John August

Scriptnotes, Episode 711: The State of Pitching, Transcript

Scriptnotes Transcript

The original post for this episode can be found here.

John August: Hey, this is John. Standard warning for people who are in the car with their kids, there’s some swearing in this episode.

Hello and welcome. My name is John August, and you’re listening to Episode 711 of Scriptnotes, a podcast about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters.

Today on the show, we’ll discuss trends in pitching both film and television. We’ll also discuss whatever happened to single women sitcoms and answer listener questions, ranging from getting that first job to characters playing other characters.

In our bonus segment for premium members, we’ll talk with our very, very special guest about what she learned making the long-awaited sequel to her hit film. Our guest is Aline Brosh McKenna.

Aline Brosh McKenna: Hi.

John: I’m so excited to see you. I haven’t seen you in months and months.

Aline: I can’t remember the last time I saw you.

John: I don’t know.

Aline: Incredible.

John: This is your 36th Scriptnotes appearance. Champion.

Aline: 36 out of 711. What’s that?

Drew Marquardt: Oh, no.

John: It’s a big fractional number. It’s a rational number.

Aline: It’s not 10%. It’s 5%.

John: Yes, about that.

Aline: I love it. Proud.

John: Yes, it is 5%, almost exactly. That’s some good math in there. I like it. Last time you were on the show, you had only written one Devil Wears Prada movie, and now you’ve written a whole second Devil Wears Prada movie.

Aline: That’s correct.

John: You’ve actually made this movie now. In the bonus segment, we’ll talk a little bit about what it was like being back on the set for that. Also, last time you were here, there was no Scriptnotes book, and now there’s a Scriptnotes book sitting in front of you. You have the galley copy of a Scriptnotes book.

Aline: She’s gorgeous.

John: Yes.

Drew: [chuckles]

John: There’s even a chapter with your name on it, which is-

Aline: Ugh, so excited.

John: -a chapter about screenwriting based on the 30 or so appearances you’ve had on Scriptnotes.

Aline: Amazing. You took people and then you amalgamated their thoughts?

John: Yes. They were answering questions that we were talking about on the show and just sort of zhuzhed and cleaned them up a little bit just because people don’t talk the way they would write.

Aline: That’s right.

John: It’s just a little bit edit for clarity and conciseness.

Aline: Amazing. I can’t wait. I like to read stuff like this. I like to listen to the podcast. I like to read things like this. I feel like even though it’s become a more social environment because of social media and because we all know each other now in a way we absolutely did not 20 years ago, but I still– When you get together with your screenwriter friends, it’s not that often that you dig into craft, a little bit more goss than the craft. I like craft stuff. I’ve obviously learned a lot of from this podcast, so I’m excited to dig in.

John: First half, two-thirds is craft stuff. Back half is the business and notes, and all the other parts about putting together a career, and also an appendix, which is the history of Scriptnotes in there as well. Something for everybody. The list of other guests who are in there besides you is terrific as well. You hear everyone from Greta Gerwig to Christopher Nolan to other super smart–

Aline: Chris Nolan and I are always doing the same stuff. You know what I mean? Everyone’s like, “Chris and Aline, Aline and Chris.”

John: You can’t tell them apart.

Aline: No. It’s always like where he goes, I go. No, this is an incredible list of folks. This is exciting. I will read this.

John: Cool. I will sign your copy today, but you can get a signed copy of the actual hardcover, the good book, at our live shows. We’re doing it at Dynasty Typewriter yet again.

Aline: I know. I’m out of town.

John: Oh, it’s November 30th at 3:00 PM.

Aline: I know. I can’t make it, but I did preorder.

John: Fantastic. Thank you very much.

Aline: I actually preordered it on Amazon, but I’m also going to go get it at our local bookstore, Chevalier’s.

John: Absolutely. Chevalier’s will be our bookseller sponsor for our live show there. As we’re recording this, there are still tickets available. The episode just came out, so you didn’t get a ticket. Sorry, but you can still preorder your book.

Aline: I will be listening.

John: All right. Let’s talk about single women sitcoms. This is something that Mike and I were discussing as we were getting ready for bed one night. I mentioned a show. I think it was Just Shoot Me!. I was like, “Wait a minute, who was the star of Just Shoot Me!?” Then we were thinking about Caroline in the City.

Aline: Suddenly Susan. That era. Obviously, Mary Tyler Moore.

John: Veronica’s Closet.

Aline: Rhoda was my fav.

John: Let’s talk about this as a genre because the four I was mentioning were all like the mid-‘90s. I can find an article about the women of Monday Night. They’re all NBC sitcoms that are always on the same block of this. It’s Mary Tyler Moore. That’s the fundamental template here.

Aline: Yes. There’s been a paucity, for sure. Before we get into the why’s of that, who knows why anything is happening in the business anymore? Someone sent me an article that Dick’s Sporting Goods is going to be making content. It’s a whole new world. Before that, I don’t know what– I’m just going to make every character some sort of different– everybody will be holding a different stick.

John: We should probably explain that block of four sitcoms because it’s a very specific ‘90s thing, which our younger listeners may have no idea what we’re talking about.

Aline: It’s all post-Friends era. It’s all around Caroline in the City. They often had women’s names in them. The inheritor of that mantle was New Girl, which ran for a very long time. I’ll tell you a funny thing, which was, I had started as a screenwriter. Then I went into TV with Jeff Kahn, who’s an incredible writer. We did a bunch of pilots together. One of the first ones we did was based on when I graduated from college, I lived with three guys: an actor, a musician, and a guy who became, I believe, a lawyer.

We wrote a show about that because we were broke. We were right out of college. The apartment was disgusting. I don’t know how men go through so much toilet paper, but I was always going out for toilet paper. It was about being 20-something Gen X. We wrote it for Disney. People liked it, but it didn’t go. Then we were trying to find another place to do it. It ended up being the last episode of Margaret Cho’s show. Margaret Cho had a show called All-American Girl, which was a groundbreaking show.

Obviously, Margaret is an incredible talent and just sort of an iconic stand-up. She was a very young woman. She had this show about her family. The network was wanting to pivot into a show where she was exploring her 20-something life. They took our pilot, and they made it the last episode of Margaret’s show. It was a woman living with three guys, and they’re broke. It’s funny because it’s out on DVD. You can’t stream it anywhere, but it’s on DVD. I went back and watched it recently because I had watched– this is one of my mother’s stories. I had watched Mariska Hargitay talk about her mom, and she’s in that pilot, so I wanted to see it. Anyway, one of the main dilemmas–

John: I want to note for one second. It’s like a classical thing has just happened where there’s a story nested within a story nested within a story.

Aline: Yes, it’s nesting. What happened is that the whole pilot is about them trying to get their phone turned back on so that she can find out if she got a job. There’s a lot of going to pay the phone bill. There’s so much anachronistic stuff. I’m going to just say one more anecdote, and then we can talk about script stuff. We wrote this pilot. We were waiting to see if anyone wanted it. Jeff was friendly with David Schwimmer, and we knew Jen Aniston. Anyway, we got invited to the pilot they were working on, which was also an ensemble show. Jeff and I were at the taping of Friends. I was at the taping of Friends.

John: The original pilot of Friends?

Aline: The original pilot.

John: Incredible.

Aline: It was amazing.

