More on the torrents
There’s been a lot of feedback and reaction on this site and others about my c’est la vie attitude towards The Nines showing up on BitTorrent. Some felt I was tacitly endorsing piracy (no), while others wondered if I’d feel the same if I had financed the movie, rather than writing and directing it. So I thought I’d address and clarify some of these issues.
I’m not bouncy with joy over my movie getting torrented, but I think it’s a stretch to equate unlawful downloading with traditional theft. As many commenters have pointed out, The Nines isn’t available in any legal form in many countries around the world, nor will it be in any foreseeable time frame. So I have a hard time arguing that a reader in Germany should pay for the movie when there’s no way he could.1
But I’d draw a distinction between an individual downloading an otherwise inaccessible movie and the business of piracy.
I get pissed off when I see blackmarket DVDs sold on the sidewalks of Manhattan, because those are literally discs we’re not selling. It’s organized crime. Even the big torrent sites are essentially profiting off others’ work, by selling ads. So yes, I’m mindful that even as I excuse the individual downloader, the system which allows the individual downloader is far less noble.
The pro-torrent argument, particularly for indie films which get limited distribution (like The Nines), is that a torrent allows a lot of people to see the movie who otherwise couldn’t. And yes, a filmmaker wants his work seen.
But he also wants to be paid for his efforts. No matter where you work — an office, a factory, a retail store — you do your job with the expectation of getting paid. If your employer decided he didn’t want to pay you, you’d be upset. If the employer said, “Well, the customers decided to take the products without paying for them,” you’d rightly tell him to get off his fat ass and hire a security guard.
That’s why I have no problem with Sony and the MPAA going after bootleggers and other merchants of ill-gotten films. It’s not just the studios’ right to see that the law is enforced; it’s their job.
But I’d steer the legal machinery towards stopping the true black market — counterfeit discs and camcorder specials — and spend more time coming up with legitimate, convenient alternatives to the torrents, so that’s it’s not any more difficult to find and download a movie legally.2 Apple’s new rental deal with the studios sounds promising. That and a dozen other efforts could make the market competitive, which will be better for everyone.
On the money
The Nines was independently financed. And while the money came from various sources, it all streamed through me. I signed every check. I own the copyright through Confederated Products LLC, which in turn licenses the movie to distributors like Sony, Newmarket and Optimum.
So when I refer to The Nines as being “my movie,” I’m not just claiming artistic ownership as writer/director. It really is mine. So unlawful downloading has a much more direct effect on me for The Nines than it would for the other movies I’ve written, like Go or Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.
One of the things I hope to do with The Nines — sometime after the writers’ strike, when I can call Sony again — is work with them to release a low-res version of all the source material for The Nines, so budding filmmakers can try their hand at cutting (and re-cutting) a real feature. So I’m watching this first wave of torrents carefully, hoping the people who are downloading The Nines are doing it because they love movies, and not because they want to screw over some mythical The Man. Because to a very large degree, I am The Man in this case.
- Several commenters have suggested the “tip jar” model, where motivated viewers could contribute to the filmmaker. I don’t know of any successful examples of this form of micro-patronage, but I’d happily be proven wrong. ↩
- And legally worldwide. Given the dominance of American media, it’s especially frustrating that cinephiles in Australia and other markets have to queue at the back of the line for movies they’ve seen promoted 12 months earlier. ↩
Articles
January 17th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
The problem you bring up for the German fan comes up here, too. It’s a big problem when people who want to see a film or TV show or own some music can’t because of distribution deals or other reasons. Some countries’ copyright laws allow people to pay a fair market price to access those entertainments. So (and I don’t know if German law supports this) Hans could download the torrent of The Nines and then only be compelled to pay a reasonable price to Sony for it.
Instead, we get massive piracy trials.
A couple of years ago, I’d have paid quite a reasonable price to have a legal copy of the pilot of Global Frequency, but WB didn’t want it to see the light of day. So instead of getting my hard-earned money for a legal copy, or getting my money later for an illicit copy, they earned nothing from me.
Note: of course, I did not download a copy. That would be a crime and I do not commit crimes. I did see a homeless man watching a bootleg on a laptop once and watched over his shoulders, though.
January 17th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
You’d think by now (and how I wish I were clever enough to be this inventive) that there’d be some chip embedded in DVDs that could only be activated by a like system embedded into the transmittal device, be it a DVD player, internet download (for which a one use code would be needed), or on TV (or what is now Tv) and that couldn’t be re-recorded or transmitted elsewhere.
Piracy is tough. I’m always amazed to learn that stealing [by some people] an author’s work (be it music, book, or tv/fim), by whatever means, isn’t thought of as theft but is instead a right of free use (it’s there, I can use it to my benefit) or as a gift of some sort.
January 17th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Anyone else get excited when you see your country mentioned by celebrities and the media? No?
I do think that in trying to stop movie piracy, the corporations and the government have gotten it all wrong. They are targeting the individual who downloads or buys DVDs off the street. The main thrust of every ad that I see seems to be ‘Piracy is a Crime’.
Well, duh. Everyone knows that it is technically illegal. What I find amazing is that they show how easy it is to get a movie illegally. There are guys selling it on the street. Click a few times and you can download a movie (with a nice big bar that tells you how long it has got to go). Why dont they go after the people who make the bootlegs, the people who rip a DVD in a production house?
January 17th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
the micropayments thing sounds a lot like the recent Radiohead experiment in music. They offerered it online and you could pay anything you liked – even nothing.
They then later released the albulm physically and it got to number one still.
They said something along the lines that if somebody was going to put it up on the Internet it may as well be them.
January 17th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
“Several commenters have suggested the “tip jarâ€? model, where motivated viewers could contribute to the filmmaker. I don’t know of any successful examples of this form of micro-patronage, but I’d happily be proven wrong.”
