A Captain Marvel Reader
Ever since I announced that I’m writing Shazam!/Captain Marvel, I’ve gotten some great questions and comments from longtime fans of the character, many with detailed pleas to include a specific cherished piece of the mythology.
But when I tell people face-to-face that I’m writing a Captain Marvel movie, I often notice a specific micro-reaction. Their eyes go up and to the left as they try to remember, who the hell is Captain Marvel? Half the time, they come up with Captain America instead.
So, in the interest of spreading general knowledge about Captain Marvel and why he kicks ass, I thought I’d share a reading list. Don’t worry; there’s no test. In fact, consider this a gentle education (or re-education) on why some of the best writing today is inked and colored.
Getting over comic anxiety
One reason adults can be scared off from comics is that the universes in which superheroes live tend to be incredibly complicated and interconnected. It’s the same reason I haven’t started watching Battlestar Galactica — I feel like I need to catch the first few seasons on DVD.
But it’s even more bewildering than that. You can think of any comic book series (Batman, Superman, JSA) as being roughly equivalent to a television series, with each issue serving much like an episode.1 By this analogy, DC and Marvel Comics are like television networks — the difference being that all their shows cross-over constantly. Imagine if in order to follow Lost, you also had to keep up to speed with Grey’s Anatomy, Ugly Betty and According to Jim.
You’d want a guidebook. A cheat sheet.
For the DC Universe in which Captain Marvel lives, the most helpful resource I’ve found is the DC Comics Encyclopedia.2 It includes artwork and bios on pretty much every significant player (hero and villain) in the DC universe.3 Naturally, one consequence of the book’s breadth is its lack of depth. A few paragraphs can’t explain why a given character is important or relevant, and tends to overemphasize vintage characters who will never play a significant role in future storylines. (Old West gunslingers, I’m looking at you.)
Still, it’s invaluable. I’ve been paging through this book for the last two years,4 constantly discovering new connections and relationships. The term “mythology” is overused in popular culture, but it really applies to superheroes. They’re our Greek gods and demigods, and their stories are just as tangled, fascinating and unlikely.5
Getting up to speed on Captain Marvel
Captain Marvel was originally published by Fawcett Comics, and for a time outsold Superman — in fact, it was a copyright infringement lawsuit that led to Fawcett ceasing publication.6 DC Comics bought out the rights to the character in 1991, but for legal reasons can’t promote the comic book using the Captain Marvel name. From the Wikipedia entry:
Because Marvel Comics trademarked their Captain Marvel comic book during the interim between the original Captain Marvel’s Fawcett years and DC years, DC Comics is unable to promote and market their Captain Marvel/Marvel Family properties under that name. Since 1972, DC has instead used the trademark Shazam! as the title of their comic books and thus the name under which they market and promote the character. Consequently, Captain Marvel himself is sometimes erroneously referred to as “Shazam.”
A fairly classic genesis story for Captain Marvel can be found in Jerry Ordway’s The Power of Shazam! It’s semi-period and kind of Mummy-like (a lot of Egyptian tomb business), but manages to evoke a vintage feel without the vintage dullness.
While he rarely has his own series, you find Captain Marvel sprinkled throughout the DC world. He’s particularly helpful when you need someone to go head-to-head with Superman. Captain Marvel isn’t vulnerable to kryptonite, and holds up better than the Man of Steel against magic.
A good place to start is Judd Winick’s First Thunder, which posits the first real encounter between these titans, and nicely contrasts not only the two heroes but their corresponding villains, Lex Luthor and Dr. Sivana. The book smartly moves beyond the smash-and-bash action to raise interesting questions: Is it fair to put this much responsibility on a young kid? Which identity is your “secret identity?” And what would Superman have done without the Kents to watch over him?
Day of Vengeance (also by Judd Winick) features a very different Marvel/Superman matchup, as the Man of Steel finds himself possessed by the demon Eclipso. It’s a good battle, and it makes use of one of the Marvel family’s less-defined abilities: the magic thunderbolts which come when you call, “Shazam!” These thunderbolts can seemingly do anything. I keep waiting for some unhinged environmentalist to figure out he can use them to power the world’s electric grid — but at a deadly price!
If you want bleak, look no further than Mark Wald’s Kingdom Come, in which the grown up Billy Batson is basically Lex Luthor’s pawn, a superpowered goon to protect the evil mastermind from Superman. Between this and Watchmen, one is left with the impression that superheroes don’t get better with age.
JSA and Black Adam
Captain Marvel can be found in many Justice Society of America books, but an even larger presence is Black Adam, who is sometimes an ally and often an adversary. Black Adam was the original champion chosen by the wizard Shazam, and is ostensibly as powerful as The Big Red Cheese. But he’s brutal and charismatic, which is why fans love him no matter which side he’s on.
Geoff Johns, who was gracious enough to listen to my pitch before we went in to New Line, has two books featuring Black Adam to check out: Black Reign and Black Vengeance. The storylines continue into this past year’s 52.
For a one-off making good use of the Rock of Eternity (home base of Captain Marvel), check out Virtue and Vice. Featuring both the JSA and the Justice League, it’s a sampler platter of powers and what-if scenarios, but well worth a look.
Among current series, Judd Winick’s Trials of Shazam! finds Billy Batson taking over for the wizard, and overseeing the training of his replacement. Meanwhile, Jeff Smith’s Shazam!: The Monster Society of Evil is goofy and whimsical, a great alternative to the weary darkness of many comics today.
Why I’m not including the vintage collections
DC publishes hardcover anthologies that gather up decades’ worth of Captain Marvel comics. If I were writing a dissertation on the evolution of the Captain Marvel character, these would be invaluable. But I’m not. So every time I read one of these, I’m struck with the same realization I encounter trying to watch The Honeymooners or a black-and-white movie: Wow. Old things suck.
Yes, I know that will piss off the vintage comics fans, who insist that the original incarnations are the purest forms of a character. But what you quickly realize is that old-time comic books were awkwardly written, crudely drawn, and bewilderingly inconsistent with their rules. They were making up the art form as they went along, and today’s comic books are better for the accumulated wisdom.
Vintage fans are free to disagree. There’s a vast but finite amount of comic books to last them through their days.7
Beyond that, are there great books I’m leaving off, either intentionally or accidentally? Almost certainly. The comments are your chance to add to the reading list.
- Indeed, Joss Whedon is doing exactly that with his Buffy: Season 8. ↩
- There’s a similar Marvel Encyclopedia available as well. I just ordered it today, so I can’t vouch for it. ↩
- Arguably, multiverse, but I don’t want to dip my toes into that debate. Suffice to say that Captain Marvel and his compatriots used to exist on an alternate Earth (one that didn’t have Superman et al.), but got folded in due to a massive cosmic event. ↩
- True confession: It’s my bathroom reader. ↩
- Off topic, but what is the proper name for the religion that worships the classic Greek (or Roman) gods? Pan-Hellenism? That’s a church I’d like to visit. ↩
- The lawsuit seems absurd today, because the two overlapping powers — strength and flight — are pretty much ubiquitous among today’s superheroes. ↩
- My brother is big into classic rock. I once pointed out to him that everything he will ever like has already been recorded. Which seems depressing, but will undoubtedly happen to most of us. ↩
April 6th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Hi John— This makes it sound as though you’re giving us a big-screen version of the consistently unpopular “Captain Man-child” version of the character. The doofy Superman/Big hybrid that never caught on despite DC’s best efforts over 3 decades. What a shame.
DC never understood that the heart of this fantasy is a kid’s ability to become a powerful grown-up as opposed to merely having a powerful grown-up body. Well, I’d like to think they didn’t understand, but I’ve always believed that they altered the character to make him obviously inferior to their own Superman rather than for artistic or dramatic reasons.
I hope I’m wrong. I hope I’m reading your new post wrong. I know the art in modern versions is better, and the continuity better kept, but the essence of what made this character great has been missing for a long time. This new post just swept all of the enthusiasm for this film out of me.
God I hope I’m wrong.
April 6th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
I can totally vouch for the Marvel Encyclopedia. You need to know the address of the Baxter Building in Fantastic Four? Either start digging through volumes, or check the ‘pedia. Really helpful resource for the Marvel-ites.
April 6th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
What about Miracleman (aka Marvelman)? It’s not Captain Marvel, I know, but Alan Moore’s take on the Miracleman mythology explores what it really means to be an Übermensch amongst mortals and builds an amazing story around what is essentially a Captain Marvel ripoff.
