Outta here
I’m off to Paris with nine other screenwriters. I’ll be checking in occasionally, but the schedule they have us on is packed, so there may be some lost days.
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November 5th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Sorry, man. Your family and others deserve better.
Try to enjoy Europe….
November 5th, 2008 at 9:27 am
I think in the long run the ‘yes’ vote could be good. This has to go through the courts, where I think it has a strong chance of being struck down as unconstitutional. Also, other lawsuits from married couples could set a precedent that may cement the illegality of a ban. So file a lawsuit and keep fighting for your rights…But in the short term, it sucks. Unfortunately, this is how progress is too often made, two steps forward, one step back. The nation took two steps forward. California took one step back.
November 5th, 2008 at 9:38 am
Really sorry man, hopefully the turn around time to fix it will be short.
November 5th, 2008 at 11:05 am
this, from the ray of hope dept.:
Nov 05, 2008 Results Status
Roughly 400,000 votes separate yes from no on Prop 8 – out of 10 million votes tallied.
Based on turnout estimates reported yesterday, we expect that there are more than 3 million and possibly as many as 4 million absentee and provisional ballots yet to be counted.
Given that fundamental rights are at stake, we must wait to hear from the Secretary of State tomorrow how many votes are yet to be counted as well as where they are from.
It is clearly a very close election and we monitored the results all evening and this morning.
As of this point, the election is too close to call.
Because Prop 8 involves the sensitive matter of individual rights, we believe it is important to wait until we receive further information about the outcome.
Geoff Kors Executive Committee NO on Prop 8
Kate Kendell Executive Committee NO on Prop 8
November 5th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Sorry about the vote John. While our film industry is far from Hollywood; You, your Husband (is Husband right?), and your whole family are welcome in Canada.
November 5th, 2008 at 11:35 am
I’m really sorry. I also am hoping this isn’t the end of it.
Since I guess I am de-lurking anyway, I appreciate all the helpful advice you post here.
November 5th, 2008 at 11:44 am
I find it appalling that so many minorities, who encounter so much discrimination themselves, could cast a vote in favour of discriminating an entire segment of the population. Well, I guess if it doesn’t discriminate against them, then it’s okay.
Sorry, John. You can always come up to Canada and get married again. Same-sex marriage isn’t in any danger of being repealed here. Enough people here are forward thinking enough that taking away someone’s rights is not something we’d like to do.
November 5th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
How long before the rest of the world finally just gives up on the gun-toting, race-obsessed, sex-hating-in-public-pornography-devouring-in-private thing that is the United States? They already buy less American goods, consume less American culture, and in the future will do anything to sever themselves from American economic woes.
I mean, seriously, the very fact that this got on the ballot much less passed, amidst all the ridiculous propaganda from the “Yes” side, is a greasy skidmark on the bright white underwear of the Obama victory morning.
November 5th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
John, maybe people would have been more sympathetic to your cause on Prop 8, if you had been a bit more sympathetic to the cause of Runaway Production, you know the attack on my fundamental right to stay employed in my home state.
November 5th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
How long do you think gays can continue to mock God before you suffer his wrath? Repent before it’s too late…
November 5th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
I’m sorry for the way things turned out, John. You have been a true leader on the right side of this issue — both vocally and financially — and I look forward to the day when your fight ends in victory. Civil rights can only be held back for so long, as we’ve seen time and again in this country.
November 5th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
John –
This is only a setback, not a let-down. This movement has made enormous leaps in the last few years, and while it might have lost a bit of ground (thanks also, Florida and Arizona), it’s not over. It is damn sure not over.
November 5th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Was shocked to hear the ban passed. I almost think the negative-positive language in the proposition was too much for some people to wrap their heads around.
I know it’s not of much consolation to you now, but I think it’s only matter of time before equal marriage rights are granted. Years from now, kids in history classes will study the Prop 8 ban and it will be right next to Jim Crow and Plessy v. Ferguson. They will shake their heads and be dumbfounded.
November 5th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
I, too, am sorry that Prop 8 did not go down in flames as it deserved. California should lead, not lag behind places like CT and MA, in changing these kinds of regressive attitudes and truly protecting Civil Rights for all people.
November 5th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Don’t be sorry, be offended. Be angry. Even electing our first black President, we still haven’t made a nation where all men truly are created equal. It is not simply gay couples who are hurt by this, it is every person who takes pride in being American. They cannot take away what is right and just. The fight will come again.
November 5th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Today I feel disconnected and vulnerable. I scrutinize random faces in the crowd and have to wonder, maybe these nice people are not as friendly as they look. About half of them obviously disapprove of me and my gay relationship. The majority just told me that there is possibly something wrong with me. They say my love isn’t sacred and that it isn’t special. That it’s not like theirs. I know it’s not true, they would never say that if they really knew me, they never could. Yet, here we are, their judgment cast. For me to cast aside.
“Change has come to America”. Well, keep coming.
November 5th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Rob Roy, yes, you hit the nail on the head. If John had decided not to take the trip to France, then Proposition 8 would have been overwhelmingly shot down. If only he had realized the correlation.
And if you notice, you’re the only one here who wasn’t sympathetic. The rest were rightly outraged by a seemingly progressive state taking a step backwards in civil rights. Now if only they can repeal the law that allows different races to marry, then families will certainly be better off!
November 5th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
People are stupid. That is the only explanation for Prop 8 passing. Stupid and scared. Why do people care so much about everyone but themselves? If gay people want to get married, who cares? It changes nothing about your own marriage despite what the propaganda says.
So stupid.
November 5th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
I agree with the second paragraph of DJ’s comment. I hadn’t thought of it myself, but I agree with it, and I look forward to it.
Also agree with Earl Newton, Chris, and batutta’s “two steps forward, one step back.”
Next up: another step forward. It will come.
November 5th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
Seems to me people who want to be married should be able to be (and stay) married. Ridiculous. I’m so sorry. Take care and have some amazing chocolatey pastry things in France. I am really bummed.
November 5th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Hey John,
You were in my thoughts when I heard the projected results to Prop 8. Needless to say, I was shocked. It is my hope that voters were just so badly informed and misled that they didn’t truly know what they were voting on… that is my hope.
Regardless, I know this will be overturned. But, I’m deeply sympathetic to you and your family for having to go through this outcome, and disappointed – and frankly angry – with my fellow Californians.
Keep up the great work. And thanks for the blog!!
November 5th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
I’m in a state of disbelief over this whole thing. I simply cannot fathom how this could have passed in the year 2008. My sympathies to you and your family. Rest assured that the fight will not end here. In the meantime, I’ll add to the several invitations already extended to you: Consider coming up to Canada. Nothing will be changing here regarding marriage laws anytime soon.
November 5th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
Condolences man. I can only hope this means that this will be a larger battle that when won will affect the entire country. I wish you and your Husband the very best.
November 5th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
I’m checking in from the Paris, and jet-lagged, but thank you for your (mostly) positive comments. There is obviously a lot to say and write about What Happened, but here’s the outline of where my thoughts are this morning. (It’s morning here.)
My rights as a person are safer with Obama as President. While his direct support would have made the difference, gay people are citizens in his world rather than threats. So if I had to choose between defeating Prop 8 and electing Obama, I would obviously pick Obama.
The Prop 8 supporters who assured voters that this wouldn’t change anything for gay people (“We know gay people! We love gay people! This isn’t anti-gay at all!”) — their names are duly noted. In the next few months, as the court battles begins, you’ll those same names spinning a completely different story as they challenge even adoption rights. (Witness Arkansas.)
