going to sort of — every word on a script page is precious material, so you don’t want to waste those words on things that aren’t important. But sound can be very important. And every time you are thinking about that scene, you have to ask yourself what — is there anything about the sound of the scene that’s going to be unique and special and important?

If you’re setting something in an environment where just giving us the setting will probably tell us what it sounds like, that’s fine. But if there’s something special about it, let us know.

So, if you’re at an airport, if you’re just generally going through a busy terminal, telling us “busy terminal” will probably give us that sense of like the Walla-Walla-Walla and all that stuff that’s happening. And there’s going to be background PA announcements. Great. Don’t waste our time telling us about that.

But if you are on the tarmac and people are loading in bags and that’s where your action takes place, it’s incredibly important to remind us how loud that is and how it feels, and what that experience is like. And that has to happen on the page or else it’s not going to happen in the reader’s mind.

Craig: Absolutely. Sound, well one fun way to use it is for transitions and we’ve talked about transitions before and the use of sound as opposed to — I think we’ve become very good at detecting visual transitions. They are the oldest kind of transitions in motion picture filmmaking — dissolves, wipes, fades, and so on. And also the trick transitions, a light bulb that’s the sun

We become cynical about it. it’s a funny thing. We always think of watching movies and not listening to them, but we naturally over time become cynical about things we see because we’ve seen them before. Hearing is closer to smell, I think, neurologically in the sense that we don’t become jaded to the sounds. The sounds are actually very disruptive and they actually, I think, connect emotionally with us more quickly than visual information does.

Visual information is processed in the back of your head. Sound is processed in a whole bunch of different places. But, we know for instance that there are people who stutter who can sing, but they can’t speak without disruption. There are stroke patients who can’t speak at all, but they can sing what they want to say. There’s something going on in the brain that is fundamental here. And I like to think of sound as more of a mainline heroine than the visual.

So, also, I think there’s an opportunity now for us to play around with it, for instance, we’re talking about an airport. Well, we all know that we have a choice there as we’re building the world of the airport to just describe it as general Walla-Walla, or just the hustle and bustle of the airport. And in the reader’s mind they’re like, okay, I’ve got that.

But if you can use sound to help define your character and their focus of attention and thus the perspective of the scene. What is the character looking at? Does the rest of that sound fade away and all he can hear is the tap-tap-tap of somebody sitting across from him or the sound of a distant alarm because he’s panicked. You can use all of this to get right into the deeper parts of the brain.

So, as we go through our scene building and we get out of the kind of first blush world of what are people saying and who are they saying it to, and get into the world of the visual and the aural — a-u-r-a-l, don’t put the audio second. I actually think we should put it first. Sound to me is the thing that’s the most exciting in filmmaking in the finishing process because that’s when you suddenly — it’s the sound that makes it seem like a movie.

John: Yes. Anyone who’s experienced a bad indie movie, you can tell a lot of times how much money was spent on the movie by how good the sound is.

Craig: Right.

John: And whatever the picture quality, it’s the sound quality that is actually what tells you how professionally finished this movie was.

Craig: Yeah.

John: So, I want to step back to a thing you said earlier about sort of subjectivity versus objectively of sound. Because you’re describing in terms of like are we just hearing all the Walla-Walla of the busy airport, or are we focused in on what a character is doing? That’s essentially the same kind of choice as you would make visually with lens selection. Are you looking at the whole world? Are you wide? Are you objective?

Craig: Right.

John: Or, are you zoomed in really tight on what is happening right in this one very moment? So, either what this character is seeing, are we hearing the sound of what that character is seeing? Or just you’re experiencing the world as a character experiences the world. And those are very different choices. And you’re not always going to make those — declare what your intention is on the page. Most times you’re going to sort of set a tone for what the movie kind of feels like and stick with that tone.

Either the movie is going to be very subjective and it’s going to very much feel like it’s from the character’s POV, even if we’re seeing the character, or it’s going to feel like it’s wide and open and it’s the whole world that you’re experiencing at once. You’re experiencing it like the camera is another character in that space and you’re watching it with them.

Craig: Right.

John: But those are fundamental choices and to not think about that is to give up a choice and you don’t want to do that.

Craig: It’s giving up not only a choice. It’s giving up what often is your best choice, your most effective choice. And it’s hard for us. I think everybody understands that the nature of a screenplay is to try and visualize something. We’re told constantly from the beginning of our time as screenwriters to write visually. No one every says write soundily. [laughs] You know, we don’t even know what the word is, really. Aurally, I guess.

John: Yeah, it would be aurally, but that’s confusing.

Craig: Auditorily. But we often — we naturally — naturally we will say “close on,” “reveal,” “angle on.” We do this all the time in screenplays. We need to give as much service to what things sound like. As you point out, when it is salient and informative, as always, when we talk about these things we talk about intention. And what can provide, what can help you provide your intention to the audience in a way that is interesting, unexpected, exciting.

And so lately I’ve just really been playing around with sound. I mean, the script I’m writing right now, sound is actually a plot point. It matters. And that was an intentional choice, too. An that’s what started me thinking about this, because I realized it’s the kind of thing that makes you want to see the movie in a theater. And I want the theater experience to be special for people.

You don’t want to go down a road where you just… — Look, I mean, I’ve written movies where frankly you could just watch them on an iPad and it’s fine. But lately I’ve been thinking to myself it’s probably a bad idea. [laughs] I mean, not that I want to change creatively the heart of whatever it is that I’m doing just to sucker people into a big room, but if I can give them more in that big room, that’s a nice thing to do. And an effective thing to do.

John: Let’s step outside for a second and talk about how sound actually exists, how sound is created in films. Because I think someone who hasn’t been through the process of actually making a movie probably doesn’t have a sense of like how artificial sound really is in films.

Craig: Yeah.

John: So, on the set while you’re filming a movie there is a sound recordist. And that sound recordist, you can often see the person who is at the board, and there’s another person with a boom who is at the pole that’s holding the microphone down above the actors heads. That’s a very classic way you record sound in films. Sometimes it could be more than one boom. Sometimes the actors will have lavalier mics that will also be recording things.

Craig: Right.

John: But that’s only recoding really the dialogue. Everything else that you are seeing and hearing — not seeing, but hearing in a film was created after the fact basically.

Craig: That’s right.

John: That’s all post-production audio. And until you’ve actually been through that process and seen how incredibly elaborate it is and how seriously those folks take their job, you don’t have appreciation for how completely constructed it is. It’s as if, yo know, really basically it’s like you are shooting green screens the whole time where from an audio perspective those actors talking, that’s the only thing you’ve filmed and everything else around them had to be created after the fact.

Craig: In fact, it has to be that way because we want to be able to hear the dialogue cleanly and combine it with other sound as we so desire. As the director views the cut and listens to the mix, he or she needs to be able to change the sound as they wish. The one thing you can’t do is change the sound if it’s married on a track to dialogue. So, in fact, by requirement sets and movie scenes are designed to be as quiet and unsoundy as possible.

So, all you get is the dialogue. But, what I find interesting is that if you create space for a specific sound in the script, it will change the way the scene is shot. And it will — I worked with a DP once who would always refer to clues. He would say, “You know, there are all these clues in the script.” [laughs] And it’s true. You’re leaving clues for everybody so that they know how to put it all together in a way so that six months later, or eight months later, or a year later when you’re in your final mix, there are clues.

And they have the script there. The script does not go away. I am so pleased when I walk into a mix session and I see guys at this big, big board and they have the screenplay open in front of them.

John: Yeah.

Craig: They’re looking for clues. So, why don’t you put some in there for them. That’s basically the idea.

John: So, what these sound folks are doing is there’s sort of two parts to the process for sound. First is they’re editing sound, and so they are finding the sounds that would make sense in the scenes. And they will often have multiple choices for what those sounds could be. And there are things that you would not believe they could have multiple options for, but they will. Which is like a hand touching a door knob. And so when you’re in a sound — they will edit all those in so that they’ll all line up perfectly. And then you as the director will listen to all the choices for this is what it sounds like when his hand touches the door knob.

Craig: Right.

John: So, it’s a sound, they could had a library of sounds for doing this. They may have recorded that in Foley. But you will listen to that and you will go insane listening to all the choices for what it sounds like when that hand touches the door knob. And they will have the option for, well, does his wedding ring touch the door knob metal as it turns. They will have all those options.

And they are taking that so seriously because it helps create the reality of the film. Now, the challenge for the writer is how do you portray those kind of choices/decisions when they’re important on script, the page. And there are lots of choices.

Sometimes you are going to onomatopoeia. You are finding that made up word or that just perfect word that captures the sense of what that sounds like. The sizzle, the buzz, the crackle, the way you want that thing to sounds. What does it sound like as a box is being dragged across a gritty floor? Well, that’s probably a very specific thing and you may need to find the right verb to help sell what that sounds like.

But when you pick the right word for it, suddenly we hear it in our heads the right way.

Craig: Yeah.

John: And you’re trying to do that for the reader. Ultimately, a year later, some sound editor will be trying to find the right sound to portray that feeling to the audience member.

Craig: Yeah. I tend to be guided in this way. When I — let’s say for instance your example of a box being dragged across a gritty floor. I know that if I write, “Jim drags the box across the gritty floor,” that the professionals will know what that means. And they will offer, they will automatically put it in. And, really, for things like that, it’s almost a passive process with the director.

The way this works, for those of you who haven’t sat through a sound session for a movie, the folks that are combining all the audio elements, which are dialogue, music — dialogue, score, music that’s within the scene, sound effects. They play it back. And they play it back. You know, we talk about reels, so they play back a 16-minute chunk, say. And as they’re playing it there’s a footage counter on a big display underneath the screen. And the director, or the producer, or whoever is in the session makes notes.

When they hear something that’s off, that they don’t like, or that they want to change, or they want to make louder, or softer, they make a note of what the footage number was and what it was. When they’re done with that reel everybody goes through and talks about it and the sound mixers take notes.

So, you might say, “You know what, when it was being dragged across the floor, is there something a little grittier, a littler dirtier, and maybe not quite so loud? That almost sounded like glass instead of grit.” And they’ll go, okay, yeah, we’ll work on that.

Now, for me, when I’m writing, the areas where I want to really call stuff out is when it’s not the norm.

John: Yes. Exactly.

Craig: And to me it’s the not norm that is also very exciting for people. I mean, there’s this wonderful moment in The Sopranos where an assassination occurs at a table. And you don’t hear the bullet. You hear the sound of the high pitched noise that you get in your ear when you’ve been deafened because a gun just went off next to your head. It’s very impressionistic. And then, so in that case it needed to be called out. That suddenly all sound goes away except for this distant high pitched tininess kind of whine.

That’s the kind of stuff that I think is great to think about as you’re writing so that you can surprise people so it’s not just another gun going off.

John: I want to go back to this example of a box being dragged across a gritty floor, because what I want to stress is that as a screenwriter you probably wouldn’t highlight that as a sound effect if it was happening in front of the camera. So, if everyone in the scene is seeing this box being dragged across, it’s probably not worth the words to throw at it to describe that that sound sounds like.

Where it does become very important is if someone is trying to move it silently so no one else hears it, and that scraping sound, that gritty sound is really important. And that becomes an important story point is the noise that was made.

Or, if that’s happening just off stage, so we’re not seeing it, but we or the characters are hearing it, it’s incredibly important that you’re describing that sound and describing from the subjective point of view of the character on screen what they’re hearing.

Craig: Right.

John: That can create suspense, tension — what is that sound? And that’s where you end up spending 15 minutes trying to find the right word to describe what that sound sounds like.

Craig: Right. And the important thing, as you point out, is that we’re thinking about it, so it’s this other dimension of storytelling that sometimes we neglect and I do think it’s so important that we not neglect it because in the end there are people that can do amazing things. The ability to control sound in a movie far surpasses the ability to control anything else — performance, lighting, set design, everything is all subject to circumstance. The roll of the dice of the day. Sound can be absolutely perfected and they have so much ready to go. And then if they don’t they can design something just for your movie that people haven’t heard before.

I mean, the famous story of the guys who went out and tried to figure out what the blaster noise would be for Star Trek and they ended up whacking a bar against a high tension steel cable and marry that with a couple other things. And it became that noise. They invented a sound.

John: That was Star Wars, though. Not Star Trek.

Craig: Oh, I’m sorry. Did I say Star Trek? I meant Star Wars. Yes, Star Wars.

Star Trek, the sounds in Star Trek, too, though. I mean, if I say to you, “Transporter, start,” no transporter, Star Trek, you hear it. [laughs] You hear that — it’s like music but it’s sound, it’s a shimmer. These things are invented and they will last in your minds the way that music lyrics will last in your minds.

The sound of the space — the Martian vehicles, the tripods in Spielberg’s War of the Worlds are so distinct. That weird alien ship porn noise — I can hear it right now in my head.

I can’t see anything else really and I can’t see the thing. I could not draw it for you as well as I could make the sound for you.

So, let’s just collectively really think about that, when it’s appropriate, and when it can help us. It’s a good thing to do.

John: Here’s an exercise that we talked about when I was on the panel in Austin for Alien. So, I was a panel where we deconstructed Alien. And we were showing the opening startup sequence to Alien, basically where the ship wakes up. And what I stressed to keep in mind is that if you had no sound, if you were watching this in an airplane with no sound, you would still know what was happening because visually it tells you the ship is waking up and that the people are waking up. And you can watch that first sequence and it makes complete sense with no sound whatsoever.

So, you don’t hear people talking, it makes complete sense. The same thing can hold true for the audio in that situation where if you turn off the picture and just listen to the sound, you are hearing the ship waking up and it’s very, very clear.

Craig: Yes.

John: The music and sound are telling you that this thing is coming to life and it’s very smart.

So, what I would stress for writers to do is whatever scene you’re working on right now, you’re sort of looping it in your head, probably. You see the whole thing. Turn off the sound and see it all visually and make sure it all makes sense visually to you. And then do another pass where like you turn off the picture and just think about what everything sounds like.

And most scenes, there’s probably not going to be anything special that you’re going to want to highlight sound wise, but there might be. And it may not occur to you that there could be something interesting sound wise to highlight unless you try that that experiment.

Craig: Yes. And it’s a chance for you to impart information in a way that’s much more satisfying, and immediate, and true to the audience than somebody talking about it. So, if we’re in a ship and it looks a bit junky and we hear kind of a clunky rattle from somewhere in its depths, and the sound of a leaky pipe, we learn something about this ship and those sounds are wonderful. And they really do put you somewhere. More than seen.

John: Yeah, it’s a very primal thing. I think what you’re talking about, your memory of War of the Worlds, is I think because it actually keys into some sort of lizard brain thing about sort of our assumptions of what this is. And there’s a danger out there. We’re very keyed into that because we are creatures that spend half of our life in darkness and always had to sort of listen for predators out there. So, we do key into those things in a very special way.

Craig: Yeah, it’s why people listen to poetry set to music but don’t read poetry. I mean, some of it’s not poetry. [laughs] But they don’t even read bad poetry. They will listen to bad poetry.

John: They will listen to this podcast and not read the transcript.

Craig: [laughs] Exactly.

John: Great. Let’s move onto our next topic which is naming characters which is, I think, a great topic to have because that’s one of the things I spend so much time on in the initial part of figuring out a script is figuring out exactly the right names for not just my main characters, but sort of everyone in the world so that I know who these people are before I get started. And I have a very hard time writing a character if I haven’t picked his or her name.

Craig: It’s so funny, so do I. And it is a very torturous process. I don’t know if you’ve ever had the experience of having to change the name because somebody comes to you in the process and says, “We can’t clear this name.” I mean, there are all these rules about clearing names. It’s a weird thing.

If you write a movie and you put a character’s name in, like let’s say Tyler Durden. If there’s only one Tyler Durden in America, you’re screwed. You can’t do it. Because that person could come and say, “This obviously is about me. There’s only one Tyler Durden.” So, you kind of need lots of Tyler Durdens, or no Tyler Durdens in order to use the name.

But if they make you change it…I’m getting anxious even thinking about it, because it’s a disruption. It’s as if your husband had to change his name and you had to call him a different name. It’s traumatic. We connect with the names so closely.

John: Let’s talk about that connection, because the name is generally the first thing we are going to be able to draw assumptions about that character from. And so if a Tiffany is different than a Bertha, and you and I both see different characters for a Tiffany and then for a Bertha.

Craig: Right.

John: And we have our whole bundle of expectations and assumptions that come with those two kinds of names, to tip off sort of socioeconomic background, of kind of looks. We don’t associate hot with Berthas. It can talk to us about their ethnicity, their nationality. It can give us a sense of their age. A Mabel is either very old or is a little baby. But there’s no Mabels who are 30.

Craig: Right. Exactly right. And this is an area where I do see writers dating themselves a bit. It’s always a good thing. The wonderful resources online now to see what the most popular names are, not just now, but they were ten years ago or 20 years ago. And for every country. I’m constantly looking for foreign names to see what popular names are.

And, of course, you can go against the grain and make a point of going against the grain with a name, but there’s some obvious things to not do. Don’t name your characters super boring names because that’s just super boring. There’s no reason for anybody anymore to be Officer Smith.

Smith — even that in and of itself is so ridiculous, it could almost be interesting. It’s more like Harper. It’s a name that’s not like Smith or Jones but it’s just so bland that you don’t care.

John: Harper is one of those weirdly overused things in scripts. I’ve used it. Because it’s not that common of a name really in real life, but I think on paper for whatever reason it’s there all the time, as a first name and a last name.

Craig: And also it gives nothing to anybody who is trying to visualize. If I walk into a room, I need to get a loan, and I sit down across a loan officer and his name is Jim Harper, I guess I’m just looking at a white man between 30 and 60 in a suit who’s just a blah….

John: I’m sort of seeing John Krasinski from The Office, but that’s because his name is Jim Halpert, so it was close to that.

Craig: Right. There’s a blandness to it. And in television I actually think sometimes they need to do that because you’re with them week, after week, after week, and at some point a silly name — sorry, that’s the wrong term. A name that is noticeable, that sticks out, is going to become annoying over time. Sam Malone is a perfectly great television name. It’s a terrible movie name.

John: Yeah. Sam Malone would be like a generic sheriff in movie land.

Craig: Right. It would be a boring sheriff. Now, on the other hand, another thing to not do is to get precious and stupid with your names. Please forgive me, Pacific Rim, but Stacker Pentecost is ridiculous. That is a ridiculous name. It takes me out of the movie. It seems almost like a spoof.

John: Yeah.

Craig: It is such an overdone, hyper-masculinization of a name. It’s got bible thumping weirdness to it. Stacker is nonsense. Pentecost is way too on the nose. It’s just crazy. I mean, Cypher Raige is terrible because it’s just — it’s not a good idea to do that.

John: No one in real life would be named Cypher Raige. If your name were Cypher Raige —

Craig: You would change it!

John: The first thing anyone would say to you is like, “Really? Really that’s your name?”

Craig: So, you’re angry and mysterious?

John: I guess so.

Craig: Let me tell you, if your name is Cypher Raige, the one thing you can’t be is angry and mysterious. At that point you have to be happy and an open book, because then it’s funny. But, those kinds, you don’t want to go down that path. So, you don’t want to go down crazy name path. I tend to try and studiously avoid the on-the-nose names that imply character things. I find them precious.

John: Like the character Precious?

Craig: No, that was great. [laughs] No, but I mean, you know, when somebody is named Small, know, or Loneman.

John: Oh yeah, that’s a dangerous thing.

Craig: Yeah.

John: So, I’m working on this project which if people want to go back to the What’s Next episode, I’m actually going in to have a meeting on that preexisting property thing. And so I had to pick character’s names, because I actually had to sort of — I have to pitch this thing.

And so it was a sudden kind of realization, like I had to really figure out who these characters were because they were going to have to have names. I was going to have to be able to pitch their names. And so I figured out their names, but then I actually spent a good half hour trying to figure out how to spell this woman’s name, because it’s one of those names that could be spelled different ways. And because you’re going to be looking at that on the page, you know, every page she’s going to have dialogue. It has to be the right way to spell her name.

And so even though no one watching the movie would ever see her name spelled, it had to be spelled the right way on the page so that it would be — so you would get the right impression of her every time you saw her give a line of dialogue.

Craig: Right.

John: So, that’s a crucial thing. And honestly figuring out the other guy, once I made a decision about his nationality, that put me in a whole different place in terms of what kinds of names would remind me who he was. Because remember that you’re setting up these characters and somebody could like really skip past one little thing that told you where that person was from, but if the name helps remind you that it is that person, that person is from some place, you’re going to be in a much better place.

And so you might forget that, well, Parks and Recreation, there’s Tom Haverford, is a guy of South Asian heritage, but that’s part of the joke is that he has a really boring white guy name.

Craig: Right.

John: And he’s a sort of South Asian looking guy. In a film, you probably want to make sure that character has a name that would remind you that he is that guy, because if it’s been 30 pages since we’ve seen him last, you’re going to forget that he is anything special because of all those pages in the past.

Craig: Right. And that is a very —

John: So, it would be Sunil or something else that could remind you like, oh, that guy is this guy.

Craig: Yeah. Because we’re only getting one episode of the show. One long episode. And the care that you’re describing, even the spelling of a name, is critical because these things mean things and they impart things. I have a character in the script I’m writing now named Sarah. So, the question is is it Sara, or is it Sarah?

Well, to me Sara is a little younger, it’s a little brighter, it’s a little more bubbly. Sarah is a little more worldly, a little more weathered, a little more adult, a little more serious.

John: Or, a dancer in Big Fish is Sarrah.

Craig: Ah, now that’s —

John: The mermaid.

Craig: And that says exotic, eccentric, artistic, whimsical. These things mean things, you know. They do.

John: Absolutely. That extra R does change a lot of your expectations.

Craig: It tells you about their parents.

John: Yeah, it tells you about their parents, exactly.

Craig: And that tells us about them. And these things can’t just be tossed off as, well, I’m just going to name her Jill.

John: Yeah.

Craig: You know, and he’s going to be Frank. And, for god’s sakes, if you’re character’s name is Frank, please don’t make him frank. It’s like that stuff makes me nuts. But, anyway, I mean, the most important thing is never write Stacker Pentecost. That’s a name that should just — we should never hear that ever.

John: I would say the second most important thing is pick your primary character’s names first. And then do not let anyone else — try to not let anyone else have the first letter of their name be the same as those major characters.

Craig: Absolutely right.

John: So, if you possibly can, no two characters in your script should have the same first letter of their name. If for some reason you need to, the names need to be wildly different so that we will never confuse them as readers, because that just kills you when it’s like “I don’t remember which person this is,” or like these two people are talking and they both have Fs start in their names. Frank and Phil. Even Frank and Phil sometimes your head — one is a PH and one’s an F.

Craig: Yeah, but it’s a “ph” sound.

John: They feel the same. A “ph” sound.

Craig: It starts to make your world small and it starts to make the reader — they don’t even realize that they’re making a judgment that you just aren’t that imaginative and you only know one consonant. You just don’t want to do that.

Do you know why, I mean obviously the name Sandy in Identify Thief was part of what need to happen, he needed a name like that, but do you know why —

John: An ambiguously gendered name.

Craig: Exactly. But do you know why Melissa McCarthy’s name is Diana?

John: I don’t.

Craig: Well, she picked her name, because she didn’t know what her name was. And Melissa and I had this whole thing that when she was growing up she was obsessed with Wonder Woman and wanted to be like Wonder Woman.

John: Aw.

Craig: And so she chose the name Diana. And then it was really difficult to figure out what her actual name was and I spent a lot of time because I thought, okay, just from the look of her, she’s Scotch-Irish, but I didn’t want her name to be flowery. I actually wanted it to be a very truncated sort of glum Midwestern name.

John: Like Meg?

Craig: Yeah. And so I ended up with Dawn Budgie because it just —

John: Dawn is perfect.

Craig: Dawn is just Dawn, and Budgie because —

John: Budgie, you’re close to being that sort of like don’t be what the name is, but because it’s a punch line, it’s a late reveal.

Craig: Yeah. It’s a name about a pretty creature but it’s kind of an ugly word. I wanted it to be a downer. I just wanted her to be able to say, “That’s the worst name I’ve ever heard.” And it is, in fact, one of the worst names I’ve ever heard. But we spend time on these things and so I guess we are collectively encouraging all of you to spend time on them.

John: Absolutely. You should obsess a little too much about character’s names because you’re going to be staring at those character’s names the entire time through.

And, yes, you can make a change midway through the script and rename somebody, but it’s hard —

Craig: It’s traumatic.

John: It’s traumatic.

Craig: It’s traumatic. Now, I have a question for you. When you rewrite a script, what’s your attitude about changing the character names of the screenplay you’re rewriting?

John: I would only do it if there were like a fundamental issue where there was confusability between things, or if there was now a new actor in who just that name does not at all belong with that new actor.

Craig: Right.

John: So, I can’t even think of what an example would be, but a character’s name, there’s an O’Malley, and Will Smith is playing that role, that’s not going to make a lot of sense. And so that might be a possibility for changing names. But I think it’s honestly a little bit shady to sort of be the writer who comes in and just changes character’s names willy-nilly as if you’re really rewriting, as if you’re changing the characters.

Craig: Right. I completely agree. And this sort of goes to a general professional courtesy thing. You hear this from people all the time. When they get rewritten, one of their hugest complains — oh, that’s the worst grammar ever.

John: Yeah. That was terrible.

Craig: One of their significant complaints is that the subsequent writer changed the freaking names and they just did it for no reason, it’s still the same guy, in the same house, in the same job, doing the same stuff. A lot of the dialogue changed. There are a few new scenes. This wasn’t a page one rewrite. It wasn’t a reinvention of the movie. It was largely about dialogue, but they changed the names. What was the point of that?

And my feeling is you should default to not changing the names. You change them if you must, as you described. Obviously in the case of Identify Thief there was a gender switch. Names had to change. But, if you can preserve the names, why not?

John: Yeah. As long as the names aren’t actually hurting you. That’s the situation.