John: I’m sure it was amazing. James Burrows is directing it.

Aline: All those people. We knew Matt a little bit, too. We knew Maddie a little bit from before. Jeff and I looked at each other. We were like, “We’re screwed.” I think that, to me, there’s been a little bit of a trend of coming-of-age stuff that’s a little younger. They’re a little bit more like those things of a young woman, like The Summer I Turned Pretty. Obviously not comedies, but I think Outer Banks perhaps has some–

John: [crosstalk] I do hear what you’re saying. I want to see if we can draw a little bit of a line between– just because it’s around a female character, it’s a little bit different than some of this group of four and the Mary Tyler Moore.

Aline: That’s right. You’re right.

John: Because the Mary Tyler Moore show, if you think about it, her family is the workplace. We do see her at home some, but the family is really the workplace. That was really what’s so notable about these four sitcoms is that they were all in the ’90s. You have a successful single white woman in this glossy office surrounded by these kooky work friends who are her work family, basically. That is the premise of the show. A reason why I think you’re so relevant to this conversation is they’re all magazine adjacent.

Aline: Yes, media vibes.

John: They’re media vibes.

Aline: That’s also a rom-com thing where everybody’s working at a magazine and up for a promotion. You’re right that those stories have– Girls is not quite that. Girls is one of my favorite shows. Girls is a your friends or your family show, but the workplace stuff is all separate.

John: I want to posit that 30 Rock is an explosion, a popping the balloon of this.

Aline: That’s right. Liz Lemon is the spiritual inheritor, for sure, of Mary Tyler Moore, done in a more contemporary way.

John: Murphy Brown was the CBS version of it, where you have an older single white woman doing that thing and her work family.

Aline: Abbott Elementary, I would say, is that.

John: I think that’s a very good point. It’s very ensembly, but to the degree that Quinta is-

Aline: The heart.

John: -the heart, the central character, and it’s a work family, you can sometimes leave that space. Sex and the City is, in some ways, the work, the HBO version of that. The work environment is a little bit less featured. It’s more the friendship, but it does that.

Aline: I will say, this seems like we’re here to plug it, but I Love LA just premiered, directed by Lorene Scafaria, who we both know.

John: Starring and created by Rachel Sennott. It is incredible.

Aline: Yes. Again, it inherits the mantle. It always has to take on the cultural trappings of the time. I remember watching an episode of Suddenly Susan, and Brooke Shields was wearing bootleg pants. It was the first time I’d seen bootleg pants. Bootleg pants are fitted all the way through, and then they flare at the end. That’s the pants everyone wore through the ’90s. I remember seeing them on Brooke Shields and being like, “Where do I get those pants? Where are those pants?”

Sitcoms really set the tone for so much of what a female was in the way rom-coms did, which was like a certain kind of hairstyle, a certain kind of look. When we went to do Crazy Ex, Rachel and I had this debate about whether it should be shot in a verite way. What should the default style be? I think she leaned a little bit more indie film. My argument was that the default style should be ingénue.

Ingénue is musical theater, those ’90s rom-coms you’re talking about, rom-coms where it’s like she’s a little prettier than she should be, she doesn’t have bags under her eyes, her hair’s always done, her accessories are great, and there’s a little bit of wish fulfillment and living vicariously through somebody who’s clearly gone through an hour and a half of grooming.

John: You made the right choice, Aline. I want to specify this. I think Crazy Ex-Girlfriend would be the example of this kind of show had it been more focused on her legal career in the law office, had it been a little more Ally McBeal and less her home life and her wild romantic life and all the detours she takes there. It blends the two really well together, but like with Suddenly Susan, it is centered around one character who has come into a place and is surrounded by loony people.

Aline: I Love LA in a funny way. The workplace is sort of inseparable from her personal life because her friend is an influencer, and her boss comes to her birthday party. It is kind of a funny thing now where, for young people, their public and their personal life are very meshed because you’re looking at pictures of people’s personal and professional life on their social media. I think there’s much more of a sense that those things are one and the same. I think there was more of a sense of like, I put on my curling iron curls, and I go to this workplace, and that’s where I come of age.

Obviously, the big daddy of that one for me is broadcast news. I do feel like it’s partly the decline of single female rom-coms goes hand in hand with the decline of single female comedies. I do think that when they make them, I don’t know how I Love LA did, but I thought it was successful on the terms it set out for itself.

John: I would say that Emily in Paris is another example of a contemporary version of that, where-

Aline: Yes, very much.

John: -it’s a glamorized, romanticized version of being that young person in a media world, in this case, in Paris.

Aline: I have a slight theory for you, which is, I think that reality TV has slightly taken the place of this. During the strike, I started watching all of The Kardashians. It took me, I’m going to say two years, because there are 20 seasons, and then 7 seasons on Hulu. It’s an ensemble comedy, I would say, strongly featuring Kim and Khloé. I don’t want to neglect any of the other major players there. For a lot of the show, I felt like those were our leads, and they were different.

I think that dating shows, Love is Blind, I think those are teaching people how to date. It’s interesting. I just saw Reese on Dax’s podcast, talking about the fact that romantic comedies used to teach people how to date. It made me think that, now, reality shows– she may have said that. I don’t know. I listened to the clip on TikTok, obviously. I think reality shows are now teaching people how to date, which is terrifying. Frankly terrifying.

John: It’s performative behavior in order to just sell a storyline.

Aline: It’s funny. The first season of Bachelor, the first season of Love is Blind, the first season of these shows, first season of Survivor, the first season of whatever, when they don’t know the format, you get pure human behavior. Everything after that is–

John: There’s a meta quality to everything.

Aline: Yes. They’re just marketing themselves, and they’re already thinking about their cosmetics brands and whatever. I think in their purest forms, those reality shows teach us how to act. I got to say, enjoyed every minute of The Kardashians. I really loved it. It was the perfect thing to do over the strike. I do think that we have moved some of our discourse about how to be a human into that, and then also into Instagram, which is also a little terrifying because, again, that’s filtered through a bunch of things. There’s a level of artifice in these sitcoms and rom-coms that we’re talking about as well. Interesting.

John: Let’s talk about the practical implications of this because there used to be a lot of shows. These were sitcoms that had 22 episodes per season times 4. It’s just hundreds of episodes available to write for these female characters in comedy. Those were obviously jobs, but they’re also, you talk about how they’re training about what–

Aline: How to behave.

John: How to behave, how to aspire–

Aline: Parks and Rec was another one. Parks and Rec.

John: Absolutely. That’s both–

Aline: Mindy Project.

John: Mindy Project, exactly. They came a little bit later, and so they’re responding to the tropes of the genre. They were really helpful, I think, for people to think about what it’s like to do this. Weirdly, because we don’t have those as models of, you should go to New York City, you should go to Los Angeles, and enjoy this life. I wonder whether that’s partly responsible for this retreat away from the big cities or–

Aline: When we did our pilot, which was called Young Americans, the idea was that they were broke and that they couldn’t pay their telephone bill, and they had a rat living in the pizza box. Because the Gen X thing was, we went and we rented not-great apartments in the Lower East Side. If I think about it, that was all relatively affordable. We split an apartment that I think cost– I’m going to say that it was $1,800 for three of us or something like that. It’s just the affordability. We’re talking Election Day. The affordability aspect of these cities. I think the cities that are exploding, and I think I’d love to see more shows set there, is like Reno and Detroit and Omaha and these smaller cities.