The only major recent example of this comes from Radiohead, who put their latest album up for download and told everyone to pay whatever they wanted, if anything. Since they weren’t under contract with any labels, they were pretty much free to do whatever they wanted.
They haven’t released total dollars collected from digital distribution, but they DID comment that they had 1.2 million “paid” downloads, and the album reached #1 in both the US and UK when it was released in stores. And this is all while the album was totally available for download at no cost.
Of course, this is from a huge, established band, and I’m sure many people saw it as an opportunity to make a statement about something they believe in. But, well…that’s what proper fans do. Support that which they believe in. More info about that album at good ol’ wikipedia.
January 17th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Wasn’t Radiohead’s most recent album released under a successful tip jar business model? (Of course, they could only make a lot of money after years of building their fan base through releasing music via a record company.)
January 17th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Ha ha. Too slow for me. Well done, Phoenix.
January 17th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
You say you’d like to be proven wrong about the tip jar. Say we were to send you some money then download the nines, where could we send this money? I think its a fantastic idea.
January 17th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
John, a few things you mentioned also brought musical artists to mind. Saul Williams and Trent Reznor released Saul’s record in a variety of formats for a flat $5 fee.
See how they did it here: http://niggytardust.com/saulwilliams/emailpagepaid
Your idea about releasing The Nines in a low-res version for filmmakers to try their hand at editing also reminds me of something Reznor related. He’s created a site where users can download create their own song remixes, and also upload them for other users to listen to and comment upon. Check that out here: http://remix.nin.com/
You’re probably already aware of these, but I thought I’d pass them along in case they’re helpful in any way.
January 17th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
John, I like your attitude around this issue, I have heard it from some musicians but this is the first time I have heard from a filmmaker, It is very commendable and very forward thinking which makes it even more amazing within an an industry that could not be described as such!
I am a Radiohead fan so was really eager to see how their experiment panned out, in case anyone is not sure what they did they put their brand new album on their website and told people they can download it for free if they wanted. They also had a form that you could fill in if you wanted to pay something for it, I actually paid $10 for it, which I thought was fair, it was certainly more than what the band would have got If I had bought a CD of it in the shop – which really was the whole point. Of course many people never paid a penny which I guess is a matter for their own conscience but many people did and I think the average price ended up being around the $10 mark, Radiohead made something around $2.5 from this experiment in the end and as previous posters said when the CD was released it still got to number 1.
I can see an experiment like this working in film too, all we need is a forward thinking and dynamic director/producer to pull something together.
January 17th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Jake Hollywood: There is such a thing in DVDs. Doesn’t work very well, obviously. That kind of technology will never work well. Of course, it a technological solution to a mostly social problem, so even if the technology were perfect, it wouldn’t really solve the issue to everyone’s satisfaction.
I’m surprised no one has speciously tied this all to the strike. I have some thoughts, but I worry that they’re excessively tangential so I’ll not repeat them here.
For what it’s worth, John, I think your position is eminently reasonable and clearly said. I don’t think that there is anyone except the extremists on both sides who would wholeheartedly disagree.
January 17th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
On patronage: While I don’t know if this is a successful “tip-jar” model, a website called “jamendo” has music on it that is free. I found this website by hearing a song, finding out who the song was by, googling the artist’s name, and then realizing his entire discography was free-to-download online. Why? Cause he doesn’t make his music for profit, it would seem. Jamendo.com seems to specialize in letting musicians get their music heard for free. However, there is a ‘donations’ page for each artist where listeners can donate money. Like I said, I’m not sure if the artist is making a sufficient amount of money, but people are definately donating.
January 17th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
I love the idea of releasing the source material to The Nines. I know I’d want to take a crack at editing it.
If you convince Sony to do it for your film, you should encourage them to consider a similar concept for music (assuming they haven’t already). It seems like a neat idea to be able to come up with your own mix of your favorite tune, and even add things to it, like more cowbell for example… :-)
If companies do agree to start releasing source material for remixing as you describe, I suppose the question would then become, once you have this way cool remix of the song (or film), what could you really do with it? Would you be OK with people posting re-cuts of The Nines for download?
January 17th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
As a movie lover, I try to keep updated, and since most decent movies are made in the U.S., I visit American websites for the most recent information about new productions (I live in the Netherlands).
The problem with that is that I generally know about the movies, and have seen the trailers, several months before they are released in my neck of the woods. If I find a movie I like, then yes, chances are I’ll download it (which, coincidentally, is not illegal in the Netherlands — uploading is), even if it is a crappy camcorder version, just to satisfy my curiosity about the finished product.
Yes, I did download The Nines, because I’ve been reading this blog since before production started, and I really wanted to see the finished product. With no known release date for my area, this was the only option. I’ve seen it now, and I like it, and I want to have it. I’ll probably forget it for now, until I happen to see the DVD in stores, or ads on TV, and then I’ll pick up an original copy.
For some reason I don’t usually burn movies to disc. Most movies (unless they really make an impression) I’ll only watch once or twice, and I have a big enough computer screen for that, then I delete them. And besides, why waste a disc on a camcorder version, when the original DVD has far better quality and tons of interesting extras? Yes, you can also download entire DVDs, but the quality is usually compromised (or special features are removed) to be able to fit the download onto a single-layer disc. And if I have a movie on disc, it’s to watch it on my TV, and then I prefer the best possible quality.
This reply turned out a lot longer than I intended, my apologies for that. I just felt the need to justify the downloader-side of things a bit :-)
January 17th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
John, I agree counterfeit discs are still a big problem. But I was in China last year and spent a lot of time with some college students there. They’d seen every new movie going it seemed, and all of them illegally from downloads. That’s a big, big market that is getting used to not paying to see movies.
Not that that’s anything new in China. They’ve been ripping off everything from Adidas shoes to CDs for years. As one of the students boasted to me, China is “number one” in the world for fakes.