April 6th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
I’m overwhelmed by the ammount of reading involved in here. However, I just got started on Kingdom Come and suspect that I’ll read all the others.
April 7th, 2007 at 11:11 am
Hoppy (#1):
I did an interview for MTV.com about the project, and the reporter asked, “Since Captain Marvel isn’t as well known as other superheroes, does that give you more latitude in changing things?”
And I answered that, honestly, no; I kind of feel more responsibility. It’s one thing to reinterpret Batman or Superman — everyone’s familiar with the traditional versions, and can tell what you’ve changed. But the first big-screen incarnation of a story tends to cement those choices in an audience’s head.
Look at Charlie and the Chocolate Factory — the Gene Wilder version made significant changes to Roald Dahl’s story, and became the de facto “real” version. So when we went back to make a moive closer to Dahl’s storyline, we got called out for daring to change “the original.”
That’s why with Captain Marvel, I think it’s important not to change things arbitrarily — which essentially is what you’re asking me to do. You’re saying, “They’ve gotten it wrong for 30 years! Do the version I want instead!”
Look, I’m glad you take Captain Marvel seriously. But please recognize that I take it seriously, too. If nothing else, I think we can both agree that Billy Batson shouldn’t travel around in a Winnebago with his uncle.
April 7th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Hi John, thanks for your response.
Just so you know, I’m a hobbyist screenwriter and I’ve been reading your columns for years now (first discovering them on IMDB). I’m a fan of your work (especially Big Fish) and your website is the first one I refer to anyone who expresses an interest in screenwriting. So when I heard you were doing Captain Marvel I was actually very excited by the idea.
You said, “…I think it’s important not to change things arbitrarily — which essentially is what you’re asking me to do.” Strangely, I felt as though I was asking you to rectify something that DC had changed arbitrarily.
I’m actually a fan who discovered the character through one of his modern DC incarnations (a mini-series from the 80s, i think, called “Shazam: A New Beginning”) which had the origin story, a Sivana/Black Adam team-up and a very dark tone). I like DC’s modernization of the Marvel Family world and more serious take on the characters, I would love to see that in that movie (despite the handle I’m using, I don’t yearn for the campy “hoppy the marvel bunny” or “tawky tawny/sunny sparkle” days or anything like that). But while I think DC improved the tone, I think they short-changed Cap himself… they neutered him (and as I mentioned earlier, I don’t think they did it for artistic purposes, I think it was to give Cap an obvious handicap that would make sure Supes reamined #1 overall).
This is a character weakness I think readers have always picked-up on, which is why as you wrote “…he rarely has his own series…” DC has tried to give him own series again and again. The character just doesn’t appeal to fans anymore at a level great enough to sustain a series. This is not a coincidence. The Man-child is cringe inducing.
The version you write WILL be the one cemented in people’s minds. You have a unique chance to strike a balance now… to take the best of what DC has contributed and the best of what they discarded and create something newer and better. At the very minimum, if you must put Billy’s mind in Cap’s body, please take care not to let him come off as the childish dimwit that DC is constantly guilty of pushing. Like I said, I’m a fan yours too, so I really want this to be good.
Furthermore, I thought you said we were never to mention that abomination of a tv show again. Mentors? Mustaches? Blinking electronic eyes that talk to cardboard gods… ugh. Can we resume the ban on this subject now please?
Finally, you think there’s any chance in hell that Marvel Comics could ever be coaxed in letting you guys call it “Captain Marvel” as opposed to Shazam? Nah… never… right?
Again, thanks for your thoughts.
April 7th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
I’m not clear on the distinction you’re trying to make. If Billy Batson /becomes/ Captain Marvel, then he /is/ a boy in a man’s body. If he’s, I dunno, switching places with CM, or something like that, then that’s too much like the Marvel Comics version of the Captain Marvel character.
Personally, I think the boy-in-a-man’s-body idea is exactly the wish fulfillment for kids, and not the “become a man” (whatever that means) idea that you seem to be advancing.
April 7th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
I’m not intimately familiar with Captain Marvel, though John has interested me. I am pretty familiar with the Alan Moore/Neil Gaiman run on Miracleman, however, and it directly addresses some of the identity issues inherent in the Marvel Family concept.
Not sure that it is relevant, but interesting none the less.
April 8th, 2007 at 12:29 am
I don’t understand what alternative Hoppy is advocating. If the character isn’t a kid’s mind in a man’s body, then what are you proposing? I think if you make them two separate personalities within the same body (except that the body can transform into an adult version) you’re basically going the “Yu-Gi-Oh!” route (Yugi and the Pharaoh). Why do that? It’s been done already.
In fact, the “super powers being a big responsibility for a young kid” has also kind of been done with “Spiderman”, so I hope, just to up the contrast, that they cast a truly YOUNG kid to play the part of Billy, otherwise it just won’t be that unusual. 13, I think, is almost too old, given how worldly kids are with the Internet these days. That kid should be like, 8 or 9 years old or something, so his major weaknesses really stem from lack of education and worldly experience, and his major strengths stem from being able to think flexibly in a way that adult bad guys really wouldn’t expect (like the kid in “Home Alone”).
And while I know John isn’t soliciting this, I will give my take on the story freely anyway (though I admit I’m not a long-time fan, and have only read the Wiki): I think it would add a little more to Billy’s situation if, for example, there were a dynamic where, as Captain Marvel, he could come close to achieving something that he always wanted as a child, but could not get. For example, if as Billy, he’s an orphan who always wanted a father, maybe he could find himself having to act in the role of a father-figure/mentor/hero to another young orphaned child in his adventures as Captain Marvel. Then he could explore the father/son relationship– albeit from a different side than he had always hoped for. I think this would create a lot of good, relevant-to-today’s-world dramatic irony. There are a lot of modern issues out there today with broken homes, lack of fathers, children having/raising other children, adults refusing to grow up (30-somethings living at home with parents, not being interested in marriage, etc.), and people all over America being super-ready to throw away rationality in order to follow a strong “Leader,” regardless of how unfit that person is for leadership, in order to have somebody else make all the hard decisions for them. I think if you use the “boy’s mind in an adult body” you could build a story around this character and any/all of those themes, and have it be meaningful and serious without just resorting to stuffing a movie full of boring/campy jokes about how dumb a grown man looks when he can’t do simple math, read long words, or relate to adult sexual situations, etc.
So there’s my comments– Good luck!
April 8th, 2007 at 6:40 am
“So every time I read one of these, I’m struck with the same realization I encounter trying to watch The Honeymooners or a black-and-white movie: Wow. Old things suck.”
I can see your point if you’re talking about old versions of comics (The original versions of the X-Men comes to mind…), but I think you need to be a whole lot more specific if you start talking about film. Perhaps a better way to say what I think you mean would be “Some old things suck…”. Sure, there are awkward first films that today seem dated, and there are alot of not so great black and white movies out there… but there are also a ton of black and white movies that are brilliantly made and are a thousand times better than most of the crap that’s churned out today. (The films of Howard Hawks and John Huston come immediately to mind.) And perhaps you may not care for the original Honeymooners episodes, but to me saying they suck is a bit of a stretch… Especially when there are so many other things put out in the last ten years that truly do suck.
April 8th, 2007 at 8:19 am
Drew said, “I’m not clear on the distinction you’re trying to make.” Here is a snip from the Wiki on Cap describing the change made to him by DC in 1987: “The most notable change that [DC] introduced into the Captain Marvel mythos was that the personality of young Billy Batson is retained when he transforms into the Captain. The Golden Age comics tended to treat Captain Marvel and Billy as two separate personalities. This change would remain for all future uses of the character, as justification for his sunny, Golden-Age personality in the darker modern-day comic book world.”
DC made the rest of Cap’s world darker so why they didn’t just make Cap’s personality a little less “sunny” is anyone’s guess (I’ve already stated my own guess).
Drew said, “If he’s, I dunno, switching places with CM, or something like that, then that’s too much like the Marvel Comics version of the Captain Marvel character.” Liz added “…you’re basically going the “Yu-Gi-Oh!” route…” To Liz, I don’t know anything about Yu-Gi-Oh, but Drew is right that in this sense (this one very limited sense) the Marvel Comics character is more faithful to the original Captain Marvel than DC’s modern version of the original Captain Marvel (on a side-note, the cartoon He-Man, arguably is another incarnation of the original Captain Marvel… different magic words, but same lighting bolt and same effect).