John: Denver and Austin.

Aline: Yes, Nashville. These are places that are attracting young people with an easier lifestyle. The problem with sitcoms right now in our business is, I just don’t know, you sound like a dinosaur anytime you talk about this, but guys, they used to order 100 scripts and shoot 20 of them and pick up 7. It just doesn’t work like that anymore. There isn’t this sense of we’re making a smorgasbord for everybody. It’s just very, very targeted.

John: Looking back to those four examples, they were all taking women who were movie or TV stars and centering them in the middle of a sitcom. They don’t do that now. Grace and Frankie, to some degree, was that you could argue that some of the Apple comedies are taking male stars and doing the same kind of thing, like shrinking. What is shrinking about that?

Aline: Ted Lasso.

John: Ted Lasso is not that.

Aline: Right. Ted Lasso is also your work, teaching you, being your forum for moral growth. Listen, I love workplace stuff. I’ve written a lot of stuff that takes place in a workplace. It’s funny because we’ve talked about this on the podcast before, but yes, I understand I write romantic comedies, but in some ways, your coming of age doesn’t happen there. I think of romance a little bit more as– It’s a little bit more of a game. There were times, certainly, where it felt like musical chairs.

For me, a lot of what I learned about myself were through my friendships in my 20s and 30s and then through the workplace. That’s really coming at me. Because I think I’m very interested in how people come of age, I think work is a natural venue for that.

John: What’s also nice about these workplace comedies is that while romance is part of it and there’s tension, also because they’re TV shows, it’s not meant to be fulfilled. It’s always meant to be a thing that you’re pushing off. They’re always going on dates, but they’re never settling down. That’s an aspect of it, which is–

Aline: Yes, there’s always a challenging thing when people either get married or have a baby on these shows. It’s a challenge. Obviously, Murphy Brown had caused a little bit of an uproar. As you move people through their life phases, it’s interesting. I worked on a movie about a working mother, and I was in that phase of being a working mother, and it was so gripping to me. Then, two years after I was out of that phase, I was like, “I can’t remember what any of that was like.” People would be like, ‘When did you wean your second one?” I was like, “I don’t know. I don’t remember. It doesn’t matter. You’ll figure it out.”

I think coming to a city, figuring yourself out, you’re right, I think Ted Lasso’s probably the most successful one. I think that’s just always going to work in some way, shape, or form. I just think the workplaces now, we’re just so much more cynical. They’re so much more corporate. It’s hard to think of doing WKRP in Cincinnati without somebody constantly saying, “Oh, they called us, and we got to do this, and we got to do that,” because everybody is sort of laboring under these giant corporate systems now.

John: Well, let’s think about practically for our listeners, if they’re thinking about writing a pilot or they’re thinking about something as a writing sample, I do feel like this is a missing genre, a missing piece. It’s a question of like, what is the sample that you could do that’s in this space that would actually break through? Because it’s not going to be a three-camera sitcom, probably, because we’re just not used to it. We’re not making it anymore, so it’s going to feel weird on the page, likely.

There’s probably something about that sense of a female-centered workplace comedy that is new and interesting and different. It could have a broad city vibe, but in a workplace thing. There’s a way to do it. The Rachel Sennott show may be the example of what this is, but it’s a space that could use more writing. Anything you write in that space is probably a really good sample for Aline starting our show.

Aline: Listen, I’m hungry for comedies in general. I think we’ve scooped the bottom of the pool, and that was a sound, and we skinned our knees on the bottom of the pool. I feel like comedy is starting to come back. I miss comedies across the board because I try and find things to watch with Will at night, and it’s like the number of things that you watch that start with a teenage girl running across the forest all bloody, and she’s about to be murdered. My God. It’s a Swedish show, and it’s a South American show, and it’s whatever show. I’m like, “Here comes a teenage girl, this poor thing, running through the forest, and then we’re going to talk about her murder for 10 episodes.”

I think when they work, nobody wants this. Will and I watched the first season and really enjoyed it. The other show that I think is a great rom-com is The Diplomat.

John: I love The Diplomat.

Aline: I love The Diplomat.

John: We’re watching the second season right now.

Aline: Oh, wait until the third season, if you like that relationship, it’s a ripper. They’re awesome.

John: It is the third season now. We’re early in the third season, but it’s–

Aline: I got to say, for me, that’s like Gable and Lombard level, but contemporary banter between Rufus and Keri’s character. I just think that she’s really tearing it up. That is true. I feel like now I’m finding comedy elsewhere. I thought Weapons was hilarious. Hilarious. A very biting satire about what it’s like to live in the weird house in the suburbs. I feel like we all felt like our house was the weird house in the suburbs, and had the newspaper on the windows in some respects. I definitely think that comedy is creeping into other genres.

John: That’s also why I feel like writing a great comedy sample right now is really helpful for staffing on a diplomat or other things, too. Yes, you want to be able to write smart, but those writers are funny writers who also can write very great, detailed character work.

Aline: Yes. I think Matt Bellamy was talking about this because it’s also in the animated movies are really funny. You can’t make a Pixar movie or a Disney movie that doesn’t have jokes in it. It has migrated.

John: The criticism is that everything is funny and nothing is a comedy. It’s like we’re not making comedies, per se, but our Marvel movies are really funny and joke-filled.

Aline: That’s right. You mentioned Marvel, too. I would just love to see what it really is like to be dating now. I think I’m looking for my Harry Met Sally or Girls, I thought. I really think that’s one of the great fucked-up love stories of all time. Hannah and Driver’s character, whose name was Adam. I am really hungry for show me how people are dating now that’s different and interesting. Again, what I know about it is from reality shows and TikTok.

John: Let’s say we are now ready to pitch one of those shows in the world. It’s different now than it’s been 5 years or 10 years ago. We have a question to set this up.

Drew: Reaia writes, “What content is necessary in a pitch deck? Is it just the story and why now of it all, or is there something else that I’m missing?”

John: Here we’re talking about pitch decks, but we need to go back 20 years ago. Aline, pitch decks were not a thing.

Aline: [laughs] In fact, if you brought anything into the room, it was very odd. God, we were just entertaining them with our faces.

John: We were just entertaining them with our faces and our words.

Aline: And our arms.

John: What changed was the pandemic. There were a couple of times where I’d bring in boards of artwork and show some stuff. In general, you were just sitting down in front of an executive in person and describing the movie and doing a little tap dance. With the pandemic, we moved to Zoom for things. Instead of just staring at the people, sometimes you would have slides that you would show during this process. That’s one form of pitch deck, which is the things you’re showing during a pitch.

There’s another thing that Reaia may really be referring to, which is something I’m sure you’re familiar with, which is the nicely produced thing that talks through the show that’s independent of the actual pitch process. Either you’re saying it ahead of time or afterwards, that’s also a pitch deck. It’s confusing that they’re using it for both. Have you done that for any of the things you pitched?

Aline: No, I don’t think I’ve ever sent over materials that wasn’t a script. The interesting thing about migrating to Zoom is that, in an ideal world, it’s more entertaining for people because you have things, pictures to look at. The funny thing was, back in the day, and John and I can discuss later who did this, but I’ve had people fall asleep with it. I’ve sold a lot of pitches, but I’ve had people fully sack out while I was talking to them, especially if it was three o’clock.

