Read lots of bad scripts
Screenwriter/blogger Bryan ‘Locke’ Naegele speaks the truth: it’s just as important to read bad writing as good.
The first reason to read bad scripts is to constantly expose yourself to what doesn’t work. Don’t learn from your own mistakes, learn from others. That’s my motto. That way yours are much more manageable because they’re fewer. You become hyper-aware of flat characters, shotty dialogue, predictability, clichés, etc.
I assume “shotty” is a cross between “shoddy” and “shitty.” I like it.
I worked as an intern-slash-reader at a little Paramount production company during my first semester of graduate school, and the contrast between the crappy scripts I read there and the great scripts I read for class was really illuminating. And encouraging on some level. I knew I could never write as well as Lawrence Kasdan, but I could easily write better than the schmucks I had to write coverage on.
So, take Bryan at his word. You can see the rest of his advice here.
Does bad work spoil mine?
Getting a reader job
Articles
June 14th, 2005 at 9:29 am
you know, i went to a conservatory of music. same thing applies. you listen to the students play in recital and it gives you perspective on great playing - especially what students do that doesn’t work.
if you listen to only the great recordings, you’re not really learning. when you hear a poor student play, you learn tons - it can be inspirational
bad writing, though. i just can’t read the junk. maybe it’s because i’m a little older. besides, i read enough of my own stuff - and that’s pretty bad. i have to work very hard to bring it up to the level it should be at. but, i can recommend reading crap - i’ve done it, but only for a few pages. how many pages of horrid dialogue (or narrative, whatever) do you have to read?
when i first started i read several scripts by wannabes. this was on those peer-review sites. that writing was miserable. criminally bad. there are not words. there’s one thing i can say for sure this experience taught me: i’m better that those guys.
really, there isn’t that much competition out there. there’s gobs of wannabes who couldn’t write their way out of a paper bag - but who wants to compete against them? reading the work of lazy writers can point one in the right direction
June 14th, 2005 at 11:45 am
Why is John August posting advice from a non-pro screenwriter? Is it fair, now, to ask: is blogging getting out of hand? I am not a doctor. What if I created a site dedicated to the dispensation of medical advice? Should practicing doctors link to my site, even if I happened to post something that made actual medical sense? What makes an expert these days? Facility with html or whatever you call it that allows people to build sites on the internets? I’m not necessarily saying this is a bad thing. Maybe the global community of man does benefit. Maybe I should heed the word of Bryan ‘Locke’ (?) Naegele. Maybe I will cure herpes.
June 14th, 2005 at 12:30 pm
@alan, I also attended a music conservatory, and I would disagree with you somewhat. I never found bad recitals very helpful to endure. I got much more out of listening to good performances (of good music) and out of teaching (I believe you never learn more than you do when you are teaching someone else). I have no notion of how this applies to screenwriting (not something I’ve never actually done), but I have noticed some similar value in looking at poorly-written newswriting — it’s harder to say what’s “good” about a good article, but very easy to point out what is wrong with a bad article. All the same, I am more inspired by great works of art/craft than by bad.
June 14th, 2005 at 1:08 pm
False analogy, “Anonymous”. You are comparing a medical doctor to a screenwriter.
An MD must undertake a formal course of study and be licensed to practice. Inappropriate medical advice might kill someone. The stakes are quite high.
A screenwriter needs no formal qualifications or license to practice and learns by doing exactly the kind of thing that Brian is doing. Hard to see how misguided screenwriting advice could do any serious physical harm.
June 14th, 2005 at 1:29 pm
The analogy was meant to be tounge-in-cheek, illustrative in its absurdity. You know, ironic. Any comment on my point about the proliferation of experts? About the growing propensity for people to feel their private struggles/experiences are worthy of sharing with the wider world? Why do YOU do it, for example? Is it that we live in a memoirist society? A reality TV world? I’m not condemning it. It just confounds me a little. No offense to Bryan.
June 14th, 2005 at 2:04 pm
Reading “Bad” scripts is very good advice. I would say the same for watching bad movies, for the wannabe writer/directors out there.’
Also, try reading good scripts that got turned into bad movies. Or movies that just didn’t work. Some recent examples are: The United States Of Leland, Moonlight Mile, Human Nature…
June 14th, 2005 at 4:03 pm
@ Anonymous - I don’t claim to be a professional and I note that directly on my site. I also don’t claim myself to be a writer of John’s caliber, I will not be speaking at Austin nor am I Queen of Sheba. I have, however, been learning about screenwriting and putting that knowledge to use for quite some time.