I don’t want to troll on about comic-book mythology, there are plenty of other websites for that sort of thing, but in an oversimplified nutshell, the original mythos was set-up so that Cap was something of a psychological surrogate for Billy’s lost father. Billy is an orphan who is magically granted a purely good and supremely powerful father-figure to call on and learn from.
Liz puts her finger right on the problem with the DC version when she refers to, “boring/campy jokes about how dumb a grown man looks when he can’t do simple math, read long words, or relate to adult sexual situations, etc.” This is exactly the kind of thing that DC does with character. They over child-ize him so that the reader never forgets that it’s a little kid in there, and it always comes off just plain awkward (remember those moments in the movie “Big” when Tom Hanks seemed to be playing a kid far younger than the one who wished to be big? That’s pretty much what it always feels like all the time).
I’m certainly not the only fan who targets this change of character and mythology as a weakness. I think if you hunt around internet fan-sites devoted to the character, you’ll find that this is actually a commonly held (if not majority) opinion of those who follow character.
Finally, Liz asked, “Why do that? It’s been done already.” Well, to quote a favorite screenwriter of mine, “[Is it] really that similar?… You say that your script has a similar premise and theme, but neither of those speak to plot. X-MEN and SKY HIGH have similar premises, but if you’d written the latter, you wouldn’t automatically draw the comparison to the former.” I don’t think any of those other properties are similar enough to Cap to prevent John from crafting a great and original story around the premise.
To be clear, I’m not a “purist” or anything like that (as I’ve said twice, I do like a lot of what DC changed about Cap’s world). In fact, quite the contrary, what I’m asking John to do is craft something that doesn’t quite resemble any previous version of the character. A quality screen-adaptation does not necessarily imply fidelity to any particular existing vision (John’s Big Fish was different from the novel in several ways). It should just be trying to tell the best story possible.
Hell, I’m going to this movie… John has already my $11 (or whatever a movie ticket costs when this thing finally comes out). I’m just apprehensive now about what I’m going to get.
April 8th, 2007 at 9:25 am
Hey Hoppy,
“Yu-Gi-Oh!” is an animated children’s series about a “dueling monsters” card game, in which the very young and VERY innocent protagonist (Yugi) acquires a mystical ancient Egyptian artifact called the “Millennium Puzzle”. The artifact, when called upon, allows him to transform into a taller, more mature version of himself with superior intellect that allows him to win epic card-game battles (which are the focal activity of everything in the Yu-Gi-Oh universe). As the series goes along, you gradually find out that it isn’t really Yugi who is running the show when he transforms, but the spirit of an ancient Egyptian Pharaoh (I think his name is Yani) who has been preserved in the Puzzle, and with whom Yugi willingly agrees to share his mind and body. Together, they pursue greatness in the form of card-game victories, eventually discovering that the “game” isn’t a game at all, but rather a form of magical dueling practiced by ancient and powerful Egyptian rulers. There are many similarities between what you’re proposing for Captain Marvel and the Yu-Gi-Oh story– which could be a good thing (since the show already has a following) or a bad thing (because people may say, “I liked this idea better as a cartoon about a kid’s card game!”) Anyway, as a similar story, it’s something John might find worthwhile to research. And I agree with you about He-Man as well, that should probably also be on the required viewing list, since it’s an offshoot of the same idea.
April 8th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
John did you have access to William Goldman’s script? Are you planning on using something from it?
Regarding the issue of Captain Marvel as a child in a grown man body, if think if you cut it away you loose a lot of what is peculiar to the character in most of his history. But it has to be played in a subtle way, as the character has the wisdom of Solomon so he can’t be portrayed as dumb. But there’s no C of Cynism in Shazam, and that’s what could be the main difference between CM and a real grown up man.
April 8th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
I think AntoBlueberry has struck upon the biggest misconception about Captain Marvel, and one of the most potent opportunities/challenges John faces with this adaptation.
When Billy Batson speaks that One Magic Word, he is not merely put in the body of a grown-up superhero’s body that can fly and kick ass. He is imbued with…
• The Wisdom of Solomon
• The Strength of Hercules
• The Stamina of Atlas
• The Power of Zeus
• The Courage of Achilles
• The Speed of Mercury
…which means he’s not just bigger, stronger and faster than his normal kid-self, he’s braver and wiser - which is at least as valuable (and, ideally, that should be demonstrated in the film).
Of course, this also taps into some pretty huge questions/issues of identity, and there’s great dramatic potential for a two-way transfer of traits between Billy and Cap, fueling their respective arcs.
Yes, Billy imbues Captain Marvel with a child’s innocence and wonder (which is what made Big work so magically) - but at the same time, the experiences Billy has as Captain Marvel [should] have a profound impact on Billy, and his development as a character.
(There’s other rich territory to be explored, which Paul Dini showcases in The Power of Hope, in that while Billy discovers there are all sorts of things he can do as Captain Marvel that he could never do as Billy, the opposite holds equally true - otherwise, why wouldn’t Billy choose to remain Captain Marvel all the time?)
And while I’m here (posting for the first time, in fact), I have to say this: John, as a 35-year-old new father who fell in love with the character through the ’70s DC Comics, the hopes and dreams of my childhood rest squarely on your shoulders. Ever since seeing Superman as a kid, I’ve yearned to see Billy’s story realized in a truly great film that fulfills the still-unrealized potential of this classic comic myth.
SHAZAM!
April 8th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
John,
Thanks for the informative entry on your researching Captain Marvel.
About the vintage collections of Captain Marvel stories you refer to (The DC Shazam Archives), those editions only reprint the formative years (1940-1942) of the character, as artist CC Beck and writer Otto Binder were still developing the series and their own talent. Unfortunately, DC very rarely reprints the later Beck/Binder Captain Marvel stories, which are much more polished (especially the run from 1945-1953).
If you were to read those later stories side-by-side with the Jeff Smith Shazam!: The Monster Society of Evil series, you’d see how much similar the two are in tone and quality. Or to use your own comparison, Smith’s version is more true to the original series, whereas Ordway’s and Winick’s work is more like the Gene Wilder version of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.
The best effort to recapture the whimsical tone of the character was accomplished by Alan Moore in a tribute story in Tom Strong Book Two. If you can, it’s worth tracking down copies of the 1970s Shazam! series for its rare reprints of Captain Marvel stories from 1945 on up. Also useful is A Smithsonian Book of Comic-Book Comics (published in 1981, eds. Michael Barrier and Martin Williams) which reprints a very good Beck/Binder story and has a two-page essay that explains the aesthetics of the series better than anything else I’ve read.
Sincerely,
Aaron Malchow
April 8th, 2007 at 9:33 pm
“Old things suck…” Really??? Pretty harsh words from the guy who wrote film versions of Charlie’s Angels…
The thing about a lot of “old” things (including some of the admittedly goofy Captain Marvel books) is that they have enjoyed a long life and will continue to enjoy that longevity for many years to come while some of your own work has already been forgotten.
Sure there were some clunky Captain Marvel stories, but there was also a certain “something” there that endeared them to readers then and now (and I think C.C. Beck’s absolutely fantastic art had a LOT to do with that).
I think as the person hired to bring this character to the big screen, you should show a little more respect to the source material than you have. I realize this is your blog and you are free to post whatever the hell you wish, but how do you think fans (and non-fans) are going to react when you come out and say that the original material upon which you are basing your screenplay is utter dreck!
Imagine if Peter Jackson had publically stated that Tolkien’s books were “awkward” or “crude” prior to production of the trilogy???
I suggest you read some more of the stuff, research a bit and learn WHY the books were cobbled together as they were and chat with some of the surviving old guard who worked on those books (if there are any left).
It’s one thing to criticize some of the stories, etc., it’s quite another thing to make such a sweeping generalization as you have done here.
April 8th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
The Justice League animated series from the last few years did a great take on the character. I’d rank it right up there with some of the comics as an essential take on the character. The episode is on one of the DVD sets that’s come out in the last couple of months too, so it’s easy enough to find.
It’s a great episode too. They really captured the character and still found time for a story and a big fight between Superman and the Big Red Cheese.
April 8th, 2007 at 11:11 pm
Please say you were being facetious with the “old things suck” line. I’d like to avoid labeling you “the personification of everything that is wrong with today’s Hollywood” if you only threw that in there to test how carefully people are reading your posts.