Craig: Right.

John: So, if changing the name opens a whole new opportunity, or for whatever reason this whole thing is now set in like the world of the Russian underground, then yes, you’re going to need to change some names. That’s just like a natural thing to have happen. But, otherwise it does feel kind of like a dick move.

Craig: It’s a dick move. That’s exactly right. So, to our fellow professionals, don’t be dicks.

John: Don’t be dicks. The last point I’d like to make in terms of names and name usage is that characters generally have first names and last names, but not all the time.

Craig: Yeah.

John: Sometimes you use the first name, and sometimes you use their last name, and you need to make a choice and be consistent about whether you’re using first, last, or both for those characters, because that can really help you get through — help your script make sense.

And so with your lead character, obviously that character is going to have a first name and a last name. You will make the choice whether it’s their first name that appears above their dialogue or their last name. But be consistent. And whatever name you pick, that should be the name above all their dialogue. It should be the name you use in all the action lines. Don’t go back and forth, because we will get confused.

Craig: Yeah.

John: And be consistent for that character. Now, it doesn’t mean that every character has to be used by their first name, or their last name. That’s a choice you can make for each character about how you’re going to do it. So, you can have one character who is Sam and another character who is McGarnagle, and if you want to use McGarnagle for all McGarnagle stuff, great. But he’s always McGarnagle and he’s never anything else.

Craig: Yeah. And try and match that up to the way people talk to each other. Not that announcing someone’s name before you say something to them is great practice, but let’s say you’re in a movie where you’ve got a psychologist who is joining a SWAT team to try and get a hostage out of a situation. Well, the psychologist may be Gary and he has a wife and kids, and the first 15 pages is setting up Gary and his life. When he encounters this group of SWAT guys, well they all call each other by their last name, so that’s what they are. They’re last name guys. And they’re last name characters. And it’s not like they can only call him Gary.

They can call him Chang. But Gary, it’s how we meet people and generally how the world interacts with them that can help drive that.

John: What you’re describing is often in films — a character’s personal life is in first names and professional life is in last names. That’s the way that the real world often does work.

Craig: Right. Exactly.

John: One last thing that can be helpful sometimes, this is a thing I learned from Big Fish, is using both first and last names at times can be very, very helpful. So, there’s Don Price and Zacky Price in Big Fish. And there’s also Jenny Hill. Those characters are always both names. And it becomes useful for the Price brothers because it helps you remember, oh, they’re brothers. And that’s incredibly useful for that.

Jenny Hill, we always refer to her as her full name, which just helps you remember who she was as you go through the script. And so it’s fine if you want to choose to use both names for certain characters. That’s okay.

Craig: That’s how I refer to Richard Kelly. I will not say Richard.

John: I won’t say Richard and I won’t say Kelly.

Craig: He’s Richard Kelly. He will always be Richard Kelly.

John: Let us go to our third topic today which is when it doesn’t come out right. Now, last night I got to see our friend Kelly Marcel’s film, Saving Mr. Banks.

Craig: Well, that came out right. [laughs]

John: That came out really, really right. But even whilst we were talking at this after party for the AFI premiere, Kelly, Aline, and I were talking about this very thing which is what — she loves the film. And so in no way am I trying to say that she doesn’t love the film.

But we talked about the inevitability that there are things you wrote a certain way that in the process of becoming a movie are not the same way that you tended to write them, even though they could be shot exactly word for word, it’s not going to be the film that you envisioned in your head. And how do you come to terms with the fact that it’s not exactly what you had envisioned in your head.

Craig: Mm-hmm.

John: And so that is the happy situation where like you have a really movie at the end of it, so luxury problems. But, sometimes it’s not what you saw in your head and it’s not good. So, what do you do?

Craig: Well, step one, don’t panic.

John: Yes.

Craig: Best advice from Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. Grab your towel, don’t panic. The thing is that you saw the final cut. Oftentimes as screenwriters we’re seeing an early cut. Well, the early cut is like one of our first drafts, and if people around us didn’t panic, don’t we owe them the same courtesy of not panicking?

True, a screenplay can be changed in vast ways far more easily than one can change the edit of a film. And yet a film can be changed through editing in ways that are vaster than we would suspect.

John: Agreed. And the first time screenwriters see their movies made never understand how much it can progress and change.

Craig: It can progress and change mightily. So, the first thing is, don’t panic.

John: Yeah.

Craig: The second thing is to remember — remember when you wrote your first draft and you gave it to people and then they gave you feedback, and then you see where you end up? It’s quite likely that a lot of the people who read that first draft loathed it and panicked momentarily and then said, “Well hold on, we can fix things. The writer is going to do better than this because this is the necessary first step.” The first step is never the final step, except for the case of Alexander and Karaszewski in Ed Wood apparently. [laughs] They were just touched by god. What can you do?

But you don’t panic now either. It’s the same situation. The director needs to find her way to it. They are now in their first draft and they are not seeing some things that you saw because their experience is different than yours.

Even if your turned out experience here is not about seeing the film, it’s even just hearing your script being read. Let’s say you’re in a writing group and everybody reads the script. And you hear it and you think, “Oh no.” Don’t panic. And then start to really think about where and how there’s a disconnect between the intention and what happened. And while you’re thinking about that, also open your mind to the possibility that perhaps something new has occurred that may also be worthy.

Just because it’s not what you intended doesn’t mean it’s bad. Different isn’t wrong. However, wrong is wrong. [laughs]

John: Yes.

Craig: So, then, my question for you, John, is okay you’ve seen this cut and you know that some things are just wrong. As a professional, with a goal in mind, how do you go about getting it unwrongified and rightified?

John: So, my first experience with this process was seeing the first cut of Go. And we were downstairs in the basement of the Thalberg building on the Columbia lot and we saw it. And I excused myself. I went out to the restrooms down there and had like a full on sweaty panic attack, because it was so awful. I was really thinking like maybe we can just never release it, because I knew it would kill my career if it got out, because it was just unspeakably bad.

And so then I went in and tried to have like the smile on my face conversation about like, well, there are some things that worked. And as I started having that conversation I realized like, you know what, there were some things that worked. And I was there for every frame we shot and I know we shot everything. So, the stuff that’s actually working, we just need to get everything else to work as well as basically the Vegas sequence was working in that first cut.

And it’s like, well, that’s going to be really hard. But, you know what? I can work really, really hard. And so then it was a process of, and this is different on every movie, is figuring out how can you as the writer come in and provide the help that can be provided to this process. So, with Go I was able to actually come into the editing room and sort of sit down and we could just do cut, after cut, after cut and then figure out reshoots and do all that stuff we needed to do.

Other movies, I’ve provided the first and most extensive set of notes that sort of talked through these are things that are working so, so well, these are the things that aren’t working so well, this is what I know we have, this is a thing we could try. And on Tim Burton’s movie that’s as much as I’ve been able to do, but it’s been really helpful for me to be able to do that.

Craig, what do you do after that first cut? And one thing I always stress when a screenwriter is going to see their first assembly of a movie is to tell them it’s supposed to be terrible. You will not believe how bad it can be. We love you. It’s going to be okay.

Craig: Well, sometimes it’s not going to be okay. I mean, let’s just also say that occasionally things go so wrong that it’s just going to be bad. It will be better than it is, but it will be bad. But sometimes it’s the total disasters that turn into these big victories. The ones I’m always worried about are the middling ones where you think, well, it’s a C+. I think we can get it to a B. Whoop-de-do. You know?

Well, first of all, before I do anything I have to justify why I’m there to begin with. This part of the process generally, traditionally is reserved for the director, and the producers, and the studio. Traditionally the screenwriter was seen as like a booster tank had been ejected on launch and was no longer required for the mission.

John: Yes.

Craig: That has changed, and I think changed for the better. And I would urge studios, producers, and directors to open the process up to screenwriters because we can help. And those screenwriters who understand, and I would hope that it’s now approaching 100%, who understand that the mission at this point is to improve the film, not to regain the movie that was in our heads when we wrote it, those screenwriters who can do that can be of great help.

Why? Because if you understand how editing works, and I would ask screenwriters who have not spent time in editing rooms to beg their way into them, even if it’s just to sit there quietly to experience it, we are able to offer solutions.

The director is beset by their own doubt and fears. By a lack of perspective they are exhausted. They are being asked to essentially look at this material as if they were just handed it by someone else. They did it. Their experience of the footage is colored by how hard they fought for certain things, how hard the day was to get, what they felt about a certain actor.

People around them will offer perspective. A lot of times the perspective is a passive perspective. “I don’t like that. I do like this.” And those are all opinions and they’re fine.

What a screenwriter with post-production experience can do is say, “Here’s what I think doesn’t work, and here’s how I think we can fix it. And it’s not hard. We’re going to do this and this, take this out, put this here. Let’s add a line of dialogue off screen over here, just to cover this, and it’s going to feel great. Extend this shot so that I’m looking at him while she’s talking. I want to stay — the idea was that I would be with him, so that what she’s saying isn’t as important as how he’s feeling about her saying it.”

Thing like this, that’s the real stuff of editing. And those are the things that make so much difference. Scott Frank was talking to me about editing his movie — he finished it — called A Walk Among the Tombstones. And I’ve seen it and it’s terrific. And Steven Soderbergh came in and was talking with him about the cut. And one of the things that came out of that discussion was cutting less. Just letting the shots go longer, even if the person who was talking wasn’t onscreen, because it fit the mood and the style of the movie better.

And we can do these things for each other. So, for directors who aren’t accustomed to having screenwriters involved in the process, open yourself up to it. And forgive them if they seem a little clingy to something, because we can get over that quickly, and then help deal with the world that is as opposed to the world that we imagined.

John: Well, the screenwriter can come in often as the fresh set of eyes because a lot of times I’ve not seen everything that was shot. So, I’m genuinely naïve to sort of what was happening on the day. I don’t know all the fights. I don’t know all the backstory behind things.

Craig: Right.

John: But I do remember the intention, and so I do remember what the intention was behind that scene. And there was a reason why it was that way. And there may be a good reason why it should be that way, again, and I can help find the way back to that process.

Craig: That’s right.

John: Also, screenwriters, we tend to be really good at sitting on our butts and staring at screens. And that’s a skill that we’ve developed from writing our scripts and it’s not a skill that’s actually natural to many directors. And so we sometimes have the patience to sit and like try the 15 different versions of how this thing could work and do all that experimentation that many directors can’t, because many directors are up on their feet, pacing, and doing 10,000 things at once.

Many directors sort of thrive on controlling chaos around them. And when it’s actually a quiet, still environment they kind of flip out.

Craig: Mm-hmm.

John: So, that’s often a way that screenwriters can be very helpful in the process is looking at what was there and what’s possible.

We’re also sometimes less afraid, well, we’re able to in our heads think about what happens to the story if things move around. And so if we move this scene from here up four scenes earlier to here, we can do the narrative math and ripple through what all that effects. That is very hard for other people to do, just because we’re used to the story as a whole. We know how it all fits together.

We know the consequences but also the opportunities and the possibilities that are there.

Craig: That’s exactly right. And so sometimes the non-writers will offer solutions that are great for the thing in front of you, they just don’t understand what it means for something 40 minutes later. Whereas writers always understand that. We immediately understand that, and so we provide a comprehensive solution, not something that’s going to cause its own problem.

The only other advice I could suggest is to be gentle and nice. Be nice. It’s so hard and it’s hard to get criticism and it’s hard to be told that you did something wrong, or you screwed it up. And I think that everybody is afraid on some level, afraid of the screenwriter. They don’t like it, but I think they are.

John: Yeah.

Craig: They’re afraid of blowing it because this person did this whole thing. And I think that’s part of what’s behind a lot of the bravado, like that crazy Morgan Freeman thing.

John: Yeah.

Craig: But be nice, be gentle, and also recognize that you have a legitimacy in your comments that no one else has. When some producer tells a director, “This scene is not working, cut it,” the director thinks, “Screw you, suit.”

When the writer who wrote that scene says it, you got to think twice. [laughs] And I have no problem saying, “Listen, it’s just not working. You know what? I obviously thought it would work. It’s not working. It’s not because you screwed up. It’s because we made a mistake. WE.”

John: We.

Craig: “So let’s WE cut it.”

John: Exactly.

Craig: Yeah.

John: And let’s WE finish up this episode of Scriptnotes. So, I have a One Cool Thing. Craig, do you have a One Cool Thing this week?

Craig: I do.

John: I wonder if ours is going to be the same thing. Mine is this utility that was introduced this week which I thought was crazy and impossible and useful for a very specific thing that happens with me. I’ve been traveling so much and I’ve been working primarily on my MacBook Air, which I love, it’s a great little 13-inch computer and I love it to death.

And I’ve been in public places a lot, so I always keep it locked. And so when the screen goes dark I have to type the password to unlock and I have a long password because I want to protect what’s there. So, it’s a new utility called Knock to Unlock which is crazy, but it actually works.

So, it’s a Mac application that runs in the background. And it’s an iPhone application that also runs in the background. It uses low power Bluetooth to talk between the phone and the computer. So, basically you walk up to your computer, you knock on your phone twice, and it unlocks it.

Craig: Whoa! I’m totally getting that.

John: Yeah. So, it seems impossible. So, you have to have a pretty recent model MacBook Air.

Craig: Well, what about like a MacBook Pro?

John: I’m sure that will be great. So, like my main computer that I’m working off of right now is an older MacBook that doesn’t let me do it, but my MacBook Air, it works great. So, it needs low power Bluetooth and it’s actually proved genuinely useful. So, it’s a utility that seems like magic and I’m only a couple days into it, but so far I really enjoy it.

Craig: Wow. Knock to Unlock. I’m totally getting that. That sounds great. That is, in fact, a cool thing. So, my One Cool Thing this week, obviously not that because that took me by surprise, blew my socks off.

Somebody posted, you know, we get a lot of these things on Twitter now where people say, “Please Retweet this and please Retweet that.” And we can’t Retweet everything. And, frankly, I’m just not a big Retweeter.

John: Yeah.

Craig: But one guy sent me this thing and it was basically about organ donation and a kid who needed an organ. And I don’t know, have I spoken about organ donation before on the podcast? I’m always worried that I’m re-cooling things.

John: I don’t think you have.

Craig: I have always been an enormous proponent of organ donation and also registering for the bone marrow transplant registry, the national marrow donor registry. In my mind, this is frankly a prerequisite for being a good human being. I hate to be super judgmental about this, but I really am. This is one of the few areas in my life where I’m sanctimonious in the truest sense of sanctimony.

John: Well, that and vaccines, but yes.

Craig: Yes. And vaccines. Correct. [laughs] It tends to revolve around medical science. But I think you are essentially you are —

John: We are lock-step in agreement on this one.

Craig: Yes. You are a bad person if you are so greedy and stupid as to think it’s more important to hold onto your organs in death than to save someone else’s life. Nobody likes to think about dying too soon, but then again nobody likes to think about dying pointlessly because they can’t find a heart for you, or for your child.

And so everybody should be an organ donor. Everybody should have the thing on their license that says they’re an organ donor. And I also think everybody should register for the national bone marrow registry service. It’s very, very simple to do.

The idea behind that is people, with a blood cancer, typically like a leukemia, will need to have their marrow replaced, but marrow will be rejected by the body unless it’s a very specific match to your own natural tissue. And it’s very hard to find a match. Sometimes your relatives will not match you. Sometimes somebody else across the world will.

So, what they do is they send you a kit. You can go online and register and we’ll provide the links. And you just do a cheek swab and send it back. And from that cheek swab they now have you in the database. And when somebody needs a bone marrow transplant and there’s not an obvious answer for that, they type them and they do into their database.

And one day my number may come up and I may have to go do this. And it will hurt a little bit. Whoop-de-doo, it will be the best thing I’ve ever done in my life. So, I love knowing that — are you registered?

John: I’m not bone marrow, so I should do that.

Craig: Oh, you’re going to be, after today, absolutely.

John: I’m doing it.

Craig: It is crucial. But it is just as crucial to be willing to donate every single part of your body that is usable should you die and should it be valuable to someone. Please, everything. Let us just reclaim each other. It is an absolute good thing to do.

So, we’ll provide some links for that, but that is my One Human Thing this week.

John: Very good. So, the links we were talking about are with the show notes. So, if you’re listening to this on your iPhone, those links are probably there in the podcast with you right there at the moment. But if not, you can go to johnaugust.com/podcast and find this podcast. There you will find links for most of the things we talked about: Knock to Unlock; the organ donation registries, the California one but also the national clearinghouse for that; the bone marrow registry — we’ll put that in there as well.

We will have information about our live show in December when we know when it is. So, a good idea in general is to follow us on Twitter. I am @johnaugust. Craig is @clmazin. Those would be the places where we would first announce when tickets are going to be coming out and sort of what’s going to be going on with the live show.

If you are listening to this on a device that connects to iTunes, you can subscribe to us there. That’s awesome. If for some reason you are getting two subscription showing up in your feed, it’s because we had to change the URL address for Scriptnotes about three weeks ago, so subscribe to the new one and then delete the old one and then you won’t get two episodes coming in.

But while you’re in iTunes, leave us a comment, because we love those, and we do read those sometimes. And sometimes we’ll read them aloud. So, leave us a comment, that’s great.

Craig: Yeah.

John: And that is our show.

Craig: I think I did all right.

John: I think you did really, really well, Craig. A round of applause for Craig Mazin.

Craig: Ah…thank you.

John: Some nicely picked topics there.

Craig: Thank you.

John: And, Craig, we will talk again next week.

Craig: Great see you next time. Bye.

John: Thanks.

Links:

  • Order your Scriptnotes shirts from The John August Store before Friday
  • Get your tickets now for the Big Fish talkback on November 23rd and let us know you’ll be there
  • Previous One Cool Thing WinesTilSoldOut did a cool thing for Craig
  • John’s 2010 Jessica Alba blog post
  • Dolby’s Atmos is one example of why your home theater sound doesn’t compare to the movie theater experience
  • Foley on Wikipedia
  • Behind the Name breaks down first name popularity by country and year
  • Saving Mr. Banks is in theaters this December
  • Knock to Unlock lets you unlock your Mac by knocking your iPhone
  • Register as an organ donor today
  • And register for the Be The Match bone marrow database, too
  • Outro by Scriptnotes listener Jonas Bech

Scriptnotes, Ep 116: Damsels in distress — Transcript

November 9, 2013 Scriptnotes Transcript

The original post for this episode can be found [here](http://johnaugust.com/2013/damsels-in-distress).

**John August:** Hello and welcome. My name is John August.

**Craig Mazin:** My name is Craig Mazin.

**John:** And this is Episode 116, the damsels in distress episode of Scriptnotes, a podcast about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters. How are you, Craig?

**Craig:** I’m okay.

**John:** Oh, just okay? What’s going on?

**Craig:** You know what, we were in Austin, and we had a great time. It was exhausting and, yeah, I’m fine. You know, the weekend, these weekends are intense. And this one for whatever reason — Ooh, did you hear that?

**John:** I did.

**Craig:** It was like a truck…

**John:** So now we know we’re back in our environment.

**Craig:** Yeah. We’re clearly back. Anyway, yeah, so anyway I’m just a little, I’m fine.

**John:** Austin was intense.

**Craig:** It was.

**John:** And it was intense for a lot of reasons. First of all, I got to hang out with people I really liked, and that was really fun. I got to drink on weekdays, which is not a usual thing for me. Also, we’ve talked about this phenomenon, within a two-block radius of the Driskill Hotel during the Austin Film Festival, I’m kind of famous. I’m like recognizably famous, which is not my daily life at all. And so I had a sudden sympathy for actual famous people who can never escape that. Whereas I can walk an extra two blocks and then no one in Austin knew who I was.

**Craig:** Yeah, and you know, you’ve probably had a little more practice with that sort of thing because you’ve been doing the IMDb thing for a long time. And your website. When I first started going to Austin, nobody knew who I was. And then if they knew who I was, they just didn’t care. It is true that the podcast has… — Well, first of all, people would come up to me and they would be emotional. And then I would get emotional. And also there’s this strange thing that happens when you are walking through a room and as you’re walking by people you can hear one of them whispering your name to another person.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** And this is not humble bragging. It’s actually very — it’s not something you want. It’s actually distressing. I’m not saying to people don’t, I mean, of course, it was wonderful talking to people, and I loved every minute of that. And it really is incredible to meet all the people that listen to us. But, you know, I’m not, [laughs], anyway, look, I’m a big mess anyway this week. So, I’m a big mess. But, that was — it was emotional. And it was weird at times and intense.

And, you know what, wouldn’t trade it for the world. Wouldn’t trade it for the world. No regret.

**John:** It was a great, great time.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** Today on the show we’re going to talk about a bunch of things including this article you just sent me from T-Bone Burnet who was at the Austin Film Festival, who I actually met at the Austin Film Festival. Did you meet him there?

**Craig:** I have met T-Bone in Nashville actually.

**John:** Very nice. So, he was there with Callie Khouri, his wife, who is also the creator of Nashville, so he was there. And he wrote this thing that you wanted to talk about, so we’ll talk about that.

**Craig:** Yup.

**John:** I want to talk about damsels in distress, and that meme and that trope and sort of what we can do about that.

We have a bunch of reader questions — listener questions. A question about synonyms. A question about breaking the back of a script. We have a question about speccing a pilot. The end of the second act. And that uncomfortable middle in a screenwriting career. So, we have a big show day. A lot on our plate and our agenda, so we should probably get started.

**Craig:** Yeah, I’m going to get my head straight, man. Let’s do this.

**John:** Let’s do this.

So, small bits of housekeeping. First off, t-shirts. We saw so many t-shirts in Austin, which was great, the Scriptnotes t-shirts in blue and in orange.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** Well, the big news is that starting today we are selling another batch of t-shirts. They’re black and they look really, really good. Just like the last time, we are going to do two weeks of preorders, and that’s it. We basically take the preorders, we count up how many shirts we have to make in each size, and we just make those shirts. And so that way we don’t have to stock shirts. We don’t have to do this all the time. It’s sort of a once or twice a year thing we’re going to do.

So, starting today, we are taking orders. We are closing orders on Friday, November 15. We will start shipping these t-shirts out on December 2. So, if you are interested in buying a Scriptnotes t-shirt, they’re at store.johnaugust.com. And they’re available starting today.

**Craig:** Uh, can I get one?

**John:** You can get one. You’re guaranteed. As a host of a show, you’re guaranteed exactly one t-shirt.

**Craig:** Oh, this is why I do this show.

**John:** Yeah, for the t-shirts.

**Craig:** Yeah!

**John:** Just like going to the Austin Film Festival for like the little goodie bag, which has like the most impractical things to have.

**Craig:** They didn’t even give me one. What was in it?

**John:** So, there’s like a Stella Artois glass.

**Craig:** Okay.

**John:** Like a small, miniature version, so it wouldn’t even enough to hold like a whole Stella Artois, but there’s a glass for it. Which is like, we all traveled here, so we’re going to have to pack this? No, so of course that just got left in the hotel room.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** Although other years they’ve had like Tito’s Vodka, which is lovely, but you can’t take that on a plane, either.

**Craig:** No.

**John:** The gift bags, I understand why they exist. You’re trying to reward your sponsors. You’re trying to do nice things for your panelists. But they’re frustrating at times.

**Craig:** Yeah. I think given the nature of what’s going on over there, just some aspirin. Some aspirin. [laughs] Some Tylenol. Xanax.

**John:** All of these would be really good, helpful things.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** Yeah. So, t-shirts. On sale now. If you want a t-shirt, go to store.johnaugust.com.

Next up, I’m going back to New York for Big Fish on Saturday November 23. I’m doing at talk back after the matinee show. And so a talk back is basically you bought a ticket, you came to see the show. After the show you have a chance to talk with the creators, the actors, various people involved in the show.

We will answer your questions. We will talk about the things that you just saw. Those are a fun thing to do that I love about Broadway shows. And so we try to do a talk back every week. Saturday, November 23 will be my talk back. And so if you are interested in coming to that show, get yourself a ticket. Use the SCRIPT discount code by all means. But then email ask@johnaugust.com to let me know that you’re planning on coming.

Space is going to be limited. I think we can only take 60 people. So, if that fills up, we may be emailing back saying sorry, or we’ll do something to change the venue or make it work.

**Craig:** Exciting. I wish I could be there for that.

**John:** The last bit of housekeeping is a lot of people have asked how you and I record the show. And so obviously in Austin we were together in a room, but that’s the exception rather than the rule.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** Most times we’re doing what we’re doing right now, we’re talking on Skype. So, there’s a post up on johnaugust.com right now to explain how we actually do the show, including our microphones, and our headphones, and what Stuart does, and how it all fits together.

**Craig:** Oh, I can’t wait to find out what Stuart does. This is exciting.

**John:** Yeah. So, Stuart, the magical elf, stitches our audio together. It works, and we’re happy to share our way of doing things, which is not the only way to do things, but it’s the way we do our podcast.

**Craig:** It is our way.

**John:** It is our way.

So, let’s get to our new business which is let’s start with the thing you emailed me today which is this Hollywood Reporter article about T-Bone Burnet.

**Craig:** Right. And, you know, so, this was something that Glen Mazzara of Walking Dead fame — among other things — put on Facebook. And it was about music and the music business. But Glen always posts interesting articles. I tend to read the stuff that he curates. And also I met T-Bone. He’s a really cool guy. I mean, honestly, first of all his name is T-Bone, right? And then he’s married to Callie and he’s awesome. So, I thought, okay, I’ll check this out.

I was so pleasantly surprised to find this umbrage screed in it that spoke to my inner angry, angry man. And taught me something about the attitude of Silicon Valley toward content that I didn’t realize. He had such a good insight. So, basically, I don’t have to read the whole thing. I’m going to summarize.

Basically what he says is, look, there was this cultural thing of what happened in Northern California. Northern California, those guys up there were, what do you call, the Grateful Dead, right? They love the Grateful Dead. The culture of Northern California is very Grateful Dead of the seventies. And the Grateful Dead as a band was all about live performance, improvisation, and bootlegging. They were never about one version.

