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	<title>Comments on: Shouldn&#8217;t I get credit for the outline?</title>
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	<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2008/credit-for-outline</link>
	<description>A ton of useful information about screenwriting.</description>
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		<title>By: Jake Hollywood</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2008/credit-for-outline/comment-page-1#comment-160993</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake Hollywood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 06:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnaugust.com/?p=1180#comment-160993</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Paula? Are you really a lawyer? I ask only because you response that a &lt;i&gt;treatment&lt;/i&gt; cannot be copyrighted only a script can. Ummmmm...you can copyright a grocery list if you so desire, so I&#039;m pretty sure you can copyright a treatment too.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paula? Are you really a lawyer? I ask only because you response that a <i>treatment</i> cannot be copyrighted only a script can. Ummmmm&#8230;you can copyright a grocery list if you so desire, so I&#8217;m pretty sure you can copyright a treatment too.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Paula Puryear</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2008/credit-for-outline/comment-page-1#comment-160707</link>
		<dc:creator>Paula Puryear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 17:48:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnaugust.com/?p=1180#comment-160707</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Hey Marley,&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I am a lawyer (so let me add to what Alice said and also agree with John. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Under U.S. copyright law you wouldn&#039;t have a leg to stand on, reams of paper documenting what you did versus what your boss did versus what the screenwriter did notwithstanding. The copyright for any work you do as an employee belongs to your employer unless you have specifically contracted otherwise. Also, as Alice said, copyright doesn&#039;t protect ideas, it protects the &quot;expression&quot; of the idea, which resides not in the treatment but in the screenplay and finished film (each of which are copyrightable works). &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Another way to look at this: Building a career isn&#039;t about getting credit for everything you do. It&#039;s about getting to the place where you can get credit. Sounds like you want to be a writer but you have a day job working for a producer, which gives you a great opportunity to learn about story and the reality of making movies. The work your boss asked you to do (and the extra mile that you went) gave you a chance to hone your skills at a time when you&#039;re not yet being hired to write. That&#039;s a great position to be in. Your boss gave you the opportunity to learn and a vote of confidence to boot. By being willing to be of service to her, you may have built a relationship that will serve you later, and at the very least you racked up some good karma points. Sometimes it&#039;s not about what you get but what you give. You&#039;ll get yours in due time.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;P.S. NYC/carribean ragazza -- Since I need to get back to my own writing, I&#039;ll say it here rather than going to your site. Congratulations!&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Marley,</p>

<p>I am a lawyer (so let me add to what Alice said and also agree with John. </p>

<p>Under U.S. copyright law you wouldn&#8217;t have a leg to stand on, reams of paper documenting what you did versus what your boss did versus what the screenwriter did notwithstanding. The copyright for any work you do as an employee belongs to your employer unless you have specifically contracted otherwise. Also, as Alice said, copyright doesn&#8217;t protect ideas, it protects the &#8220;expression&#8221; of the idea, which resides not in the treatment but in the screenplay and finished film (each of which are copyrightable works). </p>

<p>Another way to look at this: Building a career isn&#8217;t about getting credit for everything you do. It&#8217;s about getting to the place where you can get credit. Sounds like you want to be a writer but you have a day job working for a producer, which gives you a great opportunity to learn about story and the reality of making movies. The work your boss asked you to do (and the extra mile that you went) gave you a chance to hone your skills at a time when you&#8217;re not yet being hired to write. That&#8217;s a great position to be in. Your boss gave you the opportunity to learn and a vote of confidence to boot. By being willing to be of service to her, you may have built a relationship that will serve you later, and at the very least you racked up some good karma points. Sometimes it&#8217;s not about what you get but what you give. You&#8217;ll get yours in due time.</p>

