Advice for terrible writers
I looked through your archive and saw that you suggested bad scripts serve a purpose, and after a year of being a reader, I can see why they’re helpful. At the same time, they’re killing me. I feel emotional destruction every time I read another page of these godawful things.
It wouldn’t be so bad if the worst of these didn’t come from my screenwriting class, where I have to critique other’s screenplays. I’m trying so hard to be nice and also give suggestions but it gets harder each time I read the same, unchanged terrible screenplay week after week. How can I emotionally remove myself from the situation? Because it seems too personal right now.
– Kathleen
The reader’s job is frustrating: You’re forced to finish and summarize nearly-unreadable scripts. But at least there’s the veneer of anonymity, since you likely don’t know the writer, and they have no idea you’re writing coverage on their crapterpiece.
In a class situation or writing group, all of that anonymity is stripped away. So you need to find a way to offer constructive criticism while defending your belief in what good writing is. Here are a few suggestions:
Ask questions. Rather than saying, “This character’s choices make no sense,” ask the writer why the character is doing this specific thing at this specific point.
Focus on points of confusion. Be clear and direct, especially if the script isn’t.
Use analogies. It can be painful to talk about terrible writing, so talk about good movies that do the kinds of things you’re talking about.
Quit the class. At a certain point, if all you’re getting out of the class is negative energy, stop going.
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October 26th, 2007 at 7:06 am
Wouldn’t this be “Advice for Those Around Terrible Writers”?
October 26th, 2007 at 8:11 am
Anyone, given the right skill set and intention, should feel comfortable offering feedback on even the worst script. I assume that you’re providing feedback in both written form and face-to-face. A couple suggestions:
Written feedback - Even though a writer from your group is not anonymous, the elements under review - opening, conflict, plot, pacing, setting, characterization etc. - are objective baselines. I find that when I break down a script by each of these components, the comments flow and even if they all point to a need for a page one rewriter, so be it. If a script is so bad, I just have fun offering “what-if” scenarios. The writer is usually in need of some serious creative input at that stage.
Face-to-face feedback - In our screenwriting group, we all go around and in turn summarize what we we liked about the work. Then we do another round and summarize what the screenplay needs. We do this while referring to the author in the third person even though the writer is actually in the room. We don’t even make eye contact with him/her. (Our moderator makes sure we adhere to this). The whole point is that we offer constructive feedback while not making it personal. It works.
But John’s right as well. It’s strange that you’re not seeing an improvement in the quality of the scripts. Sounds like you may have outgrown your colleagues.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:05 am
Interesting post, John, and timely.
Your critique method almost mirrors the techniques my dad uses when dealing with his freshman English classes. Unfortunately, I learned this after giving a blistering review that was honest, but presented in not-the most-positive way.
It bears remembering that criticism should be served up in a way that is appetizing, especially if it’s gonna be hard to swallow.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:07 am
This may be obvious, but if you’re in a screenwriting group with some bad scripts, listen to what the other members are saying. If a script is terrible, but everyone else in the class or group sugar coats everything and/or pretends the script is brilliant, you should probably quit. You’re not going to get honest and helpful feedback on your own work in that kind of setting. Find a more helpful group with people who are willing to be honest, and as a writer, learn to take honest feedback even when the other writers don’t love your script yet. To me the worst part of a screenwriting group is when the writer gets all defensive and starts making excuses.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:15 am
I’m a master at suggestion #4.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:24 am
As for those scripts that never seem to improve, I think a lot of people don’t really want honest feedback - they want praise. If a classmate is clearly not interested in honing their craft, don’t bother with constructive feedback. Just say “That was terrific. I can’t think of any way you could make it better.”
If you are going to experience any anguish, save it for those that want to be better writers.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:43 am
If you have any faith at all in the capacity of your classmates to digest feedback (or if you’re too early in your class to fairly judge), then your goal is to be clear, honest, and concise in your feedback - which is essentially what you should be doing in all your writing, either way.
If you don’t have that faith, as has been repeatedly said, leave. There are a million classes you can find - spent time, however, you’ll never get back.
October 26th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
Sounds like it’s time to stop worrying about these other writers (unless your goal is to teach writing) and start focusing on what you need in order to grow and develop as a writer. It sounds like it isn’t this class. And since it seems like you already know everything you need to know about the elements of good writing, I’d suggest that it isn’t any class.
I saw David Benioff speak the other night and he was talking about the rejection letters he got for his second novel. They all had a common throughline, which is that the writing was very good but the plot just wasn’t holding up. And he had an MFA in writing from UC Irvine, one of the top writing programs in the country. Which just goes to show you that, beyond a certain point (teaching the basics), writing cannot really be taught. It can, however, be learned - by doing it (the more you do it the better you get, sort of like training for a sport); and by reading failed scripts, but ideally these should be scripts that made it to the screen. Many flawed screenplays (often by exceptional writers) make it to the screen and you can learn a lot from these scripts about how a story with potential can fail. It will also teach you a lot about taking risks. I love Charlie Kaufmann’s work, for example, but not all of it, and yet, I see evidence of the work I love in even those scripts that seem to miss the mark. The same is true of Eric Roth, another favorite of mine. Both of these men have taught me that we are always learning, no matter how accomplished we may be.