I’ve already heard from enough previously-complacent straight people who are shocked and angry that I think real change can come. I think they realize that if they’d paid attention two months ago, this would have worked out differently.
The No on 8 campaign got a lot better in its final weeks, but by that point, the damage had been done. It’s easy to chastise the rich gays for not doing more, but when chicken welfare gets more support than marriage rights, I think it speaks to gross misapplication of political energy.
November 6th, 2008 at 12:02 am
Perhaps you need a radical reformation the concept of marriage. There should be a new proposition reading , “Marriage performed by the state is not valid or recognized in California”.
Religious groups would still be able to marry people, the state would not. Couples who wish to form a union, straight or gay, would receive a civil union from the state. Marriage would be administered by the church depending on their own values and beliefs; some churches may offer gay marriage, it’s up to them.
This would not pass, it may not even make in onto the ballot, but it would be a slap in the face for those who see marriage as an exclusively heterosexual union or exclusively a union of God
Deepest sympathies and best of luck getting this grossly unjust, discriminatory situation resolved.
November 6th, 2008 at 1:29 am
Investing time and effort to STRIP people of their rights is one effed up endeavor. What’s the next step? Go to court? Rallies? Burn this motha down?
November 6th, 2008 at 4:05 am
welcome in Paris John ! Hope you like our greyish weather! If you have a chance to speak to our mayor (Bertrand Delanoe, who happen to be gay)while scouting the city, you may drop him a comment or two about the prop8 issue. He may give some valuable support to the cause or at least petition for it.
enjoy your stay, we have nice croissant and stuff :D
November 6th, 2008 at 6:28 am
Do they not see how this is counter-productive to their cause?!
It is a scientific fact that marriage kills a sex-life! Just thank the nay-sayers and tell them what great “blasphemous” sex you’re having with your partner! That’ll take the smile off their face!
Keep your head up.
November 6th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Have a safe trip.
The results of prop 8 were just a step back. My same-sex marriage and yours will continue to serve as motivation for this movement to continue.
Take care.
November 6th, 2008 at 9:46 am
I’ve long been opposed to the proposition system precisely because it affords no protection for minority rights (not to mention the fact that I don’t think most voters are qualified to vote on the issues that are often put before them). At the federal level, our system of government protects minority rights (which is why it was possible to end segregation in the Deep South long before the majority of white southerners were ready to let it go), and does not allow individual voters to overrule the reasoned, constitutionally-based decisions of the Supreme Court. At the federal level, the three branches of government make law, not individual citizens, who are generally not well-informed enough about the issues and about the constitutional underpinnings of our system of government to make the kinds of decisions that California voters made on Tuesday. The good news, if there is any, is that one day, gay rights will be protected under federal law — and that will be the end of the discussion. I am not hopeful that this will come from the Supreme Court (with the current composition of the court it seems unlikely), but I do hope that Congress and our next President will have the moral vision to pass and sign into law legislation that extends the equal protection that is guaranteed under the U.S. constitution to the gay and lesbian citizens of this nation. Until then, here’s hoping that the marriages that took place before Tuesday will still stand under California law.
In other news… @ Tim W.
“I find it appalling that so many minorities, who encounter so much discrimination themselves, could cast a vote in favour of discriminating an entire segment of the population. Well, I guess if it doesn’t discriminate against them, then it’s okay.”
As an African-American, and a lifelong supporter of gay rights, I must take offense. It would be nice if “minorities” supported gay rights, just as it would be nice if women supported women’s rights (which they often don’t), but lumping all minorities together as you’ve done (and by “minorities” I assume you mean African-Americans) continues the long tradition of treating African-Americans as if we are a monolith rather than individuals who are motivated by as complex an array of factors as are whites. The fact is that, right or wrong, those African-Americans who are most likely to oppose gay marriage do not see it as an equal protection issue (as I do) but as a religious issue. In this they are no different than their white evangelical counterparts. If you’d like to lump the proponents of Prop 8 together, lump them together based on what they actually have in common, which is not their race, but their evangelical beliefs and a related belief that their values ought shape our public policy. I’d go so far as to say that many African Americans who voted yes on Prop 8 voted not as “African-Americans”, but as evangelicals.
And for the record… I don’t know a single African-American who voted yes on Prop 8. Everyone I know, black, white, Asian and Latino (except for a single white evangelical friend of a friend) , voted no.
November 6th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
In addition to offering my support (I’m out of state and I’m proud to say I contributed a bit to fight 8) and disappointment, I’d like to add one thing.
What the fuck is up with a state only requiring 50% simple majority to amend their constitution?? I’m glad where I live it requires three fifths.
I guess at least that means that if it survives a court challenge, repealing it in a couple years won’t be as high a hurdle. And the demographics are on the right side, the voting on this was strongly connected to age. Worst case, you’ll just have to wait for enough old bigots to die off. I definitely feel that if not gay marriage, civil unions that contain 100% the benefits of marriage are inevitable – the question isn’t IF but WHEN. And when enough states reach an enlightened state, protection at the national level should be possible as well.
So in California, how close are the benefits of civil unions and marriages (at least now, assuming people will try and use prop 8 to chip away at civil unions)?
November 6th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Marriage is a secular institution. Why people’d want to deny others the right to enter into a marriage contract – on some religious grounds — is beyond me.
Seriously, medieaval France was more enlightened. They had gay marriage then. I read about this in the papers a few months back; some historian (English? French?) unearthed this factlet and wrote a book that came out last year.
Or more correctly: What the French had all this time ago was domestic partnership contract.
Say a brother and a sister inherit the farm they grew up on (or two brothers or two sisters). It so happens that neither marries but they live together and they run the farm together. In this case becoming domestic partners was an option. This was a contract that was akin to marriage in many important aspects, for instance in terms of legal rights and obligations; it consolidated what was actually a permanent relationship and it conferred a certain status on the two people involved. Instead of being two sorry individuals they became one entity, legally and in the eyes of the community.
Same sex friends who took up residence together could also enter into this contract.
If the two friends slept together and had sex together — well, that would have been their private business. I rather imagine medieaval France didn’t tolerate overt homosexual display, not in ordinary small communities at any rate.
The historian speculated that this domestic partnership arrangement was probably a haven for gay people at the time, that is, for the ones who wanted to settle into a permanent relationship.
Thing is, marriage isn’t about sex. Ok, sex is important, a sexless or bad-sex marriage is a tragedy. But marriage isn’t ABOUT sex. Marriage is about entering into the most important relationship in your life and making a success of it. A lot of people fail, many people marry twice or three times or more times. But that’s their shortcomings or bad luck or whatever. It doesn’t reflect badly on the institution of marriage.
I wouldn’t have known about this proposition 8 if it wasn’t for this blog. Now it appears that John August’s perfectly legal marriage is in danger of being revoked.
I fully agree with Paula Puryear, this is not an issue that should be settled by popular vote.
November 6th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Prop 8 just f-up my day…..and the rest of everyone else on the WestSide. Two groups of demonstrators……one at a mormon church, the other at the Charlie’s Angel’s federal building…….Wilshire & Santa Monica on-off ramps shut down. Police tactical units mobilized….it’s a parking lot out here.