January 17th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Being from the UK, an avid reader of John’s blog and having missed the Nines on its limited release in my country, I can see why someone could be very tempted to view a torrent release of the movie. Not that I would condone such a thing, of course. However, if I was, say, at a friends house for instance and view the said copy of the movie, I would still purchase the DVD of the film when it’s finally released. Because I like to have films with their artwork on my shelf.
That brings me onto another point, I think studios have to realise, not everyone can get to the movies all the time and start to release DVDs earlier. People with kids or people like me who spend a lot of time in the pub would benefit. DVDs should be released much closer to the cinema release date, or even simultaneously. I know this may impact cinema attendance, but the studios didn’t seem to mind wiping out video rental stores when they started to release sale copy DVDs at the same time as rental copies.
It’d also mean I wouldn’t have to watch films with a bunch of ignorant chavs, talking, texting and throwing popcorn. And with movies on the shelf in-store, others may feel less compelled to download cinema copies, with views obstructed by folks nipping to the toilets and just buy a good one.
January 17th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
“Ross Pruden”? Nice try, Joss Whedon. Next time, put a little more effort into concocting an alias.
January 17th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Scott from australia… yes.. i get excited too…
the new apple movies thing sounds good… but it will most likely have the same limitations other have pointed out about the itunes episodes of tv shows… no one out of the US can use it…
I can see how legally selling movies and shows online cuts into profits from TV networks and distributors thru other countries… i cant see this getting worked out anytime soon…
I remember i read a thing on how firefly fans were trying to get people to pledge money to joss weadon for another season of firefly, that would be essentially privately funded (by fans) and distributed… sounds pipe-dreamish, but its all the companies and formalities that stop online distribution becoming legally attainable…
If radiohead had 1.2 million downloads, my guess is that they probably made as much or more as they normally would, considering the low amount artists get for CD sales…
January 17th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Releasing the source files so students could edit the footage would be AMAZING! Please do everything you can to make that a reality.
January 17th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
To jump on the tip jar bandwagon, I recently discovered this artist here I took note of the “already stole it?” portion as a great method of recouping a pirated loss. No you won’t get everyone to donate.. but you will get people to pay.
In response to Jake Hollywood’s comment. First, I’m on the side of paying for things you consume. But, I’m also in the camp of ‘I’d like to do anything I want with the things that I’ve purchased’. I realize that if consumers are allowed to copy their DVD’s to their computers and then stream them to their portable devices etc.(for private viewing) that some people will use that same technology to pirate. So the real question is. How do we as a society allow fair use (I’m using the term ‘fair use’ not in the classical sense here.) of content while limiting unfair use like copying a movie and distributing it to the masses?
Personally I think that the good of allowing fair use outweighs trying to lock everything down. And, clearly the ‘locking things down’ methodology doesn’t work. Which brings us nicely back around to the discussion of alternative business models. I personally believe Radiohead’s experiment is right on track for where media creators have to go in business. Yes there will be ’shrinkage’ just like in a typical brick and mortar storefront. But by and large the majority of people will pay for what they consume.
January 17th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
On the tip jar: it works just barely enough (a handful of contributors) to imply there might be something there, but the reality is that this sooooooo doesn’t work. Perhaps I didn’t phrase it elegantly enough, but I basically got a lot of grouch mail for asking for donations from those who’d found HD for Indies useful, saying it was unprofessional, begging, etc.
Tip jar does not, and will not, work.
Period.
Would require major societal change in attitude, not forthcoming. People expect information coming over the internet to be free for the most part.
File this one under “See this scar here? That’s why I don’t do that anymore.”
-mike
January 17th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
I don’t usually go out of my way to shine anyone’s shoes. I don’t always agree with John August. Sometimes I read John’s stuff, and I sort-of agree with him. Other times I read John’s stuff and definitely agree with him. And sometimes I read John’s stuff and think man, you’re fucking cool.
January 17th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
I’m not so sure the post-release tip jar works so well – the Radiohead example worked well, I believe, because it was an up-front thing.
I think if it’s available to purchase or rent at a reasonable price online people will do it if it’s more convenient than downloading it via Bittorrent. iTunes proved that amply. People who aren’t going to pay anyway aren’t going to pay anyway. It’s all about loss of potential revenues, not actual, if you see what I mean.
I’m English but I live in Germany. So if I go to the cinema I have to watch films dubbed in German – they don’t do subtitles here. The same is true of TV. Sure I can get the DVD 6 or 9 months later and watch in English, but it essentially means I don’t go to the cinema anymore. With TV it’s even worse because a lot of UK shows (especially comedy) don’t even make it here and if they do they’re dubbed. Ironically I have to drive over the border to France to watch cinema in English (with subtitles).
I would happily buy shows off of iTunes, but the region slicing and controls mean I can’t. If you sold The Nines as a download off of your site, I’d buy it too. Sure it would get out there in the end on Bittorrent (which is why DRM is so daft – once one cracked copy is out there, it’s useless), but for the convenience and the good conscience and knowing that I was paying you rather than the studio, which was also part of the Radiohead success, I’d go to the source.
January 18th, 2008 at 1:03 am
I´m in Germany as well, and indeed there´s no way to watch ´The Nines` without downloading it or visiting one of those TV/Movie linkfarms.
The thing with international rights and distribution is a tricky one. More than once I´ve spent hours in front of my computer, surfing the American iTunes store, browsing all the stuff that I can´t get here. And I literally want to scream “Hey folks, I´m here, I have money to spend, I´m one of those who are not interested at all in dealing with torrent stuff – so give me something to work with, please”.
They never hear me. Instead, they dub movies for the German market. Trust me – “Fantastic Four” may not be arthouse stuff, but once you´ve seen it in German – along with the ludicrously dubbed versions of Heroes, Prison Break or Battlestar Galactica – hell, you´ll be grateful to finally see it in English a couple of months later. Just to make this clear: Admiral Adama has the same German voice Mr. Sheffield has in “The Nanny”. And when you remember Will Smiths German voice in “I am Legend” from somewhere – try to watch the dubbed version of “Family Guy”. He´s Peter. ´Nuff said.