If you want my qualifications I’ll be happy to give them. I’ve been writing for 8 years now as a “hobby” - meaning I had to work 50+ hours a week in addition to juggling relationships, friends, school, etc. - until this March when I was finally able to leave my job to persue this full-time. I have numerous scripts under my belt and three I’m currently working on. I have not attempted to secure representation because I feel I have many improvements to make and I want a stack of saleable scripts ready to go when I finally do - uh oh, I just gave another piece of advice from the pros; don’t shop anything until it’s ready and have a stack of other specs in hand. I’ve also done a wee bit of reading on the job and gone to places like Austin to listen and ask for advice of guys like John first hand.
In short, I think I can safely say I’ve got a rung or two on the “wannabe” crowd.
Now, whether you take my advice or not is entirely up to you but consider where that advice is coming from. Note how I started the post off:
“This is the single greatest piece of advice you’ll ever hear from the pros.”
This is the advice of numerous pros, from their lips to my ears - literally. If you attend a panel of pros you’re likely to hear the same. I have done as they advised and found it to be extremely helpful so now I pass that advice on. Perhaps you should consider the fact that John had the impetus to put it on his own site to be some sort of validation of it. Perhaps he’s given this advice before. Maybe he’s even given it during a panel discussion at Austin which I happened to be in attendance at.
You’re right to be skeptical about screenwriting advice, I am. Should you wait with baited breath on every post I write? Absolutely not. You don’t have to read my site or David’s. You can stick to just the pros and gloss over any mention they happen to make of us and our regurgitated advice. If you think we’re pathetic, OK. If you find it interesting to follow the progress of several screenwriters trying their best to go pro, OK.
Personally, I don’t know why you take such liberties in your attack against non-pro screenwriters. I don’t see anybody claiming to be an expert. Screenwriting is an apprenticeship trade. Those higher than others hand down whatever they can to the lower rungs. I take the time to share my experiences for two reasons: to show those lower than me (aspiring/hobbyists) the commitment it takes to succeed and to show those above me (like John) that their efforts to hand down their knowledge and experience are worthwhile.
@ John - diatribes against blogging aside, thanks for the validation of your own advice. If I’m not mistaken you were one of several that gave this piece of advice at Austin last year.
And yes, shotty is indeed a mix of shoddy and shitty. I don’t know where I got it from but I imagine it has something to do with my propensity for cursing and trying to use the proper word. I just know I like to use it when something is shitty but don’t want to say that outright. Hence, shotty.
June 14th, 2005 at 5:08 pm
Oh, feel free to skip the “Locke” part. That’s just for the Badge of Blood readers to know which developer they’re reading.
June 14th, 2005 at 5:11 pm
Anonymous said, “The analogy was meant to be tongue-in-cheek…Any comment on my point about the proliferation of experts?”
Since you made your point by analogy and it was, at best, tongue-in-cheek, you don’t have a point.
So no, no comment.
Also, “Why do YOU do it, for example?”
There is no need for me to explain or defend what I do.
I’m sorry to hear you are confounded. I hope things become clearer to you soon.
June 14th, 2005 at 6:09 pm
Bryan, but still. My question is why? What drives one to do this? You do it, so you can answer me. And please, something less specious than you want to ’share’ with those ‘below’ and ’show’ to those ‘above’. (I won’t even go into the above and below thing, or wannabes, or ladder rungs.) It seems like a lot of effort, and I wonder what motivates you to do it. I am genuinely curious about the presumption (because it is one) inherent in the effort you’re making. I don’t get it. I don’t think anyone’s pathetic. I just want to know what’s going on with the kids these days. When I was struggling, working in a law office, I didn’t even tell people I was a writer. It made me feel icky, especially living in Los Angeles. I know Lawrence Kasdan felt the same. I would never boast that I’ve written stacks of unpurchased/unproduced scripts, or that I’ve been at it for eight years and don’t have an agent. To me, that’s all saying: maybe it’s time to start thinking of myself as something other than a screenwriter. So I, quite literally, don’t understand why you do what you do. It seems like a more honest answer to my question would be: I am a technology geek; or, I want to make this or that name for myself; or, I am looking for validation of myself as a writer. Maybe I’m being cynical. Maybe the egalitarian promise of the internet to join us all, to shrink the world, has come true. If so, I’m happy to have played a part in pinpointing the very moment in time when it all turned beautiful.
June 14th, 2005 at 6:51 pm
Anonymous:
I don’t know why I’m so bored as to why I want to get in to this, but arguing about a man’s character just seems futile. Would you argue with John about why he enjoys Hybrid cars so much? And why he links to the Prius on his website? Surely, he is no Toyota mechanic, and cannot vouch for their dependability…
Or how about one of your characters, and some flaw you might feel they have… Didn’t you, indeed, invent that flaw to make them more human? And now you’re upset at Bryan for being too human? For simply, talking about his interests…?
