Mongolian characters speaking Chinese
I’ve been thinking to write you this letter for a while. I saw the movie Charlie’s Angels: Full Throttle on a movie channel recently. As a Mongolian, I’m deeply offended by your knowledge about my country.
In the beginning of the movie you show a scene that something is happening in Northern Mongolia and the people in the movie were speaking in Chinese. If you know a little bit about the country you would’ve known that Mongolia has its own, unique language, Mongolian. If you wanted to use Chinese people with their language you should’ve called that place Northern China.
I’m pretty sure that you’re a young and talented writer, but if you don’t know much about other cultures then don’t use them. I’m glad I didn’t pay to see your movie.
– Toshka
The sequence you’re talking about was written in English, with Russian subtitles, because the bad guys were supposed to be Russo-Mongolian. However, when it came time to shoot the sequence, they ended up casting Chinese actors. From a production standpoint, this makes sense: the martial arts team for the movie was largely Chinese, and these are the people who would end up doing the fight sequence anyway.
This is an example of why it’s frustrating being a screenwriter. You get blamed for a lot of things that are completely out of your control: plot holes that arise from editing, crappy dialogue improvised on the set, and supposedly Mongolian actors speaking Chinese.
I’m sorry, Toshka, that the five or six lines spoken in Chinese during the sequence offended you, but I think you’re expecting way too much cultural accuracy from a movie which ignores gravity, plausibility and narrative logic with alarming consistency.
Charlie’s Angels: Full Throttle isn’t my favorite movie either, but I can easily think of five better reasons to be frustrated by it:
- Too many villains. (Four, if you’re counting.)
- The wrong kind of sexy. Flirtatious, meet slutty. Oh, you’ve met.
- The whole ring McGuffin. Where’s Frodo Baggins when you need him?
- It’s a bird! It’s a plane! It’s — huh? Demi Moore can fly?!
- Bernie Mac? Funny! I just wish I could understand what he’s saying.
I was complicit in at least three of these faults (#1, #3, and #4, begrudgingly), so I’ll gladly accept my share of the blame. But as for the Mongolian problem, nope. Can’t help you there.
Articles
April 28th, 2005 at 4:23 pm
To quote South Park.
GODDAMN MONGOLIANS!!! YOU BREAK DOWN MY CITY WALL!!!
Shame on you John.
How dare you write about giant men in “Fish”, when they are clearly not indigenous to that area of the US.
How dare you write about gay men being forced to buy Amway (or Amway like) products in “GO”. When it’s clear that Gay men have better taste, and wouldn’t be caught dead in that situation.
And how dare you write in little people for Oompa Loompas in “Willy Wonka”. When everyone knows that you can get real Oompa Loompas in Oompa-Loompa land. Where the Oompa-Loompas were persecuted by the snoswaggers, wangdoodles, and vicious kenits.
April 28th, 2005 at 4:50 pm
Huh?
It’s not surprising that foreigners become easily upset at the inaccuracies of how they are portrayed in film. Although, I’m rather quick to realize that it’s just a movie, and in this case, not even an intentional offense as the thousands of jokes made about the Fench these days…
April 29th, 2005 at 5:32 am
those Fench deserve it though
April 29th, 2005 at 8:07 am
Was that a Mongolian beef?
(rimshot)
April 29th, 2005 at 8:54 am
Although it seems petty to complain about the inaccuracies in a brief part of the film, I invite you guys to take a look from the other side:
Long post. I apologize. But the issue is complex.
–cheers Sam
April 29th, 2005 at 9:01 am
“The spell is broken, when you feel that the person telling the story thinks you don’t matter.”
Beautifully put, Sam. That quote transcends screenwriting and is applies to many situations. In fact, I’m going to put that on a sticky note and paste it to my monitor.
April 29th, 2005 at 10:19 am
I have been hired to write a screenplay that takes place in the Middle East. Assuming it actually gets filmed, the producer’s intention is to film it there (not too farfetched, since he’s already made a couple films there).