No one cares about the one album version of a Grateful Dead song. The whole point of the Grateful Dead is that they didn’t care either. They were high out of their minds and it was entirely about the experience of the moment, and freedom, and just sharing stuff. And as he points out, the actual business that is connected to the Grateful Dead is “a complete travesty now.”

And then on the other side, you had Metallica which is a decidedly not hippie dippy Northern California band. And Metallica very famously took a stand against Napster and really said, “Look, we control the music we make and we make definitive versions. Obviously we tour and we make live albums, but this is the version that we are putting out there that we own and we frankly don’t want to be circulated around for free because we care for it and it matters to us.”

And his point is that the attitude of, “Oh, la, da, da, music, it’s free!” permeated Silicon Valley in a way that eventually led to the great reduction of the music industry through technology. That there’s a philosophical undercurrent to Silicon Valley, that content should be free. And interestingly, as he points out, these people who promote this technology and say, “Look, we just basically want to spread content around for free,” they also, while they’re doing that, are you making you pay for the conduits through which they spread it.

That there is an underlying hypocrisy to the whole thing, and as he points out, if we talked about tearing down the car industry in the way that we tore down the music industry, people would go nuts. He says, “People in Hollywood, we should go up there with pitchforks and torches to Silicon Valley now. Unfortunately that’s how sophisticated our response would be — pitchforks and torches.”

What a great, great essay.

**John:** So, what I find compelling about this last part about the car industry versus the music industry, or you can carry that through to the Hollywood filmmaking industry, is I think we have this mental model of what it is like to be working at a car plant. We have like what a worker there does. But we don’t have a mental model of what a grip does, what a gaffer does, what these people do, and sort of what the middle class life is like to make movies, or in this case what the middle class life is to be the artist behind things, the screenwriter, director, the creative producer behind a project. So, since we don’t have a model of what it’s like to lose those jobs, because they’re not going to one place, and there’s not a factory closing down, you can’t see that loss the same way.

But, just like in the music industry, there’s a middle class of film people that are sort of disappearing. TV has taken up some of that slack. God bless television.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** But it has been a real factor.

**Craig:** No question. No question.

**John:** One of the things I also found interesting with his point, this was his quote: “And what’s happened in reality is the power has been consolidated into very, very few companies, and the middle class musician has just been wiped out.” And this con, as he describes it, is that we talk about this sort of freedom and liberation and anyone can get to music and its democratizing things, but the same companies that were sort of fighting to shoot down Napster and file sharing and sort of all the ways that music became free, they paradoxically became more powerful, because they’re the last people standing.

**Craig:** Yes!

**John:** So, all of the middle group of businesses that couldn’t withstand that onslaught disappeared. And that’s how a lot of people made their living was through those kind of things. And so you can say, “Tough. You got to tour more. You got to do other things.” That’s not true if you’re with the people who are making those albums, and if your life was responsible for making those albums, you’re life has gone away.

**Craig:** Right. And the apparatus they use to support the tours is gone. He says the internet has been an “honest to god con.” And I really want people to think about this, because T-Bone is exactly right. They have fed us the opposite of what they have done. They have appealed to the artistic spirit of freedom. They have appealed to the artistic spirit of freedom. They have appealed to the artistic spirit of wanting to share what you create. And in doing so, they have devalued it and taken all of the money out of it. Or a lot of it.

They’ve done it in music. They want to do it in movies for sure. And I think that, frankly, the only thing that saved us in movies other than the slightly longer path towards quick downloads of movies has been that the movie industry saw what happened to the music industry and they were the canary in the coal mine and they’ve tried everything. And they are trying everything to avoid this.

But when you hear that Google and Amazon want information to be free, what you’re actually hearing is that they want to make all of the money off of your work, and you get none. And I’ve noticed that one of the weaknesses of our union is that in their hatred of our direct employers, they often look to the wrong places for salvation. And our — I sense the Writers Guild constantly looking at Google and Amazon, like they’ll come save us.

Oh, no. Oh, no, no, no, no. Oh, they will bury us. They will bury us. They want to bury us. Of course they do.

Oh god, that felt good.

**John:** [sighs] A sobering bit of umbrage to get us started here.

**Craig:** Mm-hmm. Thank you, T-Bone. That was great.

**John:** We don’t have to provide answers, we just have to point out problems.

**Craig:** [laughs] And make ourselves feel better momentarily.

**John:** So, for our next topic, I think we can provide if not answers at least some context for better ways that writers can involve themselves in helping the situations. This is damseling, the idea of damsels in distress, which is not only what’s still in film, or sort of a classic trope. It’s a thing that you see not just in movies or television shows, but also in video games. And the best way I sort of got introduced to this idea and sort of the pervasiveness of this idea is this great three-part series that Anita Sarkeesian did called Tropes versus Women in Videogames.

And so videogames, because they tend to be so linear, the goal is often to save the princess. And so in save the princess you have Donkey Kong, you have Mario trying to save Princess Peach. We all get that. We sort of know what that is.

And on some level we know like, oh, god, women characters don’t do very well in videogames because they are just something to be saved. They are the goal. Either you have to rescue the princess or you have to avenge the death of your wife, or some girl who has been killed.

**Craig:** Yes.

**John:** And that’s a classic trope in those thing. And even as videogames have become more technically and narratively complex, the underlying story behind the women characters tends not to be more complex.

You can even point to this new Grand Theft Auto. There are female characters, but they’re not…

**Craig:** Barely. Barely.

**John:** Yeah, there’s not playable in the ways that other things can be played.

**Craig:** No. Well, let’s extend back a little bit. Damseling is something that has gone on forever. Videogames are obsessed with it in the way that super hero movies are obsessed with it. Even when super hero movies attempt to make female super heroes, they seem to end up in a damseling situation. And that’s not surprising in a sense. There is a certain kind of very male story that appeals to a very male fantasy to essentially be the all powerful man who rescues and provides for a woman who needs rescuing and providing for. That fits into the heterosexual, hetero-normal male perception, particularly for adolescent males and males with Aspergers. It seems like it gets right in there.

And I get it. I get that.

**John:** But we constantly reinforce this idea. So, you can say like it’s a primal innate idea. Great. But there’s lot of ideas that are primal and innate and we are able to sometimes acknowledge them, lampshade them, and move on.

So, one of the first articles I found when I searched for “damsels in distress” was this complex.com article about the 15 hottest damsels in distress in movies.

**Craig:** [laughs]

**John:** I thought it was exactly perfect. So, I want to read you…

**Craig:** It’s stupid.

**John:** It does two things at once. So, Rachel Nichols in Conan the Barbarian.

**Craig:** Sure.

**John:** Sure. Live Tyler in The Incredible Hulk.

**Craig:** Hot always.

**John:** Yeah, I forget. Is she supposed to be the scientist, or is she just like the scientist’s daughter?

**Craig:** I believe she is the general’s daughter.

**John:** The general’s daughter.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** Michelle Monaghan in Mission: Impossible 3.

**Craig:** Okay, yeah.

**John:** Maggie Grace in Taken.

**Craig:** Sure.

**John:** She’s literally, she’s the MacGuffin. She is the thing that is taken.

**Craig:** Right. She basically is the briefcase from Pulp Fiction. [laughs]

**John:** Yes. Kirsten Dunst in Spider-Man.

**Craig:** Well, of course.

**John:** Pretty much any girl in a super hero movie tends to become a damsel in distress.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** This is debatable. Carrie Fisher as Princess Leia.

**Craig:** Eh, I mean, you know, she’s tough. She comes out fighting and she is in distress because she’s a princess and they’ve captured her. But they rescue her in the middle.

**John:** They do rescue her in the middle. And also you sense that the classic image you see is like her in chains next to Jabba the Hutt, but it’s a setup. And so when you realize that this is all part of a plan kind of.

**Craig:** Right, I mean, but look: here’s the truth. For instance in Empire, she comes back real tough to save Han Solo and immediately gets all kissy face and then gets chained up in a bikini. It’s damseling.

**John:** It’s damseling.

**Craig:** It’s damsel.

**John:** You have a competent woman who is then reduced to being an object for the men to rescue.

**Craig:** To rescue and save. Exactly.

**John:** Blake Lively is classically the damsel in Savages, a movie that I talked about at Austin because I actually kind of really dig Savages for the weird things it did, but she is just the thing you have to rescue.

**Craig:** Yeah. I didn’t see it, so, but I’ll take your word for it.

**John:** Robin Wright as the princess in The Princess Bride.

**Craig:** Wonderful movie. Great character.

**John:** Wonderful movie.

**Craig:** I don’t believe she makes a choice in the film.

**John:** Nope. Keira Knightley in Pirates of the Caribbean.

**Craig:** Um…

**John:** Now, in later films they tried to sort of swashbuckler her more.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** But she ultimately is the pretty thing you have to save.

**Craig:** She is beautiful. And one of the characters has to save her. I actually disagree with this one to some extent. I think that this one was an interesting — an interesting post-modern take on the damsel.

**John:** Naomi Watts in King Kong.

**Craig:** Well, sure.

**John:** The girl in King Kong is the damsel. Yes. Cameron Diaz in The Mask. And I had to think back to The Mask, but my recollection of it was it was a character who seemed to have her own thing and then just becomes a plot device.

**Craig:** She was a chanteuse.

**John:** She was a chanteuse.

**Craig:** And then she got damselled.

**John:** Jessica Alba in Machete. I never saw Machete.

**Craig:** It’s accurate.

**John:** Yes. Rosie Huntington-Whiteley in Transformers: Dark of the Moon. The fact that I have no idea who she is and that she’s really pretty and she’s in a Michael Bay movie are signs that she’s probably going to be a damsel in distress.

**Craig:** I mean, honestly, I don’t even know how the guy that made the list picked these 15, because there’s 15 damsels in distress every week.

**John:** These are the hottest ones, though.

**Craig:** Oh, these are the hottest ones. Oh, I see. Oh.

**John:** And, I have to give him props for Ursula Andress as Dr. Honey Ryder — as Honey Ryder in Dr. No.

**Craig:** Yeah. She was not a doctor.

**John:** She was not a doctor. Although, Dr. Christmas Snow from one of the Bond movies.

**Craig:** Christmas Jones.

**John:** Christmas Jones. You’re absolutely right.

**Craig:** Yes, you know me. I’m a Bond scientist.

**John:** Christmas Snow is actually Chrissy Snow from Three’s Company. Her name is Chrissy Snow.

**Craig:** Oh, really?

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** I did not know that.

**John:** I actually have quite a bit of knowledge of Three’s Company. It’s very deeply ingrained in my soul.

**Craig:** [hums Threes Company theme]

**John:** You can knock on my door any time.

**Craig:** Here’s the thing. Well, first of all, I don’t know how familiar you are with Anita Sarkeesian, but she was sort of involved in this very disturbing episode in videogame culture, where she really is as far as I can tell the only person that is very verbal about feminist concerns. I don’t know how else you can point and say — I mean, you can call them humanist concerns about the way videogames portray women, and the vitriol that was piled on her was horrifying. And, obviously, confirmed everything she said and then some. She’s very smart.

And I want her to be listened to. I play videogames. I like videogames. I don’t mind saving the damsel every now and again, but videogames are trailing so far behind movies and film, which are all also damseling, so that’s how bad videogames are. They’re infantile. Their portrayal of women is infantile to the point where it’s how much bigger can the boobs get. It’s just stupid. It’s stupid!

**John:** I was looking through the TV Tropes article on Damsels in Distress. So, if you ever have a question about themes in movies, TV Tropes is a great place to go to. So, these are some of the themes that TV Tropes pointed out about Damsels in Distress. And then you hear them you think like, oh yeah, I get what that is.

Chained to a rock.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** It’s a Prometheus classic.

The Girl in the Tower. So, she’s isolated up there and you have to go save her in this tower.

Hypnotize the Princess, basically the bad guy has not only taken the princess, but has corrupted the princess so that the princess is going to do his will, sometimes even after you rescue her she’s dangerous.

**Craig:** Jafar.

**John:** Jafar.

The Living MacGuffin.

**Craig:** [laughs]

**John:** MacGuffin classically is that plot device the hero is going after, but it doesn’t even really matter what they’re going after. It’s just the reason why the plot is there.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** I have your wife.

The president’s daughter, which if you really stop and think about it, like oh god, how often does the president’s daughter become a thing?

**Craig:** I mean, it just gets…

**John:** And the best topic for me I think is Faux Action Girl, which they define as it sort of seems like she’s a badass action chick, and everyone sort of treats her like that, but if you actually look at what she does in the movie, she’s not an action chick at all. She’s sort of dressed like an action chick, but she actually is kind of useless and doesn’t do anything for herself.

**Craig:** I think someone saw The Avengers, huh?

**John:** Uh-huh.

**Craig:** I mean, look, I can’t say that it’s wrong to tell a very simple traditional narrative where you’re saving a princess in a castle. There’s something almost sweet about it. I mean, you guys did it with your videogame. With Karateka.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** But where it gets sick, I think, is when it’s not a choice. When it’s just — there are these things that happen called sub-choices, where you never get to the area of choice. You don’t make a — you know what, we’re going to do a traditional simple sweet story where Mario finds the Princess in a castle. It doesn’t even occur to you that there would be another thing to do.

And this is an area where I actually am very proud of my particular genre, because I think comedies have often been ahead of the curve on this one. Not to say that female driven comedies haven’t really exploded in the last four or five years, because they have. Even in romantic comedies, where women are the protagonists.

So, let’s go all the way back to a super, super down the middle romantic comedy like While You Were Sleeping. She is not a damsel in distress in that movie.

**John:** No. She is driving the story.

**Craig:** She’s driving the story. And, to me, comedies — so, that’s why, when I look at damsel in distress movies, I kind of shrug and I just think, really, that’s, I mean, I don’t know. There’s just so much more…

**John:** They’re not the things you’re writing, but even sometimes if the girl is the central character, she ends up being in damsel. So, you look at Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz. She ultimately gets trapped there with the witch and it’s not until everyone else shows up that she’s able to do anything. It’s sort of like dumb luck that she throws the bucket of water.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** But she gets trapped there.

Bella in Twilight. She’s theoretically the lead character in Twilight, but she’s just there to be rescued most of the time.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** We talked about Indiana Jones and what a great character Marion is, except this incredibly competent woman ultimately becomes a captive.

**Craig:** Right. And by the way, the screenplay I’m writing right now has a very competent woman who ends up captive. [laughs] And I think possibly chained to a rock. And you know what? I made that choice because the truth is the male character, who is the lead of the movie, must save her. But that’s what I needed.

**John:** So, I’m actually writing something at the same time too which in outline form one of the main guys needs to save his girlfriend, or believes he needs to save his girlfriend. And I looked at it again and I looked at it from the perspective of damsel and it’s like, oh, god, I’m trying to find a way to not do that, because…

**Craig:** Yeah, but you do it.

**John:** …it’s simple and simple is lovely, but it may not be the right choice.

**Craig:** Well, listen, then the point is we’re making the choice. And I guess that’s what I would say to people out there. I’m not here to tell you that you can’t write a damsel story anymore, because damsels don’t — women that I know aren’t damsels, but men aren’t heroes either. Okay? And, by the way, women aren’t heroes. Nobody is a hero or a damsel.

In Identity Thief, it’s clear who the damsel in distress is for the entire movie and it’s Jason Bateman. And basically Melissa is torturing the man. But at no point is she, I mean, there’s a point where they get thrown into the back of a cop car and she’s the one rescuing them.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** But that was a choice for that, and this needs the other way. But make the choice.

**John:** Make the choice. And sometimes there are, I want to point out a few movies that have made the choice and sort of found ways to address the damseling that could be useful if you’re facing that situation yourself.

Pepper Potts in the first Iron Man. So, she is the girl in the film, and there’s the expectation like, oh, she’s going to be in danger, she’s going to be at risk. But she’s never actually damselled. She’s trying to do something and she ends up getting shot rather than being held as a captive. And she was being a hero. And she’s being a hero through that situation, so she’s an integral part of the story, but she’s not the object of what he needs to save.

**Craig:** Yeah, I mean, I can’t say that not capturing the damsel, but shooting the secretary instead is necessary a huge step forward for female kind, but…

**John:** Absolutely. I bring it up because she is not the primary focus of these people going after each other. And she’s not being used as bait or as a chick at the end it, which I think is at least useful. So, a female hero being shot is not the worst thing to happen.

**Craig:** [laughs] — Says John August in service to advancing the cause of feminism. Go ahead and just shoot them.

**John:** Shoot them. So, Daphne in Scooby Doo. And so I had the pleasure of being involved in Scooby Doo. One of the things I enjoy about Scooby Doo is that Daphne, that character, she is always being held hostage, she’s always getting tied up, and she’s always in trouble. And so in James Gunn’s version of it, he hangs a lantern on it and he says that character, like they bring up the fact that she always gets held captive and she actually now will train herself and so she’s a stronger, tougher fighter because of that.

So, that’s a choice sometimes, too, is to acknowledge the fact that this is expectation of what’s going to happen to her, and hang a lantern on it, and then subvert the expectation.

**Craig:** Mm-hmm.

**John:** And so everyone will approach every movie with a set of expectations. They will approach the expectation in an action movie that this girl could become captive, so address it, and subvert it if that works in your story.

**Craig:** If that, yeah.

**John:** Shrek does the same thing. Where you see she’s a beautiful princess, she’s going to be in trouble. No, she’s going to call that idea out and say, “Nope, that’s not going to happen to me.”

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** Finally, Sansa in Game of Thrones. And TV is a little bit different because it goes on for so long, but without any spoilers, Sansa, even as we leave this current batch of the series, she is sort of the Princess in the Tower. She’s stuck there and yet while in a general sense there’s a quest to try to get her out of her situation, she’s doing other stuff herself. And so she’s not the sole goal of male characters going to try to save her.

And so she’s part of a very elaborate web of intrigue and decisions and plots, but it’s not just about her being a princess.

**Craig:** Well that’s an interesting concept for me at least. I like the idea that you can present a damsel in distress. And I do think of the character of Sansa as a damsel in distress. And then watch her evolve naturally as a character out of it. Even in movies you can do this.

So, like everybody, I worship The Godfather, and The Godfather Part II. And even though The Godfather Part III has parts that don’t match, obviously, to the quality of the first two, there is one thing about it that I think is extraordinary, and that’s the evolution of Connie.

Because in the first movie she is truly a damsel in distress. She’s being beaten by her husband, and Sonny goes and rescues her. I mean, she gets beaten up by her husband. And in the second movie she is a mess and she blames Michael for ruining her life. And she’s just a heap.

In the third movie she becomes this dragon woman, this amazing force who is holding the family together. Is the spine in Michael’s back. And who is the one that essentially creates the continuity of the line so that the Corleones will forever reign. And that is an amazing thing to watch.

I love that about the third Godfather movie. And I don’t know where the Game of Thrones will take us, because I haven’t read the books ahead. I don’t want to. I like watching them on the show now. But I hope that Sansa evolves. It’s fun.

**John:** Absolutely. So, none of this should be taken as a plea to sort of keep female characters out of danger. Danger is good. Danger is great. The issue comes when you take a character who is in danger just to propel the plot along, especially if you are taking a woman who is previously portrayed as being competent and deliberately making her incompetent at some moment in the third act, or kidnapping her in some moment of the third act so that the male character can go rescue her.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** It’s just such a trope and I think it diminishes what stories can do and I think it sends a really weird message for people watching movies that this is how life should be. And that no matter how competent you are as a woman, eventually you’re going to have to have a man come rescue you.

**Craig:** Right. And I would also ask/suggest that in the spirit of changing language to change the way we think or approach things, that we stop referring to grown women in movies as girls.

**John:** Yes.

**Craig:** It’s just lame. And I occasionally have to catch myself, because it’s common parlance, you know, “He meets the girl.”

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** Oh who’s going to be the girl in the movie, you know, it just — but it’s like why is that the one thing we’ve kept from 1930s Hollywood lingo?

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** You know? Because while we’ll say “boy meets girl,” he plays a guy, we’ll say that, “a guy.” So, this man, but she’s the girl. She’s always the girl. So, I say maybe adults deserve woman at this point.

**John:** I agree.

Let’s go to our first question. This first one comes from Joe in Brooklyn, New York.

**Craig:** Hey, Joe, what’s up?

**John:** “I had a question about credits. If a writer gets a script made into a film, but is unhappy with the final product, can he get his name removed from it? Directors have the Alan Smithee pseudonym to follow back. Do writers have something similar?”

**Craig:** Yeah, we do. If the movie is not a Writers Guild covered film, then I think frankly it’s a matter of your individual contract, and if it’s not mentioned in the contract than you’d have to negotiate for a pseudonym. Your right of attribution, that’s a moral right, a Droit Moral, that we don’t have here in the United States. And overseas it’s entirely up to you. Here in the United States where we have work for hire, the Writers Guild and the contract that we have with the companies states that under movies that are created through Writers Guild contracts, we are allowed to use pseudonyms unless I believe we’re paid more than $250,000. It’s somewhere between $200,000 and $250,000.

At that point if they paid us that much, we don’t have the inalienable right to take our name off the movie. Their argument being you must be somebody that was worth something to us. Now we have the right to say no to your request to take your name off the movie. Let’s say we really want to say that John August wrote this movie, or “From the writer of the movie Go,” or whatever they want to promote, they’re not going to just let you on your own decide to take your name off.

You have to ask. In all cases, the pseudonym that you use needs to be registered with the Writers Guild so that it doesn’t duplicate the actual name of another person or the pseudonym that has been used by another person.

We don’t use Alan Smithee. Alan Smithee — it’s remarkable to me that frankly the Directors Guild allows that to perpetuate. I actually think it makes them look terrible.

**John:** Yeah. It’s petulant to me.

**Craig:** It’s petulant and it also is obvious. There are some very famous pseudonyms, Cordwainer Bird I think is the one that Harlan Ellison has used before that people in the know understand mean a certain person, which to me it sort of defeats the purpose of a pseudonym. It’s not longer pseudo.

Alan Smithee defeats the purpose of a pseudonym. For writers, we get to choose our own, and I know writers that have chosen to use pseudonyms. Easier to just not see credit, although if you use a pseudonym you will get the associated residuals and production bonuses and so forth.

**John:** Yeah, which can be very useful.

**Craig:** Yup.

**John:** So, this $250,000 cap, I always take that to mean that at a certain threshold the studio believes that your publicity value is actually useful, and so therefore they want the ability to promote that. And I have seen movies where I don’t think they necessarily care about the writer’s name, but they’d love to be able to say, “From the writer of…something.”

**Craig:** That’s exactly right.

**John:** And that’s why they want to be able to do that.

**Craig:** And they picked that number, basically, and that’s how these negotiations work, because the contract covers everyone. So, obviously they wanted that number to be as low as possible, whereas the Writers Guild will want it to be as high as possible. I think $200,000 to $250,000 is unreasonably low, frankly, but it was set many, many years ago and we have other fish to fry when we deal with those guys.

**John:** Agreed.

Next question comes from Tucker. He writes, “You mentioned on a podcast a long while back that you often have to go away from your family on a retreat of some kind to ‘break the back’ of the script. I ask because I’m working on my first studio job at home, with a family around me, and they don’t understand why I’m acting like an insane person when ‘little things pop up that need to be done.’ Can you call Wells Fargo and chat with customer service for an hour? Can you handle the AT&T repair guy who needs to be chaperoned? Can you, can you, can you?”

**Craig:** Mm-hmm.

**John:** “I wish I was at some desert hotel somewhere.”

**Craig:** [laughs] Well, you know, I do think at some point we should do — there’s an entire podcast to be done about the spouses, the poor, poor spouses of writers. I think that Tucker has got a false dichotomy here. So, retreating and going into the desert is not the same as not being in your house with your family around you.

You can be around the corner. You can be at a Starbucks if you need to. I do believe that you must separate from your family and your children for certain hours of the day in order to get your work done. That’s not selfish. Everybody else gets to do it, so why don’t we?!

And you know they don’t understand what it means to be yanked out of your own head when you’re in it, either because you’re suffering in your head, or you’re succeeding in your head. The last thing you want is to be pulled out of it. And you can be irritable and it’s not good for them and it’s not good for you. And, you’re right, they don’t understand.

What they do understand is daddy is working. And daddy goes around the corner to work. Or daddy goes into the backyard. Or daddy goes down the street. You don’t have to go to the desert.

**John:** I think you’re right about the sense of a writer needs to take responsibility for how he or she is both being a writer and both being a member of a family. And so that daily work balance is going to be an ongoing negotiation between the writer and the family.

Tucker, I think, is sort of asking two questions. He’s asking that daily life question. That first paragraph, though, was about breaking the back of something. And that’s something I actually do. And even before I had a family, I would go away to barricade myself in a room to get started on a script, and I still do it to this day.

To me what’s so helpful about going someplace else to start is that I’m out of my normal environment, and so I’ve shown up someplace to do nothing other than work on this thing. And every waking moment can be about that thing.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** And I’ll often go to the place where the movie is going to be set so I can sort of live in that environment and sort of see what that’s like, although I’ve often gone to Vegas to do it, too, because Vegas midweek is really cheap. And when you get completely stir crazy in your room in Vegas you can just wander and go someplace else. And you can be alone around a lot of people very easily in Vegas, especially I’m not drinking, I’m not gambling, so I’m a weirdo in Vegas, but it’s kind of great. And there’s food, and all that stuff is lovely.

**Craig:** You’re right. Aside from the context of your relationship with your family, you may be the kind of writer that needs to separate from reality itself and enter a bubble world in order to enter your bubble world. I get that. I can enter bubble world wherever. You can put me on my roof and I can do it. But there are a lot of people that really benefit from that.

I know Rian Johnson just spent quite a long time in Paris because he was breaking the back of his next movie and he needed to essentially go separate from everything and, you know, we don’t give ourselves enough credit for the relationship between the way we’re feeling in the moment around us and how we’re feeling when we’re writing. This is why writers drink. This is why they do all sorts of self-destructive things because, frankly, it makes the writing easier.