Nothing says your pissed like shutting down the city………:)
November 6th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Paula…while I find Tim W to say to be off the mark his commment had a lot of truth to it. If you look at the exit polls the demographics are telling: Whites were in favor (of ‘no) by a slim but comfortable margin, hispanics were against it by a slight margin, and African-Americans were against by roughly 70-30. Homophobia is alive and well in the African-American community–which brings me back to the debate that went on in these forums a few months back…some people (including I think Tim W) said anyone who was for the prop was a ‘dick’ and my position was that is not an effective way to persuade those opposed to the proposition. My thinking is that people who are well educated (regardless of race) and exposed to a diversity of lifestyles are surely overwhelmingly open to the idea (or institution) of same-sex marriage. However, not everyone is blessed with a quality education and not everyone has been exposed to a diversity of lifestyles…to assert those people are ‘dicks’ because they oppose same-sex marriage is a significant reason why this measure passed. Rule number 1 in politics/debate is to persuade the persuadable…I fear the opponents of this initiative ignored that rule…
November 6th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
John my sympathies. I tried to post a link to a website here once before and it was deleted. Hopefully this one will work. Everyone please visit, sign the petition for Prop8 and pass along:
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/seg5130/petition.html
November 7th, 2008 at 9:46 am
@Mike, I don’t know how close marriage and civil unions are, but under civil unions, none of the protections of federal law apply, and it’s unclear whether the rights of gay and lesbian couples who marry in one state will be recognized when they visit or move to another state (e.g. what happens if your spouse is seriously injured while you’re visiting a state where gay marriage is illegal. Can you visit him/her in intensive care?). This is why gay marriage must ultimately be addressed at the national level. It’s very similar to what happened with interracial marriage. Different states had different laws until the Supreme Court of the United States handed down its decision in Loving v. Virginia striking down Virginia’s anti-miscegenation laws on grounds that they violated the 14th Amendment Equal Protection clause.
@lippyone, I agree 100%. The only thing I take issue with is the phrase “the” African-American community. No one talks about “the” white community. They talk instead about white working class men, white evangelicals, white college educated men, white women (which is also too narrow since there’s lots of class and political and religious diversity in that group as well). I’m hungry for that level of nuance to be applied to minorities as well so that people like me are part of the national discussion as well.
November 7th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Here’s hoping for sunny day’s in Paris John!
Isn’t California a funny, fickle place? We resoundingly support the President elect and all he stands for except allmost all of the prop’s on the table which, going off his platform, he would have supported. At times CA (and I love her dearly) does show her true colors. A conservative State beneath a blanket of progressive rhetoric.
Anyway, the demonstrations the last few days may bring about some sanity at some point. Let’s hope so for everyone’s sake. Of all the rejected prop’s that one really shocked me.
Enjoy the sights and sounds regardless!! common sense will prevail one way or another.
November 7th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Paula Puryear, I’m sorry my statement offended you, but I meant exactly what I said. At the time I had written the statement, I had read that most minorities had overwhelmingly voted for the proposition. My point was I thought they would be a little more sensitive to what is (whether some see it or not) a civil rights issue. I’m not denigrating, or lumping together, an entire race, but just going on the numbers I had seen. If you read my post, I said that “so many minorities” not minorities in general. As it turns out, there was an overwhelming yes vote from african american voters, whereas everyone else was split pretty evenly. Frankly, the fact that 70% of african american voters voted yes is obviously indicative of a problem. And a friend of mine who is black and from California (which I am not) feels exactly the same way I do.
And I also have a problem with the white people who voted for the proposition, too, but I’m not exactly shocked that half of them voted to turn the clock back. I just expected those who encounter prejudice more to be more sensitive to the issue.
And those african americans who hide behind the bible while voting for the proposition should remember that the bible doesn’t have a problem with slavery.
November 7th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Here is an excerpt from an article in the LA Times about the African American vote on Prop 8.
[...] Partly that was the result of the canny “Yes on 8″ campaign, which told the black community, accurately, that Obama did not favor same-sex marriage, but did not mention that he opposed Proposition 8. Partly it was because the “No on 8″ side never matched such tactics with an effective counterattack. And in part it was because many African Americans, who tend to have strong ties to their churches, believe that same-sex marriage is immoral.
It’s especially meaningful today to reflect on Loving vs. Virginia, the 1967 Supreme Court case that ended laws against interracial marriage in this country. The state judge who ruled against the Lovings had reasoned that a marriage as nontraditional as that between a white man and a black woman was ungodly. “Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, Malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents,” he wrote. “The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.”
The high court banished that argument with these transformative words: “Marriage is one of the ‘basic civil rights of man,’ fundamental to our very existence and survival. … Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the state.”
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-ed-prop8-6-2008nov06,0,5635056.story
Hard to believe that interracial marriages in the US were argued to be ungodly – until 1964.
November 7th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
I would like to thank “Tim W.” and “Lippyone” for continuing the fine tradition of blaming my racial group for everyone else’s problems.
Among a long list that includes stealing your jobs, increasing crime in your community, etc., you now add denying homosexuals the right to marry.
I particularly enjoyed Lippyone’s observations of how we bask in our homophobia and are basically just uneducated morons, and Tim W’s rambling judgmental insight into a community of which he is not even a member. Bravo, Lippyone and Tim W.
But don’t be offended. I’m not suggesting that either of you is racist. That’s ridiculous. You’re not burning crosses in my front yard.
Instead, you’re just typical. In some ways, it’s mildly reassuring. Your predictable judgmental nonsense comforts me. Predictability is comforting even when from the asinine.
I don’t live in California, but I think using a state constitution (that should be protecting people’s rights) to deny them to anyone is shameful.
But after reading some of these comments, I almost wish I had voted for Prop. 8 so I would at least be guilty of what the socially enlightened racial groups apparently accuse me of being.
To those homosexuals who were married before us ignorant black folk denied marriages for the rest of you, I welcome you to the club of unreasonably higher expectations.
You now have the pressure of having to maintain a marriage that will be expected to be more solid than heterosexuals who get to enjoy divorce rates exceeding 50%. When heterosexuals divorce, it’s just another screwed up marriage. When homosexuals divorce, some will say it’s because you don’t consider it as sacred as heterosexuals. It will be cited as evidence as you didn’t really deserve it. As an added bonus, you can’t even remarry in California now.
African-Americans are used to these higher expectations. Whenever we gain entry where we had previously been denied because of either our own genuine shortcomings or the active denial of others, we have to be the “best ever” in order to deserve it.
For example, none of us can have the same ignorant prejudices of others. We have to be the models of tolerance or we will be condemned for not being so. Otherwise, people will say things like “I guess if it doesn’t discriminate against them, then it’s okay” and bring up slavery every time they want to criticize us.
Slavery. That sure did suck. Thanks for the constant reminder, white people. We work hard to try to show we deserved your gracious emancipation. The disproportionate number of African-Americans in prison are a reminder that our freedom can only be temporary.
Poor Obama. He’s going to have to be the best President ever. Otherwise, he didn’t deserve it.
Right, Lippyone and Tim W?
November 7th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
@ ALL
Prop 8 Protest & Rally Saturday Nov. 8th, @ 6PM @ Silverlake Junction – The Corner of Sunset Blvd. & Santa Monica)
C’mon… I’ll give you a t-shirt.
November 8th, 2008 at 1:09 am
Chris, it’s obvious you’re highly offended by my (and lippyone’s) comment. Not to be blunt, but get over it. There is a higher degree of homophobia in the african american community. It’s a fact of life. Just about every african american friend I have has told me this very thing. Calling it racist isn’t helping anything. No one is blaming the african american community for voting in the proposition, except maybe you. We’re pointing out a problem. If political correctness has become so rampant that we must close our eyes to problems for fear of offending, then the problem is worse than I thought. All I said was that I was appalled that there were people who had suffered prejudice in their life who didn’t seem to sympathize with others who were in a similar situation. Since you didn’t seem to vote for the proposition, I don’t believe I was referring to you.
