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	<title>Comments on: English is not Latin</title>
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	<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2005/english-is-not-latin</link>
	<description>A ton of useful information about screenwriting.</description>
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		<title>By: derek</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2005/english-is-not-latin/comment-page-1#comment-17927</link>
		<dc:creator>derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 05:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=444#comment-17927</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I was responding to comment 28.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was responding to comment 28.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: derek</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2005/english-is-not-latin/comment-page-1#comment-17925</link>
		<dc:creator>derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 05:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=444#comment-17925</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;&lt;&lt;i&gt;
  &lt;blockquote&gt;
    &lt;p&gt;&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;/blockquote&gt;


&lt;p&gt;Agreed. Thanks for validating my headaches when I hear this.  I think it stings more because it&#039;s the prime example of the hypercorrective junk that educated (in something other than English) people - like my engineering crowd - fall into.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&lt;&lt;<i>
  <blockquote>
    <p>&gt;</p>
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<p>Agreed. Thanks for validating my headaches when I hear this.  I think it stings more because it&#8217;s the prime example of the hypercorrective junk that educated (in something other than English) people &#8211; like my engineering crowd &#8211; fall into.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Spencer</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2005/english-is-not-latin/comment-page-1#comment-9445</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=444#comment-9445</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Gotta agree with Jonathan here. Though English started importing everything it could lay its hands on from any language passing, it is NOT based on Latin. Listen to a native speaker of Dutch and you&#039;ll hear a mind-boggling correspondence in phraseology and root words.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Apart from the fact that language does indeed continually evolve, there is sometimes a need to hang on to the bits that work really well and not just throw them in the bin due to a passing fad (like the mangling of written English by &quot;text-speak&quot; using mobile phone messaging). As another writer mentions, abusing grammar for artistic purposes is fine, buggering it up due to ignorance is vile.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Oh, I&#039;m also in complete agreement with the US spelling of &quot;aluminum&quot;, and I apologise profusely for some of our more arcane spelling and pronunciation here in the UK... ;-)&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gotta agree with Jonathan here. Though English started importing everything it could lay its hands on from any language passing, it is NOT based on Latin. Listen to a native speaker of Dutch and you&#8217;ll hear a mind-boggling correspondence in phraseology and root words.</p>

<p>Apart from the fact that language does indeed continually evolve, there is sometimes a need to hang on to the bits that work really well and not just throw them in the bin due to a passing fad (like the mangling of written English by &#8220;text-speak&#8221; using mobile phone messaging). As another writer mentions, abusing grammar for artistic purposes is fine, buggering it up due to ignorance is vile.</p>

<p>Oh, I&#8217;m also in complete agreement with the US spelling of &#8220;aluminum&#8221;, and I apologise profusely for some of our more arcane spelling and pronunciation here in the UK&#8230; ;-)</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: johnaugust.com &#187; Gone fishin&#8217;</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2005/english-is-not-latin/comment-page-1#comment-9352</link>
		<dc:creator>johnaugust.com &#187; Gone fishin&#8217;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 May 2006 17:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=444#comment-9352</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;[...] Since I haven&#8217;t posted for more than a week, several readers have written in to make sure I hadn&#8217;t gotten trapped in an air vent, or shanked by a pencil-wielding grammar prescriptivist. [...]&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Since I haven&#8217;t posted for more than a week, several readers have written in to make sure I hadn&#8217;t gotten trapped in an air vent, or shanked by a pencil-wielding grammar prescriptivist. [...]</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: foreign agent</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2005/english-is-not-latin/comment-page-1#comment-7712</link>
		<dc:creator>foreign agent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Apr 2006 22:17:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=444#comment-7712</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I was taught in highschool that Latin would have been the modern day lingua franca, were it not for a bunch of 17th century grammar nazis; apparently the tauntings against the lesser Latinists were so brutal that whatever life there was left in the lingo was squeezed out well and good. The result today is &quot;nuntii latinii&quot; from the Finnish Broadcast Service and a Finnish Elvis impersonator who sings in Latin - goes to prove the tongue dead, dead, dead.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Another thing is the sheer weight of the reast of the world upon you English grammarians. I bet there could well be more of us non-native speakers (or users?) than there is of you natives - though that would depend on what exactly one is willing to consider English usage. &#039;neways, it&#039;s a losing battle, obivously. You shall all be ate up, and 500 years from now we&#039;ll all speak Mandarin Chinese. (A Marvel of the Modern Medicine if there ever was one.)&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was taught in highschool that Latin would have been the modern day lingua franca, were it not for a bunch of 17th century grammar nazis; apparently the tauntings against the lesser Latinists were so brutal that whatever life there was left in the lingo was squeezed out well and good. The result today is &#8220;nuntii latinii&#8221; from the Finnish Broadcast Service and a Finnish Elvis impersonator who sings in Latin &#8211; goes to prove the tongue dead, dead, dead.</p>