It doesn’t make your life easier. So, if you can find safe ways to do it, like sitting in a room in Vegas and not killing prostitutes, then I say absolutely.

**John:** So, my breaking the back process is I will generally hop on a plane, be someplace, and every waking moment is about that script or about one boring book that I’m allowed to go to. So, I don’t turn on the TV. I don’t turn on the iPad. I don’t turn on my phone. And it’s only about that. And what’s useful is I’ll wake up in the morning and I will force myself to hand write a scene before I’m allowed to get out of bed.

I will have breakfast, and I will force myself to hand write a new scene before I can do the next thing I want to do. And so in that process I can write 17 or 20 pages by hand in a day. If I do that for three or four days, I’ve got 45, 50 pages of my script started. And that’s usually breaking the back for me. Once I feel like I have — I’m writing out of sequence, so I’m not necessarily just writing the first act. But I really know who those characters are. I know what the world is. I know what the voices are. And I’m back into sort of full writing mode.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** Because a lot of times between big writing assignments, I’m not writing that much. And so sometimes I just need to actually sort of build up some steam and sort of get those muscles back working.

**Craig:** Yes.

**John:** Then it’s much easier for me to get started doing stuff. I try also not to put all those pages together right away. I want to get up to like 60 or 65 pages of sort of knowing that I have that much material before I start pasting all those things together and seeing the whole script. If I do that too early, if I start looking at the whole script too early I will start editing and moving commas around and I will never get the full thing bit.

**Craig:** You know, and for me, that is part of it. Part of the work that I do. What’s interesting is that while we can agree that separating from people while you’re in that space is a good thing, even if you just are going around the corner, or if you’re going somewhere else, what we also know is that we’re very different. All of us are very different.

I’ve heard so many different — everybody it seems has their own unique approach to tricking themselves into writing and part of the struggle of being a new writer is you’re figuring out what works for you. And so, unfortunately, you’re just going to have to figure it out.

**John:** Yes. You are the guinea pig and the scientist.

**Craig:** All at the same time.

**John:** Next question is — I didn’t write down the person’s name, but it’s about speccing a pilot. He writes, or she writes, I think it’s a he: “I’ve been trying to start a career as a screenwriter for the last 18 months. And though I’ve gotten some positive feedback, I have not yet secured representation from a manager or an agent. A producer approached me recently about writing an outline for a spec TV pilot, which I did.

“He liked the outline, and now wants me to write the full script for the pilot.”

**Craig:** Oh, does he?

**John:** “And is asking what I expect in terms of compensation.”

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** “I looked at the scheduled minimums in the WGA basic agreement.”

**Craig:** Rational.

**John:** “But I have gotten the distinct impression that the producer is not willing to pay me the amount that document stipulates.”

**Craig:** What?! [laughs]

**John:** “His company is not a WGA signatory. And I’m not a WGA member, so I feel like I have no leverage here. I want to do the job because it would be my first paid writing gig, but I don’t want to undervalue myself. I feel clueless about what I should do next.” Craig Mazin…

**Craig:** Mm-hmm.

**John:** …help this person out.

**Craig:** [stifling a scream] Okay. So, look, everything that has happened is as I have foreseen. [laughs] Of course you want to be a paid writer. Of course. And of course. You don’t want to undervalue yourself. And of course you feel clueless about what’s going on. And of course the producer has presented himself as somebody who knows exactly what’s going on. And of course he wants you to write this for free. Of course.

You know why? Because all that makes sense for him. The one thing that he has over you is he’s not an artist who is — I don’t want to use the word desperate. He is not an artist who craves approval for the art. He is a businessman who is going to make money off of you. Okay?

So, he is in a great space because he can ask for these things with no problem, knowing full well that you have an emotion involved that he doesn’t have to deal with. Please resist this emotion.

Here’s the deal: in your letter you say “I feel like I have no leverage.” Incorrect. You have all of the leverage. Let me repeat. You have all of the leverage. Not 99%. 100%. And the leverage is that you own the writing. It is yours. The copyright is yours.

Everything that is attached to it, and every decision that will be made, up until the point where you assign copyright to somebody else, all of that is yours. And his game is to convince you that you have nothing. [laughs] Do you see how this works? Pretty amazing. So, friend, here’s the deal. You can do whatever you want. What you can’t do is work for hire.

Work for hire means I don’t have the copyright anymore. Somebody else has the copyright and they’re commissioning the work for me. That’s what you do when you run into a studio. You dig? And that is a Writers Guild job, and there are minimums, and credit protections, and health, and pension, and all sorts of great things, residuals and so on.

Until that moment, you do not sell it. You can option it. Haven’t sold it yet. Okay? Or, you can write it and shop it around. And then is somebody is in love with it, they can take it into a studio. But you do not sell it. A financier may come along and say we want to do it independently, non-union. Great. Here’s my lawyer. Work out what I get when this movie — and now I’ve got a backend on this thing. Whatever you do, just remember you have all the leverage.

**John:** Yeah. So, what Craig is making the strong distinction between is a work for hire, which is what writers do when they work for a studio. They are a work for hire and you are assigning copyright to that person and they are paying you to write.

**Craig:** Yes.

**John:** That is a very different thing from here’s writing something. This producer may ultimately option that thing you write and try to set it up at a studio, or you may just honestly have a handshake, like a shopping agreement essentially. “I’m allowing you to take it to these places and that person may be able to set it up.”

So, you value their interaction. You value their notes. But don’t value their money because it’s not going to be that much money. So, write the thing so you own it. And once it’s written, if that person still wants to do something with it, you can have that conversation about an option agreement, some sort of shopping agreement. But do not write for this person for less than this amount of money.

**Craig:** And as always, please seek the advice of an attorney.

**John:** So, this is a related question. Toby writes, “I’m writing because I have achieved a level of success that is not quite amateur, but not quite big time pro. I have been paid and I am patterned with a bestselling novelist to adapt his next release. However, I have found the biggest problem a writer of my level has is the pressure to work for free is unrelenting.”

**Craig:** Hmm.

**John:** “I would say that almost 100% of my non-general meetings have been with producers who have property they want to turn into a screenplay. These producers are people who have had at least one producer credit to their name and seem to have credible projects with life right, novel rights, etc. They’re just unwilling to pay any money for a draft.”

**Craig:** Oh, imagine that.

**John:** “To illustrate my point, I’ve included an mail exchange with my former manager in which he is asking me to extend an option on a spec script of mine that he originally optioned for free. He clearly wants the script but is unwilling to pay for it.”

This is a quote from this manager. “Reality is that it will be unrealistic for you to think that anyone will pay an option for this script. It is simply not done anymore. I also have spent an undo amount of time on all of our projects…”

**Craig:** Undue amount. Undue amount!

**John:** Oh yeah. An undue amount.

**Craig:** Undue. It wasn’t due.

**John:** Yes. Oh, it’s actually the wrong kind of due, that’s true. “Not to mention the notes I give to make your script better early on. I offered my services on this one as a gesture of good faith for all the time you’ve spent.”

**Craig:** Argh. Argh.

**John:** “But I don’t think you’ve ever really accepted the fact that there is no monetizing the time we spend in this entertainment game unless the projects go.”

**Craig:** Ugh.

**John:** Craig Mazin, do you find any part of that quote to be true?

**Craig:** It’s actually amazing how it’s all the opposite of true! Every word is the opposite of true. What a con artist! What a con artist.

First of all, let’s go backwards. “I don’t think you have ever really accepted the fact that there is no monetizing the time we spend in this entertainment game unless the projects go.” Wrong! There is no monetizing it for you, the not writer who doesn’t write stuff, unless the projects go. This is just me, me, me, me, me, but it’s not about the writer because we get paid all the time for movies that aren’t made.

You know why? Because there’s a value to what we do that is so important that they’re willing to give us money for stuff that they don’t even know they want to make. But, go back a little further. He has “spent an undo” — misspelled — “amount of time on all of our projects Not to mention the notes I gave to make your script better early on.”

Dude, screw off. We don’t need you. Okay?

**John:** Yeah. By the way, those notes you were giving, that was to build this relationship that you are now throwing under the bus so you can get a free extension on this offer.

**Craig:** Right. You joined with me in partnership. And the partnership was this: You’re going to help me. I’m going to write a script. I’m going to get paid, and you’re going to get 10%. Isn’t that wonderful? And now you’re complaining that I’m making choices that might keep you from your belief of how we’re going to get your 10%. And suddenly all these things I did for you were favors.

No they’re not. And this is why managers make me sick sometimes, because they do this nonsense. They play these nonsense games. And because their business is crunched, crunched, they psychologically abuse the people they are supposed to be protecting. This is an abusive email.

And I’m so glad. The only thing that keeps me from not driving to Toby’s house and killing him is that it says “former manager.” Thank god.

But, listen, guys, this is tied into the same email before. I don’t care. And I have never met a writer, a successful writer, who cares about what these people need. I’ve got my own problems over here. I’m trying to write screenplays. And it’s hard. I don’t care what the producer needs. I don’t care what the manager needs. They’re supposed to be helping me! That’s the point.

Is that selfish? Eh, I guess I’m selfish. All I know is that if I write a hit movie, they end up getting so much more money than I do that I guess I can feel okay about it. [laughs] So, that’s the story. I get paid now. They get paid later. I get paid a pretty good amount now. They get paid crazy amounts later if the movie works. And I’m cool with that, but then please don’t play games with me.

**John:** Let’s go back to an earlier part of Toby’s letter where he writes that he is in these rooms with producers who have rights to things and would like him to write a script, but they don’t want to pay him to right that script.

And this is a thing that you and I all have friends who are in similar situations. Even Kelly Marcel, who was on our last podcast together, the Saving Mr. Banks was kind of that situation where she wasn’t really paid to write this script originally.

**Craig:** I don’t know if that’s true.

**John:** Well, she said in the podcast. I asked was this essentially a spec script you were writing for this producer. And she said, “Yes, there’s no money in British film.”

**Craig:** Oh, okay, yes, that’s true. And by the way, in England, yes, I remember that now. You’re absolutely right. And in England, there is such a different deal going on, because there is no work for hire and it’s a whole crazy thing. And I don’t understand how British law works, but here…

**John:** So, I would say in general, I’ve been in these kind of situations, even sort of at this point in my career. When that comes up, what they really need to be expressing this to you as is like, “Let us partner on this thing.” And I think if you’re considering coming in to write thing, it can’t be a work for hire because they’re not hiring you.

**Craig:** Correct.

**John:** They’re not paying you.

**Craig:** Correct.

**John:** So, it’s essentially like you are partnering up with them to try to develop this property into a thing that is a thing.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** And it’s a negation on both sides, because if they have some bundle of rights, well that bundle of rights is important for you to be able to write your essential spec script. And so that’s complicated. That doesn’t mean it can’t happen, but it’s going to be complicated. And that’s why you’re lucky to be, Toby, at a point in your life where you do have an agent and a manger and you have producer credits and you can figure this out.

**Craig:** That’s right.

**John:** And you are essentially becoming their partner, not just the writer that they’re hiring, because they’re not hiring.

**Craig:** And that’s the kind of push and pull of this. They have rights that they need turned into a screenplay and they can’t do it on their own. You have the ability to turn books into screenplays, but you don’t have the rights. Well, that sounds like a negotiation to me. And the product of that negotiation is an option. Right?

Now, the option could be for a dollar. It could be for zero dollars. It could be for $10,000. It depends, frankly, on where everybody is. And are there other writers they want for this? Or are you absolutely perfect? And is this a book that you absolutely love, or this is a book that you would do anything to write? Either way, when this idiot says that options simply aren’t done anymore, he’s lying.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** Lying! He’s a liar. I know that this is crazy that there are liars in Hollywood, but there are liars in Hollywood.

**John:** Let’s end on a craft question. Matt writes, “I’ve read and seen two schools of thoughts and wanted to get your opinions on both. One states that the end of the second act should be the ultimate low point, the all-is-lost moment. The other states that it’s the time when the protagonist makes his decision to go forward with his new life, or fall back on his old ways. Which one is better? Which one gets shot down more by agents or producers?” What a bad way to end the question.

**Craig:** [laughs]

**John:** What is the end of the second act to you, Craig Mazin?

**Craig:** To me, it’s neither of the things that are put here. The way that these are described are typical for books and things written by people who essentially analyze. They’re after the fact thinkers. They watch movies. They read scripts. And then they try and find patterns in them and then present those patterns. But they’re not before the fact advice. We writers, we live before the fact. We must build it, right? So what’s before the fact advice?

For me, what’s roughly going on at that point in the movie is this: the character used to believe something. They believed it, maybe for bad reasons or good reasons, but it was the thing that helped them survive. It was a thing that they would have believed for the rest of their life on some deep fundamental level had the movie not occurred.

There is another thing they should be believing, and they will believe it by the end of the story. In fact, they will believe it so strongly that they will behave in accordance with it, even at risk to their own life. However, at this point in the movie, they have become aware that what they used to believe in is not true. And what they ought to believe in is simply too scary to comprehend. They are caught. And they are adrift emotionally and they are adrift almost intellectually and they don’t know what to do. They realize they can’t go back and they don’t know how to go forward.

**John:** I don’t disagree with you, Craig, but what I will say is that what you just described does feel kind of screenwriting book theory. I think it’s Craig Mazin’s screenwriting book theory, but it does feel sort of general framework-y in terms of like the generic sort of movie protagonist hero, this is where he or she is at in their situation. So, I’m in no ways diminishing sort of what I think that is largely true, I would just point out that did sound like it could be from a screenwriting book.

**Craig:** Well, I will say that that is a portion of a thing that there’s a bunch of stuff leading up to it, in fact, this was the thing that I did in Austin that is…

**John:** I was going to ask if that was…

**Craig:** It’s sort of not, at least as far as I know, not screenwriting book-y, but look at some point all these answers I suppose will sort of — I will say there doesn’t even have to be this in the script. You know what I mean? There’s no trap where you have to do this kind of thing. But to me when it happens, this is why. It’s not — I’m more concerned about why things happen and less concerned about that they should happen.

**John:** I would challenge you to take a look at the end of the second act from the audience’s perspective, which is we’ve watched this journey, we’ve watched this movie. Whatever has been happening, that thing has just ended. And now we’re into one last push. And to me, the end of the second act/start of the third act means that we as an audience are aware that we are on the final part of this journey. And that the movie is getting ready to reach it’s big conclusion.

**Craig:** Sure.

**John:** And so it’s a thing that as an audience, even if you’re not really aware of like character motivations and stories and how thematically things are working, you have a sense that like that thing is done and now we’re in this last stretch of the movie. And that can apply to almost any genre of movie you think about. You get that sense like this is going to be the last push.

And when it’s not the last push you feel like it’s jarring. And so it has to be setup just right that you can sense like that’s done, and now we’re in this last thing.

**Craig:** Well, you know, here. You and I are kind of like the proverbial blind men describing an elephant, because we’re feeling different parts of this thing. I always think about a movie working on three essential axes at any given point. There is internally what’s going on in the protagonist’s mind. There’s what’s happening between the protagonist and the people around him. And then there’s what’s happening externally in the world around all of them. So, I was kind of sort of talking about a very internal thing. You’re talking about a very external thing, too.

And both of those must be serviced. And, similarly, the interpersonal as well. But the question of how to create that moment, I think, oftentimes I find thinking internally gets you to what you need to make happen externally. But that’s me. You know, that’s just my…

**John:** Cool. And I think we’re at the point for some One Cool Things.

**Craig:** Ooh, I’m so excited.

**John:** Mine is really simple. So, it’s a podcast. Craig doesn’t listen to any podcasts other than our own podcast.

**Craig:** What’s a podcast?

**John:** But I listen to some other ones, and one of them that I like a lot is called Planet Money. It’s an NPR podcast. And they talk about financial issues, economic issues. It’s a good, chatty, really well produced podcast about those topics.

The reason why I bring it up this week is they’re doing a whole series of podcasts about they’re making the Planet Money t-shirts and they’re sort of going all the way back to like the growing of the cotton and sort of how the whole thing works, and how the whole supply chain comes together, which I find fascinating and in our very connected world, how this all works.

So, that series is just starting, but they’ve had little blips of episodes where they talk about even the process of like getting the money from, they Kickstarted it. So, like transferring the money from the Kickstarter PayPal to their own bank account took like four days. And why did it take so long? So, there’s a special episode where they just talk about the clearinghouse for checks and how that all works.

And it’s this incredibly bizarre, antiquated system that we have in the US that needs to be overhauled, and yet it would be very difficult to overhaul. So, I endorse the Planet Money podcast. That particular episode and especially the upcoming series on t-shirts.

**Craig:** And this is called a podcast?

**John:** It’s called a podcast. People listen to it on their mobile devices sometimes.

**Craig:** Hmm.

**John:** It’s actually the thing you’re doing right now, but you kind of just think we’re having a conversation.

**Craig:** I’m sorry. People are listening to this?

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** Oh wow. Oh god.

**John:** There’s actually not an audience in front of Craig. He thinks it’s just a conversation between us.

**Craig:** I am mortified. [laughs] I have said things…

**John:** I’ve been recording this whole thing, Craig.

**Craig:** You’re supposed to tell me that. That’s against the law. And I am mortified. Some of the things I’ve said. Oh my god!

**John:** I know. Terrible, terrible shocking things.

**Craig:** Terrible, terrible shocking things. Well, my One Cool Thing this week is by far my one favorite, my most favorite Cool Thing of all the Cool Things I’ve done, which I think is 12 at this point.

And, John, do you know what my One Cool Thing is this week?

**John:** I don’t.

**Craig:** It’s you.

**John:** Come on. That’s too…

**Craig:** No, no. No, no, no, you’ve got to her me out.

**John:** Rawson Thurber already used, oh, he used both of us I guess.

**Craig:** Yeah, I know, and it’s totally different anyway. Listen, here’s the thing. So, I don’t know what people know of our story, but you and I have really gotten to know each other over the course of the podcast. We knew each other before the podcast, but we just sort of knew each other. It wasn’t like we hung out or anything. We just kind of knew each other.

And so we’re in Austin and I don’t know what it was, whether it was alcohol, or just whatever is going on in your life, but it was the best John August ever. It was such a great John August time. And at one point, and hopefully you remember, you came up to me, you saw me, you came up to me, and you hugged me.

**John:** I came up and hugged you from behind on the little Driskill balcony downstairs because I was saying good night to everybody and I felt like I need to hug…

**Craig:** Oh, sure, walk it back. Walk it back all you want.

**John:** I’m not walking it back at all.

**Craig:** Listen…

**John:** I would say that I was the bounciest, Tiggeriest form of myself at Austin.

**Craig:** Yes. You were great. It was so much fun hanging out with you. I had such a great time. And because we spend actually a lot of time together but not together, it’s such a strange friendship that we have because it’s a podcast friendship, but we were really — I mean, look, you may still hate me, but you were such a great friend over the course of that weekend. So, my One Cool Thing is John…

**John:** Aw…

**Craig:** No, my One Cool Thing is Austin John August. [laughs]

**John:** Thank you. Why can’t John be like Austin John all the time?

**Craig:** Well, that’s exactly right. And, you know, we were talking about doing our next, one of our next podcasts with Aline Brosh McKenna, the Joan Rivers of Scriptnotes, and she had this great suggestion that we should just drink through the whole thing. I really think we should. I think it’s going to be fun.

**John:** I suspect that may end up happening.

**Craig:** Yeah!

**John:** Yes. But first we’re going to have to go through our standard boilerplate. If you have a question for me or for Craig that is short, the best way to get to us is on Twitter. I’m @johnaugust. He is @clmazin.

If you have a longer question, like some of the ones we read today, ask@johnaugust.com is the best place to send those questions.

If you would like a t-shirt, they’re going to be at store.johnaugust.com, right now, hopefully, up and running. They’re black and they’re cool. So, we take preorders for two weeks, and then we make all the t-shirts, and we send them out. So, that way we don’t have to keep making t-shirts all the time. It’s just a one-time thing.

If you are listening to this podcast, this is a podcast we’re making, they are available on iTunes.

**Craig:** A what?! [laughs]

**John:** iTunes is this magical portal through which you can subscribe to things. So, subscribe to us in iTunes and while you’re there you can give us a comment. That actually weirdly affects sort of how we rank in the whole ratings of the iTunes universe. And that’s kind of useful because that way more people can find us. So, if you’d like to do that, we welcome those.

And we should actually probably read some of those aloud on the air, because those are kind of fun.

**Craig:** Oh, it’s embarrassing to me. Do you know I want to, down the line, could we do an Austin John August t-shirt. Because that is a great professional wrestling name, by the way. Austin John August!

**John:** That would be good.

**Craig:** This really feels good to me. I’m really digging this right now.

**John:** It’s very nice. One of the other sort of memes of the Austin Film Festival is that everyone with a shaved head sort of looks like me, or I look like everyone with a shaved head. So, there were a lot of false spotting of John August. Like John Hamburg sort of looks like me. And there was one guy who on Twitter kept saying, “I thought I saw John August, but it was actually a random person.” Then like right as I was getting in the van to go back to the airport, he spotted me and I shook his hand. So, it was nice that we finally connected.

**Craig:** I look like no one.

**John:** You look like Craig Mazin. That’s just what you should look like.

**Craig:** No, I’m visual noise.

**John:** You’re a special snowflake.

**Craig:** I’m just visual noise. [laughs]

**John:** [laughs] All right, thank you so much, Craig, and we’ll talk next week.

**Craig:** You got it.

**John:** All right, bye.

Links:

* The [John August Store](http://store.johnaugust.com/) is open for business!
* [Get your Big Fish tickets now](http://www.bigfishthemusical.com/), and use discount code SCRIPT (for November 23rd or otherwise)
* John’s post on [how we record Scriptnotes](http://johnaugust.com/2013/how-we-record-scriptnotes)
* T-Bone Burnett [in the Hollywood Reporter](http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/earshot/t-bone-burnett-silicon-valley-652114)
* [Anita Sarkeesian](http://www.feministfrequency.com/) and her Tropes vs Women in Video Games project
* Complex’s [The 15 Hottest Damsels In Distress In Movies](http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2012/07/the-15-hottest-damsels-in-distress-in-movies)
* TV Tropes on [damsels in distress](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DamselInDistress?from=Main.DistressedDamsel)
* MacGuffins on [TV Tropes](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacGuffin) and [Screenwriting.io](http://screenwriting.io/what-is-a-mcguffin/)
* [Planet Money podcast](https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/npr-planet-money-podcast/id290783428?mt=2)
* Planet Money on the [American check system](http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/10/04/229224964/episode-489-the-invisible-plumbing-of-our-economy)
* Craig’s [One Cool Thing](http://johnaugust.com/onecoolthings) is [John August](http://johnaugust.com/)
* [Outro](http://johnaugust.com/2013/scriptnotes-the-outros) by Scriptnotes listener Matthew Chielli

Scriptnotes, Ep 115: Scriptnotes: Back to Austin with Rian Johnson and Kelly Marcel — Transcript

October 31, 2013 Scriptnotes Transcript

The original post for this episode can be found [here](http://johnaugust.com/2013/scriptnotes-back-to-austin-with-rian-johnson-and-kelly-marcel).

**Disclaimer:** The following podcast contains explicit language. There’s also a Q&A at the end where there wasn’t a microphone in the audience, so we’ve cut out all the questions. So, at the end of the episode if it seems like it’s kind of choppy and we’re jumping forward, that’s because we don’t want you to hear a bunch of silence. Enjoy!

**John August:** Hello and welcome. My name is John August.

**Craig Mazin:** My name is Craig Mazin.

**John:** And this is Scriptnotes Live at the Austin Film Festival.

[Audience applauds]

**Craig:** They did that very well.

**John:** They did it incredibly well. This is clearly our smartest audience by far.

**Craig:** Yeah. It’s the first good audience we’ve ever had.

**John:** It really is. You put them all to shame. So, we did our first live podcast here at the Austin Film Festival last year. And our guests were Aline Brosh McKenna and Franklin Leonard and they were terrific. So, we knew we couldn’t top that, but we knew we wanted to do something else that’s new and great.

**Craig:** Emulate it.

**John:** Well, yeah, we’re like Apple and we have to have a new thing every time, and so this is our new sort of keynote address is the Austin Film Festival.

**Craig:** I think we can top it, actually. I think we have topped it. And I think we’re going to top it.

**John:** I think it’s going to be a pretty good show today.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** We have a little bit of housekeeping. And housekeeping is a thing that happens on every podcast essentially where you have to talk about the things that are going on in the world. My housekeeping is really simple.

I wrote this musical called Big Fish that’s running on Broadway right now. It’s going really well and people seem to like it and that’s great. But one of the producers is Jimmy Buffett. And Jimmy Buffett is wonderful. I’ve spent a lot of time in rooms with Jimmy Buffett over the last six months. And he’s like, “John, it’s great to see you!” He’s really excited about the show and it’s terrific. He’s from Alabama.

He asked the producers, “Hey, can I get a discount code for all the Parrotheads to come see the show?” And they said sure. And I’m like, oh, okay.

But I had a discount code if you recall during previews and that was great. And I had a bunch of people come. And that was fantastic. So, I said like, “Can I get a discount code, too, that’s as good as Jimmy’s?” And they said, “…Okay, fine.”

And so the discount code is SCRIPT. So, if you’re going to go see Big Fish in New York, on Broadway, up till about the holidays you can use the SCRIPT code either at Ticketmaster or literally at the box office. And tickets are like $85 rather than $140.

**Craig:** Why don’t they just become Parrotheads?

**John:** Because then they’d be Parrotheads. I really think there is — I want to separate the audience between Jimmy Buffett people and Scriptnotes —

**Craig:** I really don’t. I want that shit to be mingled up. I want to see your people…

**John:** Yeah, you want the mixture.

**Craig:** …and people who love Cheeseburger in Paradise. I want to see them all.

— Are we cursing in this podcast, by the way?