And just for the record, I never said I was or wasn’t any particular race. I just said I wasn’t from California. I’m Canadian. I’m also not gay, but I can see an injustice when I see it.
November 8th, 2008 at 6:13 am
Tim W., I take it back. I wrote that you weren’t racist, just a typical white person.
Instead, you’re racist as hell.
Your ignorant white supremacy angers me. Your repeated belief that you are in a superior position to judge my race reveals your true racism.
If I were to write to homosexuals in California, “Not to be blunt, but get over” Prop. 8, they would probably be offended and I would definitely be wrong for doing so, but a racist such as yourself sees nothing wrong with that statement when applied to me. That’s the mantra of racists. Slavery? Get over it. Unequal pay for equal work? Get over it. Disproportionate number of your people in prison? Get over it. White racism? Get over it. Separate but equal? Get over it.
Racism is not freedom from political correctness – although every racist loves to dress it in that gown. You are not in any position to judge my race of people. You are not even an American. You don’t have enough problems in Canada that you have to interject yourself into ours? Isn’t it annoying when Americans do something similar by sending a military force into a country? You don’t have enough faults with your own race that you have to criticize mine?
I find it strange that you keep writing “people who had suffered prejudice in their life who didn’t seem to sympathize with others who were in a similar situation.” Those that commit child abuse were often abused as children themselves. Much is made of “breaking the cycle” of child abuse. Learned behavior and all that other stuff that ignorant black people like me can’t comprehend. You ignore all of that to take the opportunity to criticize those ignorant black people that are stealing your TVs, your jobs, and now your marriage licenses.
As usual, a white person such as yourself does not allow black people to have any of the faults that you casually enjoy. None of us can be ignorant like you. None of us can be racist like you. We have to be perfect – or we should be thrown back into the shackles because we don’t really deserve what we’ve gained.
If opponents of Prop. 8 want to make it about race (or more generally, “us vs. them” in any sense), that will guarantee future bans on gay marriage. You’re not part of the solution, Tim W. You’re just another racist who is too lazy to burn a cross in my yard.
If African-Americans are to blame for Prop. 8, shouldn’t the Prop. 8 opponents stop wasting time protesting at those Mormon churches? Are they going to be protesting at an African-American church next?
I’m thinking that they will not. It’s too easy to call that racist – BECAUSE IT IS RACIST.
But that’s what you would be doing Tim W. if you weren’t Canadian and lazy about your racism. If you were a little more active in your beliefs, you would go to California and protest in front of a large black church and try to wise up those ignorant black people. Maybe carry a sign with a passively racist message on it. Maybe get on TV.
[sarcasm] I’m sure the Prop. 8 opponents would love you for it. [/sarcasm]
I wish you could do it. I’d pay for you to go to California to do it, except that I’m living on public assistance in public housing and have 15 children I have to support by selling crack and meth (with a little pimping on the side – juz a little tho cuz thaz how I be rollin’, know what I’m saying).
Then, the people you claim to support would be as annoyed and angered by you as I.
November 8th, 2008 at 8:48 am
Chris, I’m not going to get into a namecalling match, here, but I don’t feel you’ve understood the comments I wrote or perhaps my comments weren’t clear enough. I’ll just leave it at that, because you are in attack mode. It’s not a discussion you’re looking for. It’s a fight. You can find it somewhere else.
November 8th, 2008 at 9:07 am
I think NO on 8 ran the WORST campaign ever. A campaign for gay marriage that is too scared to show gay couples in their ads???? It lacks the power of its own conviction (file under: log cabin republicans, internalized homophobia, etc.)
The campaign failed to state what it stands FOR. It failed to state concrete goals that voters can support and instead went off into the ethereal with abstract slogans like “equality for all”. Equal? I thought gays are different…
Just look at their website now. It looks like two pedophiles are ushering away two kids into the night. They’re hiding the kids under two towels. What are they doing to the kids under the towels? Why are they hiding? Why don’t they show their faces? Where are they taking the kids?
I’d like to donate again to support gay marriage, but not to these people.
November 8th, 2008 at 9:17 am
Chris, we can all disagree on interpretation of the results, but the fact is that black voters favored prop 8 at a much higher rate than any other ethnicity, 69%. White voters were slightly on the “no” side.
I don’t think it’s racist to not ignore that number, and I don’t think it’s racist to be disappointed by it.
Frankly I’m disappointed in ALL the people who voted yes on it, regardless of race or religion – it’s not my fault if particular groups of people had higher degrees of support for it.
Hypothetically, if a measure giving civil rights to african americans failed with most italian americans supporting it and most swedish americans opposing it, you wouldn’t feel that the swedes held some responsibility for that failure?
November 8th, 2008 at 11:35 am
Mike, when you write “Hypothetically, if a measure giving civil rights to african americans failed with most italian americans supporting it and most swedish americans opposing it, you wouldn’t feel that the swedes held some responsibility for that failure?”
The difference between you and I is that I don’t go looking for a racial group to blame for everything.
But you need to blame me.
It doesn’t matter to you that the largest number of the people that voted for Prop. 8 were White, Asian, Hispanic, and everything else except African-American. Instead, you want to absolve yourself of that by pointing out that a larger percentage of African-Americans voted for it. That way, you feel better. That way, you prove your “enlightenment.”
Passive racism doesn’t really bother me. I can deal with its existence – except when you defend it. It only angers me when you try to defend it. You’ll keep citing percentages or something when the foundation for why you’re doing citing them in the first place is inherently racist. You and others like Tim W. don’t get it – and probably never will.
Mike, when you write “I don’t think it’s racist to be disappointed by” the number of African-Americans that voted for Prop. 8, why are you disappointed?
Are you an African-American and voted against it, or are you just passing the judgment upon my racial group that you believe your ethnic superiority entitles you?
A quick check reveals that African-Americans represented only 10% of the 11 million California voters on election day. 5.7 million of those 11 million voters supported Prop. 8. People here have tossed out numbers like 60%+ of African-Americans supported Prop. 8.
Let’s make it easy for you and me. I’m black, so I can’t understand these abstract percentages, because according to Lippyone, I’m some uneducated animal casting ballots while wearing a “Repent Gays” T-shirt. Let’s say 100% of the 1.1 million African-Americans voted for it. Even I can understand 100%.
That means 4.6 million people that aren’t African-American voted for Prop. 8 if my substandard subtraction skills are correct. I’m going to take a risk here and apply some fancier math and claim that is over 4 times the TOTAL number of African-Americans that voted in California.
Now, I’m going to ask why is there some need to point the finger at my racial group when easily over 4 times the amount of African-Americans voters that chose to support Prop. 8 and WERE NOT African-American?
African-Americans are not responsible for the drug-addicted children that poor parenting skills created. We’re not responsible for every crime that occurs in our communities.
And we’re not responsible for revoking the right for homosexuals to marry.
4.6 million other people are.
Save your “disappointment” comments about my racial group. You’ve been shoveling that crap in our direction for years. We’re not the largest minority group anymore so you can direct all of that to our successor – the Hispanic community.
If you want to guarantee a lack of African-American support for homosexual marriage rights, keep spouting your ignorance nonsense about how we’re to blame for denying them.
Ignorance is alive and well among all racial groups, but the Prop. 8 supporters eagerness to target African-Americans for the actions of 4.6 million other people is “disappointing.”
