Spanish or Mandarin
At the gym yesterday, we were discussing which language would be the best foreign language for a native English speaker to learn first. Specifically, can you make a compelling case for any language other than Spanish or Mandarin?
I couldn’t.
I asked again today on Twitter, and those two were by far the most common answers.
Sure, some qualifiers are in order. By “foreign language,” I’m using shorthand for “language not spoken natively in the home.” If you’re born in Rhode Island, but your parents are Italian, I would hope they’re speaking Italian in the home; the best way to learn a language is from your family. So “foreign language” in this case would mean the third language after English and Italian.
And there are other special circumstances. For example, if you move to Sweden, you should really learn Swedish. If you or a family member are deaf, ASL would be the choice. If you’re from a country with two official languages (e.g. Canada), that second language may be the default.
But beyond what you pick up from your family or neighbors, your first non-English language should be Spanish or Mandarin.
My logic and biases
I was born in the U.S. I’m fluent in English. I’m competent in Spanish, less so in French. I can ask directions in German, Portuguese, Japanese and Mandarin, with declining likelihood of being able to understand the answer given. I live at the edge of Koreatown, and while I can read Hangul well enough to decipher transliterated signs, I don’t speak the language at all.
I learned Spanish starting in second grade, part of a bilingual project in my elementary school in Colorado. Obviously, part of the reason I admire the language is that it’s the first one I learned.
There is a misperception that one “needs” to speak Spanish in Southern California. In 17 years here, I can count on one hand the number of times in which my Spanish was actually necessary. But it’s certainly useful.
I think people should speak several languages, not only for the opportunities it presents for international business and travel, but the broader global and literary perspective it provides. You’re going to learn one language first. Pick wisely.
My criteria were, roughly:
- Number of people who speak it worldwide
- Usefulness in daily life
- Usefulness in international business or travel
- Availability of media in that language
- Applicability to future language learning
- Economic power of native speakers
The contenders
In the list of top languages spoken worldwide, there are several worth serious consideration.
Hindi (#3) and Arabic (#5) both have vast numbers on their side. With satellite, access to media in both languages has increased worldwide. They are clearly useful languages for business and travel. But I can’t make a compelling case for learning either of these before Spanish or Mandarin. I’m happy to be convinced otherwise; my American bias may be coming through.
Portuguese (#6), Russian (#8), Japanese (#9) are each spoken mostly in their respective economically-powerful countries, and not many other places. They’re great languages to know if you intend to do business in those countries, but it’s hard to argue that they should be general-case choices.
German (#10) shares roots with English, though that doesn’t necessarily make it easy to learn. English is widely taught in Germany, which makes learning German less essential for native English speakers than it might be otherwise.
French (#12) has a tremendous amount of literature and Western Civilization in its favor. While the total number of French speakers isn’t that high, there is fairly wide distribution given the language’s role in international diplomacy. As a romance language, it shares a lot of structure with Spanish. I found it quick to learn given what I already knew.
I’m omitting Cantonese just based on numbers. More people speak all of the languages listed above. Learning Mandarin would put an English speaker on a path towards learning Cantonese later. I’m guessing familiarity with a tonal language like Mandarin could be a help for other Asian languages in general.
I’m also omitting Esperanto and Klingon, even though each has a special place in my heart.
The case for Mandarin or Spanish
Mandarin is the most commonly spoken language in the world,1 and China’s influence will only grow in the years ahead. China is an active investor worldwide, including Africa and South America, yet distribution of Mandarin speakers is relatively sparse outside of Asia. Fluency in English and Mandarin could be a tremendous asset.
Cons for Mandarin: It’s a more challenging language for native English speakers. Learning its rhythms, tones and phonemes — and writing system — would take a lot of work. But getting that practice early in life would be a boon. Currently, there are limited outlets for Mandarin media in the U.S. One’s ability to actively use the language may be limited based on location.
Spanish is the fourth most common language after English and Hindi. It’s tremendously useful in the Western hemisphere — spoken in almost all of Central and South America with the notable exception of Brazil. 2 In the U.S., one finds an abundance of both native speakers and Spanish-language media outlets. You can use Spanish on a daily basis without ever leaving the country.
While it has a daunting number of conjugations, Spanish is grammatically straightforward and remarkably consistent with pronunciation and sound rules, which makes it well-suited for school-based study. With its Latin roots, it has tremendous vocabulary overlap with English and most European languages. Learning Spanish early may increase overall English vocabulary as well.3
Cons for Spanish: While the number of Spanish speakers will probably continue to grow, there is no reason to anticipate its reach expanding beyond its current borders. It’s certainly more useful in the U.S. than in the U.K. or Australia. Fluency in Spanish is so common in the U.S. that it’s not a particularly unique or marketable asset.
Should we bother teaching other languages?