The contemporary version of that is people looking at their phones while you’re talking. I just feel like if you could put your phone here, up eye level, or just look at the thing on your screen so that you can– because it’s a little harder to clock the eyeballs, but the full look down. Then we had someone pitching something that we were producing, and the gentleman that we were talking to was vaping, which I don’t think you would do if someone was in the room. I don’t know that you’d be ripping it with a vape.

John: No, I wouldn’t.

Aline: Then later, I said to him, “Hey, I feel like it was a little disconcerting.” He said, “Oh, it was my camera on.” It’s good to know if your–

John: Camera is on.

Aline: I would say, in general, it’s good to know when your camera’s on.

John: Learn to look for is the icon, what the status is there, yes.

Aline: I have always pitched a lot. I have sold a lot more pitches than specs. I don’t know why. I’m not a huge performer. I don’t go in there and do something fancy. I think there’s something about talking through the idea and about going with the vibe of the person that you’re talking to. A great deck that you’re using as you’re talking takes the onus off of you to be as word-perfect. I have learned, which I didn’t know, as I produced more things, some writers have been told to read, and they read. Reading in a room probably works better than reading on Zoom, which is rough.

John: Let’s talk through some of the pitch deck first. Let’s talk about the pitch desk that’s for when you’re on a Zoom. That pitch deck, maybe it could be five slides, it could be–

Aline: It’ll probably be like this. It’ll be like, here’s the idea, bang. Here’s four comps, bang. Here are the characters. Here’s the pilot. That, I try and do as fast as I humanly can because that always is like– and then here’s where the series is going. For each of those, it’s so easy now to find these images that go with– you can carry the tone.

John: Absolutely. We’ve recommended on previous episodes, ShotDeck is a really good utility for finding images from movies and TV shows. You can search for and find things that match your style. Images that you’re showing while you’re giving a pitch on Zoom, those slides should not have text on them, basically. You don’t want people reading what’s on your thing. It’s an image that–

Aline: Unless there’s a joke.

John: Yes. If it reflects what you’re saying, so they’re paying attention to your words that are being spoken, rather than what’s on the screen. In terms of reading, yes, you should not be looking down to read. The hack that everyone, I think, now does is you actually have your text up very close to the camera, so you’re actually just scrolling and reading off of that, and so you’re keeping eye contact.

Aline: We pitched with writers before who were very, very nervous, and they can turn everybody off, so they’re not looking at their faces. You didn’t have that option when you went in person. A lot of weirder things happened in person. You couldn’t find them. They were busy and kept you waiting. Something weird was going on in the office. People were sacking out. People were eating. More inappropriate things.

Now, I was younger, but also, people– I’ve told this story before about going into a room largely pregnant, and an executive said to me, “I guess today would be a bad day to punch you in the stomach.” I don’t think he would have said that on a Zoom. I think Zooms are like you have a sense that almost like you’re being recorded or it’s on a record. I think you build real relationships when you went in person.

John: You do. There’s executives who I’ve been on 10 Zooms with, as we’ve pitched various places. It’s a piece of IP that we’re pitching in various places, and I still don’t really know them. If I traveled into a room to accompany with them and so we’re doing the chitchat in the lobby, I feel like I knew them better. When I finally do see them at a Christmas party, it’s like, “Oh, wow, you’re nothing like what I expected.”

Aline: Right. Their shape is always there. One of the things that’s really giving me the giggles is Zoom boxes. Everybody’s face is nicely framed up. In the beginning, people were like, you had their dirty socks in the back or like a murdery window or whatever, but people got that under control. Then they moved to a thing where they would have their whole team, so the whole comedy team, the whole drama team, and they put a camera. Have you done this?

John: Up on the wall at the worst.

Aline: They put a camera high up in the– It’s always high so that you see everyone. What happens is, then the Zoom box is very small, so then you’re pitching to three ants on a sofa, and you can’t see their faces. You have no idea– Zoom box, you can really see how it’s going. A wide shot, a super wide from a high angle of a sofa. We once had a Zoom with a management company, and they had 16 people, and the camera was up there, and so there were people introducing themselves, looking backwards. No, go to separate offices. Yes, I know the owl.

John: This is the solution.

Aline: Yes.

John: The owl is a good solution for that. I’ll talk about this in the future. I think that’s a wonderful thing. Let’s talk now instead about the kind of depth that is a sales document for your show that is independent from what the actual Zoom presentation is. This is something that is really common in one-hour series development. I did it for a project that we’ll hopefully set up soon.

Aline: It’s a separate from your pitch?

John: Yes. I’m going to show you an example of it.

Aline: A lookbook?

John: A lookbook. Oh, yes. A lookbook is a similar thing. I can’t tell you what this one is, but-

Aline: I’m looking at it.

John: -this one is an example of–

Aline: You send this to them. Well, directors do this a lot.

John: Yes. This actually has a lot of text, unlike a slide deck that you’re showing during the Zoom. This is a thing that’s meant to be read.

Aline: Like a brochure.

John: It’s a very nicely done brochure. In this case, the studio hired me to write this and hired a designer to design it. It was a whole thing, so that as we were approaching people with the script and this, they could see this is the script, this is what the thing, the show feels like.

Aline: That’s right.

John: That was very useful.

Aline: Yes, that’s very useful when you’re sending in a script. Right now, I think sending cold scripts, it’s really helpful to have something like that, which is a lookbook or tone book, basically, that goes with it because people are now used to these pitch decks.

John: Let’s talk about what’s in this thing, which is very typical for these kind of decks you’re turning in with something. First, it starts with a note from the creator, the show creator, the person behind it. This is why it matters to me, this is why I want to do this, and also the why now at all. This is why it’s a show to make in 2026. A bit about the history of the project. If there’s any IP underneath it, that’s where you talk about how many units it sold, what a big deal it is.

Then you get into the characters, and this is a chance where you actually can show your sample image of the kind of actor who would be in this role, and stuff about them. You’re going through your main characters, your supporting characters, giving a sense of how everybody connects the big themes of your show, what are the tensions. Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, you can imagine that deck would be talking about who is Rachel’s true love and what this is, but also, this is a show that’s about the absurdity of that question and the tropes of that question.
Then you go through your Season 1 overview, notable events in it, future seasons, and then a closing statement. This thing I did for this project was 30 big pages of this with big images, but it’s very useful.

Aline: This is also a “show to your boss” item.

John: Yes, for sure.

Aline: Because when someone says, “Hey, John August, I read a script,” and it comes to the lookbook, and then if that guy doesn’t want to read the script even, he’s got a thing to look at.

John: A sense of what the show is. We say show because it’s not really a thing you do for movies at this point. I wouldn’t be surprised if, down the road, we get to this for movies.

Aline: We pitch our movies, we always have a deck, but we don’t have a book. As a director, you do.

John: As a director, you do, or a reel.

Aline: I will say, one of the reasons I think you need to do this, John, is because when we were coming up, it was like, “Is it Suddenly Susan? Is it a cop show?” There were such well-worn grooves to what things were. So many of the successes now are so out of the box that Stranger Things is as much about the vibe as it is about the story. I think because everything is much more bespoke and sui generis. You got to tell people what it is.