November 8th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Looking at the geography of the Prop 8 results by county is actually a bit disheartening (for gay marriage supporters) and shows how much work still lies ahead. The map shows that most counties in California voted in favor of bannig gay marriage with percentages near 60% and 70%. Some rural places like Kern County went as high as 75%. I don’t know California well enough to draw conclusions about the demographics, but it looks like it has little to do with African Americans. It’s more to do with California’s non-descript suburban colonies, desert folks, mac mansions and crystal cathedrals.
On the other hand, since African Americans represent 10% of the total vote it means that if 50% of them had voted in favor of gay marriage than Prop 8 would have been defeated. Next time, maybe.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/cal/la-2008election-prop8prop22,0,6153805.htmlstory
November 8th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Paula P…you are absoulutely right I inelegently ascribed the 70/30 vote to the African American Community when I am sure if you applied cross-tabs to that demographic you’d find a great deal diverse thinking…you might even find a conservative who supports gay marriage :-) My point wasn’t in about the support that came from a sub-set of the community for prop 8 it was the dismissive nature with which some of the people on this forum dismessed people who supported ‘yes’ as being ‘dicks’. You’d have to read thea earlier forums…(could be a fun waste of 20 minutes). I was not blaming those folks who voted Yes (black or otherwise) because I don’t think the oppostion ever really, truly took the opportuinty to engage them in a dialogue. To me it is incredibilly obvious that exposure to the pro gay marriage argumeent can only help convince those opposed. Not everyone but a few, maybe even enough…either way it sure beats calliong them dicks!
November 8th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Chris my comment was simple, and meant in a context of engagement,but let me sum it up for you:
Apparently, African American Voters voted 70/30 against Prop 8…Do you contest that?
I proposed that if you were to look at the results relative highly educated Aftican Americans that these numbers would be very different: i.e. they’d tend to support a ‘no’ vote just like educated people of any color.
But as a consequence of our collective shame African Americans in Califonria on the aggregate have received an inferior education or no eductioin at all…these voters, young and old, are the ones who drive the 70/30 prop 8 vote…
Chris…if you are mad that my comment implied that African American eductioational attaitment in California is lagging, you oughtn’t be mad at me. You should be mad at the state’s education system. You should aslo question the faith community in the africant american communicty in driving no support for Prop9 no.
November 9th, 2008 at 6:24 am
Lippyone, when you write “Apparently, African American Voters voted 70/30 against Prop 8…Do you contest that,” what I contest is your need to point the finger at my racial group for the actions of 5.7 million people that supported Prop. 8.
Even if EVERY African-American that voted in California had voted for Prop. 8, that would only be 1.1 million people. Those that supported Prop. 8 that were not African-American were easily FOUR TIMES the ENTIRE NUMBER of African-American voters.
So, why do you keep pointing out that African-Americans voted in some percentage for Prop. 8?
Well, it’s the same thing you’ve been doing for years. It’s the blacks fault. You consider yourself as doing “your part.” You would have succeeded if not for the actions of those ignorant blacks. Pointing out how African-Americans voted makes you feel better even thought about 4.6 million other people had a hell of a lot more to do with it. You ignore the massive number of people who voted for Prop. 8 and selected your historical scapegoat that was only 10% of the vote.
You, Tim W., and Mike are just fu*?ing poseurs. Maybe because it’s John August’s website and you want to be screenwriters. Maybe because you’re poseurs 24/7.
You’re not “socially enlightened.” Your passive racism betrays you. Your need to blame me for a society’s collective failure reveals you. Your need to continue pressing your ignorant judgment upon my racial group over and over and defend it with more condemns you.
Lippyone, you’re a racist. You’ll probably throw out some percentage to defend yourself – and ironically continue to confirm it.
Your need to scapegoat one racial group for the collective action of 5.7 million of which a vast supermajority were not African-American is racist. Your need to continue providing your speculative ignorant judgment about my racial group is racist.
You don’t understand that. You don’t “get it.” You probably will never.
That’s why I don’t think you, Tim W., or Mike opposed Prop 8. anymore than the Mormon church. For you to be so fundamentally (yet passively) racist and yet claim to support civil rights for a group of people is incomprehensible.
November 9th, 2008 at 11:56 am
@Tim W:
Actually, the Bible DOES have a problem with slavery.
While the Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery, it does call it evil in 1 Timothy 1:10. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw the practice altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery.
What many people fail to understand is that slavery in Biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more of a social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their family. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their master.
The slavery of the past few centuries was often based exclusively on skin color. Black people were considered slaves because of their nationality – many slave owners truly believed black people to be “inferior human beings” to white people. The Bible most definitely does condemn race-based slavery. Consider the slavery the Hebrews experienced when they were in Egypt. The Hebrew were slaves, not by choice, but because they were Hebrews (Exodus 13:14). The plagues God poured out on Egypt demonstrate how God feels about racial slavery (Exodus 7-11). So, yes, the Bible does condemn some forms of slavery. At the same time, the Bible does seem to allow for other forms of slavery. The key issue is that the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.
November 9th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Chris…you my friend have some serious issues. I NEVER sought to blame african americans for the way the vote went. I did note that anti-homosexual views are stronger in the black community than in any other community. That is a fact…if that makes me racist in your mind I feel sorry for you. I’m sure that if you looked at low income, religious, less educated people of any race you’d find a lot of YES votes.
November 9th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
“The disproportionate number of African-Americans in prison are a reminder that our freedom can only be temporary.”
Ah yes… the old prison argument. Perhaps the disproportionate number of young black men in prison has something to do with the disproportionate number of young black men in street gangs. Their numbers grow continuously, as do the number of young Latinos joining street gangs.
They’re joining as young as 11 and 12 years old now, becoming completely indoctrinated into the “thug life.” By the time they’re old enough to be sent to prison, prison itself is not something to be avoided, but rather a mark of manhood.
This has more to do with a lack of adult male role models that anything else, but we’ll just wink and say that it’s racism putting these young criminals in jail.
As for Prop 8, as a Christian I’m sick of conservative Christian groups trying to bend the laws of America to match what they consider the laws of God.
My religious belief is that marriage is between a man and a woman. My belief as an American is that my religious beliefs belong in church and not in the Constitution. That’s why I voted “No.”
Any of these Christians shaking their fists and spewing hate toward other people whose lives they don’t agree with should study the Bible a bit more often. Christ made a point of staying out of the politics of his day. (“Give Caesar what is his…”) He never urged people to rise up and change the laws of their land. That’s because the laws of our land don’t mean anything at all in the kingdom of God.
America was based on freedom of religion and SEPARATION of church and state. Christians should stay out of politics and stay in church. ‘Nuff said.
November 9th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Lippyone: “I NEVER sought to blame african americans for the way the vote went.”
Yet you wrote:
“If you look at the exit polls the demographics are telling: Whites were in favor (of ‘no) by a slim but comfortable margin, hispanics were against it by a slight margin, and African-Americans were against by roughly 70-30. Homophobia is alive and well in the African-American community”
Homophobia is apparently only “alive and well” in my community. You characterize your racial group as opposing Prop. 8 by a “slim but comfortable margin.” That language reveals what racial group to which you belong and your desire to absolve it of any responsibility for that Prop. 8 vote. A slim margin isn’t comfortable just like salt isn’t sweet. Your characterization of the vote reveals your inherent racism.
