The original post for this episode can be found here.
John August: Hello, and welcome. My name is John August.
Craig Mazin: My name is Craig Mazin.
John: This is Scriptnotes. This is a podcast about screenwriting, stuff that’s interesting to screenwriters. Craig, how are you today?
Craig: Good day today, I think, so far. How about you?
John: Good. Productive? Were you writing today?
Craig: Yeah, today I was actually sitting with Todd Phillips, breaking story. Now I’m going to have some dinner after this, and then I’m going to write.
John: That’s a very lovely day. I got six pages done today, so I feel productive.
Craig: Six pages is a good day.
John: Six pages, I will sleep well tonight.
Question for you. When you get an email from somebody you don’t know, do you google them?
Craig: It depends on the content of the email. [laughs] But if it intrigues me in any way, yes.
John: The reason I ask is because I wanted to start today with a question, and it’s clearly a genuine question. This person put in enough work to the question that I don’t think that this was any sort of scam deal or anything. But as I looked up this person’s name — I didn’t recognize it, so I googled it — it came up as an adult film star.
Craig: Oh, cool.
John: I don’t think it’s actually the adult film star who was emailing me. But it’s a person who, because of the nature of the question, chose to use a handle, which was the adult film star thing, so that I wouldn’t actually print it. But of course, it was a female adult film star, which I would have no idea if it was actually a female.
Craig: Well, if you said the name, I would pretend that I didn’t know it.
John: Oh, very nice. That’s the lovely thing about an audio podcast, is no one can see your facial reaction.
John: I’m going to choose to name this person Tina, which is not the name that originally came on the email. Let me read it to you:
“About a year ago, a manager from a reputable company contacted me because they were a fan of my online videos.” Which, I presume, were not adult videos. “I agreed to work with them. Unfortunately, this manager also represents people with lots of IMDb credits — big people, mostly actors though, a few writers. Over the last year it has become painfully obvious they have zero time for me and have put zero effort into helping my career get off the ground.
“Any general meeting I’ve gotten over the last year has been a direct result of my own efforts. I am beginning to realize that this manager and I don’t agree on anything creatively. Their notes are contradictory and vague. When they’re not, I find them to be flat out wrong.
“My question is, if I cut ties, I’m back to square one with no other representation possibilities on the horizon. At the same time, this manager has made it clear I’m last on their list of priorities. Even if I weren’t, the difference of opinion on everything seems counter-productive. Is it worth just keeping the manager or risk going it alone?
“I’ve actually spoken to my manager about this. I asked him if he had the time for me. He said if I didn’t, they could maybe pass me along to someone a little lower at their company who would be able to champion me a bit more.” It’s a confusing note. I think it’s actually the writer saying that, so, the writer suggesting that. “And they said, ‘No, no. I have the time. Don’t worry.’ Well, I’m worried.”
Craig: This is, talk about a softball question. 90 percent of the question is really an explanation of how poor of a job this manger is doing and how bad of a fit they are, and then 10 percent is generalized anxiety disorder. [laughs] The answer is cut ties, of course.
John: I may disagree with you on this.
Craig: Let’s go. Let’s do this.
John: I don’t want to be the serial monogamist of these relationships, but I feel like it may be a situation where she needs to find the next manager before she leaves this current manager. I don’t know that being free and clear and floating in the Hollywood ether is going to help her any more than being with a manager who, while not helping her, isn’t an anchor in any way to her.
Craig: Well, here’s where I would disagree. It is difficult to switch representation without actively trying to do it. That is to say, without actively trying to get a new representative. It’s a very small community. As bad as a manager may be at their job, every manager seems to be amazing at sniffing out when their clients are trying to leave them. It becomes difficult to do a full-court press on your own behalf.
If there is any opportunity that this writer has to find a better manager, that opportunity doesn’t disappear simply because they don’t have this person. This person’s literally a zero. That’s what the question stipulates. In my mind, I think by cutting ties you give yourself every opportunity to get out there, do a full-court press and not run into anybody that said, “Oh, well, I would but your manager is a friend of mine,” or, “We share a client,” or, “I don’t want to poach.” Just get rid of him. I don’t know, that’s my feeling.
John: Devil’s advocate, I will say that there’s other people who this writer could be bringing into his or her team who may be helpful, and the manager could actually be an asset getting them to it. I feel like you maybe go to your manager and say, “Hey, look, I really want to try to find an attorney. Can you give me some suggestions of people I can meet with who are good attorneys?”