I´m here. I´m waiting. I´m willing to pay. I´m honest. Hell, I don´t even have a grudge against any studios / producers / companies because they are so big and bad and bold. I just want content, I want it without a non-interruptable “YOU WOULDN’T STEAL A HANDBAG” ad, I want it as fast as possible. That pretty much sums it up.
This being said, “The Nines” is on my wishlist. And whenever it comes out on DVD here – I´ll buy it. But torrents? Not a chance in hell.
January 18th, 2008 at 4:05 am
“Tip jars” work all the time for open source/free software; Winamp and the official Bittorrent client all were buoyed originally by donations.
Apologies to Mike Curtis that this method didn’t work for his blog, but there are successful examples.
January 18th, 2008 at 6:23 am
@JakeHollywood:
As people have said, DVDs do have something like this. It got cracked. Piracy is not a technology problem, it’s a people problem, and unsolvable. Some people will simply never pay to see your movie, but will jump on a free way to do so.
Like John said, the way forward is to make it as easy as possible for everyone in the world to pay a reasonable fee to see your movie. The internet is here. It lets us get exactly what we want, within a couple of minutes, for not very much money. That’s the baseline standard now. Anything less than that won’t be successful.
January 18th, 2008 at 6:49 am
I really enjoyed this blog post and the commentary. I linked to the post with a quote and added some commentary. For my picture of John, I thought of the caption, “How Do I Pay For This?”, instead, I chose “It’s Just A Wig”. I hope posting a link is acceptable: http://pwnership.com/sinisterly-he-declared-i-want-to-get-paid/
January 18th, 2008 at 8:58 am
I saw the original TorrentFreak article about your first blog post when it was published earlier on in the week and as I’d never even heard of The Nines I figured I’d have a look at it as your description of it intrigued me. I watched it the other night and I was impressed. So I’ve bought it (see http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/4383/91cq0.jpg and http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/3158/92uz8.jpg) after much looking for it. You see, we here in that backwater country known as Britain are being shafted as we always are. The version we get is just the film and nothing else. All those special features you talk about don’t exist anywhere else outside of America. No commentaries, no easter eggs, nothing. Hell, we don’t even get those golden tickets. Oh and our version costs more than the imported American version I’ve ended up buying. Which is nice. Especially as its released two months earlier than our version.
January 18th, 2008 at 9:28 am
Just curious, if you’re in Germany (or another country), couldn’t you just order the DVD from Amazon in the US or another country that’s selling the Nines?
THAT IS, if the DVD was regionless, then anyone in any territory would be able to get their hands on it, assuming the shipping costs weren’t too insane. This is something the studios should at least consider on smaller titles with limited availability.
At least people who are willing to plunk down some cash would be able to access it. (I don’t think it’d be fair to expect them to have to buy an outside region DVD player though.)
January 18th, 2008 at 10:03 am
There is precedent to a tip jar model functioning, albeit poorly. The webcomic Penny Arcade (www.penny-arcade.com) spent at least a year operating under a ‘donation only’ format. It worked, barely, because PA has millions of dedicated, loyal readers. Out of those millions they were able to get a few thousand dollars a month, in return for little extras like artwork and other online goodies.
They eventually brought on a proper business manager, and started using those dedicated readers as a tool to attract appropriate advertisers and to create an annual games convention in Seattle. Now they do very well (offices, staff of like 5 or 6 people, etc.), and are one of the few huge success stories of the webcomic world…all because they GOT AWAY from the tip jar model and took advantage of the close creator-audience relationship the internet allows.
Tapping into that relationship is one of the huge hidden gold mines of the internet, and the people that are able to discover a (financially sustainable) way of delivering quality entertainment in this new medium are going to be handsomely rewarded.
January 18th, 2008 at 10:14 am
John, I think your idea of providing the raw footage from your film for others to re-edit is a great idea. If you’re interesting in seeing how someone else has already done this, check out the website for Canadian filmmaker Bruce McDonald’s The Tracey Fragments starring Ellen Page. http://www.thetraceyfragments.com/ Click on “Re-Fragmented”. They’re even running a contest to find the best re-edit (contest closes at the end of January).
As for the tip jar idea, everyone has already mentioned Radiohead’s recent successful attempt. Another model to check out is that of Radio Paradise (http://www.radioparadise.com/), a popular internet radio station. Their stream is provided for free to anyone who wants to listen and they don’t play any commercials. They are entirely listener supported and from what I can tell make a nice living from it. I don’t know how this model could be applied to films, but I do find it pretty amazing that they can keep their business going by simply allowing their listeners to pay whatever amount they think the service is worth.
January 18th, 2008 at 11:48 am
Yeah the “Radiohead model” worked superbly for Radiohead, but they commanded the interest and attention of the Music World in the weeks prior to its unveiling.
Other artists (such as the emerging Saul Williams) found the model didn’t work for them. At all.
Radiohead were lucky because their fanbase were giving them a big, loyal “Thank you!” by paying. A loyalty built upon a stellar back-catalogue.
Alas! John is but an emerging directorial talent.
The Radiohead model could be more readily applied to Movies by say, Spielberg’s forthcoming Indiana Jones sequel.
Here we have a career and franchise built upon years of admiration and acclaim (see Radiohead).
Imagine if Indy4 was released online by the following method…
-Low Def…tip jar(streaming from an exclusive server carrying advertising) -High Def…$5 -Limited edition numbered DVD package with special features…$30
January 18th, 2008 at 11:52 am
I can see how the “tip jar” thing wouldn’t go over well with the studios, or with other people who worked on the project.
When the studio spends millions financing a film and releasing it, would they be happy to see people giving money directly to one of the talent? Especially if it was happening under the guise of “hey, I pirated your movie, but I wanted you to make some money on my view…”? And especially if it was a movie that didn’t make a profit? If someone did that, I could see studios making a claim on some or all of that money coming in.