Lippyone: “I did note that anti-homosexual views are stronger in the black community than in any other community. That is a fact”
Based on what? A fu*?ing exit poll in one state? An exit poll prepared by the same people that prepared the one that indicated John Kerry won the presidency four years ago? An exit poll that doesn’t even use a statistical sample? An exit poll that simply represents the views of those who want to complete it?
Your need to be judgmental about my race so you can feel better about yourself is what makes you racist. Do you know why you feel the need to pass judgment on an ENTIRE RACE of people of which you’re not even a member? BECAUSE YOU’RE A RACIST.
I’ve written before, and now again, that your passive racism doesn’t really bother me – except when you try to defend it. Your defense of your belief that you are somehow in a superior position to judge an entire race of people of which you do not belong is racist.
Mike E: “Ah yes… the old prison argument. This has more to do with a lack of adult male role models that anything else, but we’ll just wink and say that it’s racism putting these young criminals in jail.”
Ah yes… the old lack of male role models defense. You like to use this to explain why my racial group that represents 13% of the U.S. population represents 41.6% of state and federal prison inmates. Heck, you probably think my racial group represents that percentage of yes votes for Prop. 8.
There is a lot of speculative racist commentary that you provided, Mike W., but here’s your wake-up call that you won’t be answering.
A lack of male role models doesn’t have sh!t to do with sentencing – http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2008/03/bill-clinton-ad.html.
November 9th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Chris,
With respect, and I mean that, I truly have no agenda to defame African Americans…but if you don’t believe that anti-homosexual bias isn’t higher in the African American community as compared to other indentifiable race groups than I simply don’t know what to say. I could also point out that you’d find similar results from people who self describe as ‘very religious’. Does that make me anti-religion? Maybe my choice of words that homo-phobia is alive and well were poorly chosen, but the fact remains that there is an ironic wrinkle in the african american vote putting the yes vote over the top. Some would argue the marriage parity movement is the natural evolution of the civil rights movement.
Of course, I wouldn’t rely on exit polls to paint a broad brush on an entire community. But it is not a particularly provacative hypothesis. In fact President Obama said this year
“If we’re honest with ourselves, we’ll acknowledge that our own community has not always been true to King’s vision of a beloved community. We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them.”
November 9th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Chris, according to you, a person who claims there is high level of homophobic sentiment in the african american community is racist. Does that include african americans who have said this? Then it would have to include my african american friends who might be shocked to discover they are racist towards their own race. It would also have to include President-elect Barack Obama, who said “If we’re honest with ourselves, we’ ll acknowledge that our own community has not always been true to King’s vision of a beloved community. We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them…”
It’s troubling to discover that the US will have a racist in the White in a couple of months.
November 9th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Sorry, Lippyone, I read the last part of your post after I posted mine.
November 10th, 2008 at 6:05 am
Can we stop the racism talk and get back to gay-bashing please?
November 10th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
“Heck, you probably think my racial group represents that percentage of yes votes for Prop. 8.”
Chris, that sounds like someone who’s looking for racism wherever they can find it. I never said that. In fact, I never commented on African Americans and Prop 8 because I haven’t seen any of these numbers people are referencing. In the end, the percentages of race just don’t matter.
Voters in California passed Prop 8 by a fairly narrow margin. I think that’s because many of them see being gay as something to be afraid of. The other “undecideds” who went with them were probably scared by those stupid “they’ll teach gay stuff to your kids” commercials.
As a parent, I took particular note of the commercial that showed kids going to a gay wedding at City Hall in San Francisco. One thing that was never mentioned was that schools NEVER take students off campus without parents signing a permission slip. That means that every one of those kids had at least one parent who was okay with the trip.
Whatever. It’ll get struck down in court, but it’s a ridiculous notion that we still have to go through all the bureaucratic machinations for a certain group of people to have the same basic human rights as all the “normal” people.
And Chris, this is the last comment I’m going to leave, because as someone pointed out above, you’re obviously just seething for a fight about race.
I worked the streets for 13 years, kiddo. I’m not guessing about the number of young African Americans and Latinos being drawn into street gangs. I don’t need to read articles to speculate on what’s happening in the real world, outside the screen of my computer and the chip on my shoulder.
The issue is real, whether you want to admit it or not. Those poor kids are growing up without proper family guidance and they are incredibly susceptible to the message that the “thug life” is the way to be somebody. Hundreds of them go to jail in this country every day. Not because of their skin color, but because they committed a crime in the name of some street where they don’t even own property.
Sentencing is enhanced for people who commit crimes connected to street gangs. It’s our society’s version of throwing up our hands because we can’t figure out how to stop the violence. So we just hammer them with jail time to try and get them off the streets.
You can’t be sentenced if you don’t get convicted of a crime. But we don’t want to talk about that, do we?
November 10th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
PS – That article only talks about crack vs. powder cocaine sentencing. Where are the stats on driveby shootings, stabbings, robberies, etc. that street gangs consistently participate in?
But again… we don’t wanna talk about that.
November 10th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Lippyone: “I NEVER sought to blame african americans for the way the vote went.” Lippyone: “the fact remains that there is an ironic wrinkle in the african american vote putting the yes vote over the top.”
Rather than argue with a racist such as yourself, I’d rather watch you attempt to reconcile your contradicting statements. I want you to attempt to define a nuance between them that actually doesn’t exist. I want you to do as I expect and defend your passive racism.
5.7 million people voted for Prop. 8, but you only want to point the finger at the 10% of the overall vote that is represented by African-Americans.
The irony is that you’re predictable as any other racist. You defend your racism with more racist statements. The more you attempt to defend it, the more you clarify what only you and others like you would claim to be cloudy.
I feel sorry for John and other homosexuals who just want to have a family like anyone else. With supporters such as yourself, there is little chance of much improvement being made. You will harden the positions of those who opposed those equal rights, because you desperately need someone that is easier to target for blame than a collective group of 5.7 million people. You need to make an example of someone. At least the organizers of the Prop. 8 opponents are targeting some of the money that helped fund the “for” campaign. None of you here have enough sense to even recognize that.
Tim W: “Chris, according to you, a person who claims there is high level of homophobic sentiment in the african american community is racist.” Tim W: “I guess if it doesn’t discriminate against them, then it’s okay.”
According to me, blaming 10% of the voting population for the actions of 5.7 million people is racist regardless of the racial group that represents that 10%. Extending that criticism to make ignorant judgmental comments about a racial group to which you do not even belong is racist.
Lippyone and Tim W: “It would also have to include President-elect Barack Obama, who said…our own community has not always been true to King’s vision of a beloved community. We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them…”
Barack Obama is not king of the black people anymore than he is king of the white people. He is free to pass judgment without qualification, serve up speculation that satisfies his own opinion, and generally be as ignorant as anyone else. In this case of that speech, very ignorant. He cites a great civil rights leader in that speech – who was a Baptist minister.
King has no documented writings of his opinion on homosexuals. One could argue that Reverend King’s Christian beliefs are an indication that he would not have supported them. One could argue that one of Dr. King’s key aides being a homosexual is an indication that he would have supported them. There are multiple anecdotal accounts on both sides.
Notice how I refer to him as “Reverend” in one context and “Dr.” in the other? Those that cite King in support of homosexual rights use “Dr.” Those that oppose them use “Reverend.” It’s sort of like how Lippyone characterizes a “slim” margin as “comfortable” when she is talking about how her racial group voted. Word choice is always revealing even when the composer of them thinks they have hidden their bias.
So in King’s own church where King and his father both pastored and where Obama gave that speech, how do you think Obama refers to him? “Reverend” or “Dr.?” Maybe he splits the difference and uses both interchangeably?