In high school, yes. In college, absolutely. You need to reward motivated students who want to learn languages. But I’d argue that in grade school and junior high, we would serve students better by offering them either Spanish or Mandarin. That’s it.
We clearly have the raw capital (i.e. native speakers) to teach Spanish. I’m not sure we have the capacity for Mandarin.
So have at it. Can you make a compelling case for something other than Spanish or Mandarin as a first foreign language for a native English speaker?
- The exact numbers vary based on what degree you differentiate native languages from secondary languages, and how much you assume dialects are mutually intelligible. Regardless, the big four stay on top. ↩
- A competent Spanish speaker will find Portuguese easy to navigate, however. ↩
- Like French, Spanish has many recognizable cognates with English. Dormir :: dormitory, blanco :: blanch. This doesn’t mean the words came from Spanish, but rather than the words reveal common roots, which is so very helpful come SAT time. ↩
Articles
April 21st, 2009 at 2:54 pm
My parents are from India and I plan to go back to India for charity work, maybe move to Mumbai for film work. Yes, I am teaching myself to read and write Hindi for that. I’m also trying to improve my Urdu. But also so I can feel “nourished” and read famous old Urdu ghazals. Basically, I want to know foreign languages because I think it’s rewarding and I just love linguistics in general.
I agree, Spanish is a good language to learn, especially for Americans. Over in Europe, it’s a good idea if you can speak at least 3 different languages.
April 21st, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Interesting post. The only thing I would add is that speaking and understanding Spanish often helps me quickly decipher the meaning of words from a bunch of other languages. Words in languages originating in Europe are often similar to the word in either Spanish or English, so understanding both is a pretty great tool.
I once read a newspaper article that I thought was written in Valenciano (the variation of Spanish/Castellano spoken in the Valencia region of Spain) and pretty much understood everything. Then I discovered that I was reading a French newspaper!
April 21st, 2009 at 3:01 pm
The thing about Cantonese that would make it almost impossible for non-Cantonese speakers is that the language consists of 7 tones, more if you focus on specific dialects, which are many. Mandarin only has 4, which makes it a bit easier to learn.
April 21st, 2009 at 3:03 pm
I have friends that need to master English before they move onto a 2nd language…
April 21st, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Disclaimer: I am American, a native English speaker, and was at one time fluent in French, although ten years of not practicing it make my current ability rather doubtful. I can communicate badly but often functionally in Spanish when I have the opportunity to do so.
I do think there is a case to be made for Arabic. Your criteria don’t seem to make the case for it, but I think there are other issues.
On the level of intercultural understanding, I think there’s some urgency. There seems to be a tendency in the past two decades (longer if one counts Reagan bombing Lybia) for the US armed forces to end up in conflicts in places where the Arabic language has some influence in one way or another. In the hope of peace and understanding, I think it would be a good thing if more Westerners could read and listen and speak and write in Arabic.
April 21st, 2009 at 3:13 pm
I always considered Spanish to be a gateway language for learning other languages, so I always lean towards it. I understand more than I can speak (living in the Bronx makes it easy to pick up), but a friend of mine said that mandarin is the same way for other Asian languages, so I can see your point… If I can learn Cambodian, I can learn mandarin.
April 21st, 2009 at 3:21 pm
A native speaker from where? In the USA, both look like an excellent choice, but in europe I’d put french before spanish (although in my case, as a german, I’d say as the second foreign language after english). France and the french-speaking parts of Belgium and Switzerland are just more important politically and economically than Spain and Portugal.
April 21st, 2009 at 3:46 pm
French and German are the two languages usually taught in British high schools. You choose one.
Spanish is taught later on but very few take the class.
April 21st, 2009 at 3:56 pm
In portugal after portuguese and english, we learn french at school, which i think it makes sense here in europe (and being spanish, for us, so easy to understand anyway…)
April 21st, 2009 at 3:58 pm
I think your case is airtight on the basis of usefulness, with strong arguments from Arabic in #5 above. But you should include “usefulness” in your disclosure of biases. I enjoy being able to communicate with my SoCal cohabitants in their native tongue, but I like the idea that there may be deeper pleasures in reading Goethe in the original.
April 21st, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Really, the “best” language to learn is the one you most enjoy learning.
My first foreign language was French, and it was by dint of years spent toiling in it that I’ve retained any of it.
I’ve also studied Russian, which at the time, suited my ambitions and career goals. No longer.
The one language I studied for career and actually enjoyed was Croatian.
But if I had to choose one, it would be Italian, simply for the joy it gives me hearing it, saying the words. My Italian teacher (alas only a semester’s worth of instruction) would say Italian “is like a party.” Who cares if it isn’t the “best” based on the above criteria? I’ll take Italy (or fmr Yugoslavia) over China anyday.