On the other hand, if it was less of a “tip jar” and instead was a T-shirt or some other product…
Along the “tip jar” lines, what I’d really like to know is which way of watching a movie makes the most money for the talent. It sounds like rentals put nothing in the writer’s pocket. Sales means four cents. Paid download rental or sale actually seems better than something like Netflix, although that number is pathetically low. Streamed download (with or without ads) is zero again.
It would be interesting to read about how much the writer makes from each possible way the viewer can see a movie or TV show, both in terms of pure curiosity as well as being able to actively make a choice intended to help the talent as much as possible.
Obviously, it’s all going to change once there’s a contract (soon, now that the DGA has an agreement?), but once things are figured out, I’d love to read a breakdown along those lines.
January 18th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
digital has changed the way people think about things that were once ‘analog only’…30 years ago you couldn’t see your favorite films AT ALL, unless they were re-released (extremely rare) or were shown on TV – what? once a year? I’m all in favor of people being fairly compensated for their work, and downloaded films do have an impact on that compensation (I have a huge problem with the way the studios are claiming that, essentially, every instance of a downloaded film represents the loss of revenue…that’s just not true), however film (and music) when viewed as a ‘product’ are unique in that it is impossible to get a refund. If I buy a toaster and take it home, use it, then find that it doesn’t suit my needs (as opposed to being broken) I can take it back to the store and get my money back, you can’t do this with a DVD. The only lasting solution is an ‘on demand’ system for which you pay a monthly fee…any song, any movie, at any time you want and as often as you want. No manufacturing, no packaging and a reduction (possibly a huge reduction) in piracy.
January 18th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Xamm (#28): Are you sure that we’re not going to get any special features over here? Both Amazon.com and Amazon.co.uk both say that it’s 1-disc, so we’re definitely not losing out there (it’d be pretty shitty to get a 0-disc version ;-) ). .co.uk has an empty “DVD Features” section, but it doesn’t say “None”. .com doesn’t even appear to have this field. Would it really make sense for them (them being Optimum Home Entertainment, who are releasing it in the UK) to re-design the menus in order to remove the special features?
I’m sure John can confirm either way on this, but if they aren’t having any special features over here, it’ll piss me off enough to buy the US version, and then figure out how to rip it and then re-burn it as a region-free DVD, however hard that may be.
January 18th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Well I checked Play and 101-CD. Neither mention special features. Also note the cover art on Play (which it does say can could change I admit) mentions nothing about being a special edition as the one just to the right of this very page does. Also note the different play lengths of the two versions listed on Amazon.
January 18th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
First saw THE MATRIX on one of those bootlegs filmed from the back of a theater. A friend of mind had handed to me saying “You’ve GOT to see this!”.
Well I did, and was so impressed I drove nearly an hour to see it in a real theater. The following weekend I dragged my parents out of the house to see it, and then spread the word to anyone who’d listen to go see it.
When it came out on DVD I pre-ordered it. Better quality, and I HAD to hear the commentary tracks.
BATTLESTAR GALACTICA was a TV show I’d seen as a kid, and absolutely HATED. Rather than “go off” on just how horrible I thought that show was, lets just say a trip to the dentist would be higher on my personal wish list than watching the original BSG.
As you might expect, all the rave reviews and word of mouth about Ron Moore’s remake fell on very deaf ears in my case. I just figured – “Hey, one man’s great entertainment is the next man’s cheezy pablum right? Everybody’s entitled to their opinion, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it.”
And yeah, that’s exactly where I’m goin’ with this – somebody sent me a bootleg torrent of the mini-series, that blew me away, and that very Saturday afternoon I ran out and bought, not only the mini-series, but the first season DVD set, and I’ve been hopelessly hooked on that show ever since.
For me, torrent bootlegs, and bootlegs in general, are a great way to get me to watch something that for whatever reason, rotten marketing, not my normal cuppa, etc., I would never pay a dime to so much as take a chance on normally.
And I’ll admit, 90% of the time I’ll lose interest and give up even on the bootleg in the first 15 minutes. But bootlegs are a great way to get me to give a story 15 minutes when I otherwise wouldn’t give ‘em so much as a glance.
EVERYTIME, however, that I’ve wound up watching if bootleg all the way through, I wind up payin’ the piper his legal due (by way of buyin’ a ticket, a DVD, and often both), and feeling glad I did.
Bootlegs can be a hell of an effective marketing tool. I’ve often wondered how long it’ll be before somebody intentionally “leaks” a torrent copy of the first 15 minutes of their film the way books often offer the first 10 pages for free in various online forums.
January 18th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Goldfarb, are you referring to Sattellite TV packages?
January 18th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
The most successful brazilian movie of 2007 was “Tropa de Elite” http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0861739/ Maybe a couple of months before the theatrical release the illegal-pirate version appears on the internet, even on YouTube you can watch the whole movie splited in several blocks of video. Again, the pirate version appears not just before the DVD version, but before the theatrical release.
Many viewers suspects that the illegal versions are there because the producers put it there (but the producers never admitted), meanwhile more and more people watch the movie, and heard about (in Brazil getting people to know that you have made a film is already a victory). So when the movie finally was released, people who have already watched the movie wanted to watch it again, in the theaters, and the ones who have heard about wanted to watch it too. And so the movie was a big hit. Polemic social theme and free access create a huge fuzz in the media and made “Tropa de Elite” the most viewed brazilian movie of 2007.
January 18th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
John, this is probably one of the most well reasoned commentaries on internet piracy that I’ve read. No wonder that it comes from a filmmaker. As a filmmaker myself, I can only dream that people are so eager to see my film that it shows up on Pirate Bay. Obviously, I’d prefer they pay for it, but if they were never going to pay anyway (either they were going to download it for free or simply not bother) then it doesn’t really count as a lost sale/rental. But it does count as one more pair of eyeballs that has seen your work.