Obama can’t use “Reverend” when arguing that King would have supported homosexual rights.
What would YOU have thought of Martin Luther King, Jr.’s involvement on Prop. 8? Which side do you think he would have supported?
Mike E: “Christians should stay out of politics and stay in church. ‘Nuff said.” Lippyone: “I could also point out that you’d find similar results from people who self describe as ‘very religious’.”
So please don’t cite anything referencing MLK in regards to Prop. 8 or a president-elect who decided to impose his beliefs on that of a dead man. We don’t know for certain what King thought. We can only provide ignorant speculation.
Those of you here have already argued that MLK has no place on Prop. 8, and he wouldn’t have supported them. He was a Christian so he should stay in church. He was “very religious” so he would have voted against Prop. 8. And, of course, he was black and those of you here agree that means he certainly would have voted for Prop. 8.
Mike E: “I worked the streets for 13 years, kiddo. Where are the stats on driveby shootings, stabbings, robberies, etc.”
Your dismissive nature of fact and your dwelling on racial stereotypes reeks “Rampart cop.”
November 11th, 2008 at 12:23 am
A black lesbian friend told me that she had a group of gays shout at her that it was her fault prop 8 won. She had no idea why she was being shouted at. Whatever the reason, it was racist and stupid.
On another matter: Keith Olbermann’s Prop 8 Special Comment: It’s “About The Human Heart” (VIDEO) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/10/keith-olbermanns-prop-8-sn142862.html
November 11th, 2008 at 9:34 am
eve,
Trouble, for me, with that link.
So I searched and found it, and perhaps this might work for others:
http://tinyurl.com/3nan3l
Good piece, and to a great degree he speaks for me.
– Dave
November 11th, 2008 at 9:38 am
Chris… I never worked for LAPD. And you still don’t want to address any points I brought up, even about the article you linked to. That’s typical for an idiot who just wants to argue, regardless of the facts he’s presented.
Here’s something very interesting that speaks to this issue. It was written by a theologian, no less:
David Weiss is a theologian and author of To the Tune of a Welcoming God (2008), http://www.davidweiss.com. He lives with his wife and children in St. Paul, Minnesota.
Sodomy and civil rights David R. Weiss, November 7, 2008
This country has a sodomy problem. And until we have the wisdom and the courage to be honest about what that means we’re not going to resolve the question of civil rights for homosexuals. We need to be clear about why sodomy is such a threat to the common good of civil society, why it undermines the family, and why it is such an evil when afoot in faith communities. It’s not going to be easy. But it needs to be done.
The word “sodomy” comes from a biblical text (Genesis 19) where the ancient city of Sodom is marked out for divine destruction because its evil ways so angered God. Sodomy names those who act like the inhabitants of Sodom.
Fine. But listen carefully. Not in this text—nor in any other biblical text—is there a condemnation of committed same-sex relationships. Not one. Not anywhere. There are a small handful of texts that condemn same-sex prostitution in pagan temples, and perhaps military rape and pederasty. But nowhere in the Bible is there a single word that condemns committed same-sex relationships.
To vote on Proposition 8 in California, or on any of the other state initiatives seeking to ban same-sex marriage, based on the Bible is the moral equivalent of using biblical texts to support slavery or apartheid. It is obscene.
So having cleared that up, let’s talk about the real problem here: sodomy. Acting like the inhabitants of Sodom.
The prophet Isaiah (1:10-17; 3:9-15) knew something about the reputation of those who lived in Sodom. He says they despised justice, especially for widows and orphans—those at the edges of family structures in the ancient world. And he says they built an economy that stole the goods of the poor. Likewise, the prophet Ezekiel (16:49) was also acquainted with the sodomy “lifestyle.” He rails against them because in the midst of their abundance they were indifferent to the needy.
Even Jesus, some 2000 years after its destruction, can employ a reference to Sodom with full effect. Twice (Matthew 11:19-24 and Luke 10:12) he invokes the memory of Sodom as a city condemned for its treatment of the marginalized and its lack of hospitality to sojourners.
For both the Hebrew prophets and the Christian Messiah sodomy is not about acting on same-sex attraction; it is clearly and unequivocally about social injustice and horrendous breeches of hospitality, of which the attempted gang rape of Lot’s guests is simply one final bit of damning evidence.
Sodomy, understood biblically, is the sin of creating social structures that systematically isolate those already at the margins of society. It is roundly condemned by the prophets and by Jesus. And for good reason. It destroys the fabric of families by teaching even the youngest children to dehumanize persons simply because of difference. It undermines the common good of society by scape-goating a minority in ways that contradict the very ideals we claim to hold in a democracy. And it is simply an unforgiveable evil in faith communities where it betrays the very messages of justice, mercy, and compassion that are at the heart of religious faith.
So let’s be clear: the desire to close off the protections afforded by marriage to persons living in committed same-sex relationships (and to their children) is itself an act of sodomy and it has no place in civil society or in communities of faith.
Further, when African-Americans and Hispanics vote in large numbers alongside conservative white Christians to ban same-sex marriage they ally themselves with the same strand of Christianity that in the past quoted other biblical texts just as effectively to justify genocidal policies toward Native Americans, xenophobic laws toward immigrants, and abominations like slavery, Jim Crow, and apartheid.
So, yes, this country has a sodomy problem. But so long as we think it has anything to do with gay sex we’ve missed the point of God’s outrage. Sodomy happens when any group uses their majority or their power to abuse and marginalize another group. That’s what happened in California, Arizona, Florida, and Arkansas on November 4. And it’s time for us, as citizens and as Christians, to stop acting like the inhabitants of Sodom.
November 11th, 2008 at 10:58 am
Mike E.: “I never worked for LAPD.”
Fair enough. You reek “racist judgmental cop.”
Some would argue that “racist cop” is an oxymoron. I wouldn’t.
“Judgmental cop” on the other hand? Not as much argument from me.
Mike E: “And you still don’t want to address any points I brought up, even about the article you linked to.”
You claimed that almost half of the prison population being African-American is due to a “lack of male role models.” I provided an article that is just one example of how sentencing is the issue (you can’t be in prison if you weren’t sentenced to it) – which doesn’t have anything to do with a lack of male role models. You then write about “stats on driveby shootings, stabbings, robberies, etc. that street gangs consistently participate in” and other rambling stereotypical garbage that I would expect from a racist judgmental cop as yourself.
Only a racist such as yourself would describe your stereotypical nonsense as a “point,” but you did note “Where are the stats…”
Good question, Mike E. Where are the stats supporting your racist stereotypical nonsense? Perhaps you should do a poll of your cop buddies to get the results that you want. It’s just as valid as an exit poll done outside a polling booth.
Mike E: “Here’s something very interesting that speaks to this issue. It was written by a theologian, no less: David Weiss is a theologian and author of To the Tune of a Welcoming God (2008), http://www.davidweiss.com. He lives with his wife and children in St. Paul, Minnesota.”
I’ve never heard of David Weiss before. I see that he’s a Lutheran. A Christian. You’re citing something he wrote about his opinion on the Prop. 8 vote and other votes that took place that day that restrain homosexual rights. Yet, you’ve already written “Christians should stay out of politics and stay in church. ‘Nuff said.”
Make up your fu%&ing mind, Mike E.
Mike E: “But listen carefully. Not in this text—nor in any other biblical text—is there a condemnation of committed same-sex relationships. Not one. Not anywhere. There are a small handful of texts that condemn same-sex prostitution in pagan temples, and perhaps military rape and pederasty. But nowhere in the Bible is there a single word that condemns committed same-sex relationships.”