October 26th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
My advice: be selfish. If we’re lucky baby writers we’ll get assignments. Mostly to rewrite bad scripts. So bad they can’t afford or attract the interest of anyone better. Here’s your first opportunity! Rewrite it, if only in your head, and pitch them a better version. Give it your all and convince terrible writer that they want to write your version of their terrible idea. Sell it to the whole room. That’s the most self serving option presented to you. If you can rewrite the worst of the worst and sell it…the sky’s the limit.
October 26th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
Great and timely post John. The big problem I see is that writers act like this is a high-paying hobby ( I don’t think there’s any such thing). This is a JOB. A very difficult job that Dr. Seger describes as part poet, part psychologist, part philosopher. All of thos jobs have one thig in common. Most people who succeed, STUDY STUDY STUDY. UNTIL THEIR EARS BLEED AND THEY BLITHER LIKE IDIOTS.
Readers have my utmost sympathy as I’ve read many an amateur screenplay - and lived to regret it. Some of you pro writers may get sick of me as I’ll read every bit of advice you give and comment - not to show off but so that I learn more everyday.
I HATE the fact that there are 1000s of “wannabe’s” like me - well not really like me - running around with scripts and very few on boards like this, where you can get it form the horse’s mouth so to speak.
It’s like Google doesn’t exist for screenwriters. Even consultants with websites and blogs don’t get their own customers commenting. I guess they don’t know that writers are like wine from Ernest and Julio Gallo: don’t pitch yourself before you’re done — learning.
Of course, learning never ends but you’ll know. Its when you’d rather read tips, advice and write your own tips, advice than write screenplays. That may seem crazy since you want to sell screenplays but as I have found most writers make money on assignments and NOT spec sales.
Maybe no execs will ever see my blog or my presence on blogs like this but at I can direct them there or here - or the 20 other sites I commonly visit (read:everyday).
Wow, I’m not even sure if I got off-topic but I do understand why getting reads is so hard and getting good coverage is even harder. Readers come to learn to expect the worst and any thing that stands out as “not quite right” becomes a reason to scan rather than read.
October 26th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
BTW, I loved your talk at Fade In last weekend. Try to come back in February.
October 26th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
So glad I checked in today on this site. As a complete non-comodity myself this topic always amazes me. If your a writer and I’m a writer I respect you. Enough, in fact to tell you exactly why I don’t like/understand something. I expect and CRAVE the same from you. The final judgement of what I do with the suggestion is mine but I want them all just the same. This business is a vast ocean of almost, could have, should have’s. I have a million things to learn and my work will not grow with praise, only with criticism. If I didn’t want that knoweldge and/or cannot stomach the abuse then yeah, you should not be trying to write. It is by it’s nature an excersise in self-doubt and smashing through it.
I agree with you Paula in that you cannot teach writing. I know I’m a writer, what I am still learning painful step by painful step however is craft. Without all you big meanies out there to fearlessly point it out to me how would I ever do it?
October 26th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
I’ve belonged to a few writer groups now and have become disheartened at how little effective criticism is given. And there are two reasons as I see it:
1) Lack of craft. As was mentioned above, structure, characterization, exposition, page design and flow, and other measureable skills aren’t addressed because they aren’t practiced all that well by many up-and-coming writers.
2) Lack of taste. No matter what the field, discernment is the rarest commodity around. A few have it, most don’t and thus it will always be. Problem is, those with it know they have it, and those without it know they have it too.
We can all improve #1, but I think we are what we are on #2. So the trick perhaps is to find a group that can really help you improve #1, and the work that comes out of that will be evidence of #2.
October 26th, 2007 at 7:29 pm
Kathleen,
I agree with John on only one point: Leave the class.
Or if you’re like me, put up a wall of ego, state your righteousness, and tell them they suck.
And, if you’re lucky, one might hate you enough to prove you wrong.
(P.S. This tact may leave you friendless, but at least your reading will improve)
October 26th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
where can one view horrible screenplays on the internet?
October 27th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Kathleen
You’ve found your level and your living it!
Boo, hoo, hoo!!!
The real question is this.. Are all the screenplays bad or are you unable to spot a good one? I mean that it the question.
The real job of a reader is to read the first 10 pages and its shite then dump it. That gets rid of the 99%, right?
And you get paid for this job, a good job! Or would you prefer to be a refuse collector or worse still, on the unemployment line?
Read it and weep, baby!
Readers, fvck it, I eat ‘em for breakfast!
October 27th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
A few years back, I entered a script in the Project Green Light reality program. In order for your script to qualify, you were asked to read ten other submitted screenplays and leave comments on each. Since I had a film in the running as well - I had to read an additional ten. (it may have been six but it feels like ten)
I nearly lost my mind.