<p>P.S. NYC/carribean ragazza &#8212; Since I need to get back to my own writing, I&#8217;ll say it here rather than going to your site. Congratulations!</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ryan Paige</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2008/credit-for-outline/comment-page-1#comment-160702</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Paige</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 17:40:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnaugust.com/?p=1180#comment-160702</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;(I can barely speak Italian so clearly I cannot write the script)&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I can barely speak English, but that hasn&#039;t stopped me.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;(I can barely speak Italian so clearly I cannot write the script)&#8221;</p>

<p>I can barely speak English, but that hasn&#8217;t stopped me.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: kip</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2008/credit-for-outline/comment-page-1#comment-160701</link>
		<dc:creator>kip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 17:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnaugust.com/?p=1180#comment-160701</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I have to say the commenters here seem to be overly harsh to Marley.  I don&#039;t think he (she?) was intentionally or maliciously trying to steal credit.  He&#039;s probably just young and/or inexperienced, and aspires to be a screenwriter or producer or whatever, and put a lot of work into this outline in the hopes that this would get him noticed.  I certainly don&#039;t think he should be fired over it, he just needs things explained plainly (as John&#039;s post did).  I&#039;m sure if he had actually talked to a lawyer he would have learned the same thing.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to say the commenters here seem to be overly harsh to Marley.  I don&#8217;t think he (she?) was intentionally or maliciously trying to steal credit.  He&#8217;s probably just young and/or inexperienced, and aspires to be a screenwriter or producer or whatever, and put a lot of work into this outline in the hopes that this would get him noticed.  I certainly don&#8217;t think he should be fired over it, he just needs things explained plainly (as John&#8217;s post did).  I&#8217;m sure if he had actually talked to a lawyer he would have learned the same thing.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: nyc/caribbean ragazza</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2008/credit-for-outline/comment-page-1#comment-160681</link>
		<dc:creator>nyc/caribbean ragazza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnaugust.com/?p=1180#comment-160681</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I agree with John.  Marley was doing her job. If Marley had come up with the idea, written the treatment then maybe she would have had a case.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I just sold a treatment to an Italian company.  The company will show the treatment to an Italian screenwriter who will write it (I can barely speak Italian so clearly I cannot write the script).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The idea was my own, I pitched to the company and then my lawyer spoke to them about the details. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If Marley wants to be a writer....she should go and write.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with John.  Marley was doing her job. If Marley had come up with the idea, written the treatment then maybe she would have had a case.</p>

<p>I just sold a treatment to an Italian company.  The company will show the treatment to an Italian screenwriter who will write it (I can barely speak Italian so clearly I cannot write the script).</p>

<p>The idea was my own, I pitched to the company and then my lawyer spoke to them about the details. </p>