April 9th, 2007 at 2:54 am
“But what you quickly realize is that old-time comic books were awkwardly written, crudely drawn, and bewilderingly inconsistent with their rules.”
Having recently had to wade through a bunch of awful, ancient B/W reprints before writing GREEN ARROW: YEAR ONE, I can confirm this 100%.
Doesn’t mean you won’t still draw hell from the nostalgia-nerds for saying it out loud, though…
April 9th, 2007 at 3:40 am
“If nothing else, I think we can both agree that Billy Batson shouldn’t travel around in a Winnebago with his uncle.”
Anyhow, Ogma said:
I am completely fine with this concept so long as you get the right woman to play Isis
“It’s one thing to criticize some of the stories, etc., it’s quite another thing to make such a sweeping generalization as you have done here.”
The fact is that they DID suck. They may have endeared themselves to us, they may, even, have been good at the time, but they still sucked.
Why?
Because the form was still learning and growing.
It had also been smacked pretty hard by the comics code.
While, say, the 1960s Superman had some amazing ideas for stories (I WISH present day publishers would take chances with that kind of bizarre stuff…I mean, tiny superman clones coming out of his forehead???), but from an actual writing perspective, they were crap.
Oh, and the other reason why?
They were aimed at 8 year olds.
Look at it this way…
I loved Shazam on TV as a kid. I loved those earlier made-for-tv Spiderman movies.
I’ve seen them since.
Painful.
Honestly, painful.
Letting nostalgia cloud judgement is what gets us the Batman And Robin movie (”FREEZE!”)
April 9th, 2007 at 4:26 am
Hi John, thanks for the kinds wors about the DC Encyclopedia, where I was one of the four authors. Condensing the DCU into only a few hundred pages was not at all easy, especially as the facts about the characters were changing hourly at that point. Still, it’s something I’m proud of. I wish you the best of luck with the film script.
April 9th, 2007 at 4:40 am
I would regularly watch classic films with my niece, and if a film was black-an-white, her eyes would gloss over. I was watching the Laurel and Hardy short “The Great Pie Fight”. She looked at it, and said, “I’ve seen lots of pie fights, what’s so great about this one?” And I tried to explain to her, these guys all but INVENTED the pie fight.
There’s way too many people who think that anything older than 10 years or so is hopelessly outdated and needs updating to be made relevant to today. Others view it with nostalgia and would love to see it again. It’s the exact kind of place where a person could make a nice living doing new versions of 70’s TV shows as movies.
Comics of the 30s, 40s and 50s were simplistic, and in many cases, mere “product” churned out for profit. Not terribly different from, say, the film industry of today, on several levels. But there’s some great stuff in there is one is willing to search.
It’s not all gospel level perfection. (Heck, how many times did they try to make the Maltese Falcon before Houston got it right and gave us the one for the ages?) I’m assuming you were using a bit of hyperbole, and know your way around the classic stuff as well, or you wouldn’t know your way around the character
I got a feeling the “Old things suck” line is going to be the one most quoted line out of this whole entry. Heck, it’s the one I used when I mentioned it on Newsarama-it’s a grabber. The lion’s share of your entry is a good primer on Cap, with a good representation on all his eras and tones.
Personally, I’m hoping for a good bit of Ordway’s era (As you say, Mummy-like stuff sells) and a more Tom Hanks’ “Big” take on the “Boy in a superpowered man’s body” idea. But my big wish is simple - keep it lighthearted. I do NOT want to see a grim and gritty Captain Marvel. I don’t want to see the “homeless” aspect made an Important, Relevant plot point; heck I could stand with it being removed altogether, put him in an orphanage or something. But if there’s a myopic social worker involved who tries to take Billy away from his latest foster home because of all of his “undocumented absences”, I will boil your pet bunny rabbit. (g)
April 9th, 2007 at 4:58 am
I’m going to disagree with the last writer. What good does it do you to research the cobble when you’ve got a deadline breathing down your neck and telling you that you’ve got a pretty mouth?
I’m sure you’ll do fine. I want the team to find that spark of what made Captain Marvel magic (more popular than Superman in its day) and tell it to us today in a way that we’ll understand today.
And you know something? Fuck the fans. Who gives a shit what we think? And fuck the studios too… I know you have to smile and nod when they give you notes, but they’re all scared rabbits who wish they were creative.
April 9th, 2007 at 5:31 am
Hi John–
As to other reading material, check out Alex Ross’s and Jim Krueger’s JUSTICE. When Captain Marvel has screen time, the authors strike a good balance between wonder and maturity while leaving no doubt that Billy is in there.
Best,
Walt
April 9th, 2007 at 5:58 am
I would like to respectfully disagree that old things suck. I’m a huge fan of the Honeymooners, that show still cracks me up. There’s nothing on TV written or performed on that level now. The last time they had a Honeymooners marathon here in NYC, the next day I heard a crowd of office workers at a fast food place excitedly relating their favorite scenes to each other, they had watched the marathon for hours. And they all looked younger than me. John Kricfalusi (”Ren & Stimpy”) instructs his artists to study the Honeymooners, and referenced them just recently on his blog.
As for modern comic books being somehow better than the old Otto Binder/CC Beck era comics, that’s absurd. Captain Marvel got canceled when his sales dipped below a million copies per issue in the 50’s, whereas modern comics are lucky to sell in 6 figures. Modern comics are written by people for a dwindling audience of 12-year-old boys, while old comics were written for people of all ages. Also, I find modern comic “writing” unreadable, I find the illustrations overdone. Modern writers and artists study other comics, the original comics writers and artists studied the world around them.
You might want to read some old interviews with CC Beck where he warns against some of the dark alleys you appear to be about to wander into. You might want to read some of the incredibly imaginative Otto Binder stories. You’re against “Mentor” but for the crappy versions of Cap that have come since and never proved popular? Why? “Mentor” was more popular than Judd Winnick’s Marvel, and more people will remember Mentor than any of Winnick’s inventions or the JSA or JLA or whatever else you’re referencing there. If Mentor is Gene Wilder’s Charlie, then the DC stuff that’s come since Mentor is like an off-off-Broadway version of Charlie that kept closing down a month after it opened each time.
Shorter version:
The first version of Captain Marvel was the most popular comic book for a long time and still has hardcore fans. Make THAT modern and you might have yourself a heck of a franchise. The new version of Captain Marvel, however, reached the height of its popularity with the Saturday morning series in the 1970’s, and in the minds of fans (and sales figures) has declined since then. NOBODY likes the modern boychild version of Captain Marvel, unless you actually do.
April 9th, 2007 at 6:21 am
Also, if you have a chance to read anything Harlan Ellison has written about the old comic books, that might really open you up to how they could be made up to date while retaining what originally made them popular. He’s an award-winning writer, maybe you’ll respect his opinion more than mine and all us other fans of “old, sucky” stuff.
April 9th, 2007 at 7:00 am
As Captain Marvel, Billy has the wisdom of Solomon so it’s not like he’s a kid trying to figure out things that are over his head. What Cap gets from Billy is, as I see it, a young boy’s enthusiasm and sense that “anything’s possible” and, as one commenter said, a lack of cynicism (even though you may argue that today’s kids aren’t like that.) Captain Marvel, through Billy’s influence, is (or should be) free of the angst that many of today’s characters are saddled with.
April 9th, 2007 at 7:27 am
One of the most touching Capt. Marvel moments ever is in a book he only shows up in 3-4 pages of: kind of like Kingdom Come but a little more positive, maybe– Frank Miller’s The Dark Knight Strikes Back.
In it, Marvel professes to Wonder Women that Billy Batson has been dead for years, and if he uses his Shazam! power, he will die, too. So, he has become a shell of a superhero: all-powerful but impotent at the same time, because of he uses his powers, he will die. Kind of sad, but then he asks right before he poofs out of existence something to the effect of, “Where does a dream go when it dies?” kind of poingnant?
that being said, kind of a bad idea to rip off frank miller in a movie these days, but it’s an interesting character moment.
April 9th, 2007 at 7:41 am
You wrote:
“every time I read one of these, I’m struck with the same realization I encounter trying to watch The Honeymooners or a black-and-white movie: Wow. Old things suck.”