One of my research tactics was to sign on to a few newsgroups/listserves which cater to young people from these countries. After lurking for awhile, I finally came out and told people what I was doing and asked for suggestions on capturing not just the culture, but the sub-culture of young people in the region.
There were definitely comments about Hollywood getting it wrong about their countries.
I have taken their concerns to heart, however I know that I am not writing a documentary (it’s a comedy drama) and do anticipate that if the thing does get made it will almost, by definition, not please everyone. It’s an interesting balancing act. I’m trying to make it as real as I can but also realize that you can’t please everyone and we live in a world where people are quite sensitive.
Dave
April 29th, 2005 at 10:48 am
Sam:
Nicely stated. I’d like to address:
In a lot of contexts, I’d agree with you. When a disaster movie has people praying at the Taj Mahal (not a religious building), that’s annoying. I can see how that would frustrate an Indian viewer.
My issue with Toshka’s complaint was the context of the misrepresentation — if you can even call it a misrepresentation. There’s no cultural information at work here. There’s a two-second card at the start of the sequence which reads, “Northern Mongolia, near the Siberian Border.” But it’s not too much of a stretch to assume the Chinese people are speaking Chinese because they are Chinese. (For the record, I’m assuming they’re speaking Mandarin rather than Cantonese, but my ears aren’t nearly attuned enough to tell the difference.)
Question: if everyone were speaking English in the scene, would it still be an issue?
How you handle culture and language will always be an issue in cinema. The upcoming film version of Memoirs of a Geisha cast Zhang Ziyi, a Chinese actress, in the lead.
What’s more culturally insensitive: putting a non-Japanese actress in that part, or insisting that only a Japanese actress can play the role?
April 29th, 2005 at 11:31 am
John your comments on CA: Full Throttle couldn’t be more accurate. I really enjoyed CA, but the action sequences and the patch work on the ring “McGuffin” kind of left you audibly saying “Come on! I wonder if the bathroom in this theatre has an actual paper towel dispenser or the hand dryer you always end up kick starting. I’ll be back in thirty minutes.”
It’s not a real slam, you’re a super talented guy and it’s just testament about the saying about too many cooks in the kitchen. Let’s face it, with McG, Drew, Wibberly & Co and Demi in that kitchen there’s only one thing being cooked up there. MOVIE METH!
Stay off the crank kids, this is what happens.
Can’t wait to see WW.
PS: Where did Demi learn to not shoot anyone in the head? And where can I get a breakdown of Justin Therouxs workout routine?
April 29th, 2005 at 2:03 pm
I think filmmakers need to be more sensitive when depicting other cultures.
Signed,
The producers of The Golden Child
April 29th, 2005 at 3:39 pm
Re: #7 (Dave). I understand and agree with the nature of filmmaking, that it is “made up”, and is not a documentary. Dramatic license is typically an enjoyable thing. Indifference is not. If you get the basics right, the audience is happy and goes along with dramatic license in the details.
Re: #10 (John). I agree that how cultures are depicted in movies will always be an issue. However, things are not that complicated. The cultural depiction issue should only arise where the film has a point of view about a certain culture/country. And that’s a different ballgame.
But if the film does not have a point of view about the country/culture, then it should at least depict the basics accurately. I’m not talking about in depth analysis of the culture…but Arab characters speaking Arabic, for example, would be nice :).
The example of a non-Japanese playing the Japanese character is an example of artistic choice (or Star power). I don’t believe it has anything to do with cultural indifference. In fact, I am hoping that the character will be very rich, as the filmmakers would have spent countless hours understanding the nuances of the Geisha culture
The point I am trying to make is that film has become a universal language of sorts. Foreign fans watching a movie believe as much as American fans do, that the movie is “talking to them”, they relate to it. But indifference about their culture/country suddenly jolts them out of the shared experience.