It could help open the doors to some of those things which aren’t a huge burden on the manager’s time. Then you have a pretty good attorney, and then, when it’s time to leave this manager, you have a pretty good attorney who can help make the next set of connections.
Craig: But it’s difficult to get an attorney if you’re showing up with no opportunity for lawyering.
John: That’s true. You’re not going to get a lawyer unless there’s actually some contract to negotiate.
Craig: Right, and that seems to be precluded by this relationship. I don’t know, I guess the underlying sentiment behind my advice here is that we as writers tend to project an enormous amount of power onto these representatives, fueled by our own anxiety that we will never love again.
But the truth is you’re not being loved now. It’s a bad marriage, get out of the bad marriage. Look actively and wholeheartedly for a new marriage. You found this person, you’ll find another one. I also feel like a bad manager is worse than no manager, because while you have your bad manager, you’re hamstrung and you can’t do better.
John: Okay. Craig, you are going to leave this manager. You’re going to advise Tina that she should leave this manager. What does Tina say to this manager?
Craig: Really simple. You call the manager up, no need to make a big production out of it. You lead by saying, “Listen, I made a decision to let you go, I’m going to end our professional relationship.” You start with that, right off the bat, really dispassionate.
Just say, “Unfortunately, things haven’t quite worked out the way I would’ve hoped. I had a certain series of goals for the two of us, they haven’t quite gelled, I’m sure you would agree. We’ve been together for X amount of time, it hasn’t resulted in employment, and frankly it just doesn’t seem like you have the time for me or the attention that I would’ve hoped. The decision is final, but I do appreciate the fact that you took a shot with me to begin with. I wish you nothing but the best, and I hope you understand.”
John: That sounds reasonable and mature and grown up. I will say that when I left my first agent, I didn’t have that level of sophistication. I felt the need to actually pick a fight, and be able to have the reason for why I was leaving.
He was genuinely a friend, but he was just simply the wrong agent for me to be with, and so I felt the need to pick some sort of fight that he wasn’t doing a good job with me, so he would get angry with me and therefore I could angry with him, and say, “I think I need to go find another agent.” The whole time, I had actually already started the whole process of figuring out who I was going to meet with next.
Craig: Right, that works. Look, the most important thing is that whatever method you employ, you employ it post-facto to the decision. You don’t use this breakup speech to build up to the decision, you lead with it. The decision should be unilateral, it should be a fait accompli, and then you roll out your dismissal plan.
John: What I just realized is that I led this conversation with talking about googling people, and I just googled my old agent yesterday. I was curious because someone said, “Whatever happened to him?” And I didn’t know what happened to him, and he’s fallen off the radar.
Craig: You mean the Google radar?
John: He doesn’t seem to exist in the last several years.
Craig: Is it possible that he never existed and this is like A Beautiful Mind thing?
John: That would be kind of amazing if he never existed. [laughs] You go back through all those old contracts and those phone calls, and you see the other side of it, and I’m just talking to myself. I basically rented this empty office, and I would go there.
Craig: This is the moment where Agent Kujan drops his coffee mug on the floor. [laughs]
John: So another thing that came up this week, I had been working on a very long post that I finally posted on the site called Workspace. I was blatantly ripping off another site called The Setup, where they talked to people — mostly creative, geeky people, technology people — about what computer programs they use, what hardware they use, and what they like and what they don’t like.
I did the same thing for my daily work habits, which is where I write, when I write, the hardware I use, the software I use. I get a lot of those questions piecemeal, and so I decided I would put them all in one post and put them all together so there was a way to look at gestalt, this is how I’m putting together my daily work.
I thought I’d go through the audio version of that with you right now. I’m going to start interviewing some other screenwriters about their workflow, and I have three of them lined up already. I have you here on the speaker, so I thought I might ask you about the stuff that you’re working on.
So: what is your daily workflow? When do you start work and when do you stop work?
Craig: It depends on what the task of the day is. If I’m in the mode of breaking a story, then I’m kind of — I’m pretty loosey-goosey about it. If I’m working with somebody, then it really is an external imposition. Be here at this time, let’s sit down for two or three hours, and work it through.
If I’m on my own, I just wait until that moment happens where I feel the level of procrastination has gotten insufferable, and then I try and marathon — no, that’s the opposite — I try and sprint, and jam in a day’s work in two hours, which often works. If I’m struggling at my desk, I’ll go take a walk, and if I’m struggling on the walk, I’ll go take a long shower. Whatever it takes to solve the story problems, I will do in a very fluid way.