Wow– I never saw an actual person become a character from a movie– in this case, you fit in with almost any character from “The Player”– or is that too old a reference for you? Yeah, Gleason, Chaplin, Welles, Capra– couldn’t these guys have the guts to not suck? It’s that great attitude that has given us the majority of comic adaptations…
Sarcasm aside, this is not an attack on you as a writer– just your attitude. Good luck with the film.
April 9th, 2007 at 9:09 am
I think old things suck. And I think a lot of new things suck too. Those rare exceptions are what keep me coming back.
April 9th, 2007 at 9:23 am
I can understand your “old comics suck” comment. Still…bear in mind not to throw out the baby with the bathwater, and throw out the stuff that MADE this the most popular comic book in the world. No one dispute Bob Kane’s and even Bill Finger’s early stories were awkward—but by going back to the original idea, later writers UPDATED Batman with a realistic motivation and characterization. Similarly, use the past without slavishly emulating it.
I DO think Judd Winick’s take in FIRST THUNDER is the correct one….as is Jeff Bone’s—of portraying Billy as a realistically homeless kid, especially from the beginning. (If you want to later have him join a TV network, some channel could be opened for kids, a news program like Nicknews, for kids—but in this case NARRATED by a kid, by Billy.)
You could update Sterling Morris as a Ted Turner type.
I’d go with Sivana in the first movie, and leave Black Adam for the second…perhaps as a scientist working for the network, but with his own take and plans, and eventually fired by Morris, and vowing revenge…?
You could have Freddy Freeman as another homeless kid, a crippled one, helping him, without him becoming Junior—at least in this movie.
Best of luck.
April 9th, 2007 at 9:37 am
John,
I don’t think you really mean “old things suck” I think what you mean is that a younger audience member cannot gather from older material what they need to appreciate it. This is because those older films and stories have informed and influenced nearly everything that came after, and modern kids have already assimilated much of what the older material has to offer.
In many cases, the current appeal of older films and television is just the talent of the performers. We want to see The Three Stooges do all the old routines because they’re so good at it. If Old things sucked, there would be no TV Land, Universal wouldn’t have re-released many of thier old horror films, and producers wouldn’t be looking at old TV shows for the next big-screen hit.
As reference to Captain Marvel, I can only say this: please take to heart the lessons of both the good(Spider-Man[s], Batman, and to a lesser extent, X-Men) and the bad (Hulk, Superman Returns, The Shadow, The Phantom)adaptations: Trust the material. Look at the character during it’s greatest period of poularity. Common sense insists that there lies the elements that made the character great.
It’s a mistake to dismiss a given element (For example, Mr. Tawny) and say “that’s just dumb, it dosen’t work any more”. What is lost is the strength that element brings to the concept. (Mr Tawny is a brilliant comment on the flaws and fobiles of humans. You can use him to make any comment you like on the species, and no socio-political-ethnic groups can take umbrage.)
The most successful comic adaptations have not shied away from the more absurd elements, indeed they have embraced them. Filtered through a modern lens yes, but bringing the baby along and leaving the bathwater behind.
And please, please John, I ask with all sincerity please do not be guided by Judd Winick, or Geoff Johns as regards this character. They are the men who have been deconstructing Captain Marvel, they are the ones who have steered him away from the interpetation that made the character popular in the first place. These are the guys who insist upon “fixing” what was never broken.
Please DO seek out more by Paul Dini on the matter. No professional writer of modern day has a better grasp of Captain Marvel than Paul Dini. If you do not avail yourself of his influence in writing this script, you do a disservice to the character, his fans (who after all, have to count for something.) and ultimately to yourself as you suely want to write the best script possible.
My personal veiw, the film has to witty, it has to be imagnitative, more than anything else, it has to be fun (a quality sorely lacking in most current comics and many comic films.) And it has to be remembered that Billy is the hero, Captain Marvel is the “genie” he summons in time of danger.
I would also warn against overloading the script with characters. As much as I adore the Marvel Family, there simply isn’t room in an inital film for more than Billy, Cap, and Sivana. The supporting characters should extend to no more than The Wizard and Sterling Morris (Perhaps in Billy’s neghborhood there’s a kindly bookstore operator named “Dudley” who practices ventriloqism with his rabbit puppet “Hoppy”. -whatever.)
I’m just thinking it should be kept to the basics, and leave something to be introduced in later films.
Finally, I’d ask that you keep in mind that Captain Marvel at his best (The Beck/Binder stories) have NEVER been interpeted for film. That material is deserving to be brought to a new generation. Tweaked for the modern audience, yes. But for the sake of SHAZAM, not “re-imagined”. that is an approach that has seldom resulted in a successful film.
Good luck, and get to work. I’ve been waiting thirty-five years for this film and I want it in the theatres ASAP!
April 9th, 2007 at 9:57 am
urr… Shouldn’t you have some kind of disclaimer? I mean, you got these phan-boys giving you “suggestions.” I know they’re uncopyrightable, but jeez, don’t give some litigious jerk any room. It’s so nice you’re sharing with us, but don’t let us bite you on the ass.
April 9th, 2007 at 11:03 am
I’m less concerned by the idea that you find old comics somewhat lacking — but the idea that a screenwriter could type out the sentence — “I’m struck with the same realization I encounter trying to watch The Honeymooners or a black-and-white movie: Wow. Old things suck.” — wow.
So “Citizen Kane” sucks? (Would it suck less if it were colorized?) Or “Treasure of the Sierra Madre?” Or Cocteau’s “Beauty and the Beast” (phew, good thing Disney made one in color so you’d have something you could sit through). Or the collected work of Billy Wilder, Michael Curtiz, Preston Sturges, Frank Capra, the Marx Brothers? Are you at all familiar with these names and their old, sucky black and white films?
April 9th, 2007 at 11:21 am
“But what you quickly realize is that old-time comic books were awkwardly written, crudely drawn, and bewilderingly inconsistent with their rules.”
Having recently had to wade through a bunch of awful, ancient B/W reprints before writing GREEN ARROW: YEAR ONE, I can confirm this 100%.
Doesn’t mean you won’t still draw hell from the nostalgia-nerds for saying it out loud, though…
Doesn’t mean that current stuff is pure gold, though. Some of what’s on the above list is garbage. First Thunder, Trials of Shazam, and Shazam and the Monster Society of Evil can accurately be described as being “awkwardly written, crudely drawn, and bewilderingly inconsistent with their rules”. The same is true for Lightning Strikes (Incorrectly labelled as Day of Vengeance), with the exception that the art in that is excellent.
If you want to trash the older stuff, fine. But personally I don’t find it at all heartening when a different pile of garbage is held up as the standard which must be adhered to, just because it’s newer and hasn’t yet had a chance to fester.
On the bright side, at least Shazam: Power of Hope, JSA, and Kingdom Come made the above list. And as someone else mentioned, Justice is also a good one. And while he wasn’t the focus in the story, Captain Marvel’s appearance in Day of Vengeance (The real one written by Bill Willingham about the Shadowpact’s battle against the Spectre) is also a good read.
April 9th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
Bob (#21):
Man, kudos on the encyclopedia. Nearly every time I pick it up, I think what a nightmare that would be to put together. I’ve found mistakes — mostly smalled-capped names indicating an article which doesn’t exist — but on the whole it’s remarkably constructed, and reads with a single voice.
April 9th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
It’s not Mark Wald.. it’s Mark Waid.
April 9th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
I would say these three things: While watching the movie, I should laugh; while watching the movie, I should be thrilled by amazing stunts and incredible conflicts; when I leave the movie, I should be buoyed upward, enthusiastic, and feeling like the world can be changed for the better.
April 9th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Judd Winick’s stuff is crap…total shit. Jeff Smith’s stuff is ok, but childish. Roy Thomas and Jerry Ordway had some great, but not perfect moments. Alex Ross is the only one at DC who really gets Cap. His “Justice” and “Power Of Hope” nail it perfectly. John, you really got to include and respect the Fawcett stuff…that is the real Capt Marvel. The DC version is little more than a Superman-Dr Fate hybrid. Contact Ross…pick his brain. He is the man as far as Capt Marvel goes.
April 9th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
Wow, Hoppy gets the character better than John August does? I wish he was writing this movie instead. As it stands, it looks like we’re getting another “Captain Marvel as childlike-retard” take on the character that has plagues the comics version for decades. Oh well…
April 9th, 2007 at 7:54 pm
I think you got the point and you have a great mission ahead: Bring the Capitain Marvel OUT of the Superman Shadows and show the world, and de DC comics it self, the great character He is. for himself.