January 18th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
I just watched the Nines after downloading it. I loved it. I’m a Dutch guy living in Belgium, and their is no other way for me to see this movie. I do however pledge that I will buy this movie when it comes out on DVD and/or Blue-ray. If you put some payment option on your site I will be willing to pay you directly.
That said, I just want to remark that I think it is ridiculous that given our current technology, we still can’t simply pay, download and watch movies legally.
Btw, we don’t need DRM. DVD’s DRM has been broken since forever and did that kill the industry? Just let people download movies for a price. 5 bucks for descent quality, 15 bucks for HD or something. Try it for one freaking movie and see if that works.
January 18th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
So I came across this movie through the internet, I’ll admit it. I’ve got my reasons but I won’t share them as I don’t feel I’d be doing anyone a benefit by trying to justify piracy.
That being said, my boyfriend and I loved this film. I’m going to buy the DVD, I just wanted to say thank you for creating something so uplifting, refreshing, and eye-opening.
January 19th, 2008 at 1:58 am
I’m disappointed with the DVD cover art. I thought the poster with Ryan tying the bracelet would have been perfect for it.
My 2 cents
PS: I have watched the film and will buy it on DVD when it’s released here in North America.
January 19th, 2008 at 4:01 am
Hey, just wanted to say that I live in the UK and saw The Nines on import DVD yesterday. After having read the script on your blog it was cool to finally see it, I must say I really enjoyed it. Well done dude. Can’t wait till you do more stuff.
January 19th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
I first heard about this movie a while back and was interested in seeing it. Unfortunately, I had no way of seeing it in theaters, so I downloaded it and watched it. It’s excellent, by the way. Anyway, because I watched The Nines and enjoyed it I’m now going to purchase the DVD. I wouldn’t have bought it if I didn’t know I would like it.
What I’m trying to say is that, in this case, BitTorrent has given you a sale instead of taking one away.
January 19th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
@DougJ If you’re not being ironic, I’m flattered you think my name is an alias for Joss Wheadon. It’s really not, though. Check out my blog, which I’ve had since 2005. I’m also on a bunch of social networks, too.
@everyone Superb discussion. Has anyone seen the lecture by Mark Pesce called, “Piracy Is Good? How Battlestar Galactica killed TV”? Very enlightening stuff. You can see it on Google here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1720068211869162779 and read a written version here: http://www.mindjack.com/feature/piracy051305.html
January 20th, 2008 at 1:25 am
So am i going to be the first one to admit that i downloaded this film? I am from the UK and The Nines had a very limited release and i never got to see it. Sure, i could have waited for it to be released and bought it, sure, i could even waited and rented it, but i desperately wanted to see this film, because i truly love every inch of John’s work. What is my defense? I would very rarely pay for something that i haven’t seen before(Obviously, cinema is the exception, but i have an unlimited card, only £15 a month, about the same as a regular DVD). This isn’t the only film i have downloaded, no, i am a regular torrent user, but if i watch a film i do like, a lot, i will on most occasions buy it. As i will do with the Nines. Whats better, i can now watch it over and over and over, all before the DVD release and get even more joy/happiness out of it. I will also continue to cry at the end, as i did when i first saw it. Is it so bad that i can rip a copy for friends , who would usually borrow it of me only on my recommendation, earning Mr August no extra dollars, as i don’t pay him for the rights to loan it. You do realise that lending a friend a DVD is technically illegal right? Check out the disc, it clearly states that it is illegal to lend the disc with out permission. I understand that it really only applies to rental chains, or does it. My friends don’t contribute to the price of my dvds, to the distributor or directors and writers. They all get to see it for free. But what if i lend my copy to a friend and he lends it to a friend, and he makes a few copies for friends and soon everyone loves it, so much, that when it’s released, they all go and buy it, just to get some extra insight to this film from possible commentaries. Anyway, let me just say what i wanted to say, i loved this film, it was worth breaking the law for…..wait….i borrowed this of a friend, he lent it to me.
January 20th, 2008 at 7:35 am
@46 Ross,
Haven’t seen the lecture myself, but know the story of how the initial UK Sky One broadcasts were bootlegged to the States and how that created a good word of mouth and a buzz for the show in America when it premiered later.
January 20th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
What I’m unclear about is how Bit Torrent can help the less-than-great films. Sure, Bit Torrent will always help shows like BSG because that’s just great drama—one of the best—and thus lends itself to be watched repeatedly. But what if your film is only average, something most people will only watch once? Eli Roth is furious that Eastern European theatrical releases of Hostel: Part 2 were cancelled because pirated DVDs were everywhere. In Brazil, knock-off DVD were going for less than a quarter. And let’s not even talk about China.
It’s one thing to sample 5, 10, 20 minutes via Bit Torrent, but quite another to “sample” an entire film you are only going to watch once—that means lost income to the filmmaker, which is not a long-term solution. I’m a fan of Pesce’s solution—embracing piracy by releasing a free version with paid advertising overlays in the corners. The studios are already posting an entire season’s episodes online for free for 26 weeks, so releasing a free version with advertising is not too far a stretch. (NB: That does not mean I’m a fan of advertising… it’s a horrible idea to gratuitously embed advertising in storylines or dialog.)
January 20th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
I had watched the trailer for The Nines via the Apple Quicktime trailer site a while back and had been looking forward to seeing the movie in the theater. Unfortunately it never played in theaters in Madison, Wisconsin that I am aware of. Given this, I would not feel too bad about downloading the film in order to watch it and would be more than happy to send what would have been my cost of theater admission directly to John, or any other filmmaker.