April 21st, 2009 at 4:06 pm
I picked Spanish over French in school, because I thought it would be more useful. It has been useful four times, that I can remember. I frequently wish that I had chosen French, because I would really love to be able to read French surrealist poetry that doesn’t translate into English.
My dad recently taught himself some Mandarin with Rosetta Stone, because he was doing some work in Beijing. Now he that he speaks it surprisingly well, he feels like he should take advantage of his new skill by doing more jobs in China. But it turns out that he hates working and spending time there.
April 21st, 2009 at 5:01 pm
Check this article: http://www.convergemag.com/artsandhumanities/Languages-in-2020.html
April 21st, 2009 at 5:35 pm
I speak Spanish relatively well/fluently for a non-native speaker, but being half-Taiwanese, I really wish I knew Mandarin. Actually Catilin’s comment further compels me to investigate Rosetta Stone…
And I’ve had Spanish come in handy a number of times, in my native Texas, in my journeys abroad, and even randomly at the airport helping a little boy who had lost his father.
Mandarin would just be nice so I could talk to my mother’s half of the family…
April 21st, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Arabic’s spoken in 30 countries. Mandarin’s spoken by a quarter of the world.
I would go with Arabic just because, though it’s a hard language, it’s easier to learn than Mandarin.
You’ll run into people who speak those languages everywhere, and it’ll be the most charming thing in the world if you speak to them in their native language.
April 21st, 2009 at 6:37 pm
As a native spanish speaker, of course I would advise english speakers to learn the language. I also speak french, and being able to read literature in all three languages is a great experience for a writer…
I’m also a screenwriter (that’s why I love this site, btw) and I can assure you that being able to write scripts in english, spanish and french actually makes it very handy when you think about going to film festivals or think about co-production.
I went to Cannes in 2006 and my french was not very good at the timne. Seeing that it would have massively improve my contact opportunities, I decided to give it a secong chance after I returned to my country (Venezuela). Also, I’m planning on moving to Montreal, so… Is kind of necessaty to speak french…
Finally, John says that spanish language is not most likely to expand beyond its borders, but considering the huge number of latin immigrants virtually everywhere, I do think that spanish will keep groing in other countries.
Also, latinas are hot =P
April 21st, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Earlier this week I read that China will soon be the largest English-speaking language on Earth. If that’s true, it suggests that learning Mandarin could be a big advantage, but that not speaking Mandarin may not be such a major shortcoming.
In comparison, knowing Spanish is a useful gateway to learning (or just grokking) still other languages. Plus, to the extent that I can suggest this without generalizing terribly or projecting too much about the future, in the Americas, there are more emergency situations in which understanding Spanish is likely to be a fortunate break than knowing Mandarin. I’m thinking, here, just of the number of times I’ve seen situations in which one person needs help — medical attention, directions, police assistance — and can’t get it because both parties didn’t understand enough Spanish to get by.
Not to defy the spirit of the question, but to me it’s an issue of which one to learn first. Do you go for Spanish, with the understanding that it’s easier to learn when exposed to a language that’s in actual, active use and that here in the States we often have easy access to Spanish-language television stations and signage? Or do you start with Mandarin, with the expectation that it’s a bigger challenge for English speakers to scale and, so, learning it first may make learning other languages seem easier?
I say start with Spanish, if only because it can be exercised and field-tested more frequently and more gradually on this continent, and so demonstrates that learning a language isn’t a textbook affair.
I wish I spoke a bunch of languages. But I very way much do not. My public-school education pretty well failed me on the language front.
April 21st, 2009 at 6:39 pm
There’s a funny scene in Vicky Christina Barcelona where the topic of Mandarin vs Spanish as a more beautiful language comes up. Spanish wins.
April 21st, 2009 at 6:48 pm
I think the issue is the first assessment of ‘why people learn a language’
Seems to me you’ve decided that the only reason to make it required learning is one of cultural and business usefulness. And well, that’s just silly. There are many reasons to learn a language, one of which is simply that the speaker wants to learn said language, whether it’s Portugese, Russian, or Pirahã. Languages are meant to be understood, so anyone should be allowed and encouraged to learn any language they want.
As for what one learns in high school, I can see those being limited by budget. But only to Spanish or Mandarin just seems silly.
April 21st, 2009 at 7:16 pm
If more native English speakers spoke Spanish in southern California, they would have a greater respect for many of the immigrants that make their lifestyle possible.
April 21st, 2009 at 7:55 pm
This is an interesting article. I’m a white guy who speaks Mandarin about as fluently as I speak English. Outside of mainland China I haven’t found it very useful. Unless you plan on spending years in China it just isn’t necessary.
Only about half the people in China can communicate in Mandarin; it’s really a second language or dialect for most people. Once you’re off the beaten path just about every village has its own dialect.