<p>Another thing is the sheer weight of the reast of the world upon you English grammarians. I bet there could well be more of us non-native speakers (or users?) than there is of you natives &#8211; though that would depend on what exactly one is willing to consider English usage. &#8216;neways, it&#8217;s a losing battle, obivously. You shall all be ate up, and 500 years from now we&#8217;ll all speak Mandarin Chinese. (A Marvel of the Modern Medicine if there ever was one.)</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: johnaugust.com &#187; Of course grammar matters</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2005/english-is-not-latin/comment-page-1#comment-7528</link>
		<dc:creator>johnaugust.com &#187; Of course grammar matters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=444#comment-7528</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;[...] Bear in mind: as grammarians go, I&#8217;m pretty lenient. English is not Latin, and many of the so-called mistakes are really just the opinions of stubborn jerks. [...]&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Bear in mind: as grammarians go, I&#8217;m pretty lenient. English is not Latin, and many of the so-called mistakes are really just the opinions of stubborn jerks. [...]</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2005/english-is-not-latin/comment-page-1#comment-2454</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2005 03:45:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=444#comment-2454</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m probably crazy, but I am one of those &quot;grammar Nazis.&quot;  Certain modern usages just grate on my last nerve.  The worst:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;How are you?&quot;/&quot;Fine, and yourself?&quot;&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m probably crazy, but I am one of those &#8220;grammar Nazis.&#8221;  Certain modern usages just grate on my last nerve.  The worst:</p>

<p>&#8220;How are you?&#8221;/&#8221;Fine, and yourself?&#8221;</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2005/english-is-not-latin/comment-page-1#comment-2450</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:58:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=444#comment-2450</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;English does not come from Latin. Any grammarian who attempts to build their case around that fact is a very bad grammarian indeed and perhaps should take a class in linguistics.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;English is a Germanic language, as anyone who has ever read Beowulf in the original Old English should know (Ã¾Ã¦t wÃ¦s god cyning!).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Middle English introduces some Latin influence, but only through Norman French (Me thynketh it acordaunt to resoun / To telle yow al the condicioun).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;English has no direct grammtical route to Latin, and in no way should need to resemble it.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Sorry. The things you learn in college...&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>English does not come from Latin. Any grammarian who attempts to build their case around that fact is a very bad grammarian indeed and perhaps should take a class in linguistics.</p>

<p>English is a Germanic language, as anyone who has ever read Beowulf in the original Old English should know (Ã¾Ã¦t wÃ¦s god cyning!).</p>

<p>Middle English introduces some Latin influence, but only through Norman French (Me thynketh it acordaunt to resoun / To telle yow al the condicioun).</p>

<p>English has no direct grammtical route to Latin, and in no way should need to resemble it.</p>