John: I know you have an office, which we talked about in previous podcasts as an important way to get out of your house and to get focused on work, but do you travel? In my post, I was talking about barricading. And I’ll often go to some city — a lot of times it’s Vegas, but this last time, last week, it was Boston — and lock myself in a hotel room and just generate pages. Is that something that’s helpful for you?
Craig: I’ve never done it. But it sounds cool. Anything, I mean, the value of that, it would seem to me, is that it jars you out of your everyday routine. It’s a funny thing to sort of ask a writer, “What is your routine?” when so often, routine is the enemy of creativity. So, I love that you kind of do that. And I try and find my own ways of jarring myself out of it. Sometimes I will join the rest of the ranks of struggling screenwriters out there and go sit in a coffee shop and let the white noise of the chatter force me to kind of get going.
Anything that works, I guess, is my philosophy. And it seems like you kind of have to change it up every now and then. I mean, even you, even if you have a set pattern of “I go somewhere and barricade myself in a hotel room,” it’s a different place. So, you know, it’s not always the same place. I think that’s smart.
John: Well, with the advent of the iPad and with laptops and that stuff, it’s just, it’s so easy to take your distractions with you. And so, for this last trip, I took my laptop just in case there was, like, a huge disaster on the website that I needed to address, but I ended up never opening it at all. And I saved the iPad for only doing Facetime to call home.
And so, my structures I set for myself is, I can only be writing or I could be reading on my Kindle. And I’ve got, like, the $79 cheapest Kindle that can’t do anything other than, like, show you a book. And it ended up being a good combination of bouncing back and forth, because I was either focused on this specific scene, or was reading this book that I kind of wanted to read for a long time, but when I got tired of reading that book. I was back to doing the actual writing that I needed to write.
Craig: Yeah, you know, you’re talking about this incredibly important aspect of the solo writer, which discipline. And we are constantly disciplining ourselves, tricking ourselves to do this thing that is difficult, annoying, psychologically taxing at times.
Inevitably, once you get going, the momentum takes over. And there is a real momentum to this. There is a momentum to not writing, just as there is to writing. But to jar yourself out of one state into another requires some kind of traumatic intervention. And part of that is eliminating all those things that keep you from not writing.
People who have partners, of course, they don’t really have this problem. I mean, I like working with other people as much as I can, because it relieves the burden of the self-discipline.
John: The nice thing about Big Fish, the musical that we’re working on, is that Andrew Lippa, the composer, he and I have to get things done at a certain time. And he’ll be depending on me to write the scene that the song goes in, and I’ll be depending on him to write the song that the scene needs to hold. And because of that, there’s a social pressure to actually get stuff finished. Which, as a solo writer, you just don’t have as much.
So, we end up having to set either artificial deadlines for “I will not go to sleep until I’ve written five pages,” or if we end up promising things to producers or studio heads or whoever else, that we will turn in a draft by a certain date, even if it’s an unrealistic date, so that we will feel pressure to get stuff finished.
Craig: Yeah, you need something like that. I mean, one of the things I’m doing right now is producing an animated film, and talk about all hands on deck. I mean, that’s such a big…in animation, development really is production. So, there’s already scores of people working on this thing. And knowing that, you really can’t mess around. A lot of people are sitting around waiting.
That’s why writing during production’s the most fun on live action stuff, because you’re there on set and you know that in about 10 minutes, they’re going to be rolling. And the adrenaline does wonders for writing, so it’s like, somehow or another, you have to make your own adrenaline when there is no external pressure on you.
John: I like to pretend that I’m actually writing not a feature but a TV show and that it’s a pilot that’s going to be shooting in three weeks. And that is, sometimes, it’s a good kind of pressure, because it forces me to be a little less precious about it. “This scene must be perfect in every way, that has to be the best version of this scene that could possibly ever exist.” No, it actually has to be shootable. And as long as it’s shootable, I should go on and write the next scene. That’s sometimes a luxury.
Let’s talk about hardware. What are you writing on these days?
Craig: A MacBook Pro. That’s my axe. 15-inch screen. I used to have that 17-inch screen, because I thought, “Why not have the biggest possible screen?” But then, you’re like, the thing’s like an airplane tray, it’s just too big. So, 15-inch is great. And then, when I’m in my office, I plug it into a cinema display and an external keyboard and a track pad. So, that’s my tool.