**John:** Apparently we are now.

**Craig:** All right.

**John:** No, sit over there. Sit over there. Sit over there. No, you’re not up here yet.

**Craig:** Worst guest ever.

**John:** Worst guest ever. Sit on the side.

**Craig:** Do you know how hard it is to be both late and early at the same time?

**John:** Rian Johnson pulled off the impossible trick.

**Craig:** Unreal.

**John:** Today we — well, we needed some great guests if we were going to do a live show here in Austin.

**Craig:** So, we got one great guest. And then we got one…

**John:** Well, Craig, this is actually conversation — pull out your phone because I sent you half of this. Craig is completely unprepared for what we’re doing.

**Craig:** As per usual.

**John:** As per usual. So, we had to figure out who would be our guest at the Austin Film Festival.

**Craig:** I don’t have internet here.

**John:** Okay, so we’ll share a phone.

**Craig:** Aw, nice.

**John:** Nice.

This is September 7, 2013. This email thread began at 9:50am. It started with Erin Hallagan. Is Erin here? Erin Hallagan?

**Craig:** She runs the whole thing, by the way.

**John:** She runs the whole thing, the Austin Film Festival. She emailed me to ask, “Do you want to bring a guest on your podcast at the conference?”

I said, “Yes. We’d love Rian Johnson.”

Erin writes back, “Great. I’ll see what I can do. He’s already got a busy schedule. He is directing the Vince Gilligan script reading and we have yet to solidify the rehearsal schedule. Just in case, do you have any backups?”

I write back, adding in Craig, so he’s CC’d. “Craig, anyone you’d especially like for a guest at the AFF Scriptnotes? I asked about Rian. Who else?”

**Craig:** And I said, “I’ll make Rian do it. Screw him. He’s doing it.”

New email to Rian. “Rian, you’re going to be our guest for our live Scriptnotes podcast in Austin and that’s that. Agreed? Agreed.”

**John:** Rian Johnson at noon. “What day? I demand information and satisfaction?”

Craig emails back…

**Craig:** “Erin, please inform this man. Oh, and to be clear, I don’t give sideways shit about your rehearsal schedule, Johnson. This is one hour. You can do it. Drinks on me, and cigars, and drinks, but in the evening. This will be in the day. You’ll do it.”

**John:** So Erin Hallagan writes back. “Okay, now I’m worried about the three of you being in a room together.”

Rian, “You heard the man, you’re confirmed. You’ll have the biggest room on the biggest day for the biggest event, right?”

**Craig:** Nice.

**John:** Now, notice, “Saturday, October 26, 3:45 to 5pm.” Mmm. “Stephen F. Austin Ballroom.” So, two of those things are correct. So, it’s not 3:45pm.

**Craig:** Yeah, why is that?

**John:** I don’t know. They scheduled us against other big things, yet, we filled the room.

**Craig:** I don’t know. It looks pretty good. We should probably give them some sort of podcast value now for their time sitting here.

**John:** Yes. So, let us welcome this guest who we badgered into being on our show. The director of Brick, The Brothers Bloom, and, oh yeah, Looper. Rian Johnson, come up.

So, Rian Johnson, welcome. And thank you. And I said the director of, but it’s really the writer-director of these films. And I think of you as a writer-director, but in a weird way I think of you as a director-writer. You’re one of the few people who I associate as like a director who writes, rather than a writer who directs. Do you distinguish those two skills at all?

**Rian Johnson:** I don’t know. I mean, they are obviously really different, different things, but I mean, I grew up just kind of — my directing training, if you want to even call it that, was just making movies as a kid. And when you’re getting together with your friends on the weekends to make a movie, there’s not a writing and then a preproduction and postproduction. There’s just making a movie.

And in a certain way that’s still the way that me and this group of friends that I have that make these movies together, still approaching this in a way. It’s all kind of one continuous process, well, I guess. [Rian rambles quickly in another language].

**Craig:** That last part was interesting.

**Rian:** That was for you.

**Craig:** Reminded me of that part in Looper that I did not understand.

**Rian:** Nice!

**Craig:** I have a question for you. It seems to me that you must divorce yourself from a screenplay to some extent when you’re directing a movie. Hard to divorce yourself from yourself. But, where do you feel that happening, or is it that as you write you are essentially kind of marrying what you know you’re going to be doing and so there’s not a lot of internal conflict when you finally get there?

**Rian:** Yeah, I think that’s absolutely true. I don’t know if you guys have found the same thing, but when you get into production, you really do have to let go of the preciousness that you had when you were writing and just approach what’s working and what’s not in front of you.

The same way I think when you get into post-production, start editing, you have to divorce yourself from the man on set who forced everyone to stay up three extra hours to get that scene that you thought you needed, that was so important. And when you’re in the editing room you just hit one button and it’s gone because that’s what’s best for the movie.

So, yeah, I think there definitely are these firewalls, but I think because it’s such a lengthy process in filmmaking, that’s maybe a really healthy thing, I guess.

**John:** While you’re writing a scene, do you have a good sense of visually what it’s going to look like when it’s going to be all done? Are you seeing the finished product? Talk us through that process for you.

**Rian:** I typically am. Not to say that what I’m thinking when I’m writing ends up being it, but usually when I’m writing I am playing the movie in my head and seeing the shots. And a lot of times I’ll write around a particular visual image. It’s actually kind of hard for me to write a scene unless I can see how it’s going to be shot in my head, whether or not that ends up being the way we do it or not. And maybe that ties back to, again, it all just being kind of one process of making a movie.

**John:** Can we talk about what you’re doing now? Because after Looper, obviously everyone in this audience wants to know what the next thing is and sort of how far we are away from the next Rian Johnson movie. What is the process now? What has this been for you, figuring out the next movie?

**Rian:** It’s just been slow and painful, probably like the process of everyone in this room, I hope, so we don’t feel so alone. It’s like, yeah, we’re all just kind of — I don’t know, I didn’t have a —

When I came out of the second movie I made, The Brothers Bloom, I had this idea for Looper that had been sitting in a drawer for ten years. So, I could pull that down and start working on. I didn’t have that coming out of Looper, so I kind of started at square one with this thing I’m writing now. And so, yeah, I’ve just taken way too long at this point. It’s been about a year of working on the script, and writing it.

**Craig:** And you have a particular pressure that other directors don’t have. You only really direct what you write, at least you have so far. I won’t say what the movie was, but there was a movie that you could have done that I really wanted you to do and you said no, which bummed me out. Because I am fascinated by Rian Johnson the screenwriter, and fascinated by Rian Johnson the director.

Would you ever consider directing somebody else’s screenplay?

**Rian:** Yeah, I hate writing so much, in a way I would love that.

**Craig:** Right.

**Rian:** Like it would be just doing the fun part. And I’ve read — the thing is, I’ve read screenplays that I haven’t written that are better than anything I’ll ever be able to read in my life, but it’s especially when reading those and confronted with that option that I just kind of realize, you know, for better or worse, what turns me on about the whole process. And what I’m in it for is that thing, going back to making movies as a kid. Just starting with an idea and then seeing it through all the way to the end. So, you know, for better or worse, that’s kind of, yeah.

**Craig:** Well, so far for better, I have to say. I mean, all the movies have been really good.

**Rian:** Eventually for worse. It’ll be worse at some point.

**Craig:** Yeah, obviously —

**Rian:** I’ll get a lot worse.

**Craig:** This may be the moment.

**Rian:** Yeah.

**Craig:** Yeah. Well, you just talked about how you don’t know what you’re doing next.

**Rian:** I have no idea.

**Craig:** This might be — you peeked.

**John:** So, Rian, you talk about collaborators. Who are the people who you trust to read that first draft, who you show, “This is what I think I’m doing next?’

**Rian:** Well, it’s just close friends, basically. So, besides my producer, who’s also my close friend, Ram Bergman. I have my friends Dan and Stacy Chariton are a team writing, a screenwriting married couple, and they’re a screenwriting team. And I’ve known them since college. And we know each other so well that we can just be completely honest. And so bounce stuff back and forth.

And, yeah, and other friends. I think the closer relationship you have with someone, the better. Because taking notes is such a weird, complicate thing. And deciding to, both being brittle with yourself in terms of taking in honesty, but also keeping in your head that everybody has their own unique perspective and what they’re saying is not necessarily — you’re so desperate for another voice when you’ve had your head down in the cave for so long. It’s easy to go the other way and think that everything everyone says to you is the truth, is the sun shining on you for the first time.

**Craig:** You’ve happily experienced a lot of praise for the work you’ve done. When you are praised, A, do you agree with it, and B, how does it make you feel?

**John:** Craig basically wants to know —

**Rian:** Everything you said was so positive. Why do I feel so uncomfortable right now?

**John:** Craig basically wants to know what’s it like to get a good review.

**Rian:** [laughs]

**Craig:** What’s it like for somebody to look at you and smile?

**Rian:** [laughs]

**Craig:** Is that nice?

**John:** What is human kindness like?

**Craig:** How do your species handle this strange thing?

**Rian:** So, no, I’m trying to —

**Craig:** What I’m trying to get to is your self-loathing.

**Rian:** Yeah, let me dig half an inch and get to that for you.

**Craig:** Yeah, thank you.

**Rian:** Give me one second. No, the thing is though, and we’ve all — you guys have good reviews and bad reviews. You get them both. And the truth is that —

**Craig:** Uh-uh. No.

**Rian:** [laughs] You know, at the end of the day, I don’t know, the old, the cliché is true that you can read 99 good reviews, and if there was one bad one, that will be the one that you believe. And I think that’s just an inherent thing.

At the same time, I don’t know, I remember reading an interview with the Coen brothers where they asked them if they read their own reviews, and this was, I think, around The Man Who Wasn’t There, like around that time. And they said no. They said at a certain point you feel like you’ve read everything that can be written about your stuff and you’re not surprised by anything and so you just don’t have the urge to.

And I think that’s maybe the nirvana that we can all hope to get to someday. That genuine point where —

**Craig:** You just don’t care.

**Rian:** Yeah. Where you actually don’t care. Because it’s impossible not to read. You know, you’ve worked so long putting this thing out there and no matter what skill you put out there, and no matter what scale you’re reading it on, whether it’s the comments on your Vimeo account, or a review in the New York Times, it’s impossible not to read it and get torn up about it.

And, I don’t know, I don’t know that the notion of taking criticism and that making you a better filmmaker, I don’t know, it’s a very complicated thing.

**Craig:** I just wonder sometimes does praise start to frighten you to an extent because you got such a good response from Looper, for instance. I mean, Brick also. I mean, all the movies. But Looper really connected with people. And I wonder does that factor in when you sit down to write the next thing? Are you feeling like the guy who just hit a home run and now you feel like you have to do it again?

**Rian:** Well, no, but the thing is like The Brothers Bloom got very mixed reviews. So, when I sat down to write Looper I was terrified because of that, and pressured like, geez, I might just have one more chance at bat. I need to really make this one work. And so I think no matter what the reaction to what you did next, you can choose to carry that with you in an unhealthy way into the next process, or you can choose to do your best to kind of block it out.

**Craig:** Well, I choose unhealthy. What about you?

**John:** Oh, yeah, I’ve chosen to not read reviews at all.

**Rian:** Do you really?

**John:** Yeah.

**Rian:** Do you actually? That’s fantastic.

**John:** Starting with Frankenweenie, I haven’t read any reviews. And so sometimes you just sort of flip past them and you get a sense for what that is, but I didn’t read them. Because I knew Frankenweenie got mostly good reviews, but I knew exactly what you said. I would fixate on the one bad review.

And with Big Fish, even though we were opening in Chicago and doing all that trial stuff, so there was stuff to change and to fix. It was still a fluid thing. I didn’t want to fixate on that one reviewer’s criticism of that one song or that one moment because I would give way too much value to that.

And so constructive criticism and sort of notes that can actually improve things are great, but having it in print in a publication was not helpful to me.

**Rian:** Now, you’re really active on the internet though. Is that really, or when it’s just one click away, or in your Twitter feed —

**John:** Yeah. You always know it’s just there. And so there’s the threads you don’t open and the pages you don’t go to because you know it’s there and it’s waiting. And it’s tough because you’ll get a Google News Alert with your name in it and so you’ll see like, is that —

**Rian:** It’s evil. You can’t do that. No. Do you have a Google? I can’t. No.

**John:** I do that. It’s dangerous.

**Rian:** So how do you not do that thing, because that’s literally showing up — ?

**Craig:** I mean, that’s everything. That’s a steady stream. I mean, I don’t do it. Somebody sent me a link because I said something about my former college roommate, your Senator, Ted Cruz.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** And it was not, yeah, it was a bad thing. And someone sent me an email like, “Ha-ha, look at this.” And they sent me just the link to the article, an essay someone had written on a website. And the title was Craig Mazin is the Worst Person in American History.

Not the worst person say in English history. We’ll be meeting her shortly. But I felt really good that I was the worst person. That’s Google for you. How do you — ?

**John:** So, I got off the plane from — we had our opening night in Chicago, sorry, opening night in New York, so the real opening. Like it’s all done. It’s locked. It’s final.

And so I did not read any of the reviews, but they were going to come out that night. And so the flight lands on Monday morning in Los Angeles and I turn on my phone and the very first email is from a good friend who said like, “Fuck that guy at the New York Times. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about.”

So, I’m like, Oh no! Oh, no, that’s just not good at all. And so I went through this —

**Craig:** That’s the stupidest. Who sent that to you?

**John:** I’ll tell you after the event. It was such a well meaning thing, but like I had no exposure. And so because I had put myself in this bubble, this bubble of ignorance, I assumed that everything was bad. And so I just went into this really dark depressing place until finally my husband, who is very smart, said like, “Okay, I’ve read all the reviews. And let me tell you what they are.” And he broke them down for me in a way that was incredibly helpful and constructive.

**Craig:** My wife wouldn’t have done that. She would have been like, “Yeah, a lot of them are really…”

**John:** [laughs] They’re bad.

**Craig:** “There were some good ones, but those don’t count.”

**John:** No. They don’t count at all.

So, I would just say like my plan for ignorance did not completely succeed, too. So, there’s no perfect way to get through that.

**Craig:** Rian, one last question for you for all the folks here. You are a great inspiration, I would imagine, to a lot of people who are starting out. They don’t live in Los Angeles. They don’t have a bunch of money to make a movie. They aren’t going to be getting their script to some big movie star. But you didn’t have a lot of money and you weren’t in LA. Well, in Brick I guess you were at that at USC or something.

**Rian:** Yeah.

**Craig:** But you made Brick, and you really did make it. You made it. And I’m just curious for all the people here what advice you have for them in terms of believing in themselves as self-starters and self-finishers.

**John:** Yeah. I mean, the one, and I remember when there were many. Like I wrote Brick when I was 23 and we didn’t make it until I was 30. And I was trying to make it for all those years and failing. So, I basically spent my twenties over and over getting and losing money to make this little movie.

And I remember asking people who had made indie movies, like how do you do it? And I would always be so frustrated by what I thought was the bullshit answer of, you know, “You got to just stick with it. You’ve just got to be persistent.”

And now having made one and also knowing a lot of people who have made them, I mean, the truth is it’s that thing where the road rolls up behind every different person who does it. There is really no trick. And I find myself giving that same answer, which I now know isn’t bullshit. The only universal advice that is absolutely true is just persistence. I really think if you have a story you love, if you’ve worked on it, and honed it, and it’s good, and you stick with it, it’s going to get made and it’s going to get in front of people.

The one practical thing I will say, after years and years of trying and failing to get the movie made, I met my producer, Ram Bergman. And the one huge thing he kind of set me right on is he said, “You’re going about this completely wrong. You have talked to some line producer that you know and they have given you a budget. They’ve given you a number which you now say, ‘I need this number to make my movie.’ And you go out to look for that amount.”

And he says, “Chances are you will never get your movie made doing that. What you need to do is look at what you can get your hands on right now in terms of money and resources and then back into that number and figure out how to make the movie for that and go and make it now.”

And he was absolutely right. And once we switched to that, that’s how — that’s when we made the film.

**Craig:** That’s a great answer. Terrific.

**John:** That’s a great answer. Let us bring up our second guest who is really Craig’s guest.

**Craig:** Yes.

**John:** And so Craig basically would not stop talking about this person who needed to be on our show.

**Craig:** Kelly Marcel is a fantastic screenwriter. She has a movie coming out this Christmas directed by our collective good friend, John Lee Hancock, called Saving Mr. Banks. I don’t know if you guys have seen the trailer for it. Well, apparently Rian has.

No need for false applause. I promise you real applause is forthcoming when you see the film. It’s excellent. It’s going to make you cry. And it’s a great Hollywood story. I don’t know if you guys love Mary Poppins the way I love Mary Poppins, but it’s the story of Pam Travers who wrote the Mary Poppins books, coming to Los Angeles to basically battle — a battle of wills between her and Walt Disney. And Tom Hanks plays Walt Disney and Emma Thompson plays Pam Travers. It’s an amazing cast.

And it’s a wonderful movie. And she’s also writing a very smaller film called Fifty Shades of Grey.

**John:** It’s about moral ambiguity and I think of the Cold War?

**Craig:** I think it’s honestly about colors. I think it’s about grey. So, it’s a paint-based, smaller.

**John:** Oh, it’s that famous color blind painter. That’s what it was.

**Craig:** It’s about Escher. And, anyway, she is a wonderful lady with the best accent ever. Ladies and gentlemen, Kelly Marcel.

**John:** Kelly Marcel! Hi Kelly.

**Kelly Marcel:** Hey!

**John:** Hey!

**Kelly:** Hey!

**John:** Hi! So, we were going to do this whole thing where you had like a Southern California accent and that we pretended that you were not British, but you’re actually British, aren’t you?

**Kelly:** Yes, I am. And my audition wasn’t very good this morning.

**Craig:** Well, you got a couple of sentences down that were okay, and then they fell —

**Kelly:** Just fell apart.

**Craig:** Yeah. You’re American is not as good as my British. [laughs]

**Kelly:** It’s true. He’s great.

**John:** I have not seen Saving Mr. Banks, but you guys have? Both of you?

**Craig:** Yes, we’ve both seen it. Yes.

**John:** So, can you give me the backstory on how this movie came into your life and what the genesis of this is for you?

**Kelly:** Yeah. There was a British producer called Alison Owen who came to me in England and I had just left a TV show that I created called Terra Nova because they wanted to put dinosaurs in it and I didn’t want them to. [laughs] And so she was like, “Oh, you wrote the dinosaur show. You should write this thing about Mary Poppins.”

I was like, all right.

No, she told me the story of Pam Travers which I didn’t know and it’s a really, really fascinating story. And there was this originating script by this Australian writer called Sue Smith who had sort of done a birth to death biopic of P.L.’s whole life, which is completely fascinating but enormous.

And in the middle of it was this little story where she goes to LA and Alison had felt that was the film and asked if I could kind of reimagine it. And I thought it was great. I thought it would never get made because it had to be full of Poppins songs and we were going to put Walt Disney in it and I just thought we’d get a cease and desist order from Disney, but decided to write it anyway because I thought it would be a really lovely sample and honestly just couldn’t leave it alone.

**John:** Great. So, at this point you’re working with just this producer, so Disney is not involved?

**Kelly:** No.

**John:** And is she paying you to do this, or is this a spec essentially for you to be writing?

**Kelly:** There’s no money in British film. So, yeah, essentially it was a spec.

**John:** So, after you have the script, what is the next step for this entering into the world of a makeable movie? What happened?

**Kelly:** Do you know, it was really quick. I only wrote this script just under three years ago, so it’s a amazing that it’s coming out now. And basically what happened was the Black List. And so the script kind of went out, a lot of producers were reading it, people really loved it. It ended up on the Black List and Disney were like, “What’s this film that has our founder in it and all the Mary Poppins songs? We need to shut this down.”

And then they got hold of it and thankfully were really smart and lovely and decided to make it with our lovely John Lee instead.

**Craig:** The lovely John Lee.

**Kelly:** Yeah, it was really the Black List.

**Craig:** I’m sort of fascinated by your career arc for obvious reasons. I mean, you did start on —

**Kelly:** It’s just the sex thing, isn’t it? It’s the Fifty Shades of Grey. That’s why you’re fascinated.

**Craig:** Yeah, we’re working up to that. So, you start with science fiction.

**Kelly:** Yeah.

**Craig:** Alternate world science fiction, not including dinosaurs.

**Kelly:** Yeah.

**Craig:** Then you have a biopic, a period piece biopic that’s sort of a Hollywood story, but really a story of family tragedy, and past and redemption. And then the movie about paint. So, my question is not, “Oh, isn’t that interesting.” I mean, it is interesting. My question really is do you have a genre or do you care about genre? Or do you feel attracted — something about particular stories that could go in any genre?

**Kelly:** Yeah. I just, well, I very specifically didn’t want to get pigeonholed. So, after Terra Nova I was just being offered sci-fi jobs, like loads and loads of sci-fi jobs. And I kind of realized with Terra Nova, because it’s rubbish, that that’s not my genre.

**John:** Yeah.

**Kelly:** And so I didn’t want to make that mistake again. But, no, really it’s about — it’s just about stories that I want to tell and that I think are fascinating. And I kind of want to write everything, if it’s got an interesting core.

**Craig:** Define interesting core. I mean, I know what I always think about when I think about that thing. But what is that when you think about that interesting core?

**Kelly:** Well, so for me with Saving Mr. Banks, the thing that fascinated me mainly about it was our relationships with our parents and the kind of adults that we turn into because of them. And then with Fifty Shades of Grey I was really fascinated with the character of Christian Grey and the fact that he’s an abused child and that uses… — And is, again, a tale of redemption, in which he fails. But that he uses his physicality to try to redeem himself.

And I actually think that’s a really, really interesting thing.

**Craig:** Yeah, you know, I love that. I was talking earlier at an earlier thing about the idea of theme and how it just seems to me it makes it easier to write these things. That it suddenly isn’t so much about plot. I mean, Looper is a great example, too, of a movie that at first blush is just — it’s all plot. You’re struggling to follow your plot. You know, not in a bad way. In a good way. It’s a real great puzzle. But in the end we care because of that theme, that emotional core. I think that’s great.

And it’s funny that you say, because it’s so obvious in Saving Mr. Banks. A very emotional movie. But Fifty Shades of Grey, I wouldn’t have expected that it’s actually about childhood issues.

**Kelly:** Yeah.

**Craig:** And childhood. Well, good, now I’ll see it.

**Kelly:** Good.

**John:** But I want to get to this topic of theme, because this is another thing that came up on another panel that I was on. That sense of, Rian’s movies certainly, and I think the movies that I’m proudest of that I’ve worked on, there’s this kind of fractal quality to it. They’re thematically whole enough that you could take any one scene from them and cut it out and like put it in nice fertile soil and it would grow into a shape of that movie.

Like genetically it’s all part of one consistent thing. And that’s a thing I definitely find in your films is that they’re all of one piece and there’s a central idea, a central thematic idea that is whole. And I find it very hard to start writing until I kind of know what that is. If I don’t have some touchstone to go back to, like this is what the movie feels like, this is what the movie is, it’s very hard to do that.

And, yet, certainly the three of us, and you to a degree, you really don’t write for other people very often. You don’t go onto other movies. But the three of us will end up in situations where a movie is in production or is getting close to production and you have to come in and write as somebody else and help.

**Craig:** And help.

**John:** And that’s a challenging thing, too. So, we talked about this a bit at breakfast, but what is it like for you to come into a project that you did not originate but you needed to help out. What is that decision process for you?

**Kelly:** I don’t do it often. I really don’t do it often. And most of the time I’ll do it because it’s a friend of mine or something, so the two movies, I helped out on Bronson and I helped out on Mad Max because Tom Hardy is a friend of mine and I know how to work with him. And, also, who doesn’t want to work George Miller? I mean, that’s just amazing.

And I will really only go and fix something if I really, really know that I know how to do that. So, I do it very rarely. I’ve done one this year. I do like one a year, that I’ll go in and help. And normally it’s because it’s a friend and I know how to do it. But most of the time I say no.

**John:** Craig, what do you like when you go into a project that needs your help? What’s the conversation in your head?

**Craig:** I never think about — if I do that it’s not about helping the project. It’s about helping a human being. It’s very, very hard to make a movie. And I am so empathetic to a director, a writer, an actor, anyone who is adrift and confused and scared because they’re not on firm ground.

More than anything, I just want to help them. I want to help them, mostly the director. I feel like the director is the person — If you can help the director, you will help everyone else. They’re the ones that have to do that day’s work. And so I try and help them. And it’s impossible to come in and mimic other people’s voices. You can only write what you can write. But if you listen to what they need and help a person, generally speaking you’re okay.

**John:** Well, and I think that listening is the most crucial thing. Usually when a movie is in crisis, it’s often not really about the script. It’s about the personalities of the people involved. And you were brought in because you are a voice of reason who can get people to actually do the things they need to do to show up, to get out of their trailer, to get on the plane, to take that next step, and to sort of talk through things and figure out how we can make this movie together and what this movie ultimately is.

**Craig:** Sometimes I would go and just hold Rian. And that’s all he needed.

**Rian:** Like Temple Grandin, you are my cow squeezer. It’s true.

**Kelly:** [laughs]

**John:** One of the things I’ve found is that often I will enter into these situations where there are a lot of strong personalities with strong opinions. And I find myself in this game of listening to their strong opinions and their ideas, which are kind of genuinely crazy, and have to maintain eye contact and nod and answer, “Well, that’s one way you could go. That’s a way. That’s a way we could go.”

And I kind of thought that might be a fun thing for us to do right now is to talk through potential movies and doing this. And so this is not going to be scary for either one of you.

**Kelly:** Rian, he’s going to make us improvise.

**Rian:** Yeah. This doesn’t sound scary at all. Does it? Does it Kelly?

**Kelly:** Should we leave?

**Rian:** Yes!

**John:** So, what I’d like each of you guys to do, you can participate as much as you want, is think of a movie that you would like Craig and I to be coming in to help out on. You guys think of a movie. And then we have an audience member named Megan. Megan, can you come up here? Everyone, let’s give applause for Megan. Thank you very much.