<p>If Marley wants to be a writer&#8230;.she should go and write.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Marley</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2008/credit-for-outline/comment-page-1#comment-160678</link>
		<dc:creator>Marley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnaugust.com/?p=1180#comment-160678</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks everyone, good to have this cleared up, I think I&#039;ll spend my spare time on my own scripts in future!&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks everyone, good to have this cleared up, I think I&#8217;ll spend my spare time on my own scripts in future!</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Alice</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2008/credit-for-outline/comment-page-1#comment-160630</link>
		<dc:creator>Alice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 09:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnaugust.com/?p=1180#comment-160630</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I was told at University that &quot;Ideas aren&#039;t copyright unless you write it down&quot;. My interpretation of that means writing down the idea as a treatment/outline/scribbles on backs of envelopes - which then get turned into a proper draft of a screenplay (that&#039;s the bit you can copyright). The back of a envelope/treatment etc... you can keep to add evidence to the case should you have to be able to prove that the idea for the script was yours. Therefore, behind every 120 page script, there&#039;s a full to busting lever-arch folder with paper in it. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;For all you might know your Producer may have done this already at home, thought about it more in detail on the Tube, then called you in to take notes, whilst she pitched. This original idea was your Producer&#039;s (hard as that might be to accept) and she got you to write it down. Producers are the talent when it comes to getting the film financed, keeping check on the figures, getting the production off the ground, they are business people who like the Arts, but aren&#039;t inclined/talented to write the thing themself (exceptions to every rule) - which is where you come in. And the Screenwriter they hire. If I was that screenwriter, I&#039;d want the bare bones to begin with and take out all the &#039;noise&#039;. Like Dave said. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Sadly, Marley, you got far too enthusiastic in your job (we&#039;ve all done that) and added your own stuff, which might have been better kept in your own notebook until you had the time or inclination to put them into a treatment of your own and write the script.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;To conclude, I know you must feel absolutely gutted and rightly naffed (for want of a polite word) off, but take this one as experience and let it go. It&#039;s only a treatment - not a script. 
Next time, just write what the Boss tells you and check the apostrophes are in the right places.
You want your name on something that you&#039;re prepared to spend hours slaving over, write a script of your own. Submit that - you&#039;re already ahead of us unsolicited types that get a 10 page read before being shredded (and that&#039;s if we&#039;re lucky). You have Producers to show your work to in their coffee break. Don&#039;t waste your opportunity. There&#039;s evidently a Writer in you somewhere.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was told at University that &#8220;Ideas aren&#8217;t copyright unless you write it down&#8221;. My interpretation of that means writing down the idea as a treatment/outline/scribbles on backs of envelopes &#8211; which then get turned into a proper draft of a screenplay (that&#8217;s the bit you can copyright). The back of a envelope/treatment etc&#8230; you can keep to add evidence to the case should you have to be able to prove that the idea for the script was yours. Therefore, behind every 120 page script, there&#8217;s a full to busting lever-arch folder with paper in it. </p>

<p>For all you might know your Producer may have done this already at home, thought about it more in detail on the Tube, then called you in to take notes, whilst she pitched. This original idea was your Producer&#8217;s (hard as that might be to accept) and she got you to write it down. Producers are the talent when it comes to getting the film financed, keeping check on the figures, getting the production off the ground, they are business people who like the Arts, but aren&#8217;t inclined/talented to write the thing themself (exceptions to every rule) &#8211; which is where you come in. And the Screenwriter they hire. If I was that screenwriter, I&#8217;d want the bare bones to begin with and take out all the &#8216;noise&#8217;. Like Dave said. </p>

<p>Sadly, Marley, you got far too enthusiastic in your job (we&#8217;ve all done that) and added your own stuff, which might have been better kept in your own notebook until you had the time or inclination to put them into a treatment of your own and write the script.</p>

<p>To conclude, I know you must feel absolutely gutted and rightly naffed (for want of a polite word) off, but take this one as experience and let it go. It&#8217;s only a treatment &#8211; not a script. 
Next time, just write what the Boss tells you and check the apostrophes are in the right places.
You want your name on something that you&#8217;re prepared to spend hours slaving over, write a script of your own. Submit that &#8211; you&#8217;re already ahead of us unsolicited types that get a 10 page read before being shredded (and that&#8217;s if we&#8217;re lucky). You have Producers to show your work to in their coffee break. Don&#8217;t waste your opportunity. There&#8217;s evidently a Writer in you somewhere.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2008/credit-for-outline/comment-page-1#comment-160533</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 23:19:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnaugust.com/?p=1180#comment-160533</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;@Rob:  It&#039;s working for me on NetNewsWire. Which feed reader are you using?&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Rob:  It&#8217;s working for me on NetNewsWire. Which feed reader are you using?</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2008/credit-for-outline/comment-page-1#comment-160522</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 22:36:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnaugust.com/?p=1180#comment-160522</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I get an error when attempting to subscribe to the comment RSS feed:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;XML Parsing Error: XML or text declaration not at start of entity
Location: http://johnaugust.com/archives/2008/credit-for-outline/feed
Line Number 2, Column 1:&lt;rss version=&quot;2.0&quot;&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I get an error when attempting to subscribe to the comment RSS feed:</p>