John: Now, have you gotten used to Lion’s use of track pads and, like, the scrolling in reverse and all that?
Craig: You know, it’s funny, I was just thinking about that today, because I have. It took, they said, “This’ll take two days for you to realign your brain.” No, it took a month. But I am definitely realigned. And, it’s funny, I was watching Todd today, because he’s not on Lion and he’s scrolling the other way and his, it was freaking me out.
So, it’s true, your brain does finally switch around. Now it makes total sense to me and I don’t — because, for a month, I would go the wrong way, and then go, “Oh yes, right.” And then go the right way. But now, yeah, I’m totally good.
John: When I got back from a trip in Boston, I’ve been using both my MacBook Air — which has a track pad in there for the Lion scrolling which makes a lot of sense because a track pad and that kind of scrolling makes very good sense. It feels like you’re pushing the paper around — but my main computer is a MacBook Pro tower and I use a special, bizarre, vertical mouse that has the little track wheel and for that it’s always felt completely wrong to be doing the Lion-style scrolling. But for whatever reason I got back from Boston and I hadn’t used the computer in a week and it felt right to use the Lion scrolling, and so suddenly I can do it.
Craig: It’s an amazing thing how we can retrain our brains. I think Apple basically they’re such control freaks they’re like, “Look, people are moving their hands one way on an iPad and they’re moving them another on a computer and that’s a problem for us. We’re just OCD and we need everybody to be moving their fingers always one way.” I don’t necessarily buy into the whole “It’s better this way!” It’s not, it’s just a direction. But once again Apple wins.
John: They basically did it to confuse my mom. My mom will probably call me in tears at some point because they’ve changed and ruined and broken something.
Craig: “John, the pages are moving the wrong way every time!”
John: If I could only get her to just give up her computer and go to an iPad I think life would be so much happier but they scare her too. We’re all basically tech support for our parents at some stage.
Craig: Yeah, my father-in-law is the best. My father-in-law famously…I got him to switch over to a Mac. And this was years and years ago. I think it was in the pre-Jobs phase. I think it was in the Performa era and they had these little reset buttons on them in case things would go wrong. He told me they had a problem with the computer, it wasn’t working anymore, and I had to fix it.
So I came in and basically what I discovered was that he had somehow, this was back on System 9, he had managed to create… He had a system folder, of course, but inside the system folder was another system folder and inside that one was yet another system folder.
So he had nested system folders, which I’d never seen before, and obviously I’m booting off of another disk at this point, and also his reset button had been jammed in to the point where I had to physically pry it out because it was constantly resetting the computer.
I said, “Bill, how did this reset button get jammed in violently?”
He’s like, “I don’t know.”
“Well, I know.” [laughs]
John: I remember there was one era of Macintosh where the reset button was actually a clip-on thing on the outside of it. It fit into the little grooves on the track.
Craig: I remember it well.
John: Wow. Things are so different now.
Craig: So different.
John: Now, software-wise we’re doing very different things because I’m mostly using Final Draft and you’re mostly using Screenwriter, or at least you have been.
Craig: Yeah. At this point I’m almost completely bilingual both mentally and in practice because Philips uses Final Draft and this animated movie uses Final Draft, so I’m Final Draft with those projects. Then this thing I’m writing for Universal is just I’m on my own so I’m using Movie Magic.
Although I have to say I got a tweet the other day from this guy in Toronto who built this new screenwriting app called Fade In which I think it looks fantastic. I emailed him and gave him a few suggestions for some features I thought would be easy enough to add. I’m actually going to get on the phone with him because I love this thing. I just think, “Wow, here’s a chance where I could actually get in literally on the ground floor and help a guy get a third better way out there.”
John: Now, I believe I’ve tried every screenwriting app out there. If I remember Fade In correctly it’s probably based on Adobe Air. Is it both on PC and Mac simultaneously or is it just a Macintosh program?
Craig: There is an app for PC and also an app for Mac.
John: So I think my objection to it was that because it’s using Adobe Air there’s a little bit of a typing lag and the typing lag drove me crazy.
Craig: I did not notice that. I’ll check with him and see if that is the software you were looking at. It didn’t appear to have any lag at all and it didn’t appear to take particularly long to load. What I loved about it, at least at first blush, was that it presented you with a gray background and then the page sort of floated on that background.