What Megan has done is in these two envelopes —

**Craig:** You can’t stop him.

**John:** You can’t stop me.

**Rian:** I was told there would be no math.

**Craig:** [laughs]

**John:** In these two envelopes are some ideas that a producer, a director, a star, a big movie star, Will Smith, might have had about the movie that Craig and I have been assigned to work on, to rewrite, to help out on.

**Craig:** As a team?

**John:** We can be a team or we can be apart? Do you want to be a team?

**Craig:** Are we competing for a job?

**John:** Yes. We’re competing for a job.

**Craig:** Oh, okay. Now I’m into it.

**John:** Rian, you’re more scared, so do you want envelope one or two?

**Rian:** I’ll take two.

**John:** Okay. Give him envelope two. Kelly, what movie should I be going into to work on? Any movie at all. It can be a remake of something. What movie do you want to do?

**Rian:** Okay. I want you to do a reboot of Goonies.

**John:** Actually, I don’t know Goonies well enough, so give me —

**Rian:** Oh, for god’s sake.

**Craig:** No, I totally know that. Can I do it?

**John:** Craig can do it.

**Rian:** Wow, right? Really?

**John:** Goonies are good enough for Craig.

**Craig:** I’ll take his job.

**Rian:** Okay. I want you to do, it’s a reboot of Goonies but it’s set on a colony on Mars.

**Craig:** Got it.

**John:** Now, I need you to open up that envelope and pick one of the things in there and say like, “Oh, and another thing is…” Add one of those elements.

**Rian:** [laughs]

**John:** [laughs]

**Rian:** Another thing is that in this future society all the grownups are clones of Jaden Smith. The actual Jaden Smith.

**Craig:** This is a great movie!

**Rian:** Yeah.

**Craig:** So, what am I supposed to do now?

**John:** Now run with that. Go with it. You got to wing it, Craig.

**Craig:** This is what I would actually do in this situation?

**John:** Yes. This is what you need to do in this situation.

**Craig:** Here’s what I would actually do. Okay, got it. You want to do a reboot of Goonies, which I think is fantastic. I love Goonies. And talk about a move that’s ripe for a reboot. You know, it’s sort of set in the eighties, but it’s universal. It’s children on a treasure hunt. That’s so exciting. With bad guys that are old fashioned bad guys, but they’re funny bad guys. And that dude, you know, that’s all great.

Here’s what I think we’ve got to really talk about. Mars. And Jaden Smith.

**Rian:** What about my son do you want to…?

**Craig:** Mr. Smith. Sir. My feeling is you get one great thing to build a movie around. It’s confusing to people if you try and build a movie around three great things. That’s three movies all smashed into one. Well, here are three great things. Goonies.

**Rian:** You are so good!

**Craig:** Mars. And Jaden. You don’t want to wear a hat, on a hat, on a hat. I say go Goonies. Maybe Mars. Hold back Jaden. Like a right hook for the sequel. Like a right hook for the sequel.

**Rian:** [laughs]

**Craig:** Did I get the job.

**Rian:** That’s my guy. I’m sold.

**Craig:** Yeah!

**John:** Awesome.

**Rian:** Let’s do this. I’m in.

**Kelly:** Yes!

**John:** Well done. Now, Kelly Marcel, do you have a movie that you would like me to talk about rebooting, remaking, working on?

**Kelly:** I’d like you to go in and fix and Waterworld.

**John:** Oh, absolutely. Done. I’m set.

**Kelly:** Using Charlize Theron.

**John:** I can’t imagine how she got entered into the mix.

**Kelly:** And, I’m not joking.

**John:** Ah, yes. Yes.

**Kelly:** And you have to incorporate Verizon mobile phones.

**John:** Fantastic. So, some backstory. This actually happened on the second Charlie’s Angels. There were Cingular cell phones that we had to get Cingular cell phones somewhere into the movie.

So, Charlize Theron and Waterworld.

**Kelly:** And Verizon.

**John:** And Verizon. Well, here is what is so fantastic about Waterworld is that it’s a world covered with water.

**Kelly:** Ha!

**John:** And it’s one of those titles that it’s so self-explanatory. It’s a water world, so you already know what that’s like. And everyone loves the ocean and it’s nothing but ocean from top to bottom. All the way through the movie. And so that’s going to be fantastic.

**Kelly:** [laughs]

**John:** [laughs] You have this civilization that is so primal and yet there are echoes of a previous civilization. For example, you could find a Verizon cell phone someplace and not know what it was because that was a previous technology. But what if you got that cell phone to work. And that is the beacon that is leading you to a promise land. That cell phone, you’re triangulating from the cell phone to some dry land.

**Craig:** Yup.

**Kelly:** Yeah.

**John:** That is fantastic. Now, the villain of this piece kind of needs to be Charlize Theron. Because Charlize Theron as like the evil mermaid queen is kind of unstoppable. Because we know she’s strong, we know she’s sexual, but you know you don’t want to cross Charlize Theron.

**Kelly:** Yeah. You don’t.

**John:** You just don’t want to cross Charlize Theron. So, I think it’s an opportunity to go from the world, the surface, to really dig deeper into woeful terrain of Waterworld by adding Charlize Theron.

**Kelly:** This is the best Waterworld ever.

**John:** Thank you.

**Craig:** Wow.

**John:** So, Craig was terrified of this idea and begged me not to do it.

**Craig:** Well, it just seems to me that we’ve convinced them screenwriting is basically a bunch of bullshit.

**John:** No. I would say that the profession of screenwriting, the profession of being in those rooms and saying, yes, is often that though. Because you and I have both in situations where we had to say, “Uh-huh?” And then you leave the room and you’re like, What just happened?

**Craig:** Yeah. It is true that you’re never allowed to make this face in a meeting. So, you get really good at figuring out how to say no to things while it looks like you’re saying yes. “Absolutely.” And then you start to slide it here, or slide it there.

No, not that is absolutely true. There is a skill to that, but it’s far less important than actually being a good writer. I’ve never met Charlie Kaufman, but I’ve listened to him speak. I can’t imagine that he doesn’t go — but he’s so good that it doesn’t really matter.

**John:** Yeah. That panicked gasp face. For the people who are actually listening to the podcast and don’t see Craig’s face, if you can imagine sort of like a fish that got hit really hard. That’s the face Craig is making right now.

**Rian:** Just Google Image any promotional image of Craig and you’ll see it basically there.

**John:** That slack-jawed, What the hell is this? What the hell was that?

**Craig:** This dumb confusion.

**John:** Yes. But this kind of, bad ideas happen a lot. And sometimes your skill at getting the job or like making the train stay on the tracks is to listen through those bad ideas and eventually get people back onto a track that is useful and helpful and will somehow lead to a movie.

**Craig:** Yes. I suspect that many of these folks, oh, should we do questions or should we do One Cool Things?

**John:** Let’s do our One Cool Things and then do some questions.

**Craig:** Okay, do you guys have One Cool Thing?

**John:** We warned you of this.

**Craig:** Rian, you’re made of nothing but One Cool Things.

**Rian:** Wow.

**John:** Also for people who are listening to this on the podcast, they don’t realize that Rian Johnson looks nothing like your expectation of Rian Johnson because he had Lasik.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** And so when I saw you at the airport, like I associate you with glasses. I associate you as being the villain in something, like the German villain in some sort of spy movie. And now —

**Craig:** And now you look like the German villain in a serial killer movie.

**John:** Yeah. You’ve changed everything. Rian Johnson, do you have a One Cool Thing for us?

**Rian:** One Cool Thing that’s out there that I would point? Anything. You know, actually I did a time travel panel this morning and I was reminded of a terrific little time travel movie that I think not a ton of people have seen called Timecrimes. And it’s a fantastic little jewel of a time travel movie. So, that’s my One Cool Thing. Go look up a movie called Timecrimes.

And I’m not going to say a thing about it except you won’t be disappoint.

**Craig:** Very cool.

**John:** Great. Timecrimes. Kelly?

**Craig:** Kelly?

**Kelly:** You can’t be a writer unless you read a lot. And I often am looking for inspiration, but I don’t want to like sit down with a huge book. So, there’s this brilliant website called Letters of Note. You might know it. Lots of letters from historical people, beautifully written, so it’s really nice to just have a quick read sometimes in the middle of the day when you’re stuck and you need to distract your brain. So, go there. It’s great.

**John:** Very cool. My One Cool Thing is a knife. Craig always mocks me for my One Cool Things, but they’re actually things I found incredibly useful. When I was at USC for film school I got paired up with this roommate named Nick Sarantakes who is lovely. He was like a history grad student and we have not spoken since that whole time.

But the thing is he had a really good knife, like a utility knife for the kitchen. And I kind of stole it. I kind of just took it with me when we were done. And it’s been my knife for this whole time but it broke and I had to replace this knife. So, this is the knife I found which I highly recommend to people: the Victorinox 40003 Wavy Edge Utility Knife with 4-3/4? Blade.

**Craig:** Do you see what I deal with?

**John:** Kelly Marcel is so cool that she has that same knife.

**Kelly:** I have that knife.

**John:** So people think you need a big, fancy shelf knife.

**Craig:** No one thinks that!

**John:** You do. You also need a knife that’s just the right size for like digging through vegetables and doing stuff. It’s the best knife. And you feel like you could…

**Kelly:** Kill someone with it.

**John:** Defend yourself with it. Yeah. You really could kill someone easily.

**Craig:** Yeah, Martha Stewart, hmm.

**John:** Craig Mazin. Your One Cool Thing?

**Craig:** Well, my One Cool Thing is sort of an — I’m attempting to create a business out of two people that run their own business that aren’t in business together. But I just wish that they were in business together. So, I’m creating a Voltron of people that don’t know each other. And I think I’ve mentioned both of these individually in the past maybe in One Cool Things.

But Kent Tessman is here. I saw Kent somewhere. There he is. Kent is the author of Fade In which is a fantastic screenwriting program. I use it. I find it to be vastly superior to all the other offerings out there, and cheaper, except for the ones that are free which I don’t like. And so he has this great product. There are also the guys here that do Writer Duet, which they’ve actually — I don’t know if the Writer Duet guys are here, but they’ve really advanced that thing.

You know, there’s the CollaboWriter or the or the Script-o-share, whatever, that just does not work unless, I don’t know, you happen to have a dedicated IP at your house and you understand how to open UCP ports or nonsense like that.

So, this thing actually works. It allows two people in two locations using a browser. And I just thought, wow, what if they created one company together and just destroyed all the other companies. Because mostly I’m interested in destruction.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** So, anyway, you guys should totally talk about that, smashing your company together and then having a program that you could write and then automatically upload and share and collaborate with someone else via the internet in real time and then automatically save back down to your computer.

I mean, anybody can get a knife!

**John:** Ah-ha!

**Craig:** That is unique. So, that’s my One Cool Thing.

**John:** Hooray! Because we are going to forget to do this, standard boilerplate here. If you have questions for me or Craig in normal time, short ones are great on Twitter. I’m @johnaugust. He is…

**Craig:** @clmazin.

**John:** And we will try to answer those questions. But these people are also on the Twitter. What’s yours?

**Kelly:** @MissMarcel.

**John:** @MissMarcel.

**Rian:** @rianjohnson.

**John:** And if you have longer questions for me or Craig, ask@johnaugust.com is the place to go.

This podcast and all future podcasts are at johnaugust.com, but even better on iTunes, so you can subscribe. Click subscribe. That’s great. Leave us a comment there, that’s fantastic.

We also will be having new t-shirts which we will be announcing next week. So, you will see that there are new t-shirts and they are in a color that you would not expect and I think you will enjoy them.

But this is the point of the podcast that I love so much because it’s questions. And so what I think might be best for questions is if you raise your hand and we will call on you. If anyone has a question for — the radical choice that we’re making! If you have a question for any of us here —

**Craig:** And the usual, can I make my usual disclaimer about questions?

Your question must be a question. Your question must not contain you pitching your material. Your question must end in a reasonable amount of time.

**John:** Yeah, so a good way to think about it is maybe there are 60 seconds that are going to be involving your question and our answers, so the shorter your question, the longer your answer. And I see a hand back there. Sir.

(NOTE: The questions themselves were inaudible and cut from the podcast.)

**Craig:** Sure. What notes that we get stand out as ones that we probably ought to reject. Is there such a thing?

**Kelly:** All of them.

**Craig:** [laughs] Tough. Tough.

**John:** Tough.

**Kelly:** I’m joking. Do them.

**Craig:** Consistently insane.

**John:** In general you need to figure out who the most important person is and do the notes of the most important person if they’re not going to destroy the project and the person actually has the right vision for what it’s going to be. The challenge I’ve found is something you get conflicting notes from multiple sources. And if you can get them to sort of create one set of notes, then they will fight amongst each other and resolve those issues so that you don’t have to resolve those issues for them. You can address one set of notes rather than ten sets of notes.

**Craig:** I don’t have any particular criteria other than this: if I think the note is stupid, I’m not going to do it. If I think the note is insightful, and smart, and will help me, even if the note starts to put me down a path of potential improvement that isn’t even suggested by the note, then I will listen to it. It’s simply for me. I’m very selfish about it. Will that note help me make a better story. There’s no particular kind of note that I reject offhand.

Rian? You don’t get notes.

**Rian:** I don’t get notes!

**Craig:** Yes, Rian doesn’t know what a note is. A note is a comment.

**Rian:** Oh?

**Craig:** That’s given to us.

**John:** Another question from this audience. You sir in the front.

**Rian:** Yeah, I…

**Craig:** Can you explain it? Very briefly.

**Rian:** The movie Primer? So, Primer is a micro-budget time travel movie made by a friend of mine, Shane Carruth, who is a tremendous director, he made a movie recently called Upstream Color which was one of my favorite movies of the past year. It was tremendous.

Primer is — we were just talking about it this morning actually. I’m a huge fan of Primer. I think that it’s often characterized as being a movie that dives head first into just the pure intricacies of time travel. And it does do that, but it does that and carries that through to such a pure extent that by the end of it it’s just this tangled mass of complexities and it becomes this cloud of white noise almost in the third act that’s impossible to follow.

And to me, from just my own personal experience — I’m not speaking for Shane — but for me, that’s kind of the point of it. And it gets you to this place where all the complexities of time travel just become this beautiful hum. And all you’re left with is kind of the base emotional discord between these two friends that have launched them into this rivalry.

I think it’s a tremendous film. I absolutely love it.

**John:** Right here, sir.

[Then]

I often do outline if I have to give it to somebody else. If I have to be able to talk through the whole moving with somebody else in a detailed way, I will do that outline so I can have a way to discuss them. And I’ve done some television pilots. And in television you’re required to outline. And I’ve always fought it and then loved it when I was done because you actually — I knew what it was and when you actually started writing it was actually really simple to write. But when I’m writing for myself I don’t always outline. I won’t do character bios unless it’s important.

What I will sometimes do is have characters just start talking to each other in scenes that don’t have anything to do with the actual plot of the movie, just so I can hear what the character’s voices are.

Craig? You outline.

**Craig:** Yes. I do. Sometimes I outline for sort of the same reason you do, to make things go easier for me. There are multiple people involved and I frankly don’t want any of them to be able to say — well, they’ll say, “Yes, great.” And then you’ll do the script and they’ll say, “Well why was that there?” Because we all agreed on it and, remember, here it is in paper.

But for me really I like just note cards. I like real simple note cards to just help me organize my thoughts. I do like to know how the movie begins and ends. I like to know how the character changes in relationship to the theme over the course of the movie. I don’t write character bios. I start to feel like that becomes Dungeons & Dragons stuff. It’s a little goofy.

I don’t want, frankly, a whole bunch of stuff that I’m not intending to impart to the audience. If I’m intending to impart it to the audience, I don’t need to write the bio. I need to figure out how to impart it.

**John:** Kelly?

**Kelly:** We had this discussion this morning and to Craig’s horror I told him that I don’t outline.

**Craig:** Argh!

**Kelly:** But what that results is really, really over-long scripts that I then have to cut down. And I probably should outline. And I think that’s probably the right way to do it. So, I just start on page one and then my characters tell me who they are, but I do end up with a really messy, shitty first draft and then have to go back in. So a lot of my work is rewriting.

**John:** Rian?

**Rian:** I outline. I’d say 80% of the process for the first draft for me is outlining. And the outline just gets more and more defined and concentrated. And then the very last thing I do when I know the entire thing is I start typing, but then I end up with an over-long shitty first draft that I have to cut way down. So, it’s probably the wrong way to do it and you should probably not outline.

**Kelly:** [laughs]

**John:** Right there. Yes, you.

**Craig:** Ooh! Good question!

**John:** I’m going to restate the question for microphones. Did Disney ask you to do any changes to Saving Mr. Banks based on their involvement once they came on?

**Kelly:** Do you know what? We were incredibly lucky and I think it’s because there was an already an existing draft and it wasn’t something that we developed at the studio. It was pretty solid when they got it. So, it was very difficult to change. If you start pulling a thread, the whole thing is going to come apart.

I don’t think John Lee and I really ever felt the hand of Disney on our shoulder. They were pretty amazing. They opened up their archives to us. I mean, Walt Disney drinks and smokes in this movie and it’s a Disney film. So, personally I think they were incredibly brave and they were very, very true to the original script which Craig has read and seen the finish version. They’re pretty much the same.

**Craig:** Absolutely. John shot the script. And he did a great job. But it was your script, your structure. It’s a very particular kind of structure that’s there and the scenes are there. And that moment, that weird moment that made me cry is there.

**Kelly:** Yeah.

**Craig:** That apparently just made me cry. I told her, “You know what made me cry?” And I thought she would go, “Oh, yeah, yeah, a lot of people say that.” And nobody. Apparently I’m the only one. She’s like, “Why would you cry at that?”

**Kelly:** So just a big girl.

**Craig:** [mimicking Kelly’s accent] So weird. You’re a weird little girl. Yeah. Stupid.

**John:** Right here in the front row.

**Male Audience Member:** Kelly, did Disney request any changes to Fifty Shades of Grey?

**Kelly:** Ha-ha! They just said please, please don’t do this.

**Craig:** [laughs]

**John:** [laughs] Is Disney excited about the fact that you’re writing Fifty Shades of Grey?

**Kelly:** No!

**John:** It must be odd that you are doing this Saving Mr. Banks, which is a Disney film about Walt Disney, and the next thing that is on your bio sheet is this project.

**Kelly:** Is porn.

**John:** Is porn. Yeah.

**Kelly:** Right. They, you know what? They were pretty cool about it. They were very congratulatory when I signed onto it. But we premiered Banks in London on Sunday and it was a very difficult process going down that red carpet and constantly being asked about Fifty Shades because it’s huge, but we’re at this family-friendly Disney film and, you know, I can’t talk about it. So, we really tried to make sure that I never talk about Fifty Shades in the same sentence as Saving Mr. Banks, which I just did.

**John:** Well done!

**Craig:** And we got it!

**John:** Way in the back, so speak up load.

[Then]

A great question. With so many choices of what we could use to entertain ourselves, what jumps out at you that makes you say this is a thing I need to actually spend time on?

**Rian:** Well, I’ve actually been going through a thing lately where I’ve been, you know, with all the options on Netflix and iTunes and everything you can watch at home, I’ve really been pushing myself to just get out there and go to the theater more. Not so much for the experience of the big screen and the technical stuff, but because if I’m at home on the couch watching something, it requires a Herculean effort at this point to not be distracted by something. To not have a second screen, or a phone, or to have something.

And I find increasingly a movie theater is the only place where the movie, no matter what the pace of it, has my full attention the entire time. And more and more I place a premium on that.

**John:** Craig?

**Craig:** For me it’s been defined largely by my children, because I like to — you know, I have a debt to my kids the way that my parents introduced films to me. I’m now in the phase where my son is 12 and my daughter is eight, where I can introduce films to them. And I get to enjoy them again. I get to show them Raiders of the Lost Ark. And I get to show them Jaws. And I get to deal with their weird Jaws insanity afterwards. Everything is Jaws and sharks, and sharks, and sharks, and sharks.

You know, my daughter, who is eight, is like, “Daddy, for Halloween I want to be like the half of the body, daddy.”

My son, I showed my son Raiders of the Lost Ark. My son looks just like my wife, who is very blonde and blue-eyed. And we were taking a walk and he goes, “Dad, I know what I want to be for Halloween. I want to be one of those guys from Raiders.”

And I was like, “What are you talking about? What guys?”

He goes, “You know, the guys with the uniforms.”

And I really thought long and hard about it because he would look so good, you know? And then I could just be back there, so he’d be up, ringing the doorbell, and I’d be back there like, “It’s okay, we’re Jewish.”

He doesn’t know. But now all of my choices that I make are really — so we do go to the theater a lot because I do want to go see movies with them and I want to experience them with them. And he keeps asking me, “Daddy, when I can see Godfather? When can I see Godfather?”

And I’m like, I don’t know what a good age is for Godfather. But you know what will ensue after that. So, that’s what grabs my attention. It’s no longer about me.

I mean, I still go and see movies, of course, and I love movies. And I just did a whole big crazy Breaking Bad binge watch that was awesome. And I met Vince Gilligan. I got my picture with Vince Gilligan. Ooh! Kelly and I were standing there. We were peeing. It was great. And Rian Johnson directed…

**Rian:** You’re creeping me out a little bit. [laughs]

**Craig:** But, anyway, so that’s what draws my attention. My kids.

**John:** Yeah, similar to Craig, I have an eight-year-old daughter. And I realized that like, Oh, she doesn’t know what Star Trek is. Like she’d already watched all the Star Wars and we’ve talked on the podcast about how she can’t distinguish the good Star Wars from the bad Star Wars. Like, oh my god, taste! And I don’t know how you teach her that.

But she also had no idea what Star Trek was. And so I was like, Netflix! And so the original series of Star Trek is there. And so I could sort of curate sort of her introduction to what Star Trek is and what that world is. And the decision to start with Kirk and that whole crew in the original series and then move to later ones. You start with later ones where the world is not as incredibly sexist and that.

So, it’s been fascinating to sort of figure out how you introduce Star Wars to a kid. And so that’s been a great afternoon because really most of parenthood is figuring out like, God, how do I pass the time? And Star Trek is an amazing way —

**Craig:** There’s other parts to it. I mean…

**John:** Well, yes, there are some other good things. There’s driving. It’s been amazing for me to be able to rewatch something that was so important to me in my youth with somebody who is experiencing it for the first time. So, that’s a great thing about Netflix in our life.

Anything you’d like to?

**Kelly:** Like Rian, I’ve just been trying to force myself to get out. I’ve been doing a lot of rewriting in London this year, so actually I’ve been going to the theater a lot and watching live performance which has been kind of amazing and made me want to go back to my theater roots a bit.

**Craig:** You run a theater, don’t you?

**Kelly:** Yes. Me and Tom Hardy. We run a theater in London.

**Craig:** What does that mean to run a theater?

**Kelly:** We don’t do anything. [laughs]

**Craig:** You don’t do the curtains and the — ?

**Kelly:** We’re supposed to be putting plays on, but we’re a little bit busy.

**Craig:** Right. Very good.

**John:** All right. We have time for two more questions, so I’m going to pick you, sir, as the first question.

**Craig:** Yeah, every time.

**John:** Yeah, that was Monster Apocalypse and Pacific Rim. I just turned in the draft of Monster Apocalypse for Tim Burton, which is a DreamWorks movie. And Stacey Snider called, who runs DreamWorks, and says, “There’s this movie Pacific Rim that is about giant robots fighting monsters. And it’s the same thing. Like we cannot do your movie.” And she was completely honest and upfront about sort of like we can’t be the second movie and it’s just not going to work. It’s this Armageddon/Deep Impact. Sorry.

And it was heartbreaking. So, the answer is yes. Although what I would generally say to most people, that’s a rare occasion. And so often you’ll see something in the trades that sort of sounds like your movie, but it really is nothing like your movie, at all. It’s just like there’ s a ghost in it, but that’s all the similar thing to it.

So, don’t stop just because you saw an announcement about something, because most of those movies never happen. Most of the situations, it just seems similar because it’s one sentence in Variety.

**Rian:** For a long time when I was writing Looper and getting it together there was a project that was at Disney forever called Gemini Man, which every time I would tell anyone about Looper they would say, “Oh, you know about Gemini Man, though, right?”

But, yeah, it just speaks to your thing of you never know what’s going to happen. I think that project got very close to getting made, but it didn’t end up being a problem.

**Craig:** And sometimes these movies come out and there’s two movies where they take over the White House. And there’s two movies that are animated about ants. And there are two movies about volcanoes exploding. And the truth is you do — you can get caught up in the, Oh, my idea! And they occupy their own space.

I mean, how many movies have we seen of a certain kind? How many car racing movies are there now? But they occupy their own space. So, it’s fine. I don’t worry about stuff like that. If it happens, it happens. What are you going to do?

**John:** Cool. Last question right here.

**Craig:** Cue music.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** [sings] “You’ll never find another love like mine.”

Of course. I certainly — I’ve been learning from John for a long time. The podcast itself probably isn’t where I learn as much, although when we talk about craft things I feel like every time we talk I get a different perspective.

It’s easy for us to just keep falling into our own rut, but hearing how other people do things is always going to influence, always. But really all of my writer friends, I have lots of writer friends, they all influence me and they all influence me through my work, I’m sorry, through their work.

And I’m not emulating anybody, but I learn something every time I see a movie. I learned something when I saw your movie. I learned something, god knows I learned a lot when I saw your movie. I mean, so I’m like a little sponge constantly picking up things.

I’ve watched all that Breaking Bad stuff and it actually really — watching Breaking Bad, I don’t write TV, but it was so cinematic. And I just felt, boy, I’ve really got to remember to be more cinematic. These little things. But, yeah, I’ve learned a ton from you.