June 14th, 2005 at 7:40 pm
You’re right, Hansel. It is boring. I didn’t intend to be arguing with anyone about their character. I’m just trying to understand what is behind a phenomenon that seems to be expanding unabated (ie, blogging by all and everyone). My tone was too snotty to spur any real discussion. I apologize.
June 14th, 2005 at 7:44 pm
I truthfully can’t find the difference between Bryan having a blog about screenwriting and a chemistry professor who is not a medical doctor helping a student prepare to become a doctor. He may not have actual experience in the field, yet he’s studied the material and knows how to present it to others.
In some ways, I think giving out screenwriting advice without being a pro is beneficial to others. With the exception of John (and it’s not just sucking up), most screenwriters online tend to be pretentious and tend to try to kill dreams very quickly. I understand it’s the nature of the business and I respect that, but I think someone asking about getting an agent and being told to go to hell is pretty harsh and yes, I’ve seen that before. Someone like Bryan, who obviously has studied the trade, can offer tips about simply writing without sending out stories about failure and how often it comes.
Of course, I’ve only read Bryan’s site once and that wasn’t in-depth because I was in a hurry. I still feel my comparison to a professor is an apt one in this situation, however.
June 14th, 2005 at 8:47 pm
Hi John,
I read a tip that another way of improving your own screenplays is to write out movies and tv-shows you see, as an screenplay and then compare it with the original screenplay of what you watched and examine the differences.
Do you perhaps have a say on that?
Greetings,
Martin G
June 14th, 2005 at 11:10 pm
This is my last response to you here ‘Anonymous’ because this hijacking is disrespectful. If this is something you want to discuss then you could submit your questions to myself or David on our sites. If you want to discuss it further with me I’ll be happy to oblige but you’ll have to stop hiding behind the anonymity and offer up a name. Otherwise, write a letter to the editor, keep it to yourself or discuss the message at hand rather than the messenger.
I’ve even started a post just for you. So come on by.
John, feel free to delete this and all the other off-topic comments. Hopefully the discussion can get back on topic because I think it’s an interesting one.
Go internet!
June 15th, 2005 at 12:36 am
As another neophyte screenwriting blogger, I’ll comment on Anonymous’ question here, and on the details of Bryan’s post over at his site.
Why did I recently start a screenwriting blog, when I am not a professional screenwriter (though I am a professional script reader with over a decade’s film biz experience)? A few reasons. 1st, I hope that those who follow me, those developing screenwriters who are at earlier stages in their careers and writing development, will find my experiences illustrative, educational, and helpful. Also, since I’ve also been writing for a screenwriting magazine for a while now, and am also beginning to teach classes and seminars in this field, this is another way for me to develop, and express, some of the points I’ve been thinking about.
Hope that helps, and you all are invited to read my blog as well!
(sorry for the shameless plug)
June 15th, 2005 at 5:47 am
I thank you for all the advise and discussion. I can see the merits for waiting to get representation until you have a few good scripts under your belt, but I live in part of the country where there is no access to writing groups, or any other outlet to know whether my work is marketable or polished enough. I have worked all the usual avenues of friends and family and gotten their feedback, but they are not professionals, nor do they want to be. What other outlets are possibly out there for this kind of feedback if one is supposed to wait till they have a few scripts under their belt?
June 15th, 2005 at 9:04 am
Michael — there are many paid services that will give you professional feedback on your scripts. The quality of service/feedback and price ranges wildly, but search around, or ask around, and you’ll find many. (Disclosure: I do this, but there are many others out there who do as well. See what’s out there.)
June 15th, 2005 at 9:15 am
Many years ago someone said this to me about learning from the failures of others:
There are an infinite number of ways to fail, but only a finite number of ways to succeed.
For this, and many other reasons, such as the fact that it makes my head hurt, I stay away from bad writing … when possible.
June 15th, 2005 at 9:57 am
Michael,
Michael,
If you don’t have money for a paid consulting service you can always post your script on triggerstreet and have it reviewed there or join a screenwriting email group at Yahoo groups. I’m sure if you make friends on there, someone would be willing to exchange scripts with you where you critique theirs and they critique yours. While these will be amateurs, they will at least have written a script so they can offer more constructive feedback then family and friends might be able to. Just be sure to copyright and register your scripts before you show them to anyone.
June 16th, 2005 at 9:49 am
A tangental point perhaps.
I started a blog as a way to document the progress of my scriptwriting and art directing career.
The topic started out by saying read bad scripts to know what NOT to do. Well, I write and publish on a blog because any writing is still writing. Isn’t that what writer’s do?