John: Stranger Things had a great deck, too.

Aline: I think it did, yes.

John: We can probably find a link to that.

Drew: It’s online.

John: It’s online. You can look up that– It gives you a sense of what is going to be unique and special about that show. There probably was a script already for people to look at, but the script tells you what’s happening in the pilot. It doesn’t give you a sense of what the show is meant to feel like overall. Let’s answer a listener question. I want to start with this one, which is an epic one, but I think probably will resonate with a lot of our listeners.

Drew: “My name is Sam, and I live in LA. I’m 34, a father of a two-month-old, and I almost applied for the USC Screenwriting MFA. I’ve been writing for 10 years now. I’ve queried and networked. I’ve applied to the mailroom at every major agency and every entry-level job at every major studio. Nothing. I’m not looking for a big spec sale. I’m not completely delusional. I’m not even looking to get repped. I’m just looking to get my foot in the door as an assistant and eventually get an opportunity to be a writer’s assistant, then eventually maybe get staffed and so on and so on.

I want to start at the bottom and pay my dues. I don’t have a formal education in the business, so I need to learn. I’m told AI is replacing writer’s assistant jobs in TV, so I’m not optimistic about that route. Other assistant jobs seem impossible to get if you don’t know someone. I assume you guys find your assistants via word of mouth. I’m curious. Would you ever take a flyer on someone who isn’t already an assistant? All signs point to no.

I almost applied for the MFA at USC. I figured I could get some formal training and network at the same time, but at $100,000, this feels like an insane choice to make, given how I now have a child’s education to pay for. I’m thinking about paying an Etsy witch to give me my big break. That feels like it would be just as helpful as everything else I’ve been doing. I understand that this business sucks right now, but what the hell do I do? Obviously, keep writing, but what the hell else do I do?”

Aline: What’s this gentleman’s name?

Drew: Sam.

Aline: Well, I talk about this every day because I have a lot of young people in my life: my kids’ friends, my friend’s kids. I feel that Sam probably has a ton to offer the world and is very bright and very creative and very interesting. Right now, there’s just not enough runway. I really have always been if you build it, they will come person. I had this exact thing. I had an assistant who was really fantastic. He really went above and beyond. Then he left to work on an independent movie. When he got back, I tried to get him a job, help him get a job, and I could not find anything for him.

My concern is that writing is getting to be a little bit more like acting, where if you can withstand it, then that’s really most of the game. Writing used to be like if you wrote something good, you could wiggle in somewhere. I don’t know that that’s the case anymore. It’s a little bit like– I used to say there are no great undiscovered screenwriters, but I don’t think that’s true anymore. I think in the same way that there are many undiscovered great actors, many, I think there are now many undiscovered really good writers who would have slotted right into the system 20 years ago.

My concern is, I just think that people have a lot to offer the world, and that if this was my kid, I would say, “Go have a conversation with the world.” That’s what you’re doing when you’re a young person is you’re saying– For example, I started out writing broad comedies, and the world was like, “Maybe not.” Then I wanted to write half-hour TV, and the world was like, “No, I don’t think so.” I would have experiences. Well, magazine writing was first, but then the minute I started writing grounded comedy, doors started to open.

It was a conversation that I was having with the world about here’s what I have to offer; here’s what you have available. Unfortunately, what I see is happening now is these kids are hitting tennis balls over the net, and no one’s hitting them back in the business. The thing that people are doing, as my young assistant is now doing, is he’s producing his own movies. He’s raising money. He’s making $2 million, $1 million, $2 million movies. He’s making stuff.

If you can make stuff, make stuff. I want to know for Sam, who now I’m the auntie of this baby, I want Sam, who’s probably a really, as I said, smart, interesting guy, I want him to go where there is opportunity. Right now, writing is a skill that can take you anywhere. Truly, if you’re a good writer– My husband works at a mutual fund, they always need good writers. Probably not what Sam wants to hear today, but writing is a skill, still is a skill that is very important in a lot of businesses, and being able to understand what type of writing is going to support a business or contribute.

I’m worried about the only circumstance in which I really encourage people to stay at it is if it’s someone who can withstand it, who can live in a small apartment, who can work a side hustle. I have a couple of friends like this that I can say, okay, hunker down, stay on the bus, and you’ll get to your stop. As Sam’s now aunt, I want Sam to be somewhere where he’s fully appreciated and doesn’t have to worry so much about where his next paycheck is coming from.

John: I had two conversations at the Austin Film Festival that feel really relevant to that. One of them was with a guest who was on stage with us, there with Anthony Sparks. Anthony was talking about his transition from being an actor working on Broadway to start working in this industry. He was older and already had a kid, just like Sam already had a kid. It was always a struggle. Am I going to be able to get in and stay in? He was doing his academic career at the same time.

It worked for him, but he also had to construct a life that was going to be really great and meaningful, even if the Hollywood part hadn’t worked out. Sam, at 34, now with a kid, needs to be thinking about both of those things. You can still pursue your Hollywood dreams, but that shouldn’t be deferring all other things until the Hollywood stuff kicks in. You and I have both been in this business more than 20 years, and a 34-year-old starting in the business was always tough. The assistant track, the assistant way in, was for kids right out of college. Early 20s, mid-20s, you could do that. Being an assistant at 34 is tough, and moving your way up there.

I had another conversation at the opening night party with a guy named Brandon Cohen who’s sold two comedies recently. He’s probably about the same age. He just sold specs. Specs are selling. They’re comedy specs. He wasn’t trying to go through any side door. He’s just like, “I’m going to write specs. I’m going to keep writing. I write fast.” He sold them, and it happened. That may be the more real estate path, honestly, for Sam, is for his writing.

Aline: It’s much more of an actor model where we’re accustomed to actors teach yoga, and they work at restaurants, and they’re graphic artists. For writers, it used to be like, oh, you’re going to come here and in your 20s, you’re going to find a way to support yourself writing. I think it’s becoming more common to even be working as a writer and selling things, and then also being a Pilates instructor.

John: Doing test prep and doing all the things that writers do.

Aline: That’s right. Test prep. It’s just a question to me of, can you withstand it? By withstand it, I mean not get all the stuff you want at Trader Joe’s and take the smaller apartment.

What I’m sad about is that we used to wick people into the system in a completely different way. The flip side of that is, and we’ve talked about this before, but I think some of the best comedy, and I heard Judd say this somewhere, some of the funniest stuff is on your phone. I mean, the people who have had opportunities to be funny on TikTok are unbelievably funny, and they don’t require a dime to do it. Again, as your auntie, I don’t know where that’s getting you diapers.

John: Is it going to springboard you into the traditional Hollywood careers that Aline and I have had? I don’t know. Those other paths may lead you to another way that’s actually fulfilling and doing interesting stuff that can pay the bills, and you love doing. I would just say, I worry that over the course of doing this podcast, we’ve talked about such a traditional way in, which is you move out here, you intern at a place, you get hired on as an assistant, you work your way up to another thing. Eventually, someone notices you and you get started writing. That does happen, and it probably still does happen, but it’s not a realistic path for a lot of people.

Aline: Also, because a lot of people came in through TV and those jobs, those shows that we were talking about earlier, where it’s 22, 25 episodes, and basically that could be your whole life, and you could be like a professor, take the summer off in between seasons. People get jobs, it’s eight episodes. They’re taking whatever pay is being offered to them. They have to get three of those a year.