I did find learning Vietnamese a snap after knowing Mandarin. But Mandarin isn’t much of a stepping stone to Cantonese. Outside living in an all Cantonese environment this is a tough language to grasp, equally so for native Mandarin speakers. It’s also a very big step to go from reading and writing simplified Chinese to traditional characters like those used in Hong Kong, Taiwan and overseas Chinese communities.
Spanish is good to know because it’s spoken all over the world. I’ve found French also very international. It’s spoken all over the world and is usually free of local dialects. Speak good French in Quebec and you’ll get by just as well in Paris or Gabon. Speaking Mandarin is great if you’re in Beijing, but head to southern parts of China and you might have to write things down to communicate – assuming the person isn’t also illiterate. It takes a lot of years of schooling to learn all those characters.
Learning foreign languages helps your understanding of English too. This can make you a better writer.
April 21st, 2009 at 10:06 pm
I’d first go for an easy language, because later it might wake your kid’s interest for more foreign languages. Spanish had been the third language (beside my mother tongue and English) and I always found it was pretty easy to understand, because you were able to deduce words from the English language and once you know how to speak Spanish, you have no problems in at least understanding Italian and reading French and Portuguese.
April 21st, 2009 at 10:29 pm
Another “honorable mention” (certainly above klingon, haha) would be Farsi (especially if you hope to do business in the Middle East in the future…)
Also, for those thinking of taking the time to learn Spanish or Mandarin, Rosetta Stone is actually pretty awesome…especially if you want to learn Mandarin without living in China.
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:53 am
I hated learning Spanish in elementary school, so as a result I still have a dislike for it and would never try learning it again.
I took a semester of French in Junior High, and did quite well in that. I then move on to take 4 years of Latin. I started out with an A in 8th grade. But the time 11th ended, I’d had the same teacher for three years and absolutely hated the language with every fiber of my being. I nearly failed that last semester.
My first semester of college, I tried to take German. I dropped out of the class a little under a month in. I just couldn’t do it. Four years of Latin, several of those having been spent being miserable as a learned it, had killed an ability to learn another language.
Right now, the only one I am even remotely interested in learning is Icelandic, as my favorite band is Sigur Ros. By reading their lyrics translated into English I have actually learn quite a few words in Icelandic, without any sort of difficulty. Also, those it is supposed to be difficult, I find it shockingly easy to pronounce. Unfortunately I haven’t found a single school in the United States that teaches it, and even more depressing is a statistic I found that there only 2,000 worldwide attempting to learn it.
April 22nd, 2009 at 2:50 am
I love Italian. I’m finding it easier to learn than French. I don’t care if it’s not the most “useful” language in the world. For a music, art and food lover it works for me.
Most of my friend in continental Europe speak at least three languages. Their native tongue, English and either French or German.
I think it’s important for Americans to learn/study another language even if they don’t need to speak it in America. It really does open your mind to other cultures and helps when traveling.
April 22nd, 2009 at 6:54 am
Opening your mind to other cultures is a powerful reason to learn languages, though this usually takes more than fluency in a language: One should read literature native to it.
Just another reason why these things need to be taught in school. When you reach a word or phrase that you realize you can’t neatly turn back into English – but you understand it perfectly well – then you start to feel it.
On the personal side, I also think it’s handy to be able to bypass subtitles, since they so frequently fall short – or sometimes change things entirely from their original context and meaning. (There’s a Spanish short film I saw whose English/”International” title is “Doors Cut Down,” and whose Spanish/actual title translates to “In Bad Company” – two entirely different titles that prime you for two entirely different takes on the film.)
And Italian will always be the most beautiful language for me, so I’d always recommend people learn it, but I can’t make a utilitarian case for it. A language whose grammar is dedicated to euphony almost entirely is a song when you learn to speak it.
You’re right, by the way, about Spanish and Portuguese: I once had a conversation with a Brazilian man, and we each understood each other nearly perfectly.
April 22nd, 2009 at 7:04 am
To Andreas Climent (and in general anyone interested in languages):
You say “Valenciano (the variation of Spanish/Castellano spoken in the Valencia region of Spain)”. Nooooo!!!! Please, don’t confuse people. Valencian is a dialect of Catalan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language). It’s maybe, like saying English or American. It’s spoken in Catalonia, Valencia, the Balearic Islands, Andorra and Southeast of France, mainly. Likewise, Spanish (it should be called Castillian, because it comes from Castille and there are other languages in Spain) is spoken in most Central and South America, although Castillian Spanish is quite diferent from the one they speak in Cuba or the one spoken in Argentina, for instance. So I guess Spanish should be your first foreign language to learn. Thanks!