<p>XML Parsing Error: XML or text declaration not at start of entity
Location: <a href="http://johnaugust.com/archives/2008/credit-for-outline/feed" rel="nofollow">http://johnaugust.com/archives/2008/credit-for-outline/feed</a>
Line Number 2, Column 1:&lt;rss version=&#8221;2.0&#8243;</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2008/credit-for-outline/comment-page-1#comment-160521</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 22:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnaugust.com/?p=1180#comment-160521</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I want to produce and/or direct a feature I have a story idea for. What would be the proper approach to take to hire a screenwriter? How detailed should the treatment be? (I&#039;m guessing five to seven pages.)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;How much input to the story would warrant a &quot;Story By&quot; credit?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Since I&#039;m planning to make this myself as my first feature, it is unlikely to make any money. In addition the screenwriters I know haven&#039;t had anything major produced. With that in mind, what&#039;s a realistic amount to pay such a writer?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Thanks for writing an intriguing blog.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Peace,&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Rob:-]&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to produce and/or direct a feature I have a story idea for. What would be the proper approach to take to hire a screenwriter? How detailed should the treatment be? (I&#8217;m guessing five to seven pages.)</p>

<p>How much input to the story would warrant a &#8220;Story By&#8221; credit?</p>

<p>Since I&#8217;m planning to make this myself as my first feature, it is unlikely to make any money. In addition the screenwriters I know haven&#8217;t had anything major produced. With that in mind, what&#8217;s a realistic amount to pay such a writer?</p>

<p>Thanks for writing an intriguing blog.</p>

<p>Peace,</p>

<p>Rob:-]</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Raoul Duke</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2008/credit-for-outline/comment-page-1#comment-160502</link>
		<dc:creator>Raoul Duke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 20:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnaugust.com/?p=1180#comment-160502</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Some of these details aren&#039;t clarified, like how much of the &quot;story&quot; was dictated to Marley before she went off on her own. If her boss just gave a 5 sentence pitch about the basic story outline, then the subsequent embellishment into a 35-page treatment was done in bulk by Marley herself. This is where I can understand her frustration about not getting credit.  However, unless they had some sort of agreement beforehand, like her boss saying, &quot;Hey, Marley: You seem eager and full of ideas. Why don&#039;t you take a crack at the treatment.&quot; then there isn&#039;t really any credit to be given, other than her boss saying, &quot;Great job, Marley.&quot; &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I really don&#039;t think it comes near the realm of plagarism, though. Sounds like Marley went a step or two above and beyond in the hope that her boss might say, &quot;These are such great ideas, which hadn&#039;t been mined before, that we&#039;re promoting you to producer/screenwriter on this project and a 3-picture deal afterwards...&quot; Instead, there was a pat on the back, the producer&#039;s name slapped on it and it was sent out. The fact that she decided to add her own ideas outside of her boss&#039; instructions isn&#039;t really plagarism, it&#039;s just an empty gesture.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some of these details aren&#8217;t clarified, like how much of the &#8220;story&#8221; was dictated to Marley before she went off on her own. If her boss just gave a 5 sentence pitch about the basic story outline, then the subsequent embellishment into a 35-page treatment was done in bulk by Marley herself. This is where I can understand her frustration about not getting credit.  However, unless they had some sort of agreement beforehand, like her boss saying, &#8220;Hey, Marley: You seem eager and full of ideas. Why don&#8217;t you take a crack at the treatment.&#8221; then there isn&#8217;t really any credit to be given, other than her boss saying, &#8220;Great job, Marley.&#8221; </p>

<p>I really don&#8217;t think it comes near the realm of plagarism, though. Sounds like Marley went a step or two above and beyond in the hope that her boss might say, &#8220;These are such great ideas, which hadn&#8217;t been mined before, that we&#8217;re promoting you to producer/screenwriter on this project and a 3-picture deal afterwards&#8230;&#8221; Instead, there was a pat on the back, the producer&#8217;s name slapped on it and it was sent out. The fact that she decided to add her own ideas outside of her boss&#8217; instructions isn&#8217;t really plagarism, it&#8217;s just an empty gesture.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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