Even that, even getting staffed, which used to be like Victory Dance, you’re in, and I don’t want to be gloomy. I just want all the young people to be in spots that really appreciate them and where they can use their maximum power. I would say, in the conversation with you– I had a friend say to me, “Make sure that your dream is something that still exists.” We were talking to somebody who wanted to be a novelist, and this person was saying, “There is no Saul Bellow and there will never be another one.” There are no novelists who set the tone for us culturally anymore because we have other things that do that.

Make your dreams, things that still exist. There’s a lot of beloved occupations, things that I love, like journalism, that are really rough right now. I don’t want to be discouraging because to me, to be discouraging is like, well, you’ve hit the end of the road. What I want to do is be encouraging and say, “If you’re a smart, capable young person, the world needs you. It’s just Hollywood might not need you in this moment.”

John: You mentioned journalism, and your son is an example of a kid who really loves journalism and went into journalism and found a program that got him into working at a newspaper doing the grunt work. It was a very classic path. Some of those classic paths are still open, but it’s also a classic path for a kid just out of college who could eat ramen and do these things. I want to make sure that we don’t mistake advice for people who are 22 years old versus 34 years old with a kid. The different paths are open to them.

Aline: That’s right. Again, I feel like there is still opportunity. It just may not be in studio films and television. It might be elsewhere, and maybe you’re going to make an independent movie, and it’ll get noticed, and then you can make weapons. I think it’s a call to the entrepreneurial. In some ways, it favors the people who have privilege, as we’ve discussed before. I’m not happy about it.

For many years, I was always able to help my kids, not my actual kids, but my friend kids, kid friends, get into the business and get them started. I am at the limit of my powers. I want people to be realistic and start thinking about, do I want to take those talents and go to games, which are booming? Do I want to write for another kind of entertainment? Do I want to write live events, which are booming? Do I want to understand AI better? Do I want to understand technology better?

So many businesses have gone through that. That’s why every musical artist we know is touring. Again, part of this conversation you’re having with the world is that it goes, you know what? There’s not a lot of chairs left here. Let’s go somewhere else where there are chairs, Sam. I bet you that there’s something that Sam could do that would be both fulfilling his creative drive, but also would make him feel like he could get some money in that 529.

John: Let’s have one more question. This one’s from Alex in Missouri.

Drew: “The screenplay that I’m writing involves a stage play. Throughout my script, several of my characters play different stage play characters. I’m curious how I should title their names in the script when they’re in-character, so to speak. Should I include the stage play name in parentheses next to the character name, or just simply leave it as just the character name, or something different altogether?”

John: The thing I’m writing right now has exactly this situation. What I’m doing is, if there are characters who are really actually not important in the outside or the offstage or not important, I just use their onstage name. If it’s Romeo and Juliet and there’s Tybalt, I’m just calling that kid Tybalt. Then, if there are characters who it is important who they are as the two different people, I’m putting their onstage name in parentheses afterwards so we can remember who it is. Oberon would be Mark (Oberon), so we know that he’s speaking Oberon’s lines there.

Aline: My guideline for is it confusing is are you confused? I am often confused. I don’t pick up on things that quickly, actually. As a reader, I write the way I read, which is if it’s like– I would write Romeo/James or James/Romeo, and then I would say, out of character now, James, and then I would say, back in character as Romeo. These are directions, a recipe, and if you had a recipe and it just was like, hey, some reasons, you’d be mad.

I think I have written some good scripts and some not good scripts, but I don’t think I’ve written confusing scripts. If you don’t like it, you got it before you didn’t like it. I really think that one of the biggest mistakes people make is thinking about it with their brain that knows and trying to read it through the eyes of someone who has no idea what the fuck is going on, which is everyone, except for you.

John: Absolutely. Again, ambiguity is confusing, and confusing is death for someone who’s reading a script. You want them to be intrigued, you want them to be curious, but if they’re just confused, they’re going to stop reading. Anything like this that’s going to make it simpler for them, don’t worry about it. Just remember, you are limited on the page because on screen, we’ll be able to see, oh, it’s the same guy. I think we see faces, but sometimes not.

Aline: Sometimes I am like the classic middle-aged lady watching a TV show, looking at my husband or my kids and going, who’s that one? Who’s that one? Is that the guy who did the thing?

John: Who’s that one? That’s Game of Thrones. House of the Dragon, I still have no idea what anyone’s name is. It’s like, “That guy.”

Aline: Wait, John, here’s the thing. My whole life, whenever anyone’s like, “Well, I just have to tell Claudine Jones about blah-blah-blah.” I don’t care if you have said Claudine Jones on every page of your– every minute that I [unintelligible 00:50:33] I do not know people by their names. I don’t. Ted Lasso, maybe. Even if you said Ted, I think I’d go, “Is there a Ted on this show? Who’s Ted? Wait, his name is Ted, huh?”

John: Same with Survivor. We watched Survivor.

Aline: Oh my God, I watched Survivor. I don’t know. It’s shirt guy. Hat guy, doctor, lawyer.

John: Exactly.

Aline: Guy with his balls hanging out.

John: Amy will ask about, like, “Oh, well, when–”

Aline: 100%

John: When Neil said that, I’m like, “Who is Neil?”

Aline: [laughs] Before Survivor gets down to six, when it’s at 12, during the merge especially, they’re like, “I’m very worried about John.” I’m like, “Who the fuck is John? I don’t know who that is. I have no idea.” I think never underestimate. It’s funny because I just haven’t come out of production. You know, when you’re in production, you think you’ve written it super clearly. Then someone asks you a question, and you’re like, “Wow, I wouldn’t even have anticipated that you read it that way. It’s so interesting. Even when you’re trying to be your most clear, it can still be confusing.

John: It’s time for our one cool thing. My one cool thing is on the wall behind you. It’s what’s called a big-ass calendar. The big-ass calendar is a thing I’ve been using the last couple of years. It’s a giant wall-sized calendar. It’s four feet by three feet. Every month is just one line on it. It can really give you this chance to see the entire year all laid out in front of you. It’s really helpful for vacations.

Aline: Yes, and blogging. Now, let me ask you a question because people have been talking about this on TikTok. Drew, I need your answer too. When you picture the year, some people picture a clock. Some people picture a calendar. Look at your face. Some people picture a calendar. What do you picture? When you picture a year, do you picture that?

John: I probably do picture a big ass calendar.

Aline: I picture a grid.

John: Drew, what do you picture?

Drew: I picture a calendar, but it’s in three-month chunks.

Aline: A lot of people say that. I do not. I picture months going by like a river, and I can pull it backwards or forwards, but January’s over here and December’s over here, and it rolls in front of me like a measuring tape. That’s a perceptual thing. It’s similar to how some people can picture things, and some people can’t picture things.

John: Also, anthropologists will study different cultures and say, “Where is the future?” The future’s always either in front of you or to your right in most cultures. Occasionally, some cultures, the future is behind you, which is just a strange thing.

Aline: This allows you to get a sense of the shape of your year. Absolutely.