April 22nd, 2009 at 7:06 am
To Andreas Climent (and in general anyone interested in languages):
You say “Valenciano (the variation of Spanish/Castellano spoken in the Valencia region of Spain)”. Nooooo!!!! Please, don’t confuse people. Valencian is a dialect of Catalan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language). It’s maybe, like saying English or American. It’s spoken in Catalonia, Valencia, the Balearic Islands, Andorra and Southeast of France, mainly. Likewise, Spanish (it should be called Castillian, because it comes from Castille and there are other languages in Spain) is spoken in most Central and South America, although Castillian Spanish is quite diferent from the one they speak in Cuba or the one spoken in Argentina, for instance. So I guess Spanish should be your first foreign language to learn. Thanks!
April 22nd, 2009 at 7:33 am
I minored in French and I do love French, but I really wish I’d also taken some Spanish. I work all day with high school kids who travel back and forth between English and Spanish and their parents usually speak no English. At parent conferences all I know how to say is whether or not the kid behaves. I never call home because I won’t be able to talk to the parent anyway. I’ve been trying to learn, but it’s never as easy as it was when we were kids.
April 22nd, 2009 at 8:14 am
Mandarin is my mother tongue, but I’m actually more fluent in English. Nevertheless, I can read, write and converse in Mandarin, as well as in French (though at a lower level).
In my experience, most westerners (that is, people who haven’t learnt a tonal language like Mandarin) have great difficulty in learning the pronunciation and then actually being understood. However, Kevin Rudd, the current Australian PM, speaks remarkably good mandarin that is very accurate tonally. However, most of my Chinese friends in Australia refuse to acknowledge it because, as it turns out, he speaks better Mandarin than they do. (If they do know a Chinese dialect, it’s more likely to be Cantonese or Mandarin, as opposed to Mandarin as the national language of China.)
So, the learning curve is greater for Mandarin as opposed to Spanish. I think it’s not just a matter of putting the effort to learn, but also being in the environment to pick up the natural sounds of the language. Spanish is much more accessible in USA. While there are many Chinese in Australia, particularly foreign overseas Chinese students (as opposed to local Chinese students who are children of immigrants and therefore less likely to speak Mandarin), these groups may be difficult to penetrate. In fact, the most common experience I have of a non-Mandarin speaking person attempting to “practise” his/her Mandarin often seems like a thinly veiled attempt of mokery.
April 22nd, 2009 at 8:41 am
While I agree with your logic on both Mandarin and Spanish, I think in New England it is also very important to learn French. There are places in many New England state, Maine in particular, where street signs are in both French and English, and as many people are French speakers as English speakers. Quebecois influence, I’m sure.
April 22nd, 2009 at 9:02 am
To those above who say you can never learn a language as well as when you are a kid, and who therefore gave up: change the way you’re trying and don’t despair! In a sense it’s difficult to learn a language like a child does, but only in that a child is completely immersed in a language, yet isn’t put under any internal or external demands to produce words for years, simple but grammatically correct sentences for years after that, and perfect, complex sentences for a decade or more. As adults we can learn vocabulary and grammar far BETTER than children of almost any age (leaving aside the “critical period” of about 2-ish, where children are learning tens of words a day, though even then grammar is fairly nonexistant above correct word order.)
I did undergrad research with a cognitive linguistics group who studied L2 acquisition, and we found that you can gain an intuitive grasp of grammar more quickly as an adult than you could as a 7- or 8-year-old. The same is true for vocabulary. The only area where adults underperform children is in pronunciation, which we found to be much more idiosyncratic (some people are really good at getting it quickly, others struggle).
Additionally, for those of you who spoke a language quite well but have since “lost” it, earlier research the group did (before I started there) showed that you learn three to four times more quickly than you did the first time you learned the language until you “catch up” to where you were before.
So pick a language and get going, whatever your age! Just try to get as much exposure to the language as you can in ways that are fun for you (watch movies, read screenplays, etc.) and don’t set unrealistic expectations on yourself with the idea that you’ll give up if you aren’t able to speak the language well in six months or whatever. Concentrate on good comprehension, and let production come naturally in a low-stress way.
As an actual answer to the question asked, I would argue that learning a language that not a lot of people in your country speak is more valuable if you’re trying for a business angle (the ability to translate Spanish is fairly valueless in the US for example) and choosing a language where a lot of the culture and media in it are interesting to you, since then you’ll have many fun ways to practice. Also, anything with Chinese characters, especially unsimplified ones, is good since it lets you read a lot of languages you can’t speak, and simplified Mandarin characters are pretty easy to guess, whereas going the other way is much more dificult.
April 22nd, 2009 at 9:18 am
A me mi piace parlare solamente Italiano.
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:33 pm
When I was 8 we had an American exchange student living with us for a whole year (from Hawaii but of German descent). He learned something like 2 or 3 phrases in Icelandic (like “How do you do!”) but that was it. He was loads of fun — he played the piano and was really good at drawing zany MAD-like figures which amused me no end — and funnily enough I can’t recall having any problems communicating with him.