So immediately a lot of distractions just went away. It was very elegant looking and it was laid out in a very modern way. Final Draft really suffers from being a legacy application. I used Final Draft back when you had to drive over to Santa Monica and pick it up from…
John: The Writer’s Store?
Craig: Yeah. Actually even before The Writer’s Store. I picked it up from this bungalow where I think his name is Marc Madnick, the initial author of the program, he and his buddies were in a bungalow in Santa Monica and I bought the two floppy disk set. I think it was Final Draft 2.
And the truth is that Final Draft has that problem that legacy software has. It’s just a city that’s been built over and on top of itself and it’s become really unwieldy like the tax code.
Movie Magic, when I went over to Movie Magic I thought, “Okay, well, this is a little bit less of that. It feels like it started a little bit more advanced.”
Now with this Fade In I’m looking at it thinking, “Well, this is how you should do it. Just start fresh and really write code for the way computers work and look now.”
So I’m going to talk to this guy and see about getting involved with his program because I also just love that he’s a guy and not a big, huge company.
John: I actually had lunch with Marc Madnick several weeks ago. As you know, my company makes FDX Reader, which is the Final Draft reader for the iPad, because we want to be able to read Final Draft files, and we can.
We have had conversations before this about the FDR format, which is the old Final Draft format. We would love to be able to support the old FDR format. The short, non-want-to-rip-your-brains-out, technologically advanced version explanation of why you can’t do that is that we just can’t. It’s not even that it’s a special, magic proprietary thing. It’s that it’s basically impossible to separate the old file format out from how Final Draft worked.
Really what it comes down to is that the programs were so old that they needed to fit files and make them really small on floppy disks. So they would do these crazy compression things to them. They were reading the file directly to the screen, and it was a very different way of working than how we think about files right now. So basically we will never be able to support FDR files. That was the upshot of that lunch.
Craig: Yeah, it’s interesting. When I was talking to the developer of Fade In, one of the first questions I asked was how easy is it to import. He said that, for FDX files, which are the Final Draft 8 file formats, just open it up and it works. And it did, beautifully. He said, “FDR files? Forget it. It’s a nightmare.”
John: Yeah. So we are working on some magic that we will be able to announce pretty soon that I think will be interesting to people who are dealing with legacy files. But I can’t quite announce that yet.
Craig: Alright. That’s exciting.
John: I’m actually trying out something new for this script. It is my 40th script and in celebration of the 40th script, 40th complete screenplay, I am trying Scrivener, which is a pretty elaborate program, which I have always been daunted by because it can do so much. It’s not just a screenwriting program; it would really be good for any long form fiction.
But it actually works in a way that is very nice for my workflow, in that when I went off to Boston and I barricaded myself in the room, I am writing individual scenes, and I am handwriting them. I’m taking pictures of them with my iPad and sending them to Stuart, who is typing them up. So they just sit in a file in Dropbox as individual scenes. The really nice thing about Scrivener is that with Scrivener you can drag those individual files into a folder in Scrivener and look at them individually or stream them together. So, scenes are both individual and all pasted together, depending on how you want to look at them.
Craig: That’s interesting.
John: So, it has been pretty good to work with. I found that the formatting on the page looks pretty good. It’s attractive. It does a very nice full-screen version. The moving from dialogue to character name to action to transitions is pretty natural and pretty logical. Rarely am I getting stuck in the wrong formatting template.
Craig: Does it use a standard sort of return-tab method?
John: Yes. So it’s nice to try something new and find that it is mostly working. The thing I have enjoyed most about Scrivener and the thing that got me most excited is that it is clearly being updated regularly. With some of these older programs you worry that they are not going to come out with the next version or you worry that it is a tiny company that might not exist three months from now.
John: This feels like it’s the right balance of young but growing.
Craig: Yeah, I tried Scrivener once. I fell into the initial trap that you were in, which is it seems like there is a lot going on here; my needs are actually fairly narrow. I don’t really use, for instance, Final Draft and Movie Magic have made big deals about their scene navigator and outlining. I don’t use any of that. I just get rid of that window. Not interested, don’t care. I just want a good writing experience.
The other thing that I think is of great value to me is software that can best handle production. Production has so many specific demands. If I can easily satisfy the requirements of the production, the 1st AD, the Script Supervisor, it just makes everything so much easier. They are always very appreciative of a screenwriter that just even knows how to do it.