They write.
Whether it’s a novel, creative brief, script, blog, whatever. IMO, blogs are another outlet to help you work out issues and thoughts in your writing.
I’ve toiled for years as an AD and wrote along the way, but not seriously enough until this year when I started my script. Blogs like those mentioned here and elsewhere have been invaluable to my development, not to mention the usual books and writing courses.
The blog is as much for myself as it is others to share. I won’t even pretend to be in the same league as these guys, but hey, if someone starting out connects with something I said, cool. If not, no big deal.
And isn’t a benefit of the web the fact that there’s room for all voices to be heard?
June 16th, 2005 at 9:52 am
Robert P.,
The adage you cite makes great sense, but not for screenwriting. There are not an infinite number of ways you can screw up a screenplay. In fact, there are only a few:
Bad premise, bad structure, bad dialogue, bad character rendering, bad mechanics, and incorrect formatting.
That pretty much covers it. Definitions of ‘bad’ will vary from person to person, but as a working screenwriter in Hollywood, you need to be able to identify the bad components of a script and improve them.
Identifying a script’s problems can be difficult as they’re often matters of subtext and theme. You need to be able to dig into the guts of the material, find the problems, and make your repairs. This sort of ‘digging’ is a skill you can only hone by reading thousands of screenplays, and observing problematic material first hand.
Hope this changes your mind.
June 16th, 2005 at 9:54 am
Sorry, I see your name is ‘Robot Porter’, not ‘Robert’.
Ben
June 16th, 2005 at 11:29 pm
I’m a screenwriter…but I’m lazy and don’t write that often. Creating a blog is means to teach myself to fix this problem. If you blog the start of your script from idea to page 120. It is a daily reminder to sit your ass down and write every day, plus it feels good to vent your frustrations etc. Doesn’t really matter if anyone reads it…it just the fact that your WRITING.
Bry
June 22nd, 2005 at 7:16 pm
Michael,
Any of the usual celluloid subjects offer online screenwriting courses: UCLA, USC, NYU, AFI, Columbia, New School, Austin, Florida
The reads provided by these classmates and professors are preferable to any of your friends and family.
Take luck and keep typing
June 22nd, 2005 at 7:27 pm
Whoops, meant “suspects”
Internet classes can be great; just have to give it a shot. Geography doesn’t have to be a hindrance to networking and learning.
October 3rd, 2005 at 5:19 am
Wow, interesting debate. Thanks guys.
Have read upwards of 30-40 scripts in the last year, and… a lot of them had flaws. Some big flaws, some small ones, some similar flaws, some different, some obvious, some which needed time to understand.
And there was probably less than a handful of really good scripts, only 2-3 I could imagine anybody wanting to produce, and only one that I’d sink my own money into.
All good experience. Except now I don’t even want to show anybody a script with any of the generalised flaws I’m aware of, and have pointed out in other people’s scripts.
So should have pushed my standards up??
November 28th, 2006 at 3:19 pm
Hello Fellow Screenwriters (whichever “rung” you happen to find yourself standing on.) This is a great forum for sharing ideas/questions/thoughts so I thought I’d just add a few comments in case it helps to get another viewpoint. I’ve been writing for four years now, have won three major screenwriting competitions and completed several scripts…so maybe I’m somewhere in the middle of the ladder leding to professional screenwriting. I feel it’s beneficial to wait before pursuing representation, because you only get better with each script you write. There may not be a lot of competition, but there is enough of a roadblock on your path to an agent/sale, etc. that it’s improtant to get some experience with writing behind you. “First script wonders” are few and far between, although my first script won an award and is in negotiations right now for purchase, but not until several rewrites later. Also, working on your writing without worrying about the financial side of life because you are working in a paying job has its benefits. Anyway, on reading bad scripts — there is only so much time in one’s life to read scripts, so I try to read only good scripts, with a bad one thrown in every now and again for good measure. Soon people will be asking you to read their scripts, so finding “not so good” ones is not hard. I personally feel that it’s more beneficial to read good scripts to learn about good writing — I save the bad scripts for when I feel I might be able to offer good advice to a beginning writer. Third comment — and this was told to me by a veteran producer — be VERY careful who you take advice from. There are lots of people out there who claim to know what good writing is and that tell you they can help you with yours….save your precious screenwriting gems for those whose opinions you truly value. Someone who praises your script to the heavens may be good for the ego but not good for improving writing. And those that trash your work aren’t really good for your ego and probably don’t have anything constructive to tell you in the first place. That having been said, best of luck to all fellow writers….and remember, “seat of pants to seat of chair” writing scripts and not just blogging.