Either you or Weiss is splitting hairs. Let’s not cite the Bible, please. It has many unpleasant things to say in general, such as:
Leviticus 20:1: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,… Leviticus 20:13: If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
In a technical hair-splitting context, that passage from Leviticus doesn’t condemn “same-sex relationships” for men. It condemns same-sex sexual relationships. I guess you or Weiss would claim that the Bible therefore provides for chaste homosexual male marriages? Ridiculous.
But even if true, why must a homosexual male marriage be chaste, but a heterosexual marriage can include sex? Equally ridiculous.
Mike E, your judgmental nonsense has already negated any Christian commentary (which, of course, would also include Martin Luther King, Jr.) from you, anyway.
November 11th, 2008 at 11:08 am
John, As usual your site is eventful, insightful. A pre-thanks to all who can find time to visit the new sight: SydrycalWorks.com about O.M.G.,H.B.
Keep it going, pass it on, gone
Sidney
November 11th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
“Mike E, your judgmental nonsense has already negated any Christian commentary (which, of course, would also include Martin Luther King, Jr.) from you, anyway.”
Actually, that whole thing was about being against Prop 8, knucklehead. But I’m all done feeding the trolls. Bye.
November 11th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Mike E: “Actually, that whole thing was about being against Prop 8, knucklehead.”
You did write “Christians should stay out of politics and stay in church. ‘Nuff said.” That means BOTH sides, idiot cop.
You can’t have it both ways. This isn’t one of your arrests. You can’t log the evidence that suits you and hide or destroy the rest. If “Christians should stay out of politics,” you can’t selectively cite the ones that you think benefit you. It’s all or nothing. It’s absolute just like your ignorant judgment. After all, you’re the one that wrote it.
Unbelievable. Do they require high school degrees for cops?
Mike E: “But I’m all done feeding the trolls.”
Is this the best that you can do when thoroughly and irrecoverably rebutted? I guess that’s why you were thoroughly and irrecoverably rebutted in the first place.
Mike E: “Bye.”
Don’t you have suspicious African-American or a laughably awful never-to-be-finished screenplay that needs your attention anyway?
If you come back, bring your cop buddy poll with you. Still looking for those “stats,” you know.
November 11th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
You guys. It’s not helpful AT ALL to blame any one particular racial group for this proposition’s loss. You may think your intentions are in the right place, but as a lurker, I agree with Chris that it’s going over the line to ascribe fault to any one racial community. Some of your comments are totally insensitive. Those who truly believe that everyone should hold the same rights should be committed to inclusiveness and community. CHILL OUT.
November 11th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Chris, Tim W., Mike E., Lippyone:
Ok, stop.
Please.
One of the main reasons I voted for Barack Obama was because it truly felt like I was listening to a human being that interested in understanding and ending the divisive nature in our culture. This is what the majority of America voted for last Tuesday. And now here you all are, all in your own ways, trampling over that dream on a writer’s blog.
On March 18, 2008, President Elect Obama delivered a speech now referred to as “A More Perfect Union” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrp-v2tHaDo). What I loved about that speech was how it wasn’t about a black man struggling against race in America. That speech was about everyone, every race and both genders, accepting responsibility for their own actions while maintaining the ability to recognize injustice.
Chris, I’m black. And yes, the truth is that black people tend to be more discriminatory towards gay people. Most of that has to do with religion and region. This isn’t a secret to anyone, especially other black people.
Tim W, Mike E., Lippyone, while what I said above is true, Prop 8 didn’t pass because of black people. That’s just stupid. Forget about just doing the simple math. Just think of this way: If every black Californian didn’t vote at all, Prop 8 still would have passed. And thinking that minorities, just because they’re minorities, don’t possess the same stupid way of thinking that white people do is well…stupid.
But it’s not racist.
Having a different point of view or not quite understanding why someone does or doesn’t do a certain thing does not make them racist. To simply declare someone as a racist because of their opinion is dangerous. It’s like declaring a Muslim a terrorist because of their religious beliefs.
We have a chance here. We actually have a real chance at changing the way the world thinks. We have a real chance of truly understanding one another. So let’s stop all the arguing. Let’s stop blaming one race or the other. Instead, let’s just work on making sure that everyone, EVERYONE, can have the same rights and privileges as their next door neighbor.
And to make this happen you guys need to stop. We all need to stop. And start working towards real change in our lifetimes.
On a personal note to John August:
California is trying to tell you that your marriage to your husband should be illegal. Much like my commitment to President Elect Barack Obama, I pledge to help in the fight to show the majority that they’re wrong.
November 11th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Eve’s black lesbian friend’s experience makes my point, which is how quoting a simple statistic about which percentage of each racial group voted for Prop 8 can unwittingly lead us away from greater understanding. It also plays into an age old trick of pitting oppressed minorities against one another. It happened in the Deep South, from Reconstruction through the recent past (if not the present), when poor whites were pitted against African-Americans. It happened again in recent years when blacks were pitted against largely latin american immigrants. And it happened last week when blacks were pitted against gays. Yes, in each case, this was easy to do. Poor Whites already felt animosity towards ex-slaves, whom they saw as their economic competitors. Low-paid African-American workers may have actually been in competition with low-paid immigrant workers for scarce jobs, and a high percentage of black voters did vote Yes on Prop 8, but let’s not lose sight of the larger analysis. Yes, 70% of black voters voted Yes on Prop 8. That’s a shame. Although only about 50% of white voters voted Yes, they make up the vast majority of those who voted yes. We gain nothing from making this a racial. As lippyone pointed out, to reduce this to race is simplistic and, unfortunately, inaccurate. Again, I don’t know a single black voter who voted Yes. Of course all my black friends are progressive, feminist, and anti-homophobia. Most are highly educated but some are not (though those few are artists, another group that tends to skew more liberal).
I also want to agree with lippyone about the importance of building a genuine bridge to voters who voted Yes for religious reasons. The one thing I learned from the one white evangelical voter that I spoke too, and from the white and black evangelical voters on the view (Sherry and Elizabeth) is that people who oppose gay marriage for religious reasons aren’t “hiding behind” their religion at all. They genuinely believe — erroneously, as it happen — that their religious beliefs are a relevant factor when making public policy. This reflects their ignorance of the U.S. Constitution, specifically, the 14th amendment (which gives us the equal protection clause) and the First Amendment (which guarantees evangelicals and he rest of us the freedom of religion, but does not give any of us the right to impose our religious beliefs or lack thereof on anyone else. The Yes on Prop 8 folks preyed on this ignorance and one over voters who didn’t know any better. The No on Prop 8 folks attempted to address some of this misinformation but did not ultimately succeed.
It’s worth nothing that Jefferson and Madison, who had the most to say about the separation of Church and State were deeply religious men who understood that in a free society, it must not be possible for even a majority to impose their religious beliefs on another). For these reasons alone, marriage rights should be extended to all, regardless of the religious beliefs of some, even a majority. So, yes, lippyone is right that educating people who oppose gay marriage is the one and only answer. We do not need to educate them to think “like us” but we do need to educate them about our system of government and how it works. And perhaps we need to educate the State of California, where Prop 8 should never have been allowed on the ballot. The Supreme Court’s decision should be final. Our courts and legislators must lead the way forward when the populace isn’t ready.
November 11th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Closing this thread simply because it’s a terrible place for this kind of discussion. We may get into it again next week when I’m back from France.