John: Absolutely. It’s a big-ass calendar. It’s just giving you a sense of the overall flow of things. I’ll put sticky notes on there for important dates, like kid home from college or trips, or vacations. I’ll use paper spike tape to mark off Austin and Film Festival and things like that, just so you know what the roadblocks are ahead. It’s also good as you’re starting a project to say, “Oh, I have 12 weeks to write this. What does 12 weeks actually look like?” I’ve just found it so useful. I just got my 2026 calendar. I’ll be replacing this one, and I’m excited.

Aline: It helps you with the thing of like, oh, it’s November.

John: Yes.

Aline: Which really happened big time this year.

John: It did.

Aline: This year was a real big like, “Wait, what happened? Why are we in the middle of November now? What the hell happened?” True.

John: I don’t know. It’s my fault?

Aline: My one cool thing is I got this off Instagram. I sound like a teenager. I’m talking about TikTok and Instagram. There’s a company called RAREFORM, and they make bags out of old billboards.

John: I’ve heard of this.

Aline: They’re quite pretty. You can pick the color that you want. The reason that I’m obsessed with this is because I am not a backpack gal. I don’t like the way it feels, and I find that it’s just I don’t like the way it lays out spatially. Look at this guy.

John: It’s gorgeous.

Aline: I got the absolute biggest one, which is also a carry-on, a plain carry-on. You can abuse this thing. You can stuff it full of stuff. I found, look how big that is. That was my onset bag. It was great for a number of reasons. I can get a script in there, a computer in there, clothes. I always had clothes, a big water bottle, everything I needed for the day. It could also be a little bit of a garbage can when I was tired, just zip that thing.

Then it also was good because it was identifiable. It was like a Leans bag. There was a Leans bag. If I left it in the way, which maybe I did once or twice, they could always just throw a Leans bag somewhere. It’s not like a precious item. I don’t really get backpacks, and I don’t enjoy them. These RAREFORM bags are really good, and I really use the crap out of that one.

John: I have a backpack, my everyday day pack is 20 years old. It’s made of Cordura, and it is flawless. It is not damaged at all. It’s going to outlive me for sure. I really like the idea of this RAREFORM bag because the vinyl that they use for outdoor ads is really durable, because it has to be, because it has to stand up on those billboards for months at a time. It’s a great second use of that.

Aline: I love it.

John: Cool. That is our show for this week. Scriptnotes is produced by Drew Marquardt. It is edited by Matthew Chilelli. Our outro will be sung by Aline Brosh McKenna. If you have an outro, you can send us a link to ask@johnaugust.com. That’s also the place where you can send questions like the ones we answered today. You’ll find the transcripts at johnaugust.com, along with a sign-up for our weekly newsletter called Interesting, which is lots of links to things about writing. You’ll find clips and another helpful video on our YouTube. Just search for Scriptnotes and give us a follow. Aline, have you checked out our YouTube videos at all? We have some really good ones now.

Aline: No.

John: We have things from previous episodes, but they’re cut with the footage of the guest’s movies. The Christopher Nolan one is really good.

Aline: Wait, I did see one.

Drew: We have an Aline one.

Aline: Oh, okay.

John: You should watch the Aline one.

Aline: Wait, what about TikTok, Drew?

Drew: We’re on TikTok.

Aline: Okay, you are. Great. There’s people who scroll YouTube before they fall asleep, and there’s people who scroll TikTok. I think it’s a bit gendered. I think the dudes watch YouTube. I think the men in my family are big YouTube watchers, which I haven’t fully gotten there yet. Certain things, I’m a very early adapter and some less so.

Drew: I think it’s one or the other, but we’re looking to get more on there. Keep an eye on it.

John: You can find us on Instagram and TikTok @scriptnotespodcast. We have T-shirts and hoodies, and drinkware. You’ll find us at Cotton Bureau. You’ll find the show notes with the links to all the things we talked about today and the email you get each week as a premium subscriber. Aline, thank you, in person, for being a premium subscriber. You’ve been there from the very start. You’re hearing all those bonus segments.

Aline: I love it.

John: You keep the show going. You can sign up to become a premium member like Aline at scriptnotes.net, where you get all those back episodes and bonus segments like the one we’re about to record on.

Aline: What’s that old ad? I’m not just a member. I’m a client.

John: You are.

Aline: Remember that ad? It’s for hair.

John: Sure. Aline Brosh McKenna, thank you so much for coming back on Scriptnotes. It’s so nice to see you again.

Aline: Scriptnotes.

[Bonus Segment]

John: Love it. Fantastic. Aline, you were gone for months and months and months and months because you were making the sequel to Devil Wears Prada. We’re not going to spoil anything. We’re not going to talk about the movie at all.

Aline: I’m not going to say anything interesting.

John: I want to talk about just the experience of going back to, here’s a property that you wrote the first time you loved, but you can’t step in the same river twice. You’re a different person than you were then. Just compare a little bit the experience of being a writer who’s getting this big movie made based on a book. Let’s recapture what we know about the book. The original movie is based on a book written by-

Aline: Lauren Weisberger.

John: -Lauren Weisberger. You are writing the screenplay for this, working with the director.

Aline: The first time?

John: First time.

Aline: It was a Fox 2000 movie.

John: Fox 2000, that’s right.

Aline: In the heyday of that, when they just had jam after jam after jam.

John: We should explain Fox 2000. Fox 2000 was a sub-label at Fox that was focused on a lot of book adaptations. You would say female-oriented was more commonly their mandate, whereas Big Fox might have been making Predator.

Aline: We were in a run of, Prada came out around Walk the Line, Life of Pi, Family Stone, and then I made another one, 27 Dresses, and those were all signature Fox 2000 thing. The funny thing about the first movie is that I was 36, 37 when I got it, and I felt like the oldest hooker at the ranch. I really did because I had gotten here when I was 22, 23. It took me 15 years, guys, to have my first big success. It was my third movie, and I’d shot several pilots, but it was the first big movie.

I was scared to death most of the time because, for some reason, I always had a sense that, well, honestly, the minute we cast Meryl, I was like, “This really could be something.” Then it’s similar to Crazy Ex in the way that it was like, launching pad for a lot of people, and it was like a seminal thing for a lot of people, so it has a family feel to it, and the way that Crazy Ex is like, that’ll always be a family of origin for me. Prada’s like that, too, because we were all 20 years younger.

One of the things that I think is interesting is that a lot of the reboots and redos and sequels and prequels, etc., the impetus came from the studio. This was not the case on this one. This came from I had started a couple years ago to talk to David about what I thought this could be, and separately, the producer of the first movie was talking to the actor Sam. Then it was like we all decided to go to the studio and say, “We have an idea.” We did all of this before we vetted it with them and say, “we have an idea of what the story was.”

John: We should notice that it’s a whole different studio because Fox 2000 had been shut down, but then Fox itself got absorbed into Disney. It still exists as an independent entity, but it’s really going to be a Disney decision whether to do this.

Aline: That was unusual because Fox 2000 had basically moved to Sony and become Sony 3000. Elizabeth’s over there. We were at Big Fox, but Big Fox is now under the umbrella of Disney. It’s two studios. What’s cool about it is sometimes when you get an assignment, it feels like an assignment, and it might feel even like an assignment to the viewer.

I’m hoping, my hope, and I, of course, I have no idea, was that this really came from, hey, I think there’s another chapter to be told here, another story to be told. It came from the filmmakers and the actors and the producers, and all the squad from the original movie. It’s shocking. There are so many, almost all of the department heads, most of them worked on the first movie. Almost everybody. A lot of people. A couple people are not with us anymore, but in those 20 years.