–cheers Sam
April 29th, 2005 at 4:22 pm
And I always thought those are Chinese thugs in a Mongolian bar…
April 30th, 2005 at 12:10 pm
What I find most surprising is that she’s wanted to write this to you “for a while” but she saw the movie “recently.” Her ire about the movie apparently predates her actually seeing the movie. Those who nitpick must be prepared to have their own nits picked.
May 1st, 2005 at 1:28 am
hello, john, if you could please visit the charlie and the chocolate factory: uk teaser post there are some questions for u
THANZKS
May 2nd, 2005 at 12:05 pm
As a British-style man, I used to get hacked off at how many Hollywood movies depicted other British-style men as baddies.
Then I realised it’s because we’re all well-read, well-spoken and gorgeous and therefore a dire sexual threat to all the good ladies of the USA. So now I’m fine with it.
Also, Gary Oldman seems to be having a marvellous time.
May 2nd, 2005 at 1:27 pm
I’m sorry, I don’t think that anyone excluding the British have actually found any Brit villian all that dangerous. Are you guys really typecast as villians?
I thought the sterotypes cast about the British (in film & TV) had more to do with dental hygine and sexual orientation. If the British are a dire sexual threat then we better get busy and nuke Greece.
Anyone catch Family Guy last night?
“I’m almost there. Almost there.”
May 2nd, 2005 at 6:28 pm
well, i thought the question of the language was a very unfortunate - and unacceptable - lack of attention on the part of the producer, and that was it but what really got to me was when you tried to justify it saying it made sense from a production point of view. i guess if the french made a film about the states and put a canadian flag on the us embassy because they had one at hand, or they were cheaper, or anything of the sort, you wouldn’t mind? now think about it - i don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say people’s identity can have more to do with their language than their flag. and you wouldn’t like your american heroes to be acting in french now, would you (although it would certainly make for an interesting film:)
http://new-art.blogspot.com
May 2nd, 2005 at 7:07 pm
James is correct in saying that the bad guys are often played by British actors, but not only is that because the difference in accent makes the baddie non-american yet still speaks in English, it’s also because the villian is quite often a more interesting character to play. Many of the greatest characters in theatre are villians. The stereotype of bad dental hygiene and sexual orientation are usually because the writer is lazy and it’s an easy choice as everybody recognises it. My biggest problem with writers not caring enough is when historical dramas re-write history. From an English/British view U-571, Braveheart, and the Patriot are the biggest recent offenders. The general public often acquires their knowledge of history from the movies, and some loyalty to the past should be upheld.
May 2nd, 2005 at 7:18 pm
Vvoi:
I’m fighting my temptation to just let it be, but I think your Canadian flag on the U.S. Embassy analogy is strained enough to answer back.
We’re talking about a backwoods saloon in the middle of nowhere, not an official government building. If I saw a Canadian flag in a backwoods saloon in the middle of nowhere, I’d think, huh, there must be some Canadians here. I really don’t think I’d write the screenwriter to point out the “mistake.”
But that’s just me.
May 3rd, 2005 at 3:21 am
Dire. Sexual. Threat.
May 3rd, 2005 at 3:26 am
You should all stop watching movies (mind you, not including those with a sense of humor). You’ve forgotten to enjoy yourselves.
I suggest you never watch:
The Last Samurai with Tom Cruise
The Mexican with Brad Pitt
Soul Man with C. Thomas Howell
The Pink Panther with Steve Martin (who is neither Pink, nor a Panther, nor French)
Star Wars the original trilogy with the voice of James Earl Jones as Darth Vader and the face of David Prowse
and Dumb and Dumber (with neither you nitpickers or President Bush)
May 5th, 2005 at 6:24 pm
well, i believe you confuse many different things Americo but in any case don’t you worry i certainly won’t come near ‘dumb and dumber’ and don’t mind you thinking i have ‘no sense of humor’ because of it.