Nowadays foreign exchange students rarely spend more than 4-6 months in the country. And no matter where they come from — the Americas, Europe, Africa, Asia — they all seem to be able to pick up the rudiments of the language in about 3 or 4 months and get by just fine. Which leads me to believe that one of the following must be true:
a) Kids today are smarter than kids have ever been in history.
b) Nowadays foreign exchange programs really push kids to learn the language — by making them take courses in ‘Icelandic for Foreigners’ and suchlike (our Nick never got any assistance really, everyone was hell bent on using him to practice their English).
c) Only dead-serious language buffs apply to become exchange students in Iceland.
d) Kids nowadays think nothing of spending a couple of months learning a totally obscure and useless language.
e) People in various pockets of the world are picking up the rudiments of Icelandic in the privacy of their own homes by listening to Sigur rós.
Nick — our exchange student — became a professional actor. His Icelandic hasn’t been much use to him in his career, truth be told.
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:58 pm
I speak fluent English, Mandarin and French.
I have to say that the economic advantage of this is enormous, particularly in Asia. I currently go to school in Canada but have previously worked in China in exports and translating. There is a ridiculous amount of business conducted between English and Mandarin speakers there and frankly, fluent speakers in both languages (and cultures) are vitually non-existent, as the school doesn’t teach English very well there and the 3 or 4 Caucasian Madarin speakers I’ve met are all missionaries (i.e. do not work in the business world).
Every time I run out of money, I kick myself for having not taken the various juniors executive offers I had while working in China. I felt a moral and psychological obligation to not work in the corporate world and I have to say that it’s most costly habit I have- way ahead of smoking or drinking.
But yeah, if you’ve a penchant for it, and the skills to do it, learning Mandarin is priceless for business opportunities. As a so-called “artist” I was always more interested in the perspective you gain into world culture. As a result I’ve also dabbled in German, Russian (horrible language!), Japanese and Spanish.
And to Paul H: native Chinese speakers have little problem learning various village dialects (kind of like an actor learning different accents) and recognizing traditional characters (like doing math in Roman numerals, bit clumsy, but certainly doable without schooling). Learning English, however…
April 22nd, 2009 at 3:43 pm
Of course it all depends on many factors but I would say learning Mandarin is less useful for several reasons.
First, Mandarin relies very much on the tone and inflection of the spoken word. Whereas if I say stop or STOP in english it always means stop (w/ varying levels of force); if I say stop in Mandarin it may mean ‘cease’ whereas STOP may mean garden hose. So in this respect knowing a little Mandarin is very dangerous.
Secondly, Spanish is closely related to other european languages. By having a foundation is Spanish you are able to more quickly become conversational in Portoguese or Italian. Mandarin is also similar to other languages like Cantonese but for most people learning 1 asian language is challange enough. Clearly that is a biased opinion on my part but applies to me personally.
Finally, spanish oranges are superior to mandarin oranges in every way (save portability).
April 22nd, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Huh? But china is Spanish for orange (also a Chinese female).
April 22nd, 2009 at 6:39 pm
@Mike- That’s because Spanish IS more beautiful! As a Mandarin-speaker, I feel comfortable saying it’s mostly an angry-sounding language of strange sounds and difficult tones. Spanish is fluid.
But I do think French sounds like art no matter what you’re saying, and Italian is pretty nice too.
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:29 am
Kristan, I feel the exact opposite about Mandarin. When I was learning it when I grew up, I hated it because it was just too difficult compared to English (which I spoke with my parents, even though we’re Chinese). But when I outgrew my dislike, I really fell in love with it. Think of watching Ying Xiong (Hero). SIGH. Beautiful.
What I do find strident though is probably Cantonese and Hokkien, which incidentally are my parent’s dialects.
As for French, I do think it’s rather overrated. After years of learning French and knowing the insides of the language, it has lost its charm for me. It was only beautiful sounding when it was foreign.
April 23rd, 2009 at 9:04 am
I find it hard to believe anyone who speaks Mandarin can say it is an “angry-sounding” language. Maybe the people you’re speaking it with are just angry.
April 23rd, 2009 at 9:30 am
I’ll go with Spanish, mostly because of the 5th point, after that, You could learn italian or portugese much more easily
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:18 pm
In high school (in the U.S.) a very smart and very cocky boy I knew said he was learning Russian because, in his words “one of us is going to take the other over someday.” (this was before the fall of the USSR) He was so sure of his prediction. I still half-expect it to happen.
I took French in high school and college. After law school, I lived in Japan for five years and then worked for five years for a German company (in the U.S.). So, what language would have been the best for me? Who knows?