John: Not just fans of the original film, but folks who worked on it.

Aline: Oh, yes. Same production designer, same DP. Yes. [unintelligible 01:01:49] what I was saying was I didn’t feel young because I was 36, 37, 38, and I had two kids and I was married. Now I look at someone who’s 36, 37, 38, and I’m like, “Oh, what a baby. Little baby.”

John: It’s Sam getting the advice.

Aline: “You’re just a little baby.” What’s funny is I was the younger member of the brigade last time. I’m still the younger member of the brigade, and I don’t really get to be the younger member of the squad much anymore. That was enjoyable. The actors also, they all kept in touch. They’re a family. Then adding new people, new young people, was really wonderful. It’s this thing that we’ve talked about here before, which is when I first got to Hollywood the first 10 years, I was so frustrated by how little you make things. Will said to me, “Yes, you didn’t come out here to be in the document production business.”

When you get to go and shoot something, first of all, the process of coming together and sort of– The characters are like family to me, too. I’m a fan. The first time that Meryl, Stanley, Emily, and Annie walked out together in wardrobe, I peed myself a little bit. I’m a fan. I was really excited to see the four of them together. To me, that’s like my Avengers. I had moments like that that I just was like a lot of pinch myself moments.

John: I also want to talk about you also. You were a younger, less experienced writer at the time, but you also have had so much more experience. Now you’ve run an incredibly successful show. You’ve directed movies. You’re coming onto this project and onto the set with just so much more background.

Aline: I was a producer this time. There was four people on the producing team. I got to be a producer this time. That was really nice. It ameliorated the scared shit list from the first time a bit too, because I was sort of at the meetings. I was on the first movie, too by virtue of how inclusive David Frankel is. This time, I really got to be there in every stage of it as a producer, and sometimes to pass along thoughts to the writer. About like, we really can’t do that, or that doesn’t make any sense.

John: [unintelligible 01:03:58]

Aline: Yes. One of the funny things is, first movie, I met David Frankel and we went right into working together. I didn’t know him at all. I sent him an email really early on, which I’ll post someday, which was like, “Hey, man, if I’m being too opinionated and sassy, just tell me to shut up. I can be adjusted.” One of the early things he said to me, which really made me trust him, was whatever. “I love how opinionated you are. I love how passionate you are. Whatever you got, keep it turned up to 11.” That is very much the spirit of my collaboration with David. It’s like he wants to hear the ideas. That was the most welcoming.

The funny thing is, I didn’t know him. I was getting to know him. It was really a blind date. Now it’s 20 years later. We’ve been friends for 20 years. It’s funny. I haven’t really found the right word for us. It’s sort of like if you and I were to work together, our relationship is not live. Do you know what I mean? When you’ve known someone for so long, it wasn’t like– I posted a picture of myself riding a horse, and David was like, “You rode horses? How did I miss that?” Because we’ve known each other for such a long time.

There was a nice relief in that of like, you can tell me to fuck off or whatever. We can have really open conversations because we have that history there. I think everyone felt that incredible sense of history. I have never worked on anything that anyone cared about while we were making it, except for maybe the TV. We had fans on Crazy Ex. We were just also the least-watched show.

John: You guys had niche fans.

Aline: So niche. That’s been the wildest thing.

John: There were constantly paparazzi photos of things and spoilers.

Aline: People know these actors really well because they’ve all done extremely well. People know them really well, but they also know the characters really well, and they feel connected to the characters, too. That’s an interesting thing. I feel like we’ve reached a point where– I think there are people who think Miranda Priestly is a real person because especially when she came to the fashion shows, I feel like if you were only mildly following this, you’d be like, “Oh, yes, she’s that lady, and she’s an editor.” Some of that has to do with the super iconic look that she created and was created with her team. It was Old Home Week.

John: This is your first-ever sequel, right?

Aline: To this?

John: Yes, first sequel you’ve ever done. Have you done it?

Aline: Yes, first sequel I’ve ever done. Lauren did write a sequel book, but it’s not based on that. It’s a new thing. It’s a new story with these characters. It’s funny. I don’t know if you feel like this when you ever go back to something, but it felt like opening up a dollhouse and being like, “Oh my God, I remember this doll and this doll and this bed and this thing.” Then you’re doing new and different things with that.

John: You’re always mindful of what the original story was and how it all forced, but you have to be focused on this is the two hours of time we’re spending here.

Aline: For sure. They’re 20 years later, and we’re 20 years later. I know what a 20-year span is in everyone’s life, which is why some people ask me what it’s about. What I can tell you is it’s not a heist.

John: It’s these characters 20 years later.

Aline: Yes. Here’s the thing. I know that we all have feelings. We all have fiefs about the reboots and the sequels and the prequels and the whole thing. The movies I love from the ‘30s and ‘40s, if it worked, they made 10 of them. They just kept remaking them. In a sense, even though those Hepburn and Tracy movies were not remakes, it’s the same thing. You’re recombining people. You could probably create a universe where all of those Hepburn and Tracy movies are in the same universe.

I don’t think I have that sense as much of like, “Oh, this already seems exhausted.” In my mind, it’s not so much the ‘80s and ‘90s sequels, but it’s more like in the ‘30s and ‘40s, if something worked. They made some version of My Favorite Wife 10 times. I think that, to me, revisiting, especially because we have a chunk of time here that you’re curious about these people, and I was curious about them. You know what? I feel grateful.

John: My only sequel was Charlie’s Angels. It was tough doing Charlie’s Angels, in part because it was after the huge success of the first one to go back into the second one. There was a lot of energy and momentum, but we were still just finding our feet after the first one. It was tough going into it. It was very much a live ball. Over the years, I had conversations about, “Oh, if we were to do a new Charlie’s Angels, what would that be like, and what would the experience be like?” That’s the fun of it, to figure out, oh, who are these characters now? What is it like? What would the story be? No announcements happening here.

Aline: Well, I think that would smash. Lucy is in product. Just to imagine, I grew up loving Charlie, the original Charlie’s Angels, and I was just looking at pictures of Jacqueline Smith, who looks incredible, like really incredible. I think, as you get older, you get really nostalgic. I was driving up to your house, and I was like, “God, I have known John along time. I’ve been driving up to this house for a long time.” You definitely feel that nostalgia. I think that I want to know what the girls from Charlie’s Angels are doing and who’s had their hip replaced.

Charlie’s Angels, to me, is a great movie star movie in that it was as much about being those women as it was about–

John: It’s hard to believe it’s 25 years ago today, as for importance.

Aline: We followed Drew, and we followed Cameron. We know where they are.

John: We still have them.

Aline: We’ve seen them. To see them back in that, and that’s the cast of Prada too, we’ve seen them in a million different Rubik’s Cubes variations. By the way, if they had ever made a reunion TV show with Kate and Jacqueline and Farrah, and Cheryl, and whatever, I would have watched every second of that. [chuckles] Although the Farrah, Cheryl, then there was also Shelley Hack, Tanya Roberts.

John: I love them all, honestly.

Aline: I loved them all.

John: Angels.

Aline: Do it.

John: Do it. Thank you, Aline, and thanks for coming back.

Aline: Thank you.

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