John, point taken - about the canadian flag being of another scale. nonetheless, i find it incredibly annoying when the spread of ignorance is tolerated. especially when this ignorance has to do with creating stereotypes. the more power you have (as a media, as a person, as an artist), the more you should pay attention to these things. of course, here you come in and say ‘man, i’m just a screenwriter’. and i agree. which does not take anything away from the plaintiff’s voice. (if you’re a democrat listening to how the world speaks about americans after the last elections, you will know the frustration - even if they talk about it in a tiny local french newspaper article about some u.s.-related topic, you still can feel insulted)
May 6th, 2005 at 12:16 pm
Saying that I confuse many different things, Vvoi, without stating presidence, doesn’t make it so. That’s like me saying that you are sexually stimulated by rhythmically slapping your balls on a deer-skinned bongo drum. Not that you may not be, but if I don’t have the album to prove it, I’m just talking out of my ass.
And according to your theory of the actual portrayl of things on film. You are really asking for stereotypes. According to you then, there are no Monguls (or is it Mongolians) who speak Chinese. There are no Muslims who speak Hindi. And there are no evil democrats here in the states. If we lived in the world that you proposed. We have all back people as gangbangers. Only people from a middle eastern descent are terrorists. All Irish are drunks. All Indians work at 7-11. And all Chinese people are good at math and are martial arts experts. You are propagating the stereotype. Now I may have taken your arguments to their extremes, but why not? It’s at least partially accurate isn’t it?
We’re not talking about how three girls could walk into an bar near the Siberian border and just wipe them all out; oh wait… nevermind
A better example, we’re not talking about a historically inaccurate portrayal of something that happened in history. We’re not talking about a film that shows Steven Seagal coming in to save the World Trade Center Buildings. We’re not talking about how Gandhi staved off his assasins by kicking their asses and thus becoming the King of All Sri Lanka. We’re talking about things that are MADE UP! FANTASY!
It’s the movies folks. Sometimes, in a film, you will get black actors who don’t talk “street”. Sometimes you’ll get Indians who don’t run convenience stores. sometimes, you’ll get British people who are not the bad guys or wizards. And sometimes, you’ll get Mongolians speaking Chinese (for whatever reasons). Either way, you’re just gonna have to let it go, because the world is an intermingled community, not cut into cookie cutter sections.
My opinion (obviously this whole response is), races, creeds, and sex do not need my approval. They do not need to be justified in any way to me because they are what they are. In truth all you will get from me is my complete and total indifference to what you are. I don’t care. Cause what you are doesn’t validate who you are to me. You’re either cool, or an ass. Life is so much simpler with that thinking, and it has worked for me so far in life, and in my writing.
June 1st, 2005 at 11:30 am
i feel whoever the screenwriter is is just making excuses having all the Mongolians in the movie speak chinese is clearly an error especially because you could have got on the internet and found out mongolians speak mongolian in about three minutes. Then you could have bought a Mongolian english dictionary. These days moviemakers spends days and tens of thousands of dollars to get one scene right why couldn’t you get the one scene about our country right it wouldn’t have been hard
part of the reason its so offensive is that Mongolians have struggled to stay indepeandant of China and keep their nomadic culture alive in the modern world to have a movie which is seen by millions of people most of which know littel or nothing about mongolia is offensive to me
The AngRY MONGOLIAN!!!!
June 1st, 2005 at 1:07 pm
Okay, done.
People have expressed their opinions, some more eloquently, some more emotionally. I think no one in this thread seeks to increase the amount of ignorance and/or intolerance in the world.
The question is, to what degree should filmmakers feel responsible for portraying cultural accuracy — and does that burden change based on the kind of movie you’re making?
As you’ll notice, I’m not trying to dodge the issue by saying I’m “just the screenwriter.” Yes, it’s often frustrating that I get blamed for things that aren’t my decision at all. I wrote those scenes in Russian, not Chinese. I didn’t write them in Mongolian. The Bad Guys weren’t meant to be Mongolian in particular; they were meant to be Bad Guys, and to me, Russian made sense in the context of Charlie’s Angels.
The irony is that this debate over what language the men are speaking wouldn’t exist if the title at the start had read, “Northern China” rather than “Northern Mongolia.” Change eight letters, and the point is moot.