Also, I had an agent who asked me to read a horror script from another writer he repped. He said that her script was good but wasn’t doing well when submitted - for some odd reason. I read the thing and my eyes turned to pinwheels. How could someone who reps me also rep this? I had pages of notes. I met with the writer for coffee and she dismissed every single note. She was defensive, angry and looked at me like the enemy. I was diplomatic, fair and honest. She wanted to throw her coffee in my face and leave me with the check. After ten minutes of this - I folded my notes and just let her tell me what it was she intended with the piece. I discovered that she had a much better story in her head than she had on the page. She insisted all of it was in the script when nearly none of it was.
I encouraged her to do a rewrite and tell the story she had intended - and to not submit the current draft to anyone outside of her living room. I also left the agency as quietly and as quickly as I could.
October 27th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
Richard,
She won’t learn, mate. Diplomacy is for politicians. Artists need to be righteous. The horror script lady out righteoused you. Yes she had a hot coffee, but sometimes the truth hurts.
And BTW, they will never, ever verbally agree with you. No matter which way you say it, gentle or sharp, with a spoon or a knife, you’re tearing their heart out. So make the cut quick and deep and be done with it.
October 27th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Here’s an example of using the knife although in a slightly altered context:
http://johnaugust.com/archives/2007/she-was-mistaken
October 28th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
“I’m trying so hard to be nice and also give suggestions but it gets harder each time I read the same, unchanged terrible screenplay week after week. How can I emotionally remove myself from the situation? Because it seems too personal right now.”
John’s advice is spot on as usual, but I would add #5: get over yourself. Not necessarily in the pejorative you’re an egomaniac way, though you may be, but to realize that they’re not your stories and people have the right to be wrong. I don’t look at as my job to fix what’s wrong, but rather to offer my opinions, which are just my opinions after all, which the writers are free to do with as they like. “It’s not my movie” has gotten me through a lot of otherwise tough situations, never as an excuse to slack off or not do my best, but to realize that certain things I have no control over and shouldn’t worry about. If you look at it objectively, why should you care whether someone in your class uses your notes or not?
October 29th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
Joe,
There’s no site for horrible screenplays (thank God, because if they’re truly “horrible” you won’t learn much, which is what our reader has found). But…you can go to any of the script sites (drew’s script-o-rama, script pimp, and the internet movie database comes to mind) and just read the scripts for films you thought didn’t work (these scripts may fail, but they’ll also have something about them that works and you can learn a lot by analyzing where it went right and where it went wrong and why. You should also read scripts for films you think do work and see if you can figure out why.
Btw, I agree with Grant. You’re taking something personally that actually has nothing to do with you. That’s probably because you want to hang onto the security blanket of a class when maybe it’s time to enter that nether region, after you’ve left the amateurs behind and before you’ve entered the ranks of the pros. It’s a scary hinterland, but no one gets to greatness in a pack. You always have to go it alone to some degree.
October 29th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
Oops, I wasn’t clear in my above post. My btw wasn’t for you, Joe, but for the original writer/reader who wrote in to John for advice.
October 29th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
Hey, johnaugust.com readers, pay attention to what commenter Paula has to say. She’s the real deal. All very good, accurate, informed, pro advice.
November 5th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
I think point 2 “focus on points of confusion” is a really good tactic to use. It’s a constructive way to criticize a script. “I don’t understand what’s going on here,” is a good opener. Let them explain what the story is about - and then offer ways to communicate that in their script. They may not like your ideas but maybe they’ll come up with better ones of their own.
I read for a short screenplay contest. The most common problem was story. What’s the story about and why do I care? Story is tough to fix because that’s what is closest to the writer’s heart. I think writing can be taught, in terms of style and format, but the ability to tell a good story is something that is more innate.
November 24th, 2007 at 10:37 am
“In a class situation or writing group, all of that anonymity is stripped away. So you need to find a way to offer constructive criticism while defending your belief in what good writing is.”
I was attending a sitcom writers’ group. Social interaction isn’t my favourite thing, the group was located above a pub and usually I was two or three pints of beer ahead of everyone else by the time we’d finished reading the night’s script.
Come the time for the group to give feedback, I thought I was being very amusing when I said “it reads like it was put into Google Translate, turned into Spanish, and then translated back to English again.”
Horrible silence. On the plus side, no punch in the mouth.
But I feel terrible for saying that. It was a horrible thing to say. I still cringe thinking about it.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
I think Grant is right on. People have to hit rock bottom before they want to actually help themselves. If they are putting no effort into their script or writing skills, then you don’t have to.
Usually what I do is give forth the same amount of effort I receive. If someone in my workshop writes a page of constructive critcism on my script, I do the same for them. If I get pages back with “I liked it” or the same “Cool scene!” notes over and over then that’s all that writer will get from me.
It’s not your movie. Be glad that you already know you’re ahead of everyone. Just don’t be snobby about it.
-Brendan