<p>Sorry. The things you learn in college&#8230;</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jette</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2005/english-is-not-latin/comment-page-1#comment-2075</link>
		<dc:creator>Jette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 May 2005 16:44:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=444#comment-2075</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Face it, you need all of us. You can&#039;t stop the evolution but you&#039;d better curb it. Otherwise, we&#039;d never be able to understand each other.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Face it, you need all of us. You can&#8217;t stop the evolution but you&#8217;d better curb it. Otherwise, we&#8217;d never be able to understand each other.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: language hat</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2005/english-is-not-latin/comment-page-1#comment-2006</link>
		<dc:creator>language hat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 May 2005 20:56:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=444#comment-2006</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Shawn, none of those books are grammar guides, they&#039;re style guides, of greater or lesser utility (I&#039;m fond of Chicago and Amy, sick of Strunk &amp; White).  The best usage guide on the market is the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0877791325/002-4422332-9692855?v=glance&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;Merriam-Webster Dictionary of English Usage&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt; (also in a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0877796335/002-4422332-9692855?v=glance&quot;&gt;concise edition&lt;/a&gt;), which gives you reams of examples, a sensible historical analysis, and a range of attitudes from various camps and lets you decide for yourself whether you want to use the word or phrase in question.  If you want a thorough description of English grammar, you need to go to Huddleston and Pullum&#039;s monumental &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521431468/002-4422332-9692855?v=glance&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;Cambridge Grammar of the English Language&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;: &quot;This book is a description of the grammar of modern Standard English, providing a detailed account of the principles governing the construction of English words, phrases, clauses, and sentences.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shawn, none of those books are grammar guides, they&#8217;re style guides, of greater or lesser utility (I&#8217;m fond of Chicago and Amy, sick of Strunk &amp; White).  The best usage guide on the market is the <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0877791325/002-4422332-9692855?v=glance"><i>Merriam-Webster Dictionary of English Usage</i></a> (also in a <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0877796335/002-4422332-9692855?v=glance">concise edition</a>), which gives you reams of examples, a sensible historical analysis, and a range of attitudes from various camps and lets you decide for yourself whether you want to use the word or phrase in question.  If you want a thorough description of English grammar, you need to go to Huddleston and Pullum&#8217;s monumental <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521431468/002-4422332-9692855?v=glance"><i>Cambridge Grammar of the English Language</i></a>: &#8220;This book is a description of the grammar of modern Standard English, providing a detailed account of the principles governing the construction of English words, phrases, clauses, and sentences.&#8221;</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Shawn</title>
		<link>http://johnaugust.com/archives/2005/english-is-not-latin/comment-page-1#comment-1995</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 May 2005 16:43:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=444#comment-1995</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Gypsy Boots is right. Having worked as a copyeditor, I can assure you that you will never find an editor who doesn&#039;t know grammar inside and out. Its one thing to abuse grammar for artistic purposes--Faulkner was famous for this. However, it is quite another to abuse the language out of ignorance. It&#039;s easy to spot and makes a writer look unprofessional.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The bugaboos such as split infinitives etc. were introduced in the 18th century to latinize English, as John suggested. While there are still a few sticklers who spout Fowler, for the most part these rules have been discredited. Rules dealing with dangling clauses and comma usage have not, and the people reading what you write know this. While content trumps correctness, why add a black mark to your work by making yourself look like an amateur?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Along the same lines, â€œEats, Shoots &amp; Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuationâ€? is a horrible book to use as a grammar reference. The book is English and from what I&#039;ve read, no changes have been made to the American Edition to reflect the differences between English and American punctuation. The British are grammar conservatives; Americans are not. That&#039;s why you are given a theatre programme in Britain and a theater program here. That&#039;s also why people on the island go out of their way to refer to a given datum or criterion, while data and criteria are more or less accepted as singular here. A Briton would never refer to Bush&#039;s cohorts, but his cohort.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Of course, the biggest difference between British and American punctuation occurs with quotation marks. For example, in British English punctuation can go in or outside of a quotation mark depending on whether the punctuation is part of the quote. But while, &quot;I hate grammar&quot;, may be fine in England, it&#039;s just plain wrong here.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Anyhow this post is entirely too long, but grammar is important and that book is a horrible thing to foist on writers who want to learn it. Better resources are listed below.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;Woe Is I&quot; by Patricia O&#039;Connor
&quot;Strunk and White&quot; Available free on Bartelby.com
&quot;Style: 10 Lessons in Clarity and Grace&quot; by Joseph Williams
&quot;The Copy Editor&#039;s Handbook,&quot; by Amy Einsohn&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And of course the penultimate grammar guide, the Chicago Manual of Style (not for the faint of heart).&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gypsy Boots is right. Having worked as a copyeditor, I can assure you that you will never find an editor who doesn&#8217;t know grammar inside and out. Its one thing to abuse grammar for artistic purposes&#8211;Faulkner was famous for this. However, it is quite another to abuse the language out of ignorance. It&#8217;s easy to spot and makes a writer look unprofessional.</p>

<p>The bugaboos such as split infinitives etc. were introduced in the 18th century to latinize English, as John suggested. While there are still a few sticklers who spout Fowler, for the most part these rules have been discredited. Rules dealing with dangling clauses and comma usage have not, and the people reading what you write know this. While content trumps correctness, why add a black mark to your work by making yourself look like an amateur?</p>

<p>Along the same lines, â€œEats, Shoots &amp; Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuationâ€? is a horrible book to use as a grammar reference. The book is English and from what I&#8217;ve read, no changes have been made to the American Edition to reflect the differences between English and American punctuation. The British are grammar conservatives; Americans are not. That&#8217;s why you are given a theatre programme in Britain and a theater program here. That&#8217;s also why people on the island go out of their way to refer to a given datum or criterion, while data and criteria are more or less accepted as singular here. A Briton would never refer to Bush&#8217;s cohorts, but his cohort.</p>

<p>Of course, the biggest difference between British and American punctuation occurs with quotation marks. For example, in British English punctuation can go in or outside of a quotation mark depending on whether the punctuation is part of the quote. But while, &#8220;I hate grammar&#8221;, may be fine in England, it&#8217;s just plain wrong here.</p>

<p>Anyhow this post is entirely too long, but grammar is important and that book is a horrible thing to foist on writers who want to learn it. Better resources are listed below.</p>

<p>&#8220;Woe Is I&#8221; by Patricia O&#8217;Connor
&#8220;Strunk and White&#8221; Available free on Bartelby.com
&#8220;Style: 10 Lessons in Clarity and Grace&#8221; by Joseph Williams
&#8220;The Copy Editor&#8217;s Handbook,&#8221; by Amy Einsohn</p>

<p>And of course the penultimate grammar guide, the Chicago Manual of Style (not for the faint of heart).</p>]]></content:encoded>
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