I´m already waiting for this!
April 10th, 2007 at 2:36 am
Just to add my two cents.
I am a fan of CM for 34 years and I prefer the Billy in an Adults body version.
I need to say this to balance those who are vocal about the CM and Billy being two separate entities. I hate that idea. Where is the wish fulfillment in that?
I would go with the others that say the only difference between billy and CM should be the wisdom of solomon.
My favourite version of CM?
Justice
The TV show Justice league Unlimited
Action Comics issue by Joe kelly, cannot remember the issue number.
Kingdom Come
I wish you luck with the project and keep my fingers crossed it turns out well.
Bottom Line, no matter what I will be there to watch it on opening night. I just hope I will like it.
April 10th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
I just wanted to say that both Tim Burton (Batman) and Sam Rami (Spiderman) attribute their film’s “vission” to the original source material (even if they were far inferior when compared to today’s standards). The key point being that they didn’t plagiarize the material; they just drew their inspiration from it.
So I guess this puts me in the Hoppy/Captain Infinity/Lon Madnight Camp.
But if we still need a Modern Authority on the subject; then who better than Grant Morrison. In fact, this is what he had to say:
“The way to make Captain Marvel simultaneously child-like and grown-up is to make the character a kid’s idea of what his dad would be like. [...] He’s an incredibly noble and really nice guy who doesn’t seem to have much sexuality about him. [...] He’s the Sir Percival character; the real innocent, perfect shining knight (Grant Morrison courtesy of Wizard Magazine).”
Or, if you want Captain Marvel’s own take on the subject…
“I believe in fair play, I believe in taking people at their word and giving them the benefit of the doubt. Back home I’ve come up against my share of pretty nasty bad guys, but I never had to act the way they did to win a fight. I always found another way. I—I guess I’m saying I—I like being a hero, a symbol, and that’s why I’m…quitting the Justice League. You don’t act like heroes anymore.”
Captain Marvel (to Superman and the Justice League) in “Clash”
April 10th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
Hello, Mr. August,
Thank you for allow us to comment your Captain Marvel´s movie. And let me ask sorry for my english; I´m writing this post from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, and my english may be a little rusty.
I read all the notes posted, and they are all worthy. I think that the major concern in a movie that big is to be faithful to the character origins. I’m not talking about a super-powerful family, a talking worm, a talking tiger or a bald-genius-super-villain. I’m talking about HOW you’ll answer the question that always drove mad the writers of the Big Red Cheese: HE IS A KID!!! AND HE FLIES!!! AND HE HAD SUPER-STREHGT!!!
Despite that, he also had the Solomon´s Wisdon, a very interesting tool to balance his other predicates.
Question: If you receive magically the gifts of Captain Marvel, WHAT WOULD YOU DO???
Thanks for sharing your opinions with us, Mr. August. Greetings from Brazil, where our Big Captain has a lot of fans!!!
April 11th, 2007 at 11:42 am
Hi John,
Here’s some further inspiration, or perhaps further evidence of aged suckage: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=264472&page=811&p=7156383
Enjoy!
April 11th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
I think what you’re looking for is “Big” except Tom Hanks can fly.
April 11th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Everything you need to write a Captain Marvel script is in the first eight issues of Whiz Comics. What I would pay to go see is a Captain Marvel movie, straight out of the Shazam Archives vol. 1, set in 1940, with Captain Marvel vs. Sivana, with Beautia on both sides. Frog men from Venus need apply!
April 11th, 2007 at 7:11 pm
John,
There are quite a few comics and collections I’d suggest that may aide you in writing the Shazam! movie.
If you haven’t already done so, you may find it very useful to seek out the better of the early Fawcett Comics material to get a proper feel for the Captain Marvel character (or at least the Fawcett version of such). The five Archive Editions DC has out on Shazam! are Cap’s very earliest appearances in print. These were indeed somewhat crude and uneven in quality, and are not (at all) indicative of the proper tone of his most popular stories.
You’d instead want to browse (or have someone browse for you) the used comic racks for copies of the old 1973-1978 Shazam! series. That series regularly featured reprints alongside (or instead of) new material, and it’s the reprints stories you want to reference not the new stories in those 1970s books). You’ll find the material which should prove beneficial in writing a Shazam! movie in reprints of Captain Marvel solo tales done between 1945 and 1953. These are the tales Cap’s legacy is built upon. DC should have these old Fawcett stories on file (microform, PDFs) at their offices, and I don’t see any reason as to why they wouldn’t arrange for you to at least take a peek at them. There’s a whimsical yet still sophisticated tone to these stories that makes them unique among Golden Age comics.
The “holy grail” of Captain Marvel stories is the “Monster Society of Evil” epic story arc, which ran in Captain Marvel Adventures from 1943 to 1945. A limited edition reprint was published in the late 1980s, but the only way you’d probably be able to get a copy of the “Monster Society of Evil” arc today is if DC has it on file for viewing.
As far as DC-produced Shazam! material, it becomes trickier to navigate between the jewels and the junk. You’d want to avoid all of the brand-new stories in the 1970s Shazam! series and the ‘74-’77 TV show as well: while baby boomers who grew up with them may adore them, they’re far too campy and corny for their own good today (interestingly, however, these stories as the easiest ones to get a hold of, as almost all of them are reprinted in the 500-page black-and-white reprint Showcase Presents: Shazam!)
Though it is no longer a part of “continuity”, DC’s 1987 miniseries Shazam! The New Beginning features an interestingly mature characterization of Billy Batson/Captain Marvel. In that series, he’s a fifteen year old kid with a definite chip on his shoulder. While your version isn’t going to be as old, you may find inspiration in how something like Captain Marvel can work in a less abstract setting.
You’ve read Jerry Ordway’s Power of Shazam! graphic novel. It, Geoff Johns’ JSA material, and the Paul Dini/Alex Ross Shazam! Power of Hope are probably the three Captain Marvel related items that use the character to the fullest of his potential, for one primary reason: balance. They manage to retain elements of the fun and whimsy of the original Fawcett character, while updating him to work in a modern setting.
Ordway, Johns, and Dini all illustrate the biggest difference between Cap and Superman: Cap is an affable and innocent people person, while Superman is someone to be awed or revered. Captain Marvel doesn’t take himself too seriously (how could he? He’s still in grade school!). Supes scowls. Cap smiles. I’d say Power of Shazam! and Power of Hope script (and Ross’ incredible artwork) made some of the best and most understanding use of the character since his Fawcett days.
Aside from the aforementioned and perhaps the first two years of Ordway’s Power of Shazam! ongoing series, nothing else really features a wholly successful take on the character. When Captain Marvel joined Keith Giffen and J. M. DeMatteis’ Justice League in 1987, we had to endure seven issues of a blathering immature doofus who made a fool of himself more often than not. Judd Winick’s First Thunder Captain Marvel is depicted as horribly immature (his Billy Batson is far more level-headed). Winick also holds a sharp contempt for the Fawcett material (he told Fanboy Radio that he felt the Fawcett Captain Marvels were “closer to Popeye cartoons than actual superhero stuff”. Which, of course, is the entire point of the property - it’s more fantasy than POW! BIFF! BAM! - but that’s a discussion for another day). Jeff Smith’s current Monster Society of Evil is fun and engaging, but its aim and tone wouldn’t be much inspiration to the sort of live-action superhero film DC probably wants (Jeff Smith’s Shazam! would make an excellent animated feature, however)
It’s probably already predetermined and predicated that the film you’re going to write will treat Captain Marvel/Billy Batson as the same person; instead of the two having separate personalities, Cap will retain certain childlike characteristics, as he does in most of his recent DC appearances. This can be done, however, without descending into Big-isms - that is, large, blatant displays of immaturity played for goofy comedy. One of Cap’s powers is the Wisdom of Solomon, which should generally keep him from messing up regularly (see Johns’ material), but Wisdom can be trumped by emotional strife and pain. That is where the kid should peek out, when Cap is at emotional highs and lows. We should be able, in other words, to “see through” his adult facade and observe a scared or excited teenager reacting to what’s going on.
And despite the fact that, in the original Fawcett books, Captain Marvel and Billy Batson were two separate characters, you’ll note that Captain Marvel didn’t always exactly behave as a mature adult. Captain Marvel was in particular extremely shy when it came to women (will Beautia Sivana be in your screenplay?), while Billy Batson had a steady girlfriend.