The plain fact is that English is still the most-spoken foreign language in the world. When it isn’t any longer I hope we take it better than the French took their “lingua franca” demotion. But there is no clear front-runner for a native English speaker looking for their second language. If you lived in Detroit instead of L.A., you would consider French the front runner because of the proximity to Canada. For native English speakers, trying to handicap the value of one “second” language over another is folly.
If you are selecting a language for your daughter to study (and I suspect this is what prompted the question), find a language that is immediately useful and for which you have no lack of teachers. When she is 25 and can speak Tagalog she will entertain her co-workers at her job in Katmandu by telling jokes in a language they can’t understand. None of it is going to be useful anyhow because in 20 years there will be some other “hot” language everyone will be learning.
April 24th, 2009 at 2:53 am
I speed read your post Mr August, so forgive me if I miss some of your points. Actually, Cantonese can be the tougher of the Chinese dialects. Mandarin can be easier for some. Cantonese has 8 tones and has lots of “ng” sounds.
Mandarin only has 4 tones and has lots of “shh” sounds. Hong Kong has lots of Cantonese speakers, so if you plan on going there, you’ll really impress the locals if you can speak Cantonese there.
One time, I saw a Black woman on a Chinese TV variety show speaking perfect Cantonese to the hosts. I was in awe of her, the hosts were in awe with her. She even enunciated her words better than me. It was like…seeing a hole in one in golf — a rarity.
There’s a whole quiet debate on which is the more dominant dialect: Cantonese or Mandarin. I’d rather not say which one is “better” than the other. I’ve been raised to believe that no one culture or language, even one’s own is better than the other.
But you can’t really go wrong with learning either one. Most choose Mandarin because the media, the Internet, etc say it is the most spoken of the Chinese languages.
I would go by, what do you hear more often in your daily life: Cantonese or Mandarin? Especially in restaurants.
If you plan on doing lots of international traveling, then Mandarin.
But if you plan on being more local, Cantonese might better serve you in your daily life, especially in CA or NY.
Experiences vary. Some of my non-Asian friends have said Cantonese was easier for them to learn than Mandarin.
And if a white dude can [or any non-Asian for that matter] speak Cantonese, [which most Chinese people know is the toughest of the dialects] you not only get props, you get a bigger helping on your Sweet and Sour pork entree. ;-)
April 24th, 2009 at 3:02 am
Oops, I just read your comment about Cantonese. I’m glad you recognize that yes, the tonal differences can lead to you learning the other dialects. I wanted to comment about that, but got lazy. Oh well. Looks like Mandarin is for you.
April 24th, 2009 at 4:56 am
I completely agree with Fred. If you live in the U.S., have no need to speak Mandarin, have no Chinese speakers in your proximity and no interest in Mandarin-speaking culture, why the hell would you learn Mandarin? Because the economy is growing? So is Vietnam’s, and there are far fewer people learning Vietnamese; you could corner the market.
Honestly, making a “list” like this is silly. It’s like telling a kid to practice his guitar playing when he has shown no interest in guitars or the relevant types of music.
And guess what, not everybody needs to learn a foreign language. For the majority of people, particularly native English speakers, it is completely optional. The benefits are great, but it is not a necessity. You learn a second language for very personal reasons; the language you learn cannot be separated from this context. To make a list suggesting otherwise is silly.
In my opinion, however, everyone should learn Korean. Koreans make great movies, great food, and have the world’s 13th largest economy. And they don’t censor the internet.
April 24th, 2009 at 5:10 am
@George – That’s partly true. A lot of the time Chinese people can understand what is being said in a regional dialect but not be able to speak it. They’ve had a lot of practice considering the current president is the first leader since 1949 to speak Mandarin without a very strong regional accent.
April 24th, 2009 at 11:17 am
John,
I was just discussing this with my roommate last night. If you live in Los Angeles, both of these are great. There’s a lot of really good Mexican food in the city and Chinese food in the Pasadena area and it certainly helps to know the languages.
I think Spanish is more useful overall here because, unless you live in San Gabriel Valley, you’re just going to come across more people who prefer speaking in Spanish. Everyone from wait staff to G&E crew to your doctor is going to more quickly converse in Spanish than in English.
I also think the Spanish-language media is important too, as it gives you extra motivation to learn. Who doesn’t want to match Hispanic-America game shows?
As I’ve learned from one of my friends, Arabic fluency is very sought after in government work.
April 26th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
For the sake of not self-destructing in a global religious war, I think Arabic would be a good way to go. It’s the most different-from-English language I’ve ever tried to learn–not just in its grammar, alphabet, etc., but in the thought patterns, sociology, history, religion, and just plain manners that go with it. There just can’t be any real understanding when you literally don’t have the words. We just end up falling back on the shorthand of stereotypes and fear. Any new language also enables us to get some much-needed perspective on ourselves. They should be taught liberally and starting as early as possibly in school, cuz by the time we’re 10 our brains just don’t soak it up anymore.