In response to post 49 by Ross Pruden ” but quite another to “sampleâ€? an entire film you are only going to watch once—that means lost income to the filmmaker”. This is making the assumption that anyone who downloads and views the film once would have otherwise paid to see the film, which I don’t think is going to be the case. When considering the costs of piracy you also need to take into account the benefit of word of mouth marketing that may be gained. If someone were to download a film they would not have otherwise paid to see, unexpectedly enjoys the film and ends up recommending it to friends and family, you may have just gained additional viewers who would not have otherwise watched the film.
An example of this would be the recent experiment by Trent Reznor and Saul Williams that previous posters have mentioned. I had never heard of Saul and had never heard his music, but am a fan of Nine Inch Nails. When I saw that an album produced by Trent Reznor was being released for free download I decided to check it out. I did not choose to pay the five dollar optional purchase price as I was not sure if I’d like the music or not. After listening to the album and realizing that I did like it quite a bit I went back to the website and paid my five dollars. I realize that my five dollars is not going to make anyone rich, but besides the purchase price they’ve also succeeded in making me aware of Saul Williams. If he were to tour I’d pay to see the show, and when his next album comes out I will be sure to check it out.
That said, I do not agree at all with the mass produced bootleg piracy distribution that you brought up. I think this is theft on a very large scale basis, whereas I would liken file sharing more so to someone lending a DVD or CD to a friend because it is something they enjoy and want someone else to experience. I think file sharing is more complicated that a simple breakdown to 10,000 copies downloaded x 20 dollar DVD purchase price = 200,000 dollars in lost revenue.
January 20th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
I apologize for the double post but this is a modified version of my posting above that I was unable to edit within the time limit allowed for modifications, therefore I had to re-post:
I had watched the trailer for The Nines via the Apple Quicktime trailer site a while back and had been looking forward to seeing the movie in the theater. Unfortunately it never played in theaters in Madison, Wisconsin that I am aware of. Given this, I would not feel too bad about downloading the film in order to watch it and would be more than happy to send what would have been my cost of theater admission directly to John, or any other filmmaker given a similar situation.
In response to post 49 by Ross Pruden ” but quite another to “sampleâ€? an entire film you are only going to watch once—that means lost income to the filmmaker”. This is making the assumption that anyone who downloads and views the film once would have otherwise paid to see the film, which I don’t think is going to be the case. When considering the costs of piracy you also need to take into account the benefit of word of mouth marketing that may be gained. If someone were to download a film they would not have otherwise paid to see, unexpectedly enjoys the film and ends up recommending it to friends and family, you may have just gained additional viewers who would not have otherwise watched the film.
An example of this would be the recent experiment by Trent Reznor and Saul Williams that previous posters have mentioned. I had never heard of Saul and had never heard his music, but am a fan of Nine Inch Nails. When I saw that an album produced by Trent Reznor was being released for free download I decided to check it out. I did not choose to pay the five dollar optional purchase price as I was not sure if I’d like the music or not. After listening to the album and realizing that I did like it quite a bit I went back to the website and paid my five dollars. I realize that my five dollars is not going to make anyone rich, but besides the purchase price they’ve also succeeded in making me aware of Saul Williams. If he were to tour I’d pay to see the show, and when his next album comes out I will be sure to check it out.
Similarly, until hearing about John’s blog regarding The Nines being leaked to bittorrent, I was not familiar with his work. It wasn’t until I looked at his website that I realized I had enjoyed his previous works, which made me more interested in seeing The Nines, which I had already been looking forward to. So, due to the word of mouth marketing that occurred because of the distribution of The Nines I will pay closer attention to John’s future work. I respect his willingness to participate in the digital world by considering a release of the source material for The Nines, and also respect him as an artist given that he is obviously more interested in making a film that people will see and hopefully enjoy rather than simply getting a paycheck (of course I’m not at all saying that artists shouldn’t expect to get paid for their work). Therefore I would be more than happy to look for, pay for, and recommend John’s work in the future.
That said, I do not agree at all with the mass produced bootleg piracy distribution that you brought up. I think this is theft on a very large scale basis, whereas I would liken file sharing more so to someone lending a DVD or CD to a friend because it is something they enjoy and want someone else to experience. I just think file sharing is more complicated than a simple breakdown to 10,000 copies downloaded x 20 dollar DVD purchase price = 200,000 dollars in lost revenue.
January 21st, 2008 at 6:30 am
Hey John,
As an Australian I’m frustrated by the fact that I first heard about the Nines a year or so ago, and waited with baited breath for news on your blog of an Australian distribution only for there to be none.
Now, I’m asking you’re opinion as the copyright holder: would you recommend I buy the NTSC DVD off amazon and play the (inferior) non-PAL format on my computer (unfortunately I don’t have a dual format DVD player). Will there be a PAL version in the near future? If not, will there ever be an Australian release in cinemas? If there will be no PAL DVD or Australian release I may just torrent it as I am very eager to see it.
Toby
P.S. PLEASE release raw footage, I would love to play around with it in FCP. P.P.S. sorry if this comment doesn’t make much sense, I just got off a 12 hour flight to find this blog post.
January 21st, 2008 at 9:31 am
@Carlo – not really…as things stand right now there are no services (that I know of) that allow you to simply pay a fee and watch what you want…if I (in Canada) want a movie channel I have to get it in a ‘package’ with a bunch of crap that I don’t want and will never watch..there was a recent FCC thingy about this – basically no ‘a la carte’…
January 21st, 2008 at 9:37 am
“What I’m unclear about is how Bit Torrent can help the less-than-great films.”
It probably doesn’t. But if a film is weak, not much will help it. Should we really feel bad if mediocre films aren’t financially rewarded?
January 21st, 2008 at 11:10 am
Lots of gret comments in here, and a great post.
I’ve been reading yyou blog for about a year and a half. I’ve been anxiously awaiting an opprtunity to see The Nines. It never came to Edmonton, Alberta. I checked about 2 months ago on torrent sites to see if I could download it (I was in a major mood to watch it). Since it’s so close to DVD release now I’ll just buy it and watch it then… however if it wasn’t I’d download it for sure. I’m a HUGE movie fan – even working on making them myself one day – and I would download it because I want to see it ASAP.