I know you said that things like The Honeymooners and black-and-white movies don’t appeal to you (man, you would hate my DVD-watching habits), but any proper take on Captain Marvel has to have a vintage feel of some sort. The character is anachronistic by nature: a smiling, happy superhero who wants to inspire hope in the hearts of the people he saves every day. There’s no reason to turn Shazam! into a period piece, but (very) subtle use of the tone, look, and feel of a classic 1940s comics or 1940s film may be very beneficial.
I apologize for having made such a long reply. I’ve hoped DC would put a Shazam! movie in the pipeline since I was Billy Batson’s age, so I’ve had well over a decade to theorize about how (or even if) Captain Marvel would work in modern cinema. I hope something (anything) I’ve said will help you in scripting the Shazam! movie.
P.S.: Have you ever seen the Adventures of Captain Marvel serial from 1941? It’s definitely worth a look.
April 12th, 2007 at 3:35 am
I don’t really think the “Big” approach is the way to go. for those who haven’t read this on the next thread over, let me quote myself:
“I am very glad you mention the word “wonder”. It is indeed, the heart of the character. This is the story of a kid who gets the ultimate wish-fullfillment. For that reason, he can not be written as “A kid in a mans’ body.” When kids dream of suddenly being an adult, they dream of being a supremely capable adult. No insecuities, no inappropriate phrasing, no embarassing social gaffes. It is probably most accurate to say that Captain Marvel has the thoughts, feelings and reactions of a 12-13 year old boy, but he expresses them in the way a mature adult would. The only time, the ONLY time the boy aspect should peek out is in the “Holy Moley”s, and in situations where a beautiful woman shows sexual interest. (Cap should be totally out of his depth at such a point. An actual kid would be embarrassed as hell to have a supermodel start fawning over him, and that should be Cap’s reaction: embarrassment, almost fear.)”
April 12th, 2007 at 10:51 am
I personally agree with you. I feel that many old comics are terrible and it is painful any time I even attempt to read them.
I have always liked Black Adam and Capt. Marvel Jr. better than Cap himself, and am loving The Trials of Shazam! right now.
Can’t wait to see what they do with Mary in countdown (although that Benes cover says that she might actually become cool).
I have the uttermost faith in you since you have done some amazing work in the past (and if Tim Burton likes you, I like you)!
April 12th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
It’s still “Mark Waid”..
April 12th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Like all blanket statements, “old things suck,” is simplistic and inaccurate. The same thing applies to the opposite statement. I have often heard critics lament that the movies today aren’t as good as they used to be. The truth is that from the silent era to the present day, the vast majority of films have been crap, but every once and awhile you encounter a masterwork that keeps you coming back to the theater. The same applies to comics or any art form.
The work of Buster Keaton, W.C. Fields, and Preston Sturges can stand proudly next to the work of the Coen Bros., Edgar Wright, and Terry Zwigoff.
When it comes to comics, there was great storytelling even predating the comic book form. You should look at the work of George Herriman, Windsor McKay, E.C. Segar, Milton Caniff, Roy Crane, Hal Foster, Harold Gray, and Walt Kelly. After that, I doubt you’ll be able to say “old things suck.”
April 13th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
I realize you must have talent in the field of professional writing, or you wouldn’t be were you are in life. Having said that I’d like to put into prospective your now infamous statement:”Old Things Suck”. Had it not been for such visionaries as C.C. Beck and Bill Parker for creating Capt. Marvel, the vehicle known as comic books would’ve remained “funny books” probably a lot longer than they did. Funny books(not comic books) were referred to as such because the content was nothing more than reprinted Sunday Funnies. So had it not been for the “suck generation”, you wouldn’t be adapting a screenplay based on Capt. Marvel/Shazam. And we wouldn’t be on this blog making comments based on your assumptions. What is troubling to me is you seem to feel that you are above the source material you are writing about. I assume you took the assignment to create and build upon a Shazam movie franchise? If this is the case and if you stay true to the core concept as did the writers of Superman movie and the Spiderman movie had done, you will be a success. If however you ignore any of the core concepts because you feel “Old Things Suck”, your script and this Shazam project are doomed to failure. And you will momentarily (career wise) be hung out to dry. There had to have been something about Superman, Batman, Plastic Man and Capt. Marvel to have so captured the imagination of the American public to have lasted nearly 70 years. For those that agree with you, “Old Things Suck”, they lack the depth of understanding the rich history of Capt. Marvel. If you still stand by the remark: “Old Things Suck”… I feel it is a mean-spirited remark. I’d have to embrace the slogan:”Mean people Suck”.
April 14th, 2007 at 7:57 am
The problem with the old comics you’re dissing is that DC hasn’t collected the best ones yet in their archives since they insist on going in chronological order. The book got much, much better. I’m providing a link to an article I wrote on the subject of the good stuff. You should familiarize yourself with the later, better issues. If you’re really believing that “old stuff sucks” you’re going to make a bad Captain Marvel movie. The real gist of the character is based in the best of the old books. You should get some of those (DC republished a bunch of the stories in the 70’s Shazam series, but even then they left out the better ones-spend a hundred bucks and get some of the actual back issues circa 1945-1948). Captain Marvel more than any other comic book superhero is tied in to his creators; Otto Binder and CC Beck. Also, DC is taking the character in a direction besides what you’re looking at, and in something more towards what I’m talking about. Check out Jeff Smith’s Shazam: Monster Society of Evil, now in it’s second of four issues.
April 14th, 2007 at 10:57 am
If it hasn’t been mentioned yet, mandatory reading is THE FAWCETT COMPANION: BEST OF FCA edited by PC Hamerlinck, published by TwoMorrows. It has a number of articles and analysis of the Shazam characters by CC Beck and other Fawcett creators. You should not even consider turning your script into New Line until you have read this book cover to cover. It is far more accurate and valuable to Capt Marvel than the DC encyclopedia.
April 15th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
I’d like to do a quick perspective check.
As you certainly know, this very blog has been considerable fodder for the various boards where Captain Marvel is discussed. A great number of people continue to speculate as to what shape your approach on the character will take.
It is my feeling that a professional writer does the best script possible, even if the theme or subject is not in tune with his personal esthetic. That is to say: you are quite capable of writing a traditional take on Captain Marvel even if you consider it one of the “old things” that “suck”.
As I understand it, Michael Ulsan is producer of “Shazam!”. As such, he has the authority to send back a script he feels lacking or headed in the wrong direction. In his earliest comments on the project, Ulsan vowed that it would respect the work of Bill Parker, C.C. Beck, and Otto Binder. Just mentioning Bill Parker is all the evidince I personally need that Ulsan knows this material and is committed to the creation of a film that will please all Captain Marvel fans, yesterday, today and tomorrow.
Now here’s my question: What has Ulsan communicated to you about the film’s approach? Has he given you any thing he expects to see? Was there particular material he reffered you to?
A definite answer to these questions will go a long way to easing the concerns of many in this (admittedly niche) fan community.
And I will second the reccomendation of reading THE FAWCETT COMPANION as well as SHAZAM: FROM THE 40′S TO THE 70′S
May 2nd, 2007 at 2:55 pm
I’m suprised that a professional like you evidently are fails to see the greatness of “vintage comics”, as you call them.
There is no doubt that those comics are sons of a different time and age. But have you ever checked out the Capt. Marvel Jr. stories from the ‘40 and ‘50 before saying that the art wasn’t good? Have you ever considered how C. C. Beck’s design for the big red cheese is still unchanged today, and still ROCKS and doesn’t look 1 bit “old” in the way, for example, Superman’s costume does? It’s just timeless, it has a timeless, mythologic quality.
Do you prefer John’s new Mister Mind, the scary monster? Well I don’t. I liked the cute Mr. Mind of the old stories that would make me laugh and smile every time. I like the ingenuity of those stories and the pure FUN they were meant to give to the readers.
Are nowadays comics better? In shape, of course they are. They would be a total failure if they wasn’t. But in substance? In substance, modern comics are sometimes STILL very good, but so many other times are just recycling the same ideas over and over again, and making all in them more “adult” because of an audience that’s grown up with them, since they are incapable of capturing kids. And it’s obvious why they are… Always looking for the grim and gritty stuff and aways about death and distruction. Rarerly about FUN and IMAGINATION. I don’t even want to begin to tell you that the very existence of Lee and Kirby’s Fantastic Four is there to prove you wrong when you say “old things suck”.