April 28th, 2009 at 7:24 am
I would give French the edge over Spanish, although that depends on the region. In California or Texas, sure Spanish is the way to go. If you’re in Detroit, you’re within driving distance of Montreal, so that changes things.
French doesn’t have as many native speakers, but there’s a lot more total speakers, which means it’ll be just as useful for traveling– with French and English you’re unlikely to go anywhere you can’t find someone to talk to. If you want to travel in Europe, especially. As romance languages, they’re both useful jumping of points for learning others.
I would say French, and French-Canadian, film and literature is influential enough to give French the edge– but I’m a Canadian, so it’s not even a contest for me.
April 29th, 2009 at 3:04 am
I got stuck on a mountain in Spain, and had to knock on people’s doors to get directions to a petrol pump. I spoke in Italian, they blinked, understood and replied in Spanish. Hey presto – the joy of romance languages.
I’m in a multilingual environment here. The language I want the kids to try after the ones they learn in school will be Russian, which is very much the language of the future with Chinese (but a lot closer to us in Europe).
May 1st, 2009 at 8:34 am
I find it interesting you don’t have Russian mentioned anywhere that I saw, considering your husband majored in it at Notre Dame (we went to high school together).
May 2nd, 2009 at 6:18 am
While I think it can be very useful to learn Spanish (I grew up in a Spanish-speaking household), I think that it would be very useful for anyone in the arts/culture business to learn French–and not just for the European angle, but for all oft hose interactions with former French colonies. From the Caribbean to Africa to South East Asia, there are wonderful film projects being produced in French. While the relationship of the formerly colonized to the language of their colonizers is complex and complicated, it’s also true that there is work being done that is only accessible in French.
That said, learning a language, especially for US English speakers seems to work best for those who really like a language/culture/have a reason to pursue it. While I can see the point of learning a language for the value it has in the workforce, I’m still frustrated that kids who have the opportunity to be raised with bilingual literacy–Spanish speakers, both Cantonese and Mandarin speakers, the French-speaking Caribeños such as the Haitian Creole speakers, etc., are penalized in elementary school for having a non-English first language and emerging literacy in a first language which in turn often destroys access to literacy in a second language. All the while folks in the more elite high schools are doing semester-long exchanges to Spain.
I saw this happen again and again in the Boston Public Schools;nothing sadder than watching there’s nothing sadder than watching immigrant kids from Hong Kong and China being banned for speaking their home language and their parents demonized while “white” kids are being funneled into Mandarin classes to take advantage of future business opportunities.
It would be great to institutionalize second languages for native English speakers in the US—with the caveat that there are variants of native English that should be honored as well, perhaps—and in addition, allow those who have a first language other than English to achieve literacy in that language. It’s near impossible to gain true literacy with only social interactions. Being able to have bilingual education opportunities works for us all (and I supported two-way bilingual immersion programs once upon a time when I worked in Boston area public schools–several were very successful in developing language competency in the elementary curriculum in two languages, whether the native language was Spanish/English, Cantonese/English, Vietnamese/English, etc.
May 5th, 2009 at 9:53 am
I took spanish in high school and I really regret it. I really wish I had taken french or german instead (or most of all, italian but it wasn’t offered).
I have never used it, and the places that speak spanish are all pretty low on the list of where I’d like to visit. I’m just not a fan of the language.
Personally, I favor french/italian/german just because those are the languages most operas are in.
May 6th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
I think we should all learn more than one foreign language. I think the hardest thing is discipline, though.
Learning a language takes discipline. I found it easy to learn French because I was studying it at school and at college. I have a lot of books and materials for teaching myself other languages, but I find it hard to discipline myself to learn regularly.
My screenwriting is different, perhaps because I am expending creative energy rather than trying to process and remember information.
I still really want to learn them all though, so I think I should be tougher on myself, or try different methods of learning.
I really enjoy your blog, John :) This was the first post I read when I found your blog and I was really excited to be reading a blog by someone who is passionate about both screenwriting and languages :)
Nice to meet you, John!
May 29th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
I studied 8 languages and truly regret that one of them was not Mandarin or Japanese. Spanish was certainly the easiet to learn, and Arabic was the hardest one I studied due to things like its uber-confusing plurals forms. But, being exposed to Hebrew at early age made getting into Arabic less difficult, merely because their alphabet are similiar and they share other similarities as Semetic languages.
If you know how to read Russian, then you likely can read certain Greek words and know what they mean due to the Russian alphabet borrowing heavily from Greek.
Another funny thing, knowing German helped reading & pronouncing Old English stuff like Canterbury Tales less daunting task.