**John:** Yeah. I’ve learned a ton from Craig, too. I rag on Craig a lot. So, people who listen to the show —

**Craig:** You do?

**Kelly:** That’s sexy.

**John:** Yeah, maybe a little bit.

**Craig:** You mean, privately? [laughs]

**John:** Exactly. Yeah, off mic.

**Craig:** When we’re not together?

**John:** Yeah, I’m throwing you under many busses.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** No. I have learned a lot from Craig. And so part of the reason why my impetus was to go to Craig to co-host the show was that Craig knew a lot more about sort of business/technical/right stuff, WGA stuff for sure, because he’s really good at that stuff.

But I’ve been surprised how disciplined he is about the actual craft of screenwriting and sort of that process. And getting the work done and being professional. And that has been a great education. Because really ultimately, unlike every other job in making movies or making television, writers are alone. And so we’re alone at a computer. There is no one else to talk to about the things that we’re doing.

And so to have weekly conversation with Craig, who is trying to do the same things I’m doing, is incredibly therapeutic. And so it’s been a remarkable sort of hundred and some episodes to talk through that stuff, too.

**Craig:** Isn’t that nice? Aw…

**John:** And, Craig, whenever I’m like at all nice to Craig, he gets all mushy.

**Craig:** It’s so nice.

**John:** I gave Craig a hug last night.

**Craig:** I know! I freaked out. I was like, Who is this?! Because it’s like, I mean, he really is my Vulcan friend. And I’m like McCoy, I guess. McCoy was always the worst because everybody finally would just say, “McCoy, shut up.”

And he’d be like, “All right!” And that’s me. But you’re like — he’s Spock. And so when Spock hugs you you’re like, What the…?!

**John:** Something wrong has happened.

**Craig:** This is so cool.

**Kelly:** It was really cute.

**John:** So much right has happened today. So, guys thank you so much for coming to Scriptnotes Live here.

**Craig:** Thank you, Austin.

**John:** This was awesome. Thank you. Thank our guests.

FOLLOWING APPLAUSE

**Craig:** Thank you. I needed that. Because I didn’t snort four pounds of coke like you did, apparently. What the hell?

**John:** Whoa, whoa, I’ve got energy. And…

Links:

* The [20th Annual Austin Film Festival](http://www.austinfilmfestival.com/aff/live/)
* Rian Johnson [on IMDb](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0426059/) and his [blog](http://www.rcjohnso.com/) and [Twitter](https://twitter.com/rianjohnson)
* Kelly Marcel [on IMDb](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2813876/) and [Twitter](https://twitter.com/MissMarcel)
* [Saving Mr. Banks](http://movies.disney.com/saving-mr-banks) opens this December
* [The Black List](http://blcklst.com/)
* [Timecrimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timecrimes) on Wikipedia
* [Letters of Note](http://www.lettersofnote.com/)
* The [Victorinox 40003 Wavy Edge Utility Knife with 4-3/4″ Blade](http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000I4RGG4/?tag=johnaugustcom-20) on Amazon
* [Fade In](http://www.fadeinpro.com/) and [Writer Duet](https://writerduet.com/) should collaborate
* [Primer](http://erbpfilm.com/film/primer), and [on Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primer_(film))
* Craig [met Vince Gilligan](https://twitter.com/clmazin/status/394199517169319936/photo/1)
* [Outro](http://johnaugust.com/2013/scriptnotes-the-outros) by Scriptnotes listener Lawrence Fehler

Scriptnotes, Ep 114: Blockbusters — Transcript

October 23, 2013 Scriptnotes Transcript

The original post for this episode can be found [here](http://johnaugust.com/2013/blockbusters).

**John August:** Hello and welcome. My name is John August.

**Craig Mazin:** My name is Craig Mazin.

**John:** And this is Episode 114, the Blockbuster episode of Scriptnotes, a podcast about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters.

**Craig:** Ka-boom!

**John:** Craig, the most important question of all is how far are you into Grand Theft Auto V?

**Craig:** I finished the solo story and then I started doing a bunch of little sidey things that we’re left over, like for instance there’s this thing where you can go and find all of these little scattered pieces of a letter that lead you to solve a murder mystery.

**John:** Ah-ha.

**Craig:** And I ended up somewhere around 80%, so the other 20% are things that I, I mean, some of them I can do. Some of them just never, ever, ever are going to happen. And then I was like, eh, I think I’m going to start over. And so I’ve started over playing the solo thing again.

**John:** Nice. Great.

**Craig:** How about you? Where are you?

**John:** I’ve just barely started. So, I’m still with Franklin. I have a dog now that I can take —

**Craig:** Chop. You’ve got Chop.

**John:** So I can take the dog for some walks. But I don’t feel like I’ve really started any serious missions because the truth is it’s hard to say whether I’m worse at shooting or worse at driving. But those are two crucial skills that I have yet to really master in this game.

**Craig:** You’ll get there. You’ll get there. I believe in you.

**John:** Yeah. I’ve never actually finished Grand Theft Auto 4. And I liked it a lot, but I actually just got done with it. And I don’t know that I’ll ever finish this game, but I really am impressed by the version of Los Angeles that it creates.

**Craig:** Well, when we get to One Cool Thing, my One Cool Thing today is Grand Theft Auto V related. And when you watch that you will be even more impressed.

**John:** Well, Grand Theft Auto V is a blockbuster by any definition of the term blockbuster. It made $800 million since opening salvo. Today we’re going to be talking about blockbusters in general and the topics specifically are this new book that came out that talks about Hollywood’s obsession with blockbusters and how it may actually be a reasonable choice for Hollywood.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** We’re going to talk about big name actors who don’t like to be directed.

**Craig:** [laughs] I can’t wait!

**John:** And finally we’re going to answer a reader question about following up after a general meeting which is, I thought, very timely and important for people to talk about.

**Craig:** Lovely.

**John:** Lovely. First off some housekeeping. This is our last Skype episode for awhile because next week you and I are both in Austin for the Austin Film Festival.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** Now, you and I are on various panels there, most of which will not be recorded and will not be part of Scriptnotes. So, people have asked, “Hey, that Alien panel you’re going to be on, John, are you going to put that on a podcast?” Nope, that’s an Austin Film Festival thing.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** So, I think it will be a great session, but you’ll actually have to be there to see the session.

**Craig:** Yeah. I’m getting the same thing. I’m doing a seminar on structure and character and theme and a lot of people have been asking is it going to be recorded, is there going to be a transcript. Even if we could — I think they actually record everything at Austin, but the whole point is you got to actually support the festival by showing up.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** You know, this is for people who paid for their badge. So, no, you get nothing.

**John:** Yeah, that badge. You get nothing.

**Craig:** Nothing!

**John:** But what you will get is a live episode of Scriptnotes.

**Craig:** Yes.

**John:** That will be Saturday — we’re recording it live Saturday at 12:45pm at the Intercontinental Stephen F. Austin Ballroom.

Now, Craig, when we first talked to Austin about going back and doing another live Scriptnotes, because that was our first live Scriptnotes last year with Aline Brosh McKenna, it was a very fun time. We said, “Hey, you know what? Last time you stuck us at a really early timeslot. It was hard for people to like wake up and be there.” So, we said, let’s get a really great timeslot.

So, we’re now at 12:45 in the afternoon. But have you actually looked at the schedule, Craig, to see what we’re up against?

**Craig:** No, god. What are we — who is our competition?

**John:** So, our competition is Rob Thomas talking about making the Veronica Mars movie.

**Craig:** All right. Okay.

**John:** And our friend Franklin Leonard talking to Jenji Kohan about Orange is the New Black.

**Craig:** Well, look, those are steep, but it’s not like they put us up against Vince Gilligan.

**John:** Yes, Vince Gilligan is early in the day. So, you can come for Vince Gilligan and then come to see us. I just feel like, you know, when we had these initial conversations we talked in a very general sense like how about we do an early evening so people could maybe drink a little, that kind of thing. That didn’t end up happening. So, I feel like we may need to step up our game a little bit for the live show is really what I’m saying.

So, I would urge people to come to our show because while we will be recording it, I’m going to plan some things that you kind of have to be there in person to experience. I’m not quite entirely sure what those are going to be yet. We’ll discuss them probably on the flight to Austin.

**Craig:** Okay.

**John:** But there will be some special live things there.

**Craig:** Are we on the same flight?

**John:** I don’t know. I think I’m flying in on Thursday.

**Craig:** So am I. Are you flying Thursday on American?

**John:** No, I’m flying on Southwest.

**Craig:** Well, we’re not on the same plane. So, we’ve got real problems.

**John:** You got an upgrade on that whole flight thing. So, that is one of the things we will be doing in Austin. The second thing we’ll be doing is the Three Page Challenge. And like the Writers Guild Foundation Three Page Challenge we did, the people who wrote those three pages will be in the room with us. And so we will be talking with them about their three pages, which is usually great and fun. So, we’ll record that.

People write in saying, “Hey, do my pages.” We’ve actually already picked all the people who we’re going to do in that session. They already know they’re the people that are picked, so you don’t need to send in special things for Austin. It’s awesome you’re going to be in Austin and have three pages, but we will not be covering them there in Austin unless you’ve already heard from us.

**Craig:** Exactly. And I do want to add that there is a consistent thing happening now that makes me super happy. And that is that we do the Three Page Challenges and the people who are featured on it tweet us and are really appreciative, even if we were critical of the pages and kind of got into a deep analysis of some things that maybe we’ve both thought weren’t right. Everybody has been really appreciative and really — it’s a good sign that they’re taking this stuff the right way because the truth is that you and I in our daily lives as writers are getting this kind of feedback constantly. So, it’s a good sign. Very good sign.

**John:** I would agree. And we should stress that the whole Three Page Challenge, the initial step of that is Stuart reading everything, so Stuart really does read everything. And he makes decisions about what things to send on to us based on what he thinks are really good things that he’s read and liked that would be useful for our listeners.

So, if you send something through and Stuart hasn’t picked it, it’s either because Stuart has a bunch of stuff that’s kind of like it, that makes him think that maybe it’s not the right thing for us to talk about right now.

So never feel bad if we don’t talk about your thing. If we do talk about your thing, know we’re talking about it because it was one of the most interesting things that crossed our virtual transom.

**Craig:** Correct. And as always, blame Stuart.

**John:** Yes. Blame Stuart.

**Craig:** Yes.

**John:** Craig, a couple episodes ago we talked about what’s next, because basically I had finished up Big Fish, I was trying to figure out what the next thing is I was going to write. And so that’s somewhat coalesced over this past week. And this afternoon I was at lunch with the producer of — I can’t remember if it is the first thing or the second thing I described, but the thing that was based on some preexisting IP that was going to be really complicated and you’d talked me out of it to some degree, like this sounds like it’s going to be a mess.

And so we had a really good lunch and we talked through sort of how it could be kind of a mess and I think it’s a good segue into our conversation of blockbusters because this is going to be an expensive movie to make. And so easily half of our conversation was not about the story itself, but about the process of how we would get from this idea to a finished movie and how we would get this idea to this studio that owns the IP through the studio and how you conceive it as a big movie.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** And that’s one of the things we don’t — I don’t think we’ve necessarily talked enough about on the show is what does it mean to be a big movie and at what point do you start talking about story and what point do you start talking about the movie. And so this conversation was largely about the movie.

**Craig:** Yeah, and it’s changed, hasn’t it, because when we started it seemed like basically development was really — they were okay with shots in the dark. “All right, well, we like that idea, we like that thought. Go ahead. Write the script. Here’s some money and let’s read the script and then we’ll see.”

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** And now I think everybody feels that they kind of have to build the ship while they’re on the ship.

**John:** Yes. Or even before you’re kind of deciding to board the ship, because a lot of my decision process right now is is this actually a movie that the studio will make.

**Craig:** Ah-ha.

**John:** An so are we going to invest a tremendous amount of time coming up with the perfect pitch for this movie if it’s ultimately not a movie that this studio can make.

**Craig:** Correct. So true. Great.

**John:** And so part of this is prefaced on a conversation I had with another producer about another project and said, “Oh, it’s great news. The studio actually already owns the rights to this book. They bought it five years ago. And I don’t think they even know that they have the rights to this book. It’s going to be perfect.” And so I read it and I’m like, “I don’t think they’re going to make this movie.”

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** “But they already own the book!” It’s like I don’t think it was this regime that bought the book. I’m happy to talk about doing this movie, but I first want you to go to President of Production/Studio Head, whoever you want to talk to and ask candidly are they ever going to make this project.

And so they did — came back a week later and said, “Nope, we’re not.”

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** And that was a lot of time saved.

**Craig:** It was. And typically if they have a book that they haven’t done anything with and someone says, “They don’t even know they have the rights,” there’s a reason for that. It’s because they don’t care. [laughs]

**John:** Yes.

**Craig:** Yeah. If they wanted to make a movie out of it, they would have made a movie out of it.

**John:** Yeah. So, studios largely want to make blockbusters. And that’s a thing that we’ve talked about on the podcast before. And you had sent me this article by Derek Thompson from The Atlantic. And it was an interview with him and Anita Elberse, who is the author of this new book called Blockbusters. She’s a professor at the Harvard Business School.

And it was an interesting article and I haven’t read the full book, so again we’re doing that thing where we’re basing a discussion on an article about a book rather than the book itself. But some of the points I thought were interesting.

And so the basic theory of blockbusters and sort of spending money on blockbusters is that — it’s a question of is it better to spend more money on fewer titles. And is dollar spent a blockbuster worth more or worth less than a dollar spent on a non- blockbuster.

**Craig:** And what the author, Anita Elberse, has found — and in an academic way, so she’s not a stakeholder in the business. She’s not somebody that’s trying to promote a certain kind of movie or promote writers, or actors, or directors, or anything like that. She’s not a movie critic. She’s I guess an economist or, yeah, something like that, or just a business — yeah, she is actually an economist.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** What she seems to have found is in general from a business strategy what she says is, “A blockbuster strategy means making fewer investments that are larger investments, but that strategy turns out to be economically safer than making more smaller bets.”

**John:** Yes. Now, some of that seems nonsensical at first, because we look at big giant movies that tanked that cost a tremendous amount of money and cost a tremendous amount of money to advertise and we say, “Okay, well that’s an example of why it was foolish to spend that much money on that particular movie.”

What she’s arguing is that there’s essentially silent evidence that we’re ignoring all the smaller movies that didn’t make back their money, and their marketing money, and if you added up all those they would actually cost more than the big movies that are tanking.

**Craig:** Yeah. So, there is a cost, there is a risk involved in everything. And so you have to account for the risk involved in making any movie, including the smaller movies, but she also found that there are these side benefits to the success of large movies that go beyond just the success of that large movie. For instance, the notion is that if you make the large movies, for your next movies you will attract better people. You’ll attract bigger actors, bigger authors, bigger IP, bigger writers and directors.

If you stop doing that, if you sort of go for a Men’s Warehouse model where you’re trying to go lower priced/higher volume, people that make quality entertainment start to stop thinking about you.

**John:** And I see there’s some logic there, but I also see some faults in that logic. So, let’s talk through this point. The idea that creators are attracted to places that are making big things is to some degree true. If you’re a person who wants to make giant movies and you have two places you can go with this giant movie, you’re going to feel more comfortable with a place that actually has experience making and marketing big movies. Likely. That seems reasonable.

But quality and bigness are not necessarily the same thing. And so you look at the HBO model or even A&E to some degree, like the places that are making really quality television shows, they’re not spending more money than other places. They’re just making better stuff. And so to some degree this halo effect that she’s describing, that people want to come there because of the reputation of the brand, it may have more to do with the kinds of movies you’re making, the kinds of movies you’re releasing.

So, there’s a reason why you may want to have this Fox Searchlight be releasing your film rather than MGM because Fox Searchlight has a brand to it.

**Craig:** Absolutely true. And, in fact, when I read this article, it seemed to me that this book and her research seems less valuable in service of an argument that you should make more blockbusters and maybe not make as many medium priced films. It’s more valuable in starting to at least defend and understand why this blockbuster mania happens at all.

**John:** Mm-hmm.

**Craig:** Because the truth is the movie studios will continue to make medium-priced movies and smaller-priced movies. They’ll do it, I mean, every comedy essentially is that.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** They won’t stop. But it was — sometimes when I talk to people I feel like it becomes this lazy intellectual crutch that studios are stupid and that they’re run by kind of Adderall/cracked-out dips who are 40-something 12 year olds. And they don’t care about a damn thing and they just want explosions and noise. And that’s not quite right. There is real success here in a lot of these things. We tend to look at… — It’s funny, this is sort of selection bias. When a movie like The Avengers comes out and a lot of people like it and it’s a huge blockbuster, we’ll say, “Great job, Joss Whedon.”

When a movie like The Lone Ranger comes out and a lot of people don’t like it and it costs a huge amount of money and is a big flop, people will say, “Oh, Hollywood, you’re stupid.”

Well, Hollywood is also The Avengers. [laughs] You know?

**John:** It is.

**Craig:** I mean, it gets credit and it gets punished for all things. So, a lot of these blockbusters — I mean, she points out something that’s so obvious it’s odd that it needs to be pointed out, and yet it does. Blockbusters are blockbusters because they bust blocks. People are showing up. What are we supposed to do? And then you start to run into this weird question of, well, so who should we be angry at? And the interviewer asked the question directly. So, consumers are to blame?

And her response is characteristically blunt. “As consumers we are at fault. These are the choices that we’re making.” [laughs] I thought that was a fair point.

**John:** Yeah. Of course the corollary argument with that is if you essentially have no choice because you’ve stopped making the other kinds of movies, there may be an audience who wants to see that other film and didn’t have a chance to see that other film because it didn’t exist. So, that becomes the supply and demand question is a reasonable question to ask, but audiences are ultimately responsible for I think the kinds of movies we make.

**Craig:** We are.

**John:** I think she didn’t understand some aspects of the film industry that were a little bit frustrating to me. Her point about trailers is like, “Well, if you have a big movie then you get to put five trailers on that and that’s how it works.” Well, that’s not how trailers work at all.

And in a general way, if Warner Bros. has The Hangover III coming out, Warner Bros. can attach one trailer to that. They know they can lock on one trailer to that.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** Everything else is horse trading. And it’s trying to get your film’s trailer attached to this next thing that’s going.

**Craig:** That’s correct.

**John:** And you’re negotiating both with the other studios. You’re negotiating with exhibitors. It’s an incredibly complicated thing. So, just having a big hit film doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re going to be able to market your next film more easily because of that.

**Craig:** I agree. That’s something that’s far more functional in television where you’re using big event television to platform promotions for new shows. However, what she didn’t mention that she ought to have, and maybe she does in her book, one great benefit of blockbusters is that they increase our exhibition power. As a studio, if you know you’ve got, all right, so Warner Bros. announced that they have more Harry Potter universe films coming out. Very big deal for them.

Well, when they have a smaller movie that they are pushing, it’s very easy for them to lean on exhibitors and say, “Run this movie or you’re not getting Harry Potter.”

**John:** Yup.

**Craig:** And that’s a big deal. That’s a huge deal.

**John:** I think we’ve talked about on the podcast before is international results and a larger portion of studio’s take. And having more movies coming down the pipeline is very helpful in terms of getting money to come out of those countries. And so you’re able to sort of go to Kraplachia and say like, “Hey, you still owe us for this movie that came out six months ago. You’re not getting this next movie until you pay us that money.” And that is a useful thing, too.

And so any movie is helpful for that coming down the pipe, but a giant blockbuster, like the next Avengers, they really want that. And that will become an important tool for getting that money back out of exhibitors, especially overseas.

**Craig:** Yeah. My take away from this is not to say big, stupid, awful blockbusters are worth defending. They’re not. No big, stupid, awful movie is worth defending, or are small, awful, stupid movies worth defending. I’ve been involved in a couple myself. [laughs]

It’s more that it’s not just willy-nilly stupidity. It is actually a strategy that is economically working, even — we discussed this already — even in a summer where the media narrative seemed to be, “Hollywood is falling apart,” Hollywood made a ton. In fact, I believe this summer is bigger than last summer.

**John:** It is in fact bigger than last summer. Because we’re conveniently forgetting things like Iron Man 3, which made a gazillion dollars.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** And the movies that weren’t tiny but were not giant that also did really, really well. You have The Heat. You have We’re the Millers, the things that did great.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** And you can say, like those two are original films, but Hangover III, it still brought in a ton of money.

**Craig:** 300-and-some-odd million bucks. I mean, there were plenty of movies that worked really well. I mean, Gravity right now is obviously killing it. And that will continue to happen. It’s more that the chattering class hates sequel-itis, and I understand why.

And they resent the audience for ignoring movies that they love. And I understand. It’s dispiriting to see some movie that’s a beautiful piece of work come out and be totally ignored while a big, huge, crap fest rakes money in, except it’s not a crap fest to a lot of the people going to it. It’s like, so you just have to let that go.

Look, we’ve said it before, and I’ll repeat it: I want movie studios to make more medium-sized and smaller movies. I want it. I want them to make more movies in general. And we’ve often said you can’t get to sequels if you haven’t had the first one.

But, it would be just as much of a mistake to pretend that blockbusters were some kind of weird blink or failure strategy. It’s not.

**John:** It’s not. So, the topic of conversation I suspect happening at every movie studio this week, the past couple weeks, has to be Gravity. And it’s a movie that Craig has not seen yet, which is —

**Craig:** My kids won’t…my kids…it’s my kids.

**John:** Kids! I know, oh, those kids! So, two threads I want to talk about here. Generally as a screenwriter it is important to see the movies that everyone else is talking about so you can have a point of conversation about those.

**Craig:** Oh, yes.

**John:** And so obviously, Craig, it’s on your short list of things you need to see really quickly.

**Craig:** Next movie I see.

**John:** The reason why I think, you know, obviously the year is not finished yet, but I think Gravity will become the most important movie for Hollywood this year for a couple of reasons. It was expensive, but it wasn’t crazy expensive. It wasn’t a sequel. It was a director who everyone knew was incredibly talented and had made some other sort of big hits but hadn’t made the one that was sort of all his. It was risky, even though it had giant stars, it was risky.

But most importantly to me, it’s a movie that’s just entirely a movie. It’s a movie that’s 90 minutes long. It is focused on one person’s survival story. You have a character who doesn’t need to save the world. She needs to save herself. And it’s a thing that exists, that wants to be made for a big screen.

So, I see this movie and I look at some of the other big movies we’re making that are just huge, and sprawling, and 2.5 hours, and involve myriad subplots. I think what was refreshing, I think the conversation a lot of people are going to be having is how to make a movie that’s more like Gravity.

**Craig:** Mm-hmm.

**John:** There’s terrible lessons you can learn from it, like we should make more movies in space. No. That’s not the lesson.

**Craig:** They will! [laughs]

**John:** They will. There will be lot more movies set in space.

**Craig:** No question.

**John:** But the lesson, and what got me excited about it, which I think is going to get other people excited about it, too, is that it was a reminder that you don’t need to save the world. And this is a thing that we talked about before in the Damon Lindelof conversation is do you need to — how big do the stakes need to be?

Well the stakes, it turns out, can be about one person if the story is tightly constructed around that one person’s journey. And that, I think, is the biggest game changer of all.

So, whether it’s in space, or whether it’s taking place on the ocean or anywhere else, the small straightforward story can be a winner.

**Craig:** And it’s putting the lie to these things that we’re constantly hearing that the only movies that are hits are movies with presold audiences, or movies with recognizable IP or titles, and movies that aren’t about adults and adult situations. That’s’ all just not true.

And as many times as it’s happened this year, I would think it has to be sinking in. People have to be looking and going, well, wait a second, what were the profit margins on the Melissa McCarthy movies that came out this year? What was the profit margin on Gravity?

And let’s also remember that in these really big blockbusters, you know, the Titanics, the $200+ million movies, the expense is greater than what it appears because almost inevitably in order to support a structure that large you need the kind of talent that demands first dollar gross, big portions of the profits. That doesn’t necessarily happen when you’re making these smaller movies. The hits are much hittier.

I think that Hollywood certainly, certainly, has had an interesting positive wakeup call. The failure of a couple of blockbusters this summer, there’s no lesson to take from that because we’ve had just as many blockbusters do great. It’s actually a positive lesson this time around, that the success of some of the smaller movies has been really eye opening.

And I hope that that sets a trend.

**John:** A thing we talked about quite early on in the podcast is if we could run Hollywood what would we do differently. And one of the things we both came back to is like look for filmmakers who genuinely have a voice and a vision and make their movies. And Alfonso Cuarón is a great example of a filmmaker who has that. I think Rian Johnson, who’s going to be our guest in Austin, is a filmmaker who has that. And it was very smart money to spend that on Alfonso Cuarón and on that movie.

You have two giant stars in the movie who help make it safe to make the movie, but if you actually look at the film, if you had actors as good as Clooney and Sandra Bullock in your film, they didn’t need to be stars at all.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** You could have made it with anybody who was as good as they are.

**Craig:** Well, yeah, the stars basically get you to show up opening weekend. The movie keeps you in your seat and the movie is what gets you to come back over and over.

**John:** I honestly think you could have made that with somebody who wasn’t Sandra Bullock and it would have turned out just —

**Craig:** You think it would have opened just the same?

**John:** I think it would have because I think you have that vision that —

**Craig:** That trailer was pretty remarkable.

**John:** That trailer is great. I mean, it was incredibly smartly marketed.

**Craig:** And she’s in a mask anyway, right? [laughs]

**John:** Yeah, she is! She’s phenomenal in it, but I honestly think you could have put Noomi Rapace in it and it would have worked.

**Craig:** Look, he made Children of Men with — there were known actors like Clive Owen, but not necessarily what you’d call big movie stars. And people showed up for sure. He’s extraordinarily good at what he does.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** He’s special. He really is.

**John:** I think he’s got a future there.

**Craig:** [laughs] You know, it would be nice if he made more movies. But you know what that’s like? I don’t want the guy making the Cronuts to speed up production. You know, go ahead, make one every five years. If that’s what makes… — It’s like John Lee Hancock. Go ahead, make one every five years. If that’s what keeps the quality up, I’m happy.