I just hope you will not deprive SHAZAM of his magic, like DC is doing with the trials of shazam and is most likely going to do (I could bet on it, though I hope to be proven wrong) with countdown. And Shazam’s magic is not about realism. Is about FUN and IMAGINATION. Things that the old comics NEVER EVER lacked. Of course you can see that they are technically old, surpassed. But their ideas and lack of boundaries to imagination remains unsurpassed to this day and age. How many successful comic book characters where created after the ‘60? Please tell me. And please don’t even try to suggest things like SPAWN…
Do yourself and all Shazam fan’s a favour. Read ALL-STAR SUPERMAN. Morrison takes the magic of the silver age of comics and brings it in 2007. Imagination that runs wild with the narrative techniques of today. And of course the art of never-too-plauded Frank Quitely… But would we be able to admire Quitely’s work if there was no Jack Kirby? I doubt it. you can’t judge a work of art not taking into account when it was created, and how new it was when it first came out. You might perfect the technique to do a certain thing, through the years, as much as you want… But the greatest of debts will always be to the person who FIRST created it.
Excuse me for the very long post and the possible mistakes (english is not my mother language, since I’m italian), but I’m very disappointed when I read such superficial (no offense) remarks on one of my greatest passions in life. Especially from a guy which is writing the movie adapation for one of my favourite characters in the comicdom.
Again, no offense meant. I’m just speaking from the heart.
May 4th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
“Billy Batson shouldn’t travel around in a Winnebago with his uncle.”
Damn… that’s the version I was gunning for!
Seriously, for a great condensed depiction of the character, just look at the Justice League cartoon. The single episode in its 4th season perfectly catches the innocence and power of Captain Marvel. And it also features a killer Shazam!/Superman fight.
I totally disagree with you on the dissing vintage comics, but to everyone their own opinion. Saying that vintage comics were crudely done is sometimes true but also for modern comics. Just walk into any comic shop and fiddle through the 90’s comics. Then wash your hands because it has some of the best creators delivering horrible nonsense that got ‘uncreated’ by cosmic editorial events.
If you think only old comics are lousy, you’re reading very very specific comic books. Branch out, my man. It’s a big world. Or don’t, it’s your bookshelf.
Shazam is a very poor example of uneven art and writing. In fact, the original comics are pretty solid and feature artwork that puts Superman at the time to shame (the real reason DC sues Fawcett, I wager).
A decent book to get is the hardcover Shazam from the 40’s to the 70’s (and since you’re working on the movie, I promise that if you buy this book I’ll see your movie and tell everyone I can to do so as well). It’s very entertaining and fun.
A budget book is the recent Showcase Collection released by DC.
I also heartily recommend the Captain Marvel serial. It holds the place as perhaps the best serial ever made and there’s a reason for that, it rocks.
I’m not sure if they are necessary , but if you read All Star Superman and Miracle Man, you’ll at least have read some great comics that can only influence your writing of this film for the better.
I hope my humble suggestions are worth your time and thanks for sharing your process.
Best of luck.
May 4th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
On a side-note…
“My brother is big into classic rock. I once pointed out to him that everything he will ever like has already been recorded. Which seems depressing, but will undoubtedly happen to most of us.”
Actually the reverse is more true. Classic rock is around us 24/7 and re-invented and re-packaged ad-infinitum. As are old TV shows… isn’t someone working on a ‘Honeymooners’ movie?
New music/movies/ideas are much harder to come by and would definitely lead to depression.
May 6th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
John, if you can have anything to do with casting, would it hurt if you can get John Cena to play Captain Marvel, The Rock to play Black Adam, and Steve Busemi to play Sivana? And what does it take to become a casting director anyway? Thanks, best of luck, I know you’ll do better than Spiderman3.
May 6th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
Also, if he’s not really doing anything at the time, Sean Connery as the wizard Shazam. Ever since I saw him with long salt and pepper hair in the movie “The Rock”, he’s been Shazam for me.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:01 am
Mr. August :
When you are writing a script, Do you have in mind the name of the actor who could play the role? If it’s the case : Who would play the roles of the characters on Shazam movie?
Regards.
May 10th, 2007 at 7:19 pm
John has already said he has zero influence on casting and that no names have been mentioned, no matter what you’ve heard.
And that’s a shame. I’ve just heard that “The Rock” has actually been mentioned for the role of Cap, and I’d seriously have to consider passing on the film if that happened. I can accept Rock as Black Adam if he’s in the movie, (and I’d rather he wasn’t.) But he really, simply dosen’t have the acting chops to make the character of Captain Marvel work on the big screen.
May 19th, 2007 at 3:31 am
The actor who portrayed Adam West in the made for TV biopic “Return to the Batcave” would make the perfect Captain Marvel:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1229445/
May 28th, 2007 at 9:25 am
You know how in “Superman”, one of his first missions is to rescue a cat from a tree? Well, in “Shazam”, I hope one of Cap’s first missions is to stop an attempted Columbine-like attack at Billy Batson’s junior high school.
June 1st, 2007 at 10:04 pm
John,
One suggestion, if I may, PLEASE DO NOT continue the flawed concept in the recent DC Comics versions of Cap “hearing” Solomon’s voice. (”I can hear Solomon.”). He has the WISDOM of Solomon, not telepathic communication with him. I’m not sure where that started, but it’s always bugged me!!
I discovered Captain Marvel when he was re-introduced in the 1970s. My father had told me a lot about him, since he had read Cap in his youth in the 1940s. I’ve been a fan of Cap now for the last 30+ years, and have read the old stuff as well as the new. (Can’t stomach the changing of Cap into a Wizard and Freddy into “Shazam.” Ugh!).
Anyway, sounds like you are on the right track. Cap has to be an amalgam of sorts of a kid and an adult — walking that line is going to be tough and I wish you luck. Stick to telling Cap’s story — drop the Mary, Freddy, Tawky, etc. stuff. Never quite understood why DC felt the need to bring all those into the mix; Cap alone would have been enough. The others just distract from Cap.
Howzabout having Billy choose his hero’s name? Let’s face it, Captain Marvel is kind of a stupid name (and I say that being a HUGE fan of the Big Red Cheese); it makes sense to me that it’s the kind of name a kid would pick for himself, rather than being assigned the name by the Wizard.
Best of luck, and have fun!
Mark
June 1st, 2007 at 10:36 pm
John,
Okay, a couple more thoughts, should’ve mentioned these in my last post. While talking to a couple professional colleagues (and we’re in our 40s and in the legal and political fields, but all major comics fans in our youth) we were discussing what worked and what didn’t in terms of superhero movies. The answer: fans know the basic plot line and history of the character. They want to see that on the screen (i.e., Spider-Man I and II); you can deviate a little, but deviate too much (The Hulk and FF #1) and the fans turn away. We all agreed that Disney’s re-inventing of Underdog is going to sink big time — too many changes (real dog; dog is a pet not humanoid dog, etc.). (Having said that, with Captain Marvel it may be a different situation since folks don’t know the character as well). Also, one villain per movie is great (Spidey 1 and 2; 1980s first Batman movie). Start adding several villains (Batman 2, 3, 4 and Spidey 3) and the movie suffers. Just some observations my friends and I came up with over some beers, but accurate, I believe.
Best,
Mark
June 3rd, 2007 at 7:31 pm
Please, Please, Please do not do the campy version of Captain Marvel that has been screwing up his image for the past decade. Alex Ross is the only one that seems to get the character right. Is there some conspiracy by DC to keep Captain Marvel in superman’s shadow? Judd Winnick’s version really sucked and the latest monster society of evil is just downright disastrous. How many 13 yr olds make comments like “golly” or “gee wiz” come on give me a break.He is supposed to have the wisdom of solomon for crying out loud!! The artwork from lightning strikes was the best I’ve ever seen in terms of how cap’s costume looks. The long cape looked much better than the short gay looking piece of tablecloth he had been known for. The color of his costume was somewhat darker and richer. Not to mention the character was serious but not too serious and definitely not campy. As I said before, Alex Ross’s version is the best modern era cap of them all. Please consider his version of cap over the others. Or maybe even the mid 70s to mid 80s. The cap from DC’s legends of the mid 80’s was also a great version of cap.