As for the re-cutting possibility – that would be one of the best things ever for me. I’ve discussed with friends that I wish that was available for me to do. Because I’d love to be able to understand what it’s like cutting a feature together (rather than just the shorts we make).
So if it happens, I will be the first to download it. I even suggest you make a sing-up page so people can be informed when it’s (if it’s) available. Heck, I’ll do it for you if you’d like.
Thank you John, Shawn
January 21st, 2008 at 1:30 pm
If not for Bittorrent, I would not have even been aware your movie existed.
Now, (When the movie is released here in the US) I will be purchasing a copy.
Count that as +1 for BT advertising.
January 22nd, 2008 at 6:18 am
There’s an independent game designer named Greg Stolze who is developing a model known as the “Ransom Model.” It’s similar to the tip jar idea. Here’s a writeup about it: http://www.danielsolis.com/meatbot/ransom.html
January 22nd, 2008 at 9:09 am
@mike / #54 I did not say mediocre films—I said “less-than-great” films, e.g. somewhere between exceptional entertainment such as Battlestar: Galactica and average entertainment such as Must Like Dogs; films in this niche we really enjoy watching but don’t care to watch again. Of course I could watch BSG over and over again, so after I see the whole thing on BT, I’m going to buy a DVD of it. A film like Flags of Our Fathers, however, which is a great film, is only worth watching once. Thus, if I were to see it via BT, I would enjoy it but am not going to spend money on buying a copy of it. Perhaps that viewing will generate good word of mouth, perhaps not. We know, though, that for this one viewer, it definitely means lost income for the filmmakers.
Worse, a smaller film like Hostel: Part 2, which may be quite good, has a slim viewership—lost income can mean the death of future films like it. This is John August’s primary concern, I think, as The Nines appeals to a smarter, and thus smaller, crowd.
This brings up another angle to the issue—should we not care if mediocre films are ripped off? After all, if the filmmakers made a mediocre movie, they really don’t deserve to get any income at all, right? I mean, it’s not enough that a mediorcre film gets bad reviews, but now we should steal the light bulbs, too, right? In the real world, if your home doesn’t have an alarm, I can break into it because it’s really your own fault for not building a strong enough of a protection system? Or because you’re only somewhat popular in the neighborhood? Obviously, no. Piracy is equal to forcing authors to busk without permission… and while that helps some films, it is lethal to other films. There are already several systems in place to allow viewers to choose which films they should invest their time in, and which are a waste of time. I offer Rotten Tomatoes’ review of AVP:R as evidence.
The sad reality is, as much as everyone complains about it, piracy is not going away. The winner of the 21st century’s digital entertainment distribution wars is the person or company who finds a way to make money off of piracy. My bet is on using BT to exclusively release movies—unbelievably cheap compared to printing a hard copy of a film for a wide theatrical release—and embed paid advertising overlays. If a film gets great word of mouth and the advertiser sees their sales increase, DVDs could a wide release in retail stores, but if not, DVDs are only sold online, either via mass production or, in a worst case scenario, with print-on-demand DVDs.
January 25th, 2008 at 10:24 am
“in a worst case scenario, with print-on-demand DVDs.”
HP is doing exactly that http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/business/la-fi-hp24jan24,1,3807114.story?track=rss&ctrack=1&cset=true
January 25th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Hello, I posted a message before commending you on your position regarding torrents. I understand very well that you and the others who make films need to make a living (and it would be in our best interest if that happened too). I have just finished watching the movie and I must commend you on that, too. It was very original and well done, I particularly liked how all the parts were tied together so well.
I really hope you do well, as if this particular movie is a good representation of your talent, you certainly have much of it.
January 27th, 2008 at 11:47 am
This may have been mentioned before but I’ll take a punt and say that the very limited release and subsequent non-success of the movie (financially speaking in box office terms) means that someone could easily feel quite blase and indifferent about the film finding it’s way onto torrent. In such a case, the financial ‘hit’ of this scenario would be meaningless, if anything at all. If the film had had a much wider release, with international distribution, and therefore far more at stake, I doubt anybody could be indifferent to their work being uploaded to a torrent site ‘just as long as people get to see it’.
Just because it won’t personally affect you much ‘this time’ doesn’t mean you should be any less committed to the principle of copyright (and the theft thereof), if that is what you truly believe……
January 31st, 2008 at 7:08 am
Dear John,
I happen to be a big torrenter and uploader actually… not exactly a darling of your industry, and i’m one of those people that saw The Nines online a few weeks ago. In fact I “e-cinned” it with 2-3 other people and I just want you to know that we were all blown away. The film was brilliant, truly brilliant and though this may be a bit silly, one of the highest compliments I can give to a film is to buy the DVD. I already had the intention to do so after viewing the film, despite having a high quality sitting on my hard drive, and your posts have made that decision a definite. In fact I was linked to your blog after a friend I viewed it with msned me, and I am so happy he did. Rest assured, not only will I be buying this DVD, I will be recommending it to friends and family FOR PURCHASE. There will be no burning of this one for anyone as a result of your great words on an issue that has been wrongly addressed for ages. Once again, thank you for your Brilliant film and your incredible attitude.
Phara
January 31st, 2008 at 2:47 pm
I buy stuff I want to rewatch. This is why I have the Lost dvds.
If I want to rewatch the nines, or if it’s an instant classic to me, I’ll get the dvd. :)
February 13th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
John,
I must admit, that I recently watched The Nines, and yes it was a torrent. My local video rental store only had 2 copies, both of which were not available, and I do not really have the money to run out and buy it right now.
However, after having watched it and seen what an amazing film it was, I will definitely be purchasing the DVD. I am an aspiring film maker myself, and love watching the extras, especially commentaries. But mostly, I will be paying for it because it’s the right thing to do, and because you deserve to be paid for your work.