John: Yeah. I fully anticipate that, at some point I will probably export this and bring it into Final Draft and do that last cleanup in Final Draft and make sure that everything is just the way I want it to be.
When I talked to Marc Madnick, I said, “Hey, why don’t you make a cheap version of Final Draft that is $99, that’s for everybody? Put all the pro features in the Final Draft Pro and make that the $299 version, because I would pay $299 for all the pro features of that.”
And his point, which I think is a very good point, is that then he has four products to support, rather than two. He would have the Mac and the PC versions of the low-end and the high-end. It becomes exponentially more work to make any sort of change across the programs.
Craig: Well, yeah. My whole issue with Final Draft and the reason that I left them publicly was that I did think that, when it came to support, they had just fallen apart.
And I understand why to some extent. They became the default screenwriting application. And while there are maybe 2000 or 3000 people in the world that write screenplays professionally, there are tens and maybe hundreds of thousands of people that are trying. And those people have lots of questions and get confused and also, frankly, Final Draft has a history of releasing buggy product. So suddenly they were charging for tech support and it was frustrating to me.
One thing I will say about Movie Magic is for an application that is just as feature rich as Final Draft their tech support has been outstanding and remains entirely free. So that’s a big deal for me.
And I don’t really need tech support, but tech support is one of those things that when you need it you really need it.
John: Yeah. Actually, a development just this week is Final Draft is now in the Mac App Store. So we’ll see how it does there. It’s there at its full price. As we’re recording this it’s $199, which is a lot for apps in the app store.
Craig: It’s so much. To me there’s a big opening, I think, for a new app that is reasonably priced, that has been built fresh from the ground up for this generation of operating systems.
John: What would you change about how you do your work? That was the last question in the blog post I did and I’m curious what you would do differently.
Craig: [laughs] I don’t know. I do a lot of stuff differently.
Look, I could tell you what I wish but that’s kind of a self-denial. I wish I were more regular in the hours I kept. I wish that I were more workman-like in the way I approach the writing. There are guys out there, some excellent writers, who clock in at 9:00 AM, they write until noon, they have their lunch, then they write until 4:30, and then they go home.
I would love to be that guy. I think it would make my life easier, my family’s life easier, but it’s not me. So there’s nothing I can do to change the way I do it other than to accept it, so I accept it.
John: Screenwriting is very much peaks and valleys. I wish they were all peaks and there were no valleys and I was always at an amazing flow, generating tons of pages, and loving everything I did. But I would recognize that that’s just not the way it really normally works in the real world.
I would try to use Freedom more. Freedom is the utility that turns off your Internet and it’s just a godsend.
Craig: Love that.
John: And I would just get away from my computer more. You were talking about sprinting and I do find that I tend to get a lot more done in short sprints rather than the slog sessions of staring at the computer.
Craig: Yeah. You just have to sort of be honest to your own self. Everybody’s got their own writing fingerprint. It’s a little difficult when you start out because you’re not quite sure what your fingerprint is and you, frankly, should make an effort to dispel the most odious habits because you might land in a better place and that becomes your method.
But you have to temper that with acknowledging who you are and how you work best. Try not to lend any great meaning to those moments where you are in despair. It’s inevitable and it doesn’t mean you’re bad, it means you’re in one of those valleys.
John: Yep. Good. Well that’s a nice conversation about some peaks and some valleys and some adult film stars who may have been writing in with questions and managers who have fallen off the grid.
Craig: You’ve got to find out where that guy went. Now I’m excited.
John: The reason I googled him is because someone asked, “Hey, whatever happened to insert-name-of-manager?” And I’m like, “Oh, that’s a really good question.” Google, google, google. He had a common enough name that I had to weed through some possibilities and do some minus in Google to take out certain categories of people, but strangely he disappeared.
Craig: Not even Facebook?
John: Not even Facebook. I’m always a little suspicious of people who are not on Facebook at all or you can’t find an image of them. I do find that generally if I’m stalking somebody Google image search ends up becoming the crucial thing because you can look for their face and that will lead you to some sort of clue of how to find them in other places.
Craig: For sure. It’s always frustrating when you’re looking for people in our business and maybe they’re not all that prominent and all Google will do is spit out posters of their one movie or something. It’s useless. There is an art to Google stalking.
John: And to finishing up the podcast. Thank you, Craig.
Craig: Thank you, John.
John: We’ll talk again soon.
Craig: You’ve got it.