**John:** I’m happy, too. Now, two other big actors who were recently doing press for a film are Morgan Freeman and Kevin Kline.

**Craig:** Hmm.

**John:** Mm.

**Craig:** Mm.

**John:** Do you have your copy handy that we can read this together?

**Craig:** You want to be Morgan or you want me to be — ?

**John:** I think I need to be Morgan Freeman.

**Craig:** All right. You be Morgan and I’ll be Kline.

**John:** So, this is an interview about Last Vegas which is a film that they are out promoting. I think this is from Entertainment Weekly. And they’re talking about directors and the challenge of working with directors. So, I am Morgan Freeman.

**Craig:** And I am Kevin Kline.

**John:** [affects an accent] “Too many of them get in the way. You get the title of ‘director’ and you start directing actors rather than directing the movie.”

**Craig:** I’m sorry, why — this is a minstrel show. [laughs]

**John:** [laughs] You think I’m trying to talk too Morgan Freeman?

**Craig:** Yeah. It’s like you’re getting black. Like “too many of them get in the way.”

**John:** I’m trying to do my serious narration voice.

**Craig:** You’re trying to do the Tittie Sprinkles Morgan Freeman.

**John:** Ha!

“I don’t like to be directed. The worst culprits are writers who direct their own material. Oh God.”

**Craig:** “When you arrive on set and the director goes, ‘Here’s my idea for this character,’ I go, ‘I’ll be right back!’ Or — and this was told to me by a really good director — he said, ‘Okay, here’s what I think your character is thinking at this moment.'”

**John:** “Ooh…”

**Craig:** “You tell me what I’m thinking? I’ll tell you what I’m thinking. You figure out where to put the camera and the light.”

**John:** “If you want me to go faster or to go slower, you can say that.”

**Craig:** [sighs]

**John:** Well, thank you Morgan Freeman and Kevin Kline for making it super clear how you feel about the relationship between the writer and the director.

**Craig:** [laughs]

**John:** So I’m reading this and I’m thinking like, I quickly IMDb’d who directed Last Vegas.

**Craig:** I know! I know! Well, I mean —

**John:** It’s Jon Turteltaub. And like if you’re the director of this movie you’re going, “Oh my god!” Or if you’re a person who directed any movie with these people.

**Craig:** Well, let me give you a couple names of people whose jaws must have dropped. Morgan Freeman says, “The worst culprits are writers who direct their own material. Oh God.”

So, here are a couple of movies he’s been in where the writer directed the movie. The Batman movies, Chris Nolan.

**John:** Oh, that’s true.

**Craig:** And The Shawshank Redemption.

**John:** Oh yeah!

**Craig:** Frank Darabont.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** I guess that was the worst.

**John:** That was clearly just the worst. It’s remarkable that that turned out okay considering that Frank Darabont…

**Craig:** It went okay. And then, of course, Kevin Kline makes a great point. “If a director says, ‘Here’s what I think your character is thinking at his moment,'” it is appropriate to just walk away because the director’s job is to figure out where to put the camera and the light. [laughs] What?!

**John:** Yes. How dare that director…

**Craig:** Direct!

**John:** …focus on. Yes. On this.

**Craig:** It’s unbelievable!

**John:** It really is just remarkable. So, I have this tiny little sliver of sympathy is that there are some terrible directors who will try to micromanage actors in ways that is maddening.

**Craig:** Sure.

**John:** But to generalize it out to this degree is absolute madness. And so I found this just bewildering.

**Craig:** Look, no question that there are bad directors. And I can understand that it must be very frustrating if you are an actor of exceptional talent with enormous amount of experience, far more than say the director directing you. It must be very frustrating to have them interfere with the process in a way that is counterproductive.

However, when Morgan Freeman says, “You get the title of ‘director’ and you start directing actors rather than directing the movie,” all I can say is that’s their job. They’re responsible —

**John:** It is their job.

**Craig:** They’re responsible for your performance. Directing a movie isn’t like directing a documentary. You are creating performances with the actors.

**John:** Yes.

**Craig:** I mean, why can’t we — just like I’m… — You know, this reminds of those whiny writers, “The director, blah, blah, blah,” yeah, because he changed a thing? Because he had to. It happens sometimes. And it reminds me of those directors who are like, “Stupid writers. Making me shoot what’s on the page!” It’s just — this is clichéd goofy navel-gazing solipsism. I’m shocked by this.

**John:** Yeah. I’m surprised, too. And a little saddened, honestly.

**Craig:** Yeah!

**John:** Because I like both of them and I think they’ve both done really good work. They’ve also done stuff that’s not been so awesome, but now I wonder what that process was like to get to the stuff that wasn’t so awesome.

**Craig:** Well…oh, and by the way, here’s one writer-director that Kevin Kline has worked with a couple times: Lawrence Kasdan.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** What a hack.

**John:** Lawrence Kasdan. God, that guy. Man. It’s remarkable that he’s…yeah.

**Craig:** You know, this is the kind of thing. Here’s my attempt to apologize for Morgan Freeman and Kevin Kline, who are terrific actors, and I assume that aside from this blip are fine gentlemen. Doing press for movies is awful and my guess is they were tired.

And then they started doing this thing that, look, as writers I’ll have conversations in this tone privately with other writers. You know, when you’re bucking yourself up and bitching and moaning. But to do it publicly like this is just bizarre. And certainly this example of here’s what I… — Even Kevin Kline’s example of this egregious behavior sounds like a very polite thing. “Here’s what I think your character is thinking at this moment.”

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** This is what I think. I’m directing the movie. I’m cutting it! When you’re gone, [laughs] I’m cutting it! Right?

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** You’re here for the middle part of this process. I was here before you. And I’ll be here after you. So, isn’t it fair that I express what I think your character is thinking? And if you disagree, let’s have a conversation.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** Geez, man. Bummer.

**John:** Yeah, but your job is to put the camera and the light in place.

**Craig:** The light. By the way, it’s not even the director’s job to put the light. It’s like how many movies has Kevin Kline been in? So, the DP puts the lights up. [laughs]

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** Oh boy.

**John:** Mm.

**Craig:** Oh boy.

**John:** Yeah. So that was dispiriting. And what’s frustrating is that it’s in a mainstream publication, so here are well respected actors who are quite talented who are saying that this is the way it should be. And so a general population — or god help us — a young aspiring actor thinks like, “That’s how you should be.”

**Craig:** Uh-uh. No.

**John:** No.

**Craig:** No, no, no. And you know what?

**John:** You want to take full responsibility for your performance, but you also need to understand that your performance is part of a greater thing. A greater whole.

**Craig:** Of course. And I actually would bet money that neither Morgan Freeman nor Kevin Kline actually behave that way on sets. I think this is just kind of locker room boasting. I really do. I don’t believe because why? Why would you not be interested in what the director… — Look, if the director thinks that your character is thinking something else, they’re going to edit it that way. I mean, wouldn’t you want to know? I don’t know. It was pretty wild. It was pretty wild.

**John:** Yeah. I’m going to assume also that these guys are probably also largely wonderful to have on the set. But the thing is even if you have a nightmare actor, in a film that nightmare actor is only there for while you’re shooting the film.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** And they can be a pain in the ass, but eventually you’ll be done. Where I have the greatest sympathy of all is for TV showrunners who are faced with a nightmare actor.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** Because you and I both know people who are in those situations and that is a completely different beast.

**Craig:** Both, by the way, we know the other way, too, where a wonderful actor is jammed with a showrunner that is absolutely nuts. Bad marriages are bad.

**John:** It’s a conversation worth having the next time we have a guest on who does both TV and film, because it’s a completely different relationship when you are making one film versus a potentially five-year marriage on a TV show.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** It’s a very different dynamic and different way of thinking about things. Because you are stuck with these people.

**Craig:** Yup.

**John:** And sometimes that’s great and sometimes it’s just really, really not great.

**Craig:** One thing that stuff like this brings to mind is that when you see a movie and you see things in it that are puzzling to you, it is natural to succumb to the illusion of intentionality, that everything is on screen because it was specifically intended to be that way and not, say, because the actor just had a completely different point of view and kind of just did something crazy. Or not because, say, the director blew it that day or there was a storm, or a set fell down, or they ran out of money, or a hundred things that can go wrong.

And, by the way, the opposite is true. Sometimes there are these wonderful moments in movies that were totally unplanned. They just happened.

**John:** Yes. And it’s lovely when those happen. Maybe a movie will get one of those and everything else will be fighting against the thing that happened that was not so awesome.

And you and I both, you know, not telling tales out of school, like Blade III was a classic example.

**Craig:** Oh boy.

**John:** Wesley Snipes just refused to actually do what was in the script and a lawsuit —

**Craig:** He wouldn’t even talked to Goyer. He would not talk to him.

**John:** Yes. So, that is basically a nightmare situation.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** But there have been other big recent movies where you look at the movies like, whoa, how did that happen? And you talk to the people behind the scenes and they’re like, “He refused to say any words.”

**Craig:** [laughs] Right.

**John:** Not just like he wouldn’t say the words on the page. He didn’t want to talk.

**Craig:** Right.

**John:** And, well, that makes it completely challenging to cut together a coherent story when that guy won’t talk.

**Craig:** Years ago I was on a set and the actor who was essentially the focus point of the scene, and was just there for a day, a cameo essentially, was drunk.

**John:** Yes.

**Craig:** Not a little drunk. DRUNK.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** And there was nothing you could do. You just sort of did what you could, you know?

**John:** I was at the Sundance Filmmaker’s Lab two years ago. I usually go there for the screenwriter’s portion of it in the summer, but I went for the director’s lab portion of it, which was great, and so much easier because basically as a director’s lab advisor you just show up on these little sets and you sort of see what they’re doing and if you have a good suggestion you say something. If you don’t, you just stand back and watch. As opposed to the screenwriter’s section where you actually had to read the scripts and talk through all the stuff. It’s exhausting.

So, the director’s section, I was up there and it was this little campfire scene. And the director clearly had a good plan for how he was going to shoot it. And there was this conversation. And I got there and I realized, I watched a take and I’m like, huh, that doesn’t really probably seem like what is supposed to be on the page. And then I realized that the older actor was completely drunk. And this was like eleven in the morning. Completely drunk.

And so as the advisor I had to pull the director fellow aside and say, “Look, I know you’re trying to cover this in a one-shot, and all this stuff. It’s just not going to happen. So, you’re going to have to really be smart about what you’re going to do and plan for what it is it going to be like when I’m in the editing room and I have to make sense of this thing and deal with the cards that you’re given.”

**Craig:** [pretending to slur] “You tell me what I’m thinking, I’ll tell you what I’m thinking! You figure out where to put the camera and the light. Action!” [laughs]

**John:** Uh-huh. Action!

**Craig:** Oy, thanks for calling their own action. The best part is at the very end Morgan Freeman says, “If you want me to go faster or to go slower, you can say that.” Thank you!

**John:** Thank you! That’s really nice. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

**Craig:** Slower?

**John:** So, basically whatever Morgan Freeman’s first instinct is is exactly the right instinct.

**Craig:** It’s just the speed.

**John:** It could be just be go a little faster, or a little slower.

**Craig:** Right. Just the speed.

**John:** So, basically he’s a knob and you’re allowed to turn Morgan Freeman’s knob a little bit. Not a lot.

**Craig:** Turning Morgan Freeman up. There’s a story — I assume it’s true — that George Lucas when he was directing the first Star Wars movie, the only direction he would ever give to any of them was either louder or faster. And Harrison Ford, who was a carpenter, made a board, a wooden board, and he put two lights and switch. And one thing said louder and one thing said faster. And so he said, “Here, you can just turn it.” And apparently Lucas didn’t laugh.

**John:** Yeah. And then in the prequels, he just decided to hold up a board and that was the acting style.

**Craig:** Right! The board was bored.

**John:** Oh god.

**Craig:** Geez Louise.

**John:** Geez. Yeah, I felt bad. I know Ewan. Ewan is fantastic. But that, ugh.

**Craig:** Argh. What are you gonna do?

**John:** What are you gonna do? We’re not going to talk about the prequels anymore.

**Craig:** Natalie Portman is a great actor.

**John:** She is.

**Craig:** I mean, I’ve seen Natalie Portman literally blow me away and then it’s like, um, boy, boy, nobody was helping her out.

**John:** No one is fantastic in those.

**Craig:** You can’t be.

**John:** No one is.

**Craig:** Because I got the feeling that they were in empty green rooms and there was no connection to anything. They didn’t understand what they were saying. The dialogue wasn’t particularly good. So, they were just sort of like, “What about this?”

And by the way, Morgan Freeman and Kevin Kline, you know, that’s when you get when the director is not helping you at all. [laughs] They’re like, “Go ahead. Yeah, no, you’re right. Just do it.”

**John:** “Just do that.”

**Craig:** “Nope, you know what? You tell me when you’re done.”

**John:** I think George Lucas —

**Craig:** “Yeah. And then we’ll move on.”

**John:** George Lucas knew where to put the lights. He put the camera. And look: success.

**Craig:** “Yeah, I’m done. I’m going to go have lunch. And somebody just send a PA to my trailer when you guys have decided that you got it.”

**John:** What is fascinating is that the director is in some ways the person who is the least — you could make it without the director to some certain degree. Like the AD could sort of like look at a shot list and tell everyone what to do. And someone could call action. That’s fine. And the actors could do their stuff. And you could do it all without that.

But without the director actually saying like, “Yes, this is what I want, no, this is not what I want, we’re going again, change this thing,” you don’t get anything done. And there’s no progress.

**Craig:** Well, of course. And let me also point out. You wouldn’t even be there at that point without a director anyway, because who has decided what everyone’s wearing, who’s decided what the sets look like, who’s decided that that’s what you’re even shooting that day? Everything is about the vision, the combined vision of the screenwriter and the director, who is oftentimes the same individual, much to Morgan Freeman’s chagrin, working with the actors to create a performance and a moment.

**John:** Yes.

**Craig:** Anyway. So, you know what? They’re great actors. I’m sure they’re great people. Hopefully this was just a weird moment for them. Maybe not. [laughs] We’ll find out.

**John:** [laughs] All right. We had a reader write in with a question that I thought was interesting. So, he says, “I am a semi-finalist in this year’s Nicholl Fellowship.”

**Craig:** Congratulations.

**John:** “And because of that my name is being circulated around town with other semi-finalists.” Congratulations. “Several managers and production companies have contacted me requesting the Nicholl script,” which is natural.

“One manager read the script right away. Loved it. Requested more scripts. Loved them. And set up a meeting. We met in his office and he did most of the talking, telling me his background, how he works, what he does.

“Of my scripts he liked a TV pilot, but they can’t do anything with it until TV season,” TV pilot season. “He also liked the semi-finalist feature but said it stood a better chance if I cut 15 pages. Both made sense to me. I pitched him the script I’m currently working on as well as log lines for two others on my writing to do list. He offered some feedback like he did for the pilot and the Nicholl feature, feedback about how I can best shave the project to increase its chances with the connections he has.

“At the end of the meeting, which lasted two hours, he asked if any other managers had contacted me. I said yes, but didn’t go into detail. He said, ‘Let’s keep in touch,’ and then we parted ways.”

**Craig:** Okay.

**John:** “This is the first manager I’ve ever met. So my questions are: What happened? Was this a good meeting or bad? He’s a young guy and seems like a good guy, but I don’t have anyone to compare him to. What’s the next step?”

**Craig:** Hmm. That is a good question. Well, you’re approaching this from a natural point of view of the young ingénue in the bar who’s just been hit on by a man. And you’re wondering, well geez, what does all that mean, and so on and so forth. I would argue to you that you flip the situation in your head and think of yourself as in charge and think of what you want as the thing that’s going to drive what happens next.

So, what happens next ideally is what you want to have happen next. If you like this manager and you think that he — is it a he or she?

**John:** I think it’s a he.

**Craig:** If you like this guy and you think that he is a good fit for you and that his position in the industry will help you, then you call up and say, “I want you to be my manager. Let’s sit down and talk about it. Let’s talk about what the arrangement will be and how it works, but I’m interested in you being my manager instead of these other people that want to be my manager.”

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** Real simple.

**John:** I agree with you. So, hopefully by the time we’re actually giving him this advice he’s met with some other people so he has a better sense of like who other personalities are and stuff. But it sounded like a good meeting to me.

**Craig:** Yeah!

**John:** Two hours is a long meeting. And if you like what his comments were about your scripts and the things you were talking about for log lines, that’s a good thing.

So, yes, generally that manager guy would follow up more, but if he hasn’t followed up more you can totally take the reins and call him back and say, “Yes.”

The true story is I hired my attorney, Ken Richman, and my agent, Kramer, had sent me out to meet a bunch of attorneys, but Richman was the first person I met. It was like, well, you’re perfect. So done. And I just said yes right there in the room and that was the guy and he’s been my attorney ever since.

So, sometimes it just clicks and it’s just right and that can be good and proper.

**Craig:** Absolutely.

**John:** Now, I would say this guy is young and that’s not a bad thing. And I think sometimes you get nervous about like, “Well, this person is really young and doesn’t know what they’re doing.” Well, but you’re also young and you don’t really know what you’re doing. So, sometimes it’s good to get somebody who is at that same place in life as you are and hopefully you’ll grow up together.

**Craig:** Mm-hmm.

**John:** And if you like his taste, because he obviously has good taste if he likes your script, if you like his notes, if you like his general style, if you don’t think you’re going to dread getting phone calls and emails from him, it might be the right fit.

**Craig:** Absolutely true. And I also kind of like the deal where he said, “Yeah, we had a meeting and I really enjoyed meeting with you,” and he’s not chasing you. He’s not being desperate. Nobody meets with anybody for two hours if it’s a bad meeting.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** No such thing. If you’re in a room with somebody and you’re, “Oh, god, this guy is just a zero, he’s a dud. I can’t sell him, I can’t sell his work. He doesn’t have anything else, he’s strange,” they just end it. And they give you some sort of shine on and off you go. But, no, two hours, obviously he’s interested. But he also knows that you’re out there meeting other managers and he’s sort of properly saying, “Great. All right. Well, let’s keep in touch meaning you tell me if you want to work with me. I’m not going to beg you. But I’m aware that you have to go do your due diligence.”

So, there you go.

**John:** Yeah.

**Craig:** Perfect.

**John:** I think that’s simple advice.

Craig, it’s come time for One Cool Things. So, my One Cool Thing is actually in the blockbuster theme. I started wondering like well what happened to all the old Blockbuster stores. Have they all been rebuilt as other things? The truth is, no. And so I found this website that had a great collection of photos of abandoned video stores which I think is such a terrific time capsule of sort of where we are right now.

Because it was a specifically built kind of place to hold a specific thing that we don’t need any more. And so Blockbusters themselves were pretty big and they had all those shelves. And they had a thing — it’s not all that straight forward to convert them to something else. It’s not like those giant Walmarts which are sort of a nightmare to convert to something else, but they’re just this sort of sad thing that exists.

And so I’ll put a link in the show notes for abandoned video stores.

**Craig:** Cool. Eerie. It’s like those photo essays of Detroit. [laughs]

**John:** Yes. [laughs]

**Craig:** Sorry, Detroit listeners, but —

**John:** Blockbuster video is sort of like the city of Detroit.

**Craig:** It’s like Detroit.

So, my One Cool Thing today is, as promised, Grand Theft Auto based. So, lots of fan-made videos because Grand Theft Auto V is such an enormous world. And there’s lots of fun things to do and most of the videos are generally mayhem. There’s some cool videos that a guy has done of five-star police chases. So, in Grand Theft Auto V, if you commit a minor crime like say punching someone or running someone over with a car and killing them, you get one star.

But as you continue to evade the police, or shoot at police, or things like that, your stars escalate. And the more stars you have, the more police are coming after you in helicopters. Five star, to even get five stars you’ve just got to go nuts. It’s hard to even get to it. And then there’s a cop literally every 12 feet. And so people have done these crazy five-star chase videos and videos where they pile up a bunch of cars and blow them all up. It’s fun.

But there’s one series that I think is amazing because it shows just how detailed and brilliant the game is. And it’s called GTA V Mythbusters. And there’s, I think, five of them. And basically they collect these myths that people put out there like, for instance, if you light a car on fire in Grand Theft Auto V, which you can do by pouring gasoline on it and then lighting it on fire, and then drive it into water. The water will extinguish the fire and you can save the car. And then they test it and they say, “Oh, yup, that’s true.”

**John:** Nice. This engine actually does — yeah, that’s great.

**Craig:** It’s amazing. Or like if you lure police helicopters into the turbine wind farms in the Mohave Desert area, the wind turbines will destroy the helicopter. True. [laughs]

**John:** Oh my god.

**Craig:** But there are some amazing ones that like never would have even occurred to me. For instance, I didn’t even realize, okay, so if you take a car and you light it on fire with some gasoline. Pour some gasoline on it, light it on fire, stand back. Eventually it will explode. I did not know that if you shot a car in the hood, then you could see gasoline spurting out of it. And you can actually drive the car until you run out of gas.

I did not know that. Then the question was myth. A car without gas in it will not explode. [laughs] So, they do this. They drive the car. It runs out of gas. It stops. They get out. They pour gasoline on top of the car. Light the car on fire and sit back. It does not explode.

**John:** Now, Craig, the crucial question which every listener is asking right now is are there Teslas in the game?

**Craig:** There are!

**John:** And I’m so happy to hear that.

**Craig:** Okay, now the deal with the Grand Theft Auto universe is that they don’t license real auto manufacturer names. They just fake them. They come up with copies. And I was kind of bummed because I was really hoping for a Tesla in the game and I couldn’t find one.

And then the other day I just randomly yanked some woman out of her car, as I typically do to drive somewhere, [laughs], and I got in —

**John:** You’re going to go home so you can play the game.

**Craig:** Yes, exactly. I was here in Old Town. And what I true and do in the game is if I have to go somewhere and I don’t have a car, I wait until a really cool car comes and then I steal that one, because it’s faster and it’s more fun.

So, this sporty car comes up and it looks like one I’ve maybe been in before. I yank a lady out. I get in. I start driving. I’m going super fast and I realize it’s not making any noise. And I’m like, wait a second. And so I stop the car and adjusted the camera so I could see the back of the car and it was a Coil. That was the brand name. Coil.

**John:** Nice.

**Craig:** And it was clearly a Tesla Roadster. So, when they were developing the game I assume they developed it before the Model S was a big deal, but the Tesla Roadster was still out there. So, the Tesla Roadster is in the game. It’s called a Coil. And it’s my favorite. And so I put it in a garage. It’s nice and safe.

**John:** Of course.

**Craig:** Yeah.

**John:** That’s good.

**Craig:** It’s such a good… — But anyway, GTA V Mythbusters, it’s so entertaining to watch it because some of that stuff is just — some of it, like, oh, there’s a strange glitch. Like if you land a helicopter on top of a jumbo jet you can get inside the jumbo jet and pilot it which is just ridiculous and glitchy. But some of it is just about the detail, the specificity of the details is just remarkable.

**John:** Yeah, it really is a remarkable universe. And so I deliberately — I don’t want my daughter to know that we actually have the game, so I keep it out there, but I do know parents who will like go out deep sea diving with their kids. Like the kid has no idea what the game actually is.

**Craig:** Oh cute.

**John:** You will drive carefully to the beach and then you will go deep sea diving. It’s like, oh, how nice.

**Craig:** Yeah, I won’t let my son anywhere near it. No way. Yeah.

**John:** Good parenting with Craig Mazin.

**Craig:** Yeah. Real easy, obvious parenting with Craig Mazin.

**John:** Great. So, standard boilerplate ending here. If you would like to send a message to me or Craig, Craig is @clmazin on Twitter. I’m @johnaugust on Twitter. Longer questions can be sent to ask@johnaugust.com.

If you would like a USB drive with the first 100 episodes of the show, we have a few more of those left so you can go to store.johnaugust.com and we are selling those there.

Craig and I will both be at the Austin Film Festival next week, so the next episode you hear will be one of our live shows, which will be fun.

**Craig:** Awesome.

**John:** And if you’re listening to us in iTunes or if you’re connected to iTunes, leave us a comment there because that helps other people find us and enjoy our show.

**Craig:** Thanks everybody.

**John:** Thanks everybody. Have a great week, Craig. And I’ll see you in Austin.

**Craig:** See you in Texas. Bye.

**John:** Bye.

Links:

* Come see Scriptnotes live at the 2013 [Austin Film Festival](http://www.austinfilmfestival.com/)
* [The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/10/the-big-business-of-big-hits-how-blockbusters-conquered-movies-tv-and-music/280298/) on Anita Elberse’s new book, Blockbusters, and the book [on Amazon](http://www.amazon.com/dp/0805094334/?tag=johnaugustcom-20)
* [Gravity](http://gravitymovie.warnerbros.com/) is in theaters now
* The relevant [Last Vegas interview excerpt](http://instagram.com/p/faO_XwGZ1W/)
* KnowYourMeme on [Morgan Freeman, Titty sprinkles](http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/people/morgan-freeman)
* IndieWire on [the Blade: Trinity lawsuit](http://blogs.indiewire.com/shadowandact/details-of-chaos-on-the-set-of-blade-trinity-indicate-production-was-troubled-from-the-start)
* Sundance Institute’s [feature film programs](http://www.sundance.org/programs/feature-film/)
* [Internet killed the Video Store: An Abandoned Industry](http://www.messynessychic.com/2012/09/06/internet-killed-the-video-store-an-abandoned-industry/) is John’s [One Cool Thing](http://johnaugust.com/onecoolthings)
* And [GTA V Mythbusters](http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVSZoKmDBr8UdW2MjaDo5uZ8ESO68Bdrk) is Craig’s [One Cool Thing](http://johnaugust.com/onecoolthings)
* [Outro](http://johnaugust.com/2013/scriptnotes-the-outros) by Scriptnotes listener